Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 2, 2015 16:07:25 GMT -5
No, the series of questions points to someone who has either done no research or has and is deliberately asking straw man questions. You can't point out that a vaccine says not to be given to pregnant women, and is not given, then ask how can it be save for pregnant woman!
I'm all for good questions. Those questions were all conspiracy theory type questions or straw man questions (thanks for that, I knew it had to be a fallacy).
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 2, 2015 16:12:48 GMT -5
All, I'm saying, kitten, is that you came here blasting vaccinations because of something you read on the internet. It's just like my saying your MCS isn't real because I read it on the internet. Well the last time I checked, I didn't come here blasting anything. I just posted a series of questions that seems to point toward Persons With Lots Of Institutional Power Wanting to Suppress Anyone Who Questions Them. I question them too because of my issues. I'm tired of being labeled evil because I don't get vaccinations.
Make of that what you will. I know there are many other people like me out there in the real world. I am just trying to stand up for us and be heard.
Which we, regular people also with access to the internet but with a different viewpoint were able to answer for you, using basic logic, in 5 minutes. Which is actually 5 minutes longer than it should have taken, because normal, logical people reading those questions would recognize that they are inherently flawed and ridiculous and should not even be paid attention to. The problem is that you are unable to recognize that they are ridiculous because they go against your dogma regarding pharmaceuticals, chemicals, and so on. Because you cannot comprehend this, it doesn't matter how many times the questions are answered. You will never believe the answers. Period. To deign to answer them is a waste of everyone's time.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 2, 2015 16:15:42 GMT -5
I have tried for 2 years to get DD a shingles shot. The pharmacies will give it if the docs will write a prescription. They keep saying its expensive and medicare won't pay for it till she is over 62 or so, she is disabled and has medicare and Medicaid. I don't care if they will pay, we will, my mom had shingles and it was awful, it was on her back and I had to put medication on her for quite a long time, she was in terrible pain. DD does not want to get it and I don't want her to either. Is there some other reason they won't let someone like her have it? She will be 45 in March. There are a lot of reasons, Stablest. First is that she still has an intact immune system. As you age, your immune system starts to wane. Secondly, if she had chicken pox as a child, she *may* still have a titer (antibody) to the virus. I know mine disappeared around 50. If you have a titer, it will not elicit a memory response, but the circulating antibody will just deactivate it - making the vaccination essentially useless. The purpose is to elicit an immune response and if you give it too soon, you can circumvent this. This is along the lines of why you wait so many weeks after getting one vaccination before you get a booster. You want your antibody levels to drop, then make your immune system work again. It really is all a matter of timing. You want to elicit as large a response as possible, as LATE as possible to protect the longest through the rest of her life. Right now, the suggested age is 62 via Medicare (and many other insurance companies), but they'll probably be dropping it to 55. I'm kind of screwed here. I was doing my practicum when I was 50 and had no 'proof' that I had chicken pox (that's how I know I had no titer). So I was vaccinated against chicken pox (which is essentially the same vaccine at a different dose) because I had to have evidence that I was immune. Chances are, I'll be old when it finally wanes, but it won't be as effective FOR ME if I get it.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 2, 2015 16:18:34 GMT -5
You are different. You have a reason. Most people don't.
DH is allergic to bees. To him, a bee sting is poison. To me, it's a nuisance.
Thank You.
This was really my only point - for me. "The hysteria" - on both sides! - pushes people into positions where blanket statements are made that hurt folks like me. Sorry to be a pain - but I think it's important to point out. Hysteria hurts for many reasons.
Let's be clear - your entire conversation here is a straw man argument. Noone in the legitimate medical/scientific community - not doctors, not the CDC, not the most staunch vaccine advocate - is calling for people to be vaccinated regardless of medical indications to the contrary. Pretending that there are angry mobs demanding that you get vaccinated regardless of whether you have a compromised immune system or allergies or etc. is inherently untruthful. In getting someone to admit that, you have not won anything. Because that's part of the pro-vaccine platform. Protecting people who have these conditions is one of the reasons why vaccine advocates are vaccine advocates. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Feb 2, 2015 16:21:35 GMT -5
Thank you Mich for your response & Pat for raising the question. I wanted to get a shingles shot but my insurance won't pay until age 50. I thought they were just being a PITA but now I know there is a solid reason & I won't waste my own money paying out of pocket since it would be a waste.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 2, 2015 16:29:40 GMT -5
Thermisol is mercury. Mercury is a heavy metal. The human body has no use or need for mercury. It is poison to the human body. It exists as a preservative, period.
For people like me with MCS, the issue is not "the tiny dose," the issue is cumulative burden/cumulative load in the body. It is the accumulation of "tiny doses" of the 80,000+ (or so) chemicals out there in the now-everyday world that did not exist prior to WW II.
And some of us suffer mightily because of them. JMHO. YMMV.
I realize some people have medical reasons not to take them, which is all the more reason for everyone else to take it. But thiomersal CONTAINS mercury, mercury is one of the ingredients not the only one. C9H9HgNaO2S This is the chemical formula for thimerosal. Take a look at the formula and what do you see? Carbon, Hydrogen, Sodium, Oxygen and Sulfur. ALL of these are components in your body already. Mercury (Hg) is the only molecule (it is not an ingredient) in the ingredient that is considered toxic.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 2, 2015 16:36:55 GMT -5
It is also human nature to form an opinion/decision and then only seek out evidence that supports your stance.
We're hardwired that way b/c you didn't have time to make a column of all the reasons why it could be a tiger or it couldn't. You'd end up eaten if it was. So you reacted first and asked questions later.
Research has to fight very hard against this, that is why there is a method that has to be followed when conducting research and publishing.
The internet has made it so anybody with a domain name can now proclaim themselves an 'expert". It's not hard to use some scientific sounding words and terms to make yourself sound like an expert. I
Shady research gets published for $10 in an online journal that anyone can access. If they can fool people like my PI who have decades of experience your general internet browser sure isn't going to pick up on it.
So far I haven't had many people actually provide me with real evidence that the anti-vaccination stance is one I should take seriously. 9 times out of 10 they tell me about Dr. Sears or Jenny McCarthy or their "research" sends me to a site hocking various herbal remedies.
Anybody can cite a study and interpret as they see fit as well. If they don't provide the actual study link who are you to know?
I read a blog where a DOCTOR was claiming that formula causes heart disease, diabetes and death. She made the mistake of linking to the study. I read it and called her out, the study said nothing of the sort. It said any facts found were preliminary and statistically insignificant. They purposed upon further study with larger amounts of data what little evidence they had would fall apart.
How many mothers reading her blog clicked on the link? How many mothers after reading it actually understood what the authors of the study wrote?
I'm not even sure the doctor actually read it. I think she just saw an abstract that appeared to support her agenda and went with it. Again she already had a decision, sought out data that backed up her position and ignored the rest.
There are 25+ years of research that has been replicated till everyone is blue in the face. It's been peer reviewed and published over and over.
Until there is enough legitimate peer reviewed research to overthrow 25+ years of replicated data I am going with vaccinations.
THAT is how science works. It's not "I found a blog that says vaccinations are bad" and we throw our hands up in the air.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 2, 2015 16:42:48 GMT -5
All, I'm saying, kitten, is that you came here blasting vaccinations because of something you read on the internet. It's just like my saying your MCS isn't real because I read it on the internet. Well the last time I checked, I didn't come here blasting anything. I just posted a series of questions that seems to point toward Persons With Lots Of Institutional Power Wanting to Suppress Anyone Who Questions Them. I question them too because of my issues. I'm tired of being labeled evil because I don't get vaccinations.
Make of that what you will. I know there are many other people like me out there in the real world. I am just trying to stand up for us and be heard.
Those questions were the height of absurdity. "If vaccines are so trustworthy, why are were African women given vaccines secretly laced with abortion chemicals?" Seriously?
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 2, 2015 16:43:10 GMT -5
I'm reiterating my point that chugging a bottle of chlorine would be toxic too, but sodium chloride is harmless. Toxic elements aren't necessarily still toxic when in a compound. Thimerosal? Well I'm not a scientist so I can't throw knowledge on that, but I'm ok trusting scientific studies that showed it wasn't causing problem/toxicity with its use in vaccines.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 2, 2015 16:48:24 GMT -5
This is the CDC so they are part of the conspiracy but I thought this was interesting www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_timeline.htmlBesides the flu vaccination thermisol was removed from vaccinations in the United States in 2001. So if your claim is you won't get vaccinated today because of thermisol it's a non-argument. You've had 14 years in which to get vaccinated safely.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 3, 2015 8:34:52 GMT -5
You're opinion might be different and you're free to it.
Thank you so much for saying this. THIS is the part that I don't see enough of. (sorry for the dangling participle, lol)
There ARE legitimate concerns out there, even the CDC, other private and government agencies, research, the enclosure pamphlets etc etc etc say so. People are getting *hysterical* and saying those who don't choose to vaccinate should be thrown in jail. Really?
Some people have very legitimate health reasons for not vaccinating - I'm one of them. I am medically counter-indicated for most (if not all) vaccines - by the very same organizations that push vaccines so hard. Why you do (the Big You, not anyone here in particular) get to call me names, threaten me, call me a menace, say I should be thrown in jail, etc . . . without even knowing (or caring) about my circumstances. *smh*
I just think this whole think is divisive and damaging - the very opposite of what medicine is supposed to be about (another dangling participle - lol and sorry).
We're not. We're counting you as part of the reason the rest of the people should be vaccinated - so that you CAN be safe in public and can hide in the herd immunity. We're not saying there aren't legitimate reasons to not vaccinate. We're saying that the reasons provided by the OP link do not fall into that camp.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 8:41:14 GMT -5
so does this apply to every single vaccination? if a child doesn't have the HPV vaccine should they be barred from school? what about rotovirus? flu shot? what if someone over 50 doesn't have the shingles vaccine - should they be barred from places? I think there are some vaccines that should be mandatory (unless medically contraindicated) and others that should be left up to parental decision.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 9:14:10 GMT -5
Oh, for crying out loud! My sil just posted those questions with a comment about asking questions and not just accepting what someone tells you. +&:!;(&@$=#!+%'%! And I'm pretty sure she recently graduated as a science major.
Must not post. Must not post.
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cael
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Post by cael on Feb 3, 2015 9:23:46 GMT -5
I only skimmed this thread... I just this morning had to talk DH down from starting a fight on his crazy anti-vax cousin's fb page because all she's been doing lately is posting anti-vax crap about sheeple and pharmaceutical companies and whatever. I told him to just block her from his feed... his brain literally almost exploded. She sure as hell won't be meeting my kids until they're old enough to have all their vaccines, since her 4 kids have varying levels of vaccination she also hasn't washed her hair in months (she is doing "natural dreads") and went through a phase of using a "family rag" instead of toilet paper soooo....
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 3, 2015 9:32:06 GMT -5
I only skimmed this thread... I just this morning had to talk DH down from starting a fight on his crazy anti-vax cousin's fb page because all she's been doing lately is posting anti-vax crap about sheeple and pharmaceutical companies and whatever. I told him to just block her from his feed... his brain literally almost exploded. She sure as hell won't be meeting my kids until they're old enough to have all their vaccines, since her 4 kids have varying levels of vaccination she also hasn't washed her hair in months (she is doing "natural dreads") and went through a phase of using a "family rag" instead of toilet paper soooo.... Please do not post where your DH's cousin lives. I would rather not know if she could be my neighbor, especially a neighbor with a "family rag".
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 3, 2015 9:33:56 GMT -5
Oh, for crying out loud! My sil just posted those questions with a comment about asking questions and not just accepting what someone tells you. +&:!;(&@$=#!+%'%! And I'm pretty sure she recently graduated as a science major. Must not post. Must not post. BTW, the "just asking questions" technique is also known as the flawed or loaded questions fallacy. It's close cousin to the strawman (and often how people justify their strawman attacks.)
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Feb 3, 2015 9:40:37 GMT -5
Actually, I think it's good to ask questions - as long as they are ones that are not deliberately designed to elicit a certain predisposed response.
There is nothing wrong with challenging the status quo, but when making decisions that impact individual and group health you should be using your brains and not your emotions.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 9:41:38 GMT -5
Oh, for crying out loud! My sil just posted those questions with a comment about asking questions and not just accepting what someone tells you. +&:!;(&@$=#!+%'%! And I'm pretty sure she recently graduated as a science major. Must not post. Must not post. BTW, the "just asking questions" technique is also known as the flawed or loaded questions fallacy. It's close cousin to the strawman (and often how people justify their strawman attacks.) She has a long history of presenting obviously (well to any normal person) cooked up information as fact. A while ago it was that chemo only worked 3% of the time and drs only use it because they get huge kick backs...all from a site selling you 400+ a month supplements to fight your cancer. Somehow pharmaceutical companies lie to sell you their product but the essential oil company she works for never would nor would other "natural" companies. One of these days I'm going to explode but I'm trying for family harmony.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 9:56:39 GMT -5
No one is fighting directly in my view, but since many of the very, very many of anti vac postings on Facebook lately have been accompanies by statements like 'and I don't care who I offend'... I'm guessing there are fights a waging...
Oh, and Obama is getting blasted too. As always.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 3, 2015 10:06:21 GMT -5
Chris Christie is getting slammed too. Rightfully so.
He's pandering. The old Chris Christie would say, "Get your kids vaccinated, and shut up about it. The vaccines don't cause autism and if you think so, you're an idiot."
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cael
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Post by cael on Feb 3, 2015 10:23:28 GMT -5
BTW, the "just asking questions" technique is also known as the flawed or loaded questions fallacy. It's close cousin to the strawman (and often how people justify their strawman attacks.) She has a long history of presenting obviously (well to any normal person) cooked up information as fact. A while ago it was that chemo only worked 3% of the time and drs only use it because they get huge kick backs...all from a site selling you 400+ a month supplements to fight your cancer. Somehow pharmaceutical companies lie to sell you their product but the essential oil company she works for never would nor would other "natural" companies. One of these days I'm going to explode but I'm trying for family harmony. Is your SIL my DH's cousin? Ughhh. Cousin is also a recent science graduate, which is the truly scary thing.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 10:28:10 GMT -5
She has a long history of presenting obviously (well to any normal person) cooked up information as fact. A while ago it was that chemo only worked 3% of the time and drs only use it because they get huge kick backs...all from a site selling you 400+ a month supplements to fight your cancer. Somehow pharmaceutical companies lie to sell you their product but the essential oil company she works for never would nor would other "natural" companies. One of these days I'm going to explode but I'm trying for family harmony. Is your SIL my DH's cousin? Ughhh. Cousin is also a recent science graduate, which is the truly scary thing. She was an interdisciplinary science major and I think there was something about natural in there. Maybe nature? Who knows, but yea I'm half hoping I move far away before I have kids. My family has a looong history of autoimmune disorders, my hypothetical kids are getting everything they can before their body goes haywire (we're usually good until our 20s lol). He had a girl and knows it's the females in our family that get all the crap. Blah, he always follows the girls lead.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 3, 2015 10:34:21 GMT -5
My anti-vax SIL is a NURSE PRACTITIONER.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 10:35:54 GMT -5
See, with a significant history of autoimmune, I'd be approaching cautiously and going the slow and observation route... Different strokes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 10:38:04 GMT -5
My anti-vax SIL is a NURSE PRACTITIONER. I honestly don't think that's uncommon. My principal when I last taught homeschooled. What does she say at work to patients? I always get the feeling when I get the mammogram talk that it's more party line that the practitioner feels she has to give me...
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 3, 2015 10:38:36 GMT -5
so does this apply to every single vaccination? if a child doesn't have the HPV vaccine should they be barred from school? what about rotovirus? flu shot? what if someone over 50 doesn't have the shingles vaccine - should they be barred from places? I think there are some vaccines that should be mandatory (unless medically contraindicated) and others that should be left up to parental decision. I also have not read the whole thread, but lets use a little common sense. I think from what I know about Shingles it affects you personally and is not so contagious. The shingles vaccine is only about 30% effective from what I remember, but I know numerous people that have had shingles including my Mother. Mom said it was just awful. Mom is also pretty much a health nut and doesn't get flu shots. She did get the Pneumonia one, I asked her if she never had to suffer from shingles again or had a 30% chance of not suffering that again did she want to take it. She told me I was right and she should get the vaccine. But you not having a flu shot mheh, well it depends on how much contact you have with the general public. DH had a client who lost a child due to one of the flu's that went around a few years ago. I told him he did not want his agency shut down and he did not want to be the one to give a virus to someone that lost a family member to something like that and he went and got the flu shot last year. We all missed this year's flu shot (we already had symptoms when I was going to mobilize the family).
My kids have all the childhood vaccines including all that are considered important (MMR, Polio, Chicken Pox, tetanus, Gardisol Whooping Cough, Meningitis and Chicken pox come to mind) I think my DS had Whooping Cough in High School despite being vaccinated and DD had Chicken Pox last year despite being vaccinated.
My understanding is the real danger with a large segment of the population not getting vaccinated is that these diseases which are largely conquered might mutate and we would no longer have effective vaccines and a large section of the population immune to them.
I don't think it is a big deal if you choose not to get a flu shot (unless it is a strain that is so bad large numbers of people are dying from it)
I always figured I did not want to live with the guilt of not giving my kids a vaccine and them catching a childhood disease. The statistical risks are pretty miniscule.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Feb 3, 2015 10:47:15 GMT -5
My anti-vax SIL is a NURSE PRACTITIONER. My cousin is a nurse who got fired from her hospital because she refused to get a flu vaccine and then refused to wear a mask at all time around the patients. (of course, this is the same cousin who said my Dad would not have died of mesothelioma if he had followed her holistic health crap)
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 11:25:34 GMT -5
See, with a significant history of autoimmune, I'd be approaching cautiously and going the slow and observation route... Different strokes. I think it varies by which ones? I know I am advised to take all vaccines, and have had several different drs say that. Same thing with my mom. Simple cold will knock us on our ass, the flu would probably be a hospital stay real quick.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 11:25:41 GMT -5
so does this apply to every single vaccination? if a child doesn't have the HPV vaccine should they be barred from school? what about rotovirus? flu shot? what if someone over 50 doesn't have the shingles vaccine - should they be barred from places? I think there are some vaccines that should be mandatory (unless medically contraindicated) and others that should be left up to parental decision. I also have not read the whole thread, but lets use a little common sense. I think from what I know about Shingles it affects you personally and is not so contagious. The shingles vaccine is only about 30% effective from what I remember, but I know numerous people that have had shingles including my Mother. Mom said it was just awful. Mom is also pretty much a health nut and doesn't get flu shots. She did get the Pneumonia one, I asked her if she never had to suffer from shingles again or had a 30% chance of not suffering that again did she want to take it. She told me I was right and she should get the vaccine. But you not having a flu shot mheh, well it depends on how much contact you have with the general public. DH had a client who lost a child due to one of the flu's that went around a few years ago. I told him he did not want his agency shut down and he did not want to be the one to give a virus to someone that lost a family member to something like that and he went and got the flu shot last year. We all missed this year's flu shot (we already had symptoms when I was going to mobilize the family).
My kids have all the childhood vaccines including all that are considered important (MMR, Polio, Chicken Pox, tetanus, Gardisol Whooping Cough, Meningitis and Chicken pox come to mind) I think my DS had Whooping Cough in High School despite being vaccinated and DD had Chicken Pox last year despite being vaccinated.
My understanding is the real danger with a large segment of the population not getting vaccinated is that these diseases which are largely conquered might mutate and we would no longer have effective vaccines and a large section of the population immune to them.
I don't think it is a big deal if you choose not to get a flu shot (unless it is a strain that is so bad large numbers of people are dying from it)
I always figured I did not want to live with the guilt of not giving my kids a vaccine and them catching a childhood disease. The statistical risks are pretty miniscule.
that didn't really answer my question....what about HPV? should a child not be allowed to come to school without that vaccine?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 3, 2015 11:37:27 GMT -5
I also have not read the whole thread, but lets use a little common sense. I think from what I know about Shingles it affects you personally and is not so contagious. The shingles vaccine is only about 30% effective from what I remember, but I know numerous people that have had shingles including my Mother. Mom said it was just awful. Mom is also pretty much a health nut and doesn't get flu shots. She did get the Pneumonia one, I asked her if she never had to suffer from shingles again or had a 30% chance of not suffering that again did she want to take it. She told me I was right and she should get the vaccine. But you not having a flu shot mheh, well it depends on how much contact you have with the general public. DH had a client who lost a child due to one of the flu's that went around a few years ago. I told him he did not want his agency shut down and he did not want to be the one to give a virus to someone that lost a family member to something like that and he went and got the flu shot last year. We all missed this year's flu shot (we already had symptoms when I was going to mobilize the family).
My kids have all the childhood vaccines including all that are considered important (MMR, Polio, Chicken Pox, tetanus, Gardisol Whooping Cough, Meningitis and Chicken pox come to mind) I think my DS had Whooping Cough in High School despite being vaccinated and DD had Chicken Pox last year despite being vaccinated.
My understanding is the real danger with a large segment of the population not getting vaccinated is that these diseases which are largely conquered might mutate and we would no longer have effective vaccines and a large section of the population immune to them.
I don't think it is a big deal if you choose not to get a flu shot (unless it is a strain that is so bad large numbers of people are dying from it)
I always figured I did not want to live with the guilt of not giving my kids a vaccine and them catching a childhood disease. The statistical risks are pretty miniscule.
that didn't really answer my question....what about HPV? should a child not be allowed to come to school without that vaccine? Are they now vaccinating the boys on this one? If not, then what, 50% of the school isn't vaccinated anyway? And what are the ages for this one - first stage at 10 or something? Mine are 5 an d 6.5 so we haven't gotten to this one. And I have questions on it because it didn't have the best PR when they first started giving them. I know a couple of parents who had their daughters get the 1st and/or 2nd part but not the 3rd. So it's one that I need to do more research on.
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