973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 24, 2015 10:09:36 GMT -5
Great now I make less than a fast food worker in NYC. No I don't plan on moving . I am betting that even at $15/hr you aren't going to get very far in NYC. I'm not against raising minimum wage. The thing is that it's still MINIMUM wage. It'd certainly be helpful to raise it but you're still at the bottom of the wage ladder. Eventually you are going to be right back where you were over time. At some point I am assuming it'd hit a ceiling, you can't keep raising minmum wage forever. You'll either have to obtain new skills to move up a rung or accept you're still making MW even if it's $15-$20/hr. I agree with you that it is just the min, but it used to be a basic amount that against expenses bought a certain amount of stuff. As the stuff got higher and yet min wage didn't that salary bought less and less stuff. This is also true of other wage earners even if they make a lot more. It just is very stark for someone already living on the edge with so little funds to begin with. On balance I would rather make $10 in Ne than $15 in NYC, SF or Seattle. That is probably also a good reason for min wage to be different places. Although I think the min wage does need to keep raising forever. I guess we could get to a Star Trek place where no money is needed ,but otherwise min wage needs to keep going up as long as every thing else keeps going up.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 24, 2015 10:10:57 GMT -5
The mandate should apply to all workers in fast-food restaurants that are part of chains with at least 30 outlets, the board said. They defined fast food as food and drinks served at counters where customers pay before eating and can take their food with them if they choose.
N.Y. Times
It isn't clear whether that 30 outlets number is in state or nationwide, I've seen references both ways. The article makes it clear that Cuomo was pushing for a general minimum wage hike, but couldn't get it thru state lawmakers, so settled for this, assuming it would expand to everyone, one way or another.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Jul 24, 2015 10:12:14 GMT -5
The law of unintended consequences.....
I can picture a "rush" to get those $15.00 jobs. Depending on just how the catorgorize fast food- why would you work at Panera or some other "convience" dining place or a movie theater when you can work at Mc D's for more money. Where the fast food job was a starting place, if I'm an owner I now pick only the cream of the crop and I have high expectations of what that employee be able to do. Where I might have tolerated an order mistake before, I certainly wouldn't if I'm paying them that kind of money.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 24, 2015 10:47:10 GMT -5
I agree with you that it is just the min, but it used to be a basic amount that against expenses bought a certain amount of stuff
Like i said I am not against raising minimum wage. I just think people don't understand that $15/hr is still going to be minimum wage. You just made the number attached to the label higher.
It will get you farther but not as far as people seem to think it will. Eventually things will adjust accordingly and you'll probably be close to the same spot you are in right now only making $15/hr instead of $7.50-$9.00/hr.
I agree it should be more than what I was making back in 2004. It just strikes me that people settled on $15/hr-$20/hr b/c they think that is the magical number that will solve all their problems.
I am interested to see how this all shakes out.
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Jul 24, 2015 11:13:39 GMT -5
I'm puzzled by the economics of the $15 min. wage. If $15 is the hourly wage for minimally skilled labour, then logically if I have a skills that rest just above that, then I'm not going to want to work for $15 an hour, I'd want to work for $20 and so on.
Then as wages go up, there is higher demand for consumer goods, so prices go up and you are back in the same boat as before with not enough money to cover necessities at minimum wage.
Would it not make more sense to ask why there are people trying to make a living working minimum wage and address those issues by instead of giving the difference between old and new minimum wage to employees, it is contributed to a fund which is distributed according to needs. Like, if you are working minimum wage job because of lack of education, then maybe some subsidized education is what you need. Or if you have difficulty finding better employment because you cannot find childcare, then a childcare subsidy. That might be too much of a socialist idea for US, but it at least attempts to solve the issue of why people are working minimum wage jobs.
To me minimum wage jobs in fast food or whatever are for teenagers and older people just looking for something to do not to attempt to support a family on.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 24, 2015 12:00:46 GMT -5
I'm puzzled by the economics of the $15 min. wage. If $15 is the hourly wage for minimally skilled labour, then logically if I have a skills that rest just above that, then I'm not going to want to work for $15 an hour, I'd want to work for $20 and so on
Yeah that is what I was thinking too. At some point you are going to have to decide if you want to keep coasting on minimum wage or do something to move up to the next wage rung.
You can't keep raising it until it's $20/hr+ and not see some sort of economic consequences I'd think.
Again not against raising minimum wage I am just REALLY curious how they decided $15/hr was enough and what are they going to do when it's realized that isn't going ot go as far as they think over time? Especially in places like NYC and Seattle.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 24, 2015 12:07:38 GMT -5
I'm puzzled by the economics of the $15 min. wage. If $15 is the hourly wage for minimally skilled labour, then logically if I have a skills that rest just above that, then I'm not going to want to work for $15 an hour, I'd want to work for $20 and so on. Then as wages go up, there is higher demand for consumer goods, so prices go up and you are back in the same boat as before with not enough money to cover necessities at minimum wage. Would it not make more sense to ask why there are people trying to make a living working minimum wage and address those issues by instead of giving the difference between old and new minimum wage to employees, it is contributed to a fund which is distributed according to needs. Like, if you are working minimum wage job because of lack of education, then maybe some subsidized education is what you need. Or if you have difficulty finding better employment because you cannot find childcare, then a childcare subsidy. That might be too much of a socialist idea for US, but it at least attempts to solve the issue of why people are working minimum wage jobs. To me minimum wage jobs in fast food or whatever are for teenagers and older people just looking for something to do not to attempt to support a family on. And some areas are just not the place to live if you aren't wealthy. I am coming to believe we live in one of those places. There just aren't a lot of jobs that pay decently anymore. The choices are low end min wage jobs and business owner. The middle has been eroded to the point of almost looking weird when I tell people where I work. They are literally surprised to find regular business' still around. The rest of the people work in service industries. The vast majority of places are geared to higher hours and number of employees in the summer. During the winter employees get laid off or reduced hours. And this is on top of being paid min wage or just a bit above. Not the kind of place you want your kids staying after they grow up knowing that.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jul 24, 2015 13:10:34 GMT -5
I was against raising minimum wage to 15 entirely at first but if you spread it over 5 years not as bad and it needs to go up in HCOL areas so I am less against it. Seattle was already over $9 and we were finding people with degrees in library science or other skills who would work for 12-15 and very experienced people who made a career at $16-18. We generally hired entry level receptionist at about $15 even if they wanted 12-15 because we weren't hiring children on first jobs and with rent averaging 1,200 they could barely support themselves living almost an hour out on $15. I still don't think that should be the minimum for the teens and marginal people but for a 45 year old divorced woman it isn't too much. My niece is making $15.06 after 15 years as a housewife and no prior skilled work but she is a responsible adult. She got a condo this week and paid cash but with monthly fees and caring for her SS and feeding college boy if he is home she won't have a lot of extra money. When minimum wage goes up a dollar she won't get raises but when it gets to 15 she should hopefully by 2020 she will be getting more than $15.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jul 24, 2015 21:10:10 GMT -5
I am interested to see how this all shakes out.
I saw an article yesterday (I think) that some McDs cashiers somewhere are being replaced by kiosks and the cashiering jobs are being eliminated.
Higher wages mean less personnel. That's what unions did to the auto industry. Higher wages = more robotics.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 24, 2015 23:11:27 GMT -5
As a customer I was meh about them but if I have to work there I HATE them.
In theory it would be fine for people who need an express line with not special things like coupons, rain checks or actual checks and a huge cartful of groceries. I can't begin to describe all the idiots who try and go through self check out and insist they don't need any help. I am now at the point where I let them wait a little longer and help other people. I hope that eventually they will learn to just use a regular line.
And the reason stores are getting rid of them is because people rob the stores blind in them. It is a nightmare trying to police all 4 or 6 lines when it is busy and I know thieves use them because they know it.
While I know there are some normal honest people who do use them it just doesn't make up for all the nonsense that goes on. I can't wait till they take them out and put in some more express lines instead.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 25, 2015 12:23:55 GMT -5
I agree with you that it is just the min, but it used to be a basic amount that against expenses bought a certain amount of stuff
Like i said I am not against raising minimum wage. I just think people don't understand that $15/hr is still going to be minimum wage. You just made the number attached to the label higher. It will get you farther but not as far as people seem to think it will. Eventually things will adjust accordingly and you'll probably be close to the same spot you are in right now only making $15/hr instead of $7.50-$9.00/hr. I agree it should be more than what I was making back in 2004. It just strikes me that people settled on $15/hr-$20/hr b/c they think that is the magical number that will solve all their problems. I am interested to see how this all shakes out. It does not work out. Russia tried it. Greece tried it. See how it worked for them?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 18:54:59 GMT -5
When it comes to self check-outs in stores... I'll wait in line as long as it takes for a "Regular" one to either be available or another one open up (ETA: this assumes there is already at least ONE "Real Person run" one open).
No joke. I was at a Wal-Mart (note the old, hyphenated spelling) when they had just gotten their first ones set up several years ago. I did my shopping and had a pretty full cart. No lines open EXCEPT the 4 "self check-out" lines. I saw a manager walking by and asked which register was open, he pointed to them (the "self check-out" ones), and I said, "no, a register with a person", he said "I'm sorry we don't have any open at the moment". I said "I'm sorry too, could you have someone put the stuff in this cart back?" and then I walked out of the store.
I REFUSE to use them.
ETA: the Wal-Mart episode happened at like 4AM, in a very rural area, so it's not like they were exactly "super busy"...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 19:03:26 GMT -5
We have 2-6 person self checkouts and they're always in use. One person mans each area so they have two people working instead of twelve. That's how ours are too. I don't like them much because it stops you too often for weight not registering in the bag or ID check for the booze and all that. So it is a pain in the neck. I will usually only go through self check when I have a couple easy items and the other lines are long.
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Jul 26, 2015 5:19:50 GMT -5
<p>More unintended consequences of a $15/hr min wage:</p><p><br></p><p>$15/hr is DOUBLE the current federal minimum wage (which IMHO, needs to be updated somewhat and indexed). Not only will there be MORE automation but sprices WILL go up significantly. Labor is generally 50-80% of a business's overhead. Thus there will be significant price increases and REAL buying power remains the same or even gets worse. </p>
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jul 26, 2015 7:07:00 GMT -5
Self check-out thingies might work in a grocery store but they will never work in a fast food place. People are picky:"hold the mustard!", "just a bit of mayo!", "one slice of onion and only half a bunn, add relish but take the hot sauce!"... you get the point! Let's see a machine understanding that! Yeah, sure they work when you walk in and simply order " a big number six please!" I'm prety sure that these machines are quite costly too and their maintenance is expensive also.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jul 26, 2015 7:27:39 GMT -5
I like them just fine. As others have said, they are great at the sandwich/breakfast counter at Wawa- and who doesn't love wawa. The machine has no problem customizing an order. I also use the check-out kiosks in the grocery store, lowes, Walmart, and other places- and loves those too. In fact, I get annoyed when there isn't a self-check out. Entering in a food order is much less complicated then scanning, bagging and paying for groceries/store items.
I saw a sign that they are coming to my local Panera Bread and I look forward to the change. ATMs were a good thing and this is too.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 26, 2015 7:46:27 GMT -5
It's a shame that because some losers decided working fast food should be a "career" instead of what it was meant to be, now students and others who want/need part time work, won't get it. Why should anyone hire a novice worker for a high hourly wage when they can get a better qualified worker?
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jul 26, 2015 8:38:36 GMT -5
I noticed in my neighborhood few teenagers and college students returning for the summer have jobs. Most of them babysit. At first I just thought they were lazy or weren't willing to work for minimum wage b/c they can get $12-$15/hour babysitting, but maybe it's because the part-time jobs are hard to find. An interesting shift from my youth where most of my friends, my siblings and I had jobs at 16 working fastfood, bagging groceries, amusement parks, movie theaters and a few who were lucky enough to score a mall job. When I go to the same amusement park I worked at from 16-19, there are very few teenagers working. The entire park was run by 16-20 year olds when I worked there. Don't know, just an observation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 9:21:18 GMT -5
And that horatio / Hickle is how it is done :-) what does that mean?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 26, 2015 9:25:33 GMT -5
Some areas just for the summer work is harder to find than others. My area, the kids are too rich to have to work. They spend their summers in Europe.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Jul 26, 2015 10:53:43 GMT -5
And that horatio / Hickle is how it is done :-) what does that mean? Reference to your other post on how to get a thread have a lot of responses.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2015 13:28:09 GMT -5
Companies can quit serving fast food. First define fast food then change so you don't fit definition. Say fast food is where you order at the counter then pay and get your food, we will have you order at counter then food brought to you and pay at the table or have all back to the old lunch counter system with some scattered tables. So what about grocery store deli service where you can buy fried chicken or Chinese food ready to eat is that fast food? Is pizza fast food if you need to wait 15 minutes? What about raw pizza? The trouble with all these city laws is they are only in expensive cities and take many years to come into effect. Seattle has one for all minimum wage workers but a little slower for some small businesses still will take years. Our minimum was already higher over 9 and now I think 10. Companies are starting to gear up to drop employees. My car wash is down to one employee. Pay at a machine, machine does the washing the employee points at the place to put the car, machine says to put in park and not use brakes and lights tell you when you can go. They used to have 2-3 employees who would sell you services, up sell car washes, hit the bird droppings with a brush, now $6 instead of $5 for less service. A small McDonald in a store only had 2 employees one to take the money and the other made the food. Burgers were cooked in a machine not on an open grill, automation as much as they can to cut labor. We could cut the one who takes the money if you had a machine to order from and required debit or credit cards or the machine took cash. i think cutting back on service is penny wise and pound foolish. again, rather than kicking and screaming, why not just charge more? it really is not that hard to do. we have a local burger establishment that uses fresh, local ingredients, pays their employees well, and charges about $10 for a burger. the place is packed constantly. if you stop bottom feeding, and find your niche, you can do just fine in the restaurant business. the problem, of course, is that many of these franchisees are restricted in what they can do, and are bottom feeders. terrible combination. edit: i just called in an order. three burgers, tax and tip was $35. and yes, it was delicious.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2015 13:31:18 GMT -5
I agree with you that it is just the min, but it used to be a basic amount that against expenses bought a certain amount of stuff
Like i said I am not against raising minimum wage. I just think people don't understand that $15/hr is still going to be minimum wage. You just made the number attached to the label higher. It will get you farther but not as far as people seem to think it will. Eventually things will adjust accordingly and you'll probably be close to the same spot you are in right now only making $15/hr instead of $7.50-$9.00/hr. I agree it should be more than what I was making back in 2004. It just strikes me that people settled on $15/hr-$20/hr b/c they think that is the magical number that will solve all their problems. I am interested to see how this all shakes out. It does not work out. Russia tried it. Greece tried it. See how it worked for them? what is this "IT" that you are saying these countries have tried? the monthly minimum wage in Russia is 107E. the MMW in Greece is 634E. the latter equates to $4/hr
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2015 13:44:45 GMT -5
More unintended consequences of a $15/hr min wage:
$15/hr is DOUBLE the current federal minimum wage (which IMHO, needs to be updated somewhat and indexed). Not only will there be MORE automation but sprices WILL go up significantly. Labor is generally 50-80% of a business's overhead. Thus there will be significant price increases and REAL buying power remains the same or even gets worse. labor is generally NOT 50-80% of a businesses overhead, marv. i have quite a few businesses. in the SERVICE businesses, labor is indeed a very heavy constituent- near, if not IN the range you said. however, in manufacturing and food service, the numbers are nowhere even close to what you are saying here. i have never had a year where labor was over 25% of revenue in my manufacturing business. if you add in owner pay, it is still under 50%. a typical grocery store is about 12-13% on a revenue basis, including owner pay. gas stations? around 6%, including owner pay. i can't think of a retail example that is over 30%, including owner pay. if we are talking about food service places, they are generally under 50% including owner pay. in an analysis done by the Heritage foundation, the projected increase in food prices would be 10% for a 100% pay increase. that indicated sensitivity (10%) tells me two things: 1) that not all people in food service are making minimum wage 2) that those that are a proportionately low part of cost (about 10% of revenue)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2015 13:48:04 GMT -5
Self check-out thingies might work in a grocery store but they will never work in a fast food place. People are picky:"hold the mustard!", "just a bit of mayo!", "one slice of onion and only half a bunn, add relish but take the hot sauce!"... you get the point! Let's see a machine understanding that! Yeah, sure they work when you walk in and simply order " a big number six please!" I'm prety sure that these machines are quite costly too and their maintenance is expensive also. this is why i consider most of this "ass talk". if the machines cost more to purchase and maintain than an employee, they will NEVER buy them. actually, they might not buy them anyway, if they have no credit. and then, you have your customer profile. if i am taking someone out to lunch, we are not going to use a kiosk to buy- sorry. it is just never going to happen. so this is only going to work in certain places. otherwise, the loss of business is going to impact the enterprise possibly more than the cost savings.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2015 13:50:08 GMT -5
I like them just fine. As others have said, they are great at the sandwich/breakfast counter at Wawa- and who doesn't love wawa. The machine has no problem customizing an order. I also use the check-out kiosks in the grocery store, lowes, Walmart, and other places- and loves those too. In fact, I get annoyed when there isn't a self-check out. Entering in a food order is much less complicated then scanning, bagging and paying for groceries/store items.
I saw a sign that they are coming to my local Panera Bread and I look forward to the change. ATMs were a good thing and this is too. our bank recently told us that they were cutting back on staff, and we would have to use the ATM's more. i changed banks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 15:26:33 GMT -5
the dunkin donut ceo said $15 an hour is outrageous pay. He makes $4,889 an hour. I think neither are based on sound economics
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 26, 2015 17:22:52 GMT -5
I like it. Now if we can just get the robots to cook the food too, then I wouldn't get my order screwed up.
Machines have been replacing people for decades. This is nothing new. Sorry. It's not you. Just... Yours is the only post not 'in denial' so to speak. I was reading through the litany of "self-serve is too hard", "I don't like self-serve", "robots are hard to maintain" puppies and rainbows, and lo here is Angel bucking the trend and embracing reality. And then at the end: "Machines have been replacing people for decades. This is nothing new." Or, alternatively translated, "...but, we can still enjoy our puppies and rainbows!" I hate to break it to everyone, but: yes, this is new; yes, it is a problem; and no, the 15 minimum-waging employees displaced by these terminals will not all find jobs as 15 skilled terminal maintenance technicians. You might need one or two such technicians. From a general productivity standpoint, automation is never a bad thing. From a rich-getting-richer-poor-getting-poorer standpoint, an evaporating pool of unskilled labour jobs is going to make a bad problem worse. People need these jobs. This is a big problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 13:23:42 GMT -5
I like it. Now if we can just get the robots to cook the food too, then I wouldn't get my order screwed up.
Machines have been replacing people for decades. This is nothing new. Sorry. It's not you. Just... Yours is the only post not 'in denial' so to speak. I was reading through the litany of "self-serve is too hard", "I don't like self-serve", "robots are hard to maintain" puppies and rainbows, and lo here is Angel bucking the trend and embracing reality. And then at the end: "Machines have been replacing people for decades. This is nothing new." Or, alternatively translated, "...but, we can still enjoy our puppies and rainbows!" I hate to break it to everyone, but: yes, this is new; yes, it is a problem; and no, the 15 minimum-waging employees displaced by these terminals will not all find jobs as 15 skilled terminal maintenance technicians. You might need one or two such technicians. From a general productivity standpoint, automation is never a bad thing. From a rich-getting-richer-poor-getting-poorer standpoint, an evaporating pool of unskilled labour jobs is going to make a bad problem worse. People need these jobs. This is a big problem. We're already are moving to a self checkout right now at retail stores in our area. One person watches over a group of six stations where there used to be six employees five years ago. Wealth redistribution as in large minimum wage hikes, seldom works in business.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 27, 2015 14:57:07 GMT -5
I noticed in my neighborhood few teenagers and college students returning for the summer have jobs. Most of them babysit. At first I just thought they were lazy or weren't willing to work for minimum wage b/c they can get $12-$15/hour babysitting, but maybe it's because the part-time jobs are hard to find. An interesting shift from my youth where most of my friends, my siblings and I had jobs at 16 working fastfood, bagging groceries, amusement parks, movie theaters and a few who were lucky enough to score a mall job. When I go to the same amusement park I worked at from 16-19, there are very few teenagers working. The entire park was run by 16-20 year olds when I worked there. Don't know, just an observation. Both of my nieces are nannying over the summer. One niece makes $400/week looking after 3 school age children. She'd be hard pressed to take home that kind of money working retail. It's not that she hasn't worked retail, she's had several of these jobs over the last several years. But this one pays her the most. Not only that, by not working retail she is not tempted to spend her paycheck in the store!
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