973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 30, 2015 9:24:55 GMT -5
I don't know. I know I read once about how some states carved out exceptions. I thought it was made for things like camp counselors and students so they could get experience while working a few hours a week. But I'm sure some business' drive trucks through those exceptions.
DH's family lives near you and every now and then one will say they got a PT job at a local amusement park for extra money but then they quit. They always say their pay was never right. This could be the reason. I will say I know one person who works there and get $7.25 but he works there PT most of the year not just June-Aug. Maybe that is the difference.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 30, 2015 9:28:06 GMT -5
opposed to who? this is precisely my position.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 9:31:06 GMT -5
Knoebals?
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 30, 2015 9:34:37 GMT -5
Yes but some have worked at Hershey and Dorney Park also.
I don't know about the others but Knoebals is wicked hard on their employees. A couple of people said those people who park cars will be out in the sun for 10-12 hours with only one lunch and maybe a potty break. One other person said if his ride got slow they would hand him a mop bucket and cleaning supplies and make him scrub the bathroom.
While clean bathrooms are a good thing, they said it was the hardest they had ever worked in their life and for the least amount imaginable.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 25, 2015 13:14:19 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 17:20:24 GMT -5
Shouldn't that be "hasn't happened yet"? I don't believe anyone said the "meltdown" would be instantaneous. I know I didn't.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 26, 2015 9:38:01 GMT -5
actually, i kind of assumed immediate, truthfully. people said that businesses would move out, leaving an urban wasteland devoid of low end restaurants.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 18:59:53 GMT -5
It'll take time. Businesses will have to crash first. That won't happen until their suppliers up their costs on top of the increase in wages.... and it won't happen until the businesses burn through their reserves.
I look at it being closer to two to three (maybe 5 at the outset) years before one of three things happens... businesses close... or... this new $15/hour can buy what $7.25/hour used to buy (making the wage increase basically a moot point)... or... this new $15/hour can't buy as much as what $7.25 used to buy (making the working poor actually WORSE off).
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 26, 2015 19:59:57 GMT -5
It'll take time. Businesses will have to crash first. That won't happen until their suppliers up their costs on top of the increase in wages.... and it won't happen until the businesses burn through their reserves. I look at it being closer to two to three (maybe 5 at the outset) years before one of three things happens... businesses close... or... this new $15/hour can buy what $7.25/hour used to buy (making the wage increase basically a moot point)... or... this new $15/hour can't buy as much as what $7.25 used to buy (making the working poor actually WORSE off). if it were me, i would IMMEDIATELY raise prices. anyone who fails to do so should really go into the performing arts or something else where people routinely undervalue their skills and worth. i am not sure how long ago SF adopted $10.75/hr- but it seems like it has been a while. perhaps we could see if it has been five years?
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 26, 2015 21:17:12 GMT -5
www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/10/23/remember_dan_price_of_gravity_payments_who_gave_his_employees_a_70_000_minimum.htmlStill waiting for that failure Limbaugh was hoping for. "Six months after Price's announcement, Gravity has defied doubters. Revenue is growing at double the previous rate. Profits have also doubled. Gravity did lose a few customers: Some objected to what seemed like a political statement that put pressure on them to raise their own wages; others feared price hikes or service cutbacks. But media reports suggesting that panicked customers were fleeing have proved false. In fact, Gravity's customer retention rate rose from 91 to 95 percent in the second quarter." And there is this: ny.eater.com/2015/10/14/9517747/danny-meyer-no-tipping-restaurants"The American system of tipping is awkward for all parties involved: restaurant patrons are expected to have the expertise to motivate and properly remunerate service professionals; servers are expected to please up to 1,000 different employers (for most of us, one boss is enough!); and restaurateurs surrender their use of compensation as an appropriate tool to reward merit and promote excellence … Imagine, if to prompt better service from your shoe salesman, you had to tip on the cost of your shoes, factoring in your perception of his shoe knowledge and the number of trips he took to the stockroom in search of your size. As a customer, isn’t it less complicated that the service he performs is included in the price of your shoes?" Old quote but he is implementing it now- wages up, tips out. Sounds good to me.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 26, 2015 21:28:04 GMT -5
It'll take time. Businesses will have to crash first. That won't happen until their suppliers up their costs on top of the increase in wages.... and it won't happen until the businesses burn through their reserves. I look at it being closer to two to three (maybe 5 at the outset) years before one of three things happens... businesses close... or... this new $15/hour can buy what $7.25/hour used to buy (making the wage increase basically a moot point)... or... this new $15/hour can't buy as much as what $7.25 used to buy (making the working poor actually WORSE off). So your sense of business is that it is better to go under than raise prices? If so you should. It amazes me that in this modern world of business somehow prices are sacrosanct. You are yet again looking at things in a linear fashion which is 100% wrong. Proven wrong. Easily. But for the fun of it what you suggest is that wage relationships are set in stone, that there is some invisible 'set point' in the market that necessitates so many people remain poor, middle class, and rich- and that any attempt to change that is folly. AKA the myth that if I am a poor worker doubling my wage doubles my expenses so no net gain is possible. If less people believed that lie maybe we could make some progress.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 22:09:10 GMT -5
It'll take time. Businesses will have to crash first. That won't happen until their suppliers up their costs on top of the increase in wages.... and it won't happen until the businesses burn through their reserves. I look at it being closer to two to three (maybe 5 at the outset) years before one of three things happens... businesses close... or... this new $15/hour can buy what $7.25/hour used to buy (making the wage increase basically a moot point)... or... this new $15/hour can't buy as much as what $7.25 used to buy (making the working poor actually WORSE off). So your sense of business is that it is better to go under than raise prices? If so you should. It amazes me that in this modern world of business somehow prices are sacrosanct. You are yet again looking at things in a linear fashion which is 100% wrong. Proven wrong. Easily. But for the fun of it what you suggest is that wage relationships are set in stone, that there is some invisible 'set point' in the market that necessitates so many people remain poor, middle class, and rich- and that any attempt to change that is folly. AKA the myth that if I am a poor worker doubling my wage doubles my expenses so no net gain is possible. If less people believed that lie maybe we could make some progress. No. That's not my "sense of business"... it's my opinion (and experience) of reality. Every time there has been an increase in minimum wage, businesses have gone out of business (because they raised their prices, but the public didn't accept their higher prices), or if they survived, they only did so because the public accepted their new, higher prices. Higher prices which basically cancelled out any gain from the wage increase.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 27, 2015 6:54:48 GMT -5
So your sense of business is that it is better to go under than raise prices? If so you should. It amazes me that in this modern world of business somehow prices are sacrosanct. You are yet again looking at things in a linear fashion which is 100% wrong. Proven wrong. Easily. But for the fun of it what you suggest is that wage relationships are set in stone, that there is some invisible 'set point' in the market that necessitates so many people remain poor, middle class, and rich- and that any attempt to change that is folly. AKA the myth that if I am a poor worker doubling my wage doubles my expenses so no net gain is possible. If less people believed that lie maybe we could make some progress. No. That's not my "sense of business"... it's my opinion (and experience) of reality. Every time there has been an increase in minimum wage, businesses have gone out of business (because they raised their prices, but the public didn't accept their higher prices), or if they survived, they only did so because the public accepted their new, higher prices. Higher prices which basically cancelled out any gain from the wage increase. that's interesting, because there is little evidence that increasing FMW has any impact on employment. must be a Tennessee thing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 18:05:06 GMT -5
No. That's not my "sense of business"... it's my opinion (and experience) of reality. Every time there has been an increase in minimum wage, businesses have gone out of business (because they raised their prices, but the public didn't accept their higher prices), or if they survived, they only did so because the public accepted their new, higher prices. Higher prices which basically cancelled out any gain from the wage increase. that's interesting, because there is little evidence that increasing FMW has any impact on employment. must be a Tennessee thing. LOL... nope. Not "a Tennessee thing". There hasn't been a minimum wage increase since I've lived here. My personal experiences have been in Florida and South Carolina. And remember... it's not JUST employment that's at risk. it's ALSO the surviving businesses raise their prices to basically offset any benefit of getting the increase. Many places may not lose any business at all. In those places though, the increase in prices to the consumer always offset any gain in income (or make the realized difference actually WORSE).
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 27, 2015 20:01:02 GMT -5
HEADLINE "Papa Johns goes out of business after raising the average price of a pizza 25 cents in order to raise wages and implement a healthcare plan" or maybe "McDonalds eliminates the dollar menu- franchisees forced to file for bankruptcy" My opinion is this- if your business is so dependent on a particular price and labor cost that you cannot deal with a FMW increase or healthcare mandate- then it is a borderline failure already. I learned a long time ago when I ran my own small business that competing for the lowest common denominator is a losing strategy- What works is upping your game- hiring better people- paying more and charging more. There are customers I do not want- and I will happily run them off to competitors who charge less and run their low wage, high turnover kingdoms. Like Walmart or McDonalds
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 20:46:33 GMT -5
HEADLINE "Papa Johns goes out of business after raising the average price of a pizza 25 cents in order to raise wages and implement a healthcare plan" or maybe "McDonalds eliminates the dollar menu- franchisees forced to file for bankruptcy" My opinion is this- if your business is so dependent on a particular price and labor cost that you cannot deal with a FMW increase or healthcare mandate- then it is a borderline failure already. I learned a long time ago when I ran my own small business that competing for the lowest common denominator is a losing strategy- What works is upping your game- hiring better people- paying more and charging more. There are customers I do not want- and I will happily run them off to competitors who charge less and run their low wage, high turnover kingdoms. Like Walmart or McDonalds It's not the "raising 25 cents" I'd be worried about... it's the "raising $2.50" that concerns me. Places removing "dollar menus" should worry you (and everyone) though... lots of people ONLY shop the dollar stuff. And isn't removing the dollar menu one step in exactly one of the things I mentioned anyway... "raising prices to the point that the new higher wage has the same (or less) purchasing power that the old wage did"? If we just want to maintain the status quo... why bother raising wages? Are we looking to end up with dollars having the same purchasing power as the Japanese Yen? Their "base currency" (the Yen) can buy the following: Restaurants (average)Meal, Inexpensive Restaurant: 800.00 ¥ Meal for 2 People, Mid-range Restaurant, Three-course: 4,000.00 ¥ McMeal at McDonalds (or Equivalent Combo Meal): 650.00 ¥ Domestic Beer (0.5 liter draught): 380.00 ¥ Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle): 500.00 ¥ Cappuccino (regular): 371.17 ¥ Coke/Pepsi (0.33 liter bottle): 133.02 ¥ Water (0.33 liter bottle): 109.06 ¥ Markets [Edit] (average)Milk (regular), (1 gallon): 693.62 ¥ Loaf of Fresh White Bread (1 lb): 149.22 ¥ Rice (white), (1 lb): 207.93 ¥ Eggs (12): 221.96 ¥ Local Cheese (1 lb): 840.95 ¥ Chicken Breasts (Boneless, Skinless), (1 lb): 369.59 ¥ Beef Round (1 lb) (or Equivalent Back Leg Red Meat): 1,165.73 ¥ Apples (1 lb): 265.43 ¥ Banana (1 lb): 190.90 ¥ Oranges (1 lb): 220.71 ¥ Tomato (1 lb): 320.85 ¥ Potato (1 lb): 154.71 ¥ Onion (1 lb): 192.66 ¥ Lettuce (1 head): 178.44 ¥ Water (1.5 liter bottle): 141.55 ¥ Bottle of Wine (Mid-Range): 1,300.00 ¥ Domestic Beer (0.5 liter bottle): 275.43 ¥ Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle): 364.19 ¥ Pack of Cigarettes (Marlboro): 450.00 ¥ SourceIs that what anyone wants here? $133 dollar Coke/Pepsi? $4,000 meal out? (talk about expensive dates! for that she'd better "put out!") $693 gallon of milk? I'm not saying $15 an hour will cause that. But $15 will be followed (sooner or later) with $20... then $30... then $50... and so on, and so forth. So that's exactly where we are headed.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 27, 2015 20:58:16 GMT -5
i am quite familiar with restaurant economics. although their study is flawed, and understates the price impacts of raising the base wage, it is well studied here: www.marketwatch.com/story/raising-fast-food-hourly-wages-to-15-would-raise-prices-by-4-study-finds-2015-07-28this is actually a good case for raising FMW, in that the price impacts are minimal (about 10%), and yet, if all FMW employers do it, then they will get no competitive disadvantage, in that there is no place to buy cheaper food if food prices increase nationally (unless you live near the border in Niagra or San Diego, and think that making a day trip to Canada or Mexico is a fun cheap outing). moreover, the research has been done on employment and inflation, and the impacts are minimal. the price sensitivity is less than 5% in the general economy (since so few employers pay FMW) for every 100% FMW increases. i have never advocated a 100% increase in FMW. but the more i read the horror stories about the devastating impacts on the economy, the more i want to see it happen, just to prove to everyone how wrong that idea is.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Oct 27, 2015 21:07:33 GMT -5
I'd rather them just raise the minimum wage personally; it's better than just underpaying these guys and having them all get gov't assistance anyways. I used to have a much different opinion, but it's kind of a sham that these companies can get away with underpaying employees and then having the rest of us pick up their slack. I'm speaking as a small business owner as well...realistically, these guys can all raise the price of their products to cover any increase in labor costs.
On the topic of the self-checkouts, all of the grocery stores in my area have done away with them. They tell us it was because of they wanted to offer personalized service, but I think they were getting totally ripped off by people putting stuff in carts and not paying for it. Anything they were saving was getting eaten up by a loss elsewhere.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 27, 2015 21:10:36 GMT -5
I'd rather them just raise the minimum wage personally; it's better than just underpaying these guys and having them all get gov't assistance anyways. I used to have a much different opinion, but it's kind of a sham that these companies can get away with underpaying employees and then having the rest of us pick up their slack. I'm speaking as a small business owner as well...realistically, these guys can all raise the price of their products to cover any increase in labor costs. On the topic of the self-checkouts, all of the grocery stores in my area have done away with them. They tell us it was because of they wanted to offer personalized service, but I think they were getting totally ripped off by people putting stuff in carts and not paying for it. Anything they were saving was getting eaten up by a loss elsewhere. this is actually a libertarian argument, imo. there are two options in this economy, not three. one is to pay a wage sufficient that no WORKING PERSON qualifies for benefits. the other is to do what we do, and have millions on the dole. the third option, so often proclaimed, is a recipe for slums like Sao Paulo- to consign some sizable fraction of our population to serfdom, and let them live and die horribly. this long ago was thought unthinkable in the richest nation on Earth, but if you listen carefully, you can actually hear people talking like this these days.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 27, 2015 21:13:34 GMT -5
I'm not saying $15 an hour will cause that. But $15 will be followed (sooner or later) with $20... then $30... then $50... and so on, and so forth. So that's exactly where we are headed. we are not even getting $15/hr, except in small pockets of the US, imo. not for a long, long time.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Oct 28, 2015 11:20:39 GMT -5
But $15 will be followed (sooner or later) with $20... then $30... then $50... and so on, and so forth. So that's exactly where we are headed.
A gain I will ask the question ...... $15 per hour 'living wage' for how large a family? If a person wants more than a low ENTRY wage, they need to get the training so they are worth more than the entry wage. Personal responsibility
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 28, 2015 11:23:41 GMT -5
But $15 will be followed (sooner or later) with $20... then $30... then $50... and so on, and so forth. So that's exactly where we are headed.
A gain I will ask the question ...... $15 per hour 'living wage' for how large a family? If a person wants more than a low ENTRY wage, they need to get the training so they are worth more than the entry wage. Personal responsibility i think i answered this a while back: family of one. edit: i don't buy the argument that this is a slippery slope. FMW has been around since the 40's, and yet it is sitting at $7.25
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 17:58:41 GMT -5
But $15 will be followed (sooner or later) with $20... then $30... then $50... and so on, and so forth. So that's exactly where we are headed.
A gain I will ask the question ...... $15 per hour 'living wage' for how large a family? If a person wants more than a low ENTRY wage, they need to get the training so they are worth more than the entry wage. Personal responsibility i think i answered this a while back: family of one. edit: i don't buy the argument that this is a slippery slope. FMW has been around since the 40's, and yet it is sitting at $7.25 But it hasn't been $7.25 since the 40's... In 1938 (when it began) it was $0.25/hour. In 1950 it jumped all the way up to $0.75/hour. It made it all the way to $1.00/hour in 1956. (I understand that you probably realize this... but, to the unknowing observer, it could appear that your statement says it's been $7.25 since the 40's)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 18:32:51 GMT -5
In 1938 a pound of hamburger meat was about $0.13... just under half of the then minimum wage of $0.25/hour. (.25 / .13 = 1.923... so .13 goes into .25... 1.923 times)
In 2015 (in January) a pound of hamburger meat was $4.235... quite a bit more than half of the current minimum wage of $7.25. (7.25 / 4.235 = 1.712... so 4.235 goes into 7.25 only 1.712 times)
Hamburger was actually CHEAPER (by the hours of work needed to purchase it) when minimum wage was $0.25
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 28, 2015 18:42:53 GMT -5
i think i answered this a while back: family of one. edit: i don't buy the argument that this is a slippery slope. FMW has been around since the 40's, and yet it is sitting at $7.25 But it hasn't been $7.25 since the 40's... In 1938 (when it began) it was $0.25/hour. In 1950 it jumped all the way up to $0.75/hour. It made it all the way to $1.00/hour in 1956. (I understand that you probably realize this... but, to the unknowing observer, it could appear that your statement says it's been $7.25 since the 40's) adjusted for inflation, it has not risen since 1973.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 28, 2015 18:43:42 GMT -5
In 1938 a pound of hamburger meat was about $0.13... just under half of the then minimum wage of $0.25/hour. (.25 / .13 = 1.923... so .13 goes into .25... 1.923 times) In 2015 (in January) a pound of hamburger meat was $4.235... quite a bit more than half of the current minimum wage of $7.25. (7.25 / 4.235 = 1.712... so 4.235 goes into 7.25 only 1.712 times) Hamburger was actually CHEAPER (by the hours of work needed to purchase it) when minimum wage was $0.25 precisely. the lower class has been losing ground for almost two generations.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 19:24:09 GMT -5
In 1938 a pound of hamburger meat was about $0.13... just under half of the then minimum wage of $0.25/hour. (.25 / .13 = 1.923... so .13 goes into .25... 1.923 times) In 2015 (in January) a pound of hamburger meat was $4.235... quite a bit more than half of the current minimum wage of $7.25. (7.25 / 4.235 = 1.712... so 4.235 goes into 7.25 only 1.712 times) Hamburger was actually CHEAPER (by the hours of work needed to purchase it) when minimum wage was $0.25 precisely. the lower class has been losing ground for almost two generations. So the solution is to raise the minimum wage so the lower class can lose even more ground? How does that even make any sense?
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 28, 2015 19:40:20 GMT -5
In 1938 a pound of hamburger meat was about $0.13... just under half of the then minimum wage of $0.25/hour. (.25 / .13 = 1.923... so .13 goes into .25... 1.923 times) In 2015 (in January) a pound of hamburger meat was $4.235... quite a bit more than half of the current minimum wage of $7.25. (7.25 / 4.235 = 1.712... so 4.235 goes into 7.25 only 1.712 times) Hamburger was actually CHEAPER (by the hours of work needed to purchase it) when minimum wage was $0.25 Exactly. You just tanked your own argument though
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 28, 2015 19:43:19 GMT -5
precisely. the lower class has been losing ground for almost two generations. So the solution is to raise the minimum wage so the lower class can lose even more ground? How does that even make any sense? no, the solution is actually to index FMW to inflation. you seem to be operating under the impression that a 10% increase in FMW = 10% inflation in the general economy. that is not true at all. it is less than 1/10th of the increase. in other words, if you are making FMW, and you get a 100% increase in pay, you would get a net increase of 90%, all other things remaining the same. i have explained this over and over and over again, so either you are ignoring it, or you simply don't believe it. not my problem from here on out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 20:46:47 GMT -5
In 1938 a pound of hamburger meat was about $0.13... just under half of the then minimum wage of $0.25/hour. (.25 / .13 = 1.923... so .13 goes into .25... 1.923 times) In 2015 (in January) a pound of hamburger meat was $4.235... quite a bit more than half of the current minimum wage of $7.25. (7.25 / 4.235 = 1.712... so 4.235 goes into 7.25 only 1.712 times) Hamburger was actually CHEAPER (by the hours of work needed to purchase it) when minimum wage was $0.25 Exactly. You just tanked your own argument though Actually I didn't. I said (very clearly, I might add): " or... this new $15/hour can buy what $7.25/hour used to buy (making the wage increase basically a moot point)... or... this new $15/hour can't buy as much as what $7.25 used to buy (making the working poor actually WORSE off)." Did you miss the "or" and everything that followed it? I think I confirmed the third option (the one after the SECOND "or") pretty clearly.
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