busymom
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Post by busymom on Jun 30, 2014 19:57:59 GMT -5
When DD began working her first job, half of her money had to go into savings (hopefully for college). THAT was not up for negotiation, as we wanted her to learn about saving money early. That wasn't difficult at all for her, & then I could ignore the junk that teens will buy for themselves. Actually, DD didn't buy much "carp". She's a reader like her parents. Unfortunately, her bedroom is just FULL of books.
Bedtime wasn't something she could negotiate (although she tried). We didn't tolerate any backtalk, & a bad attitude could get her grounded (her room, where there was no television or computer). Homework, helping with chores, showing up for her part-time job, & any activities she signed up for, she had to keep up with.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 30, 2014 20:40:41 GMT -5
I say that my son turned out great in spite of his dad and me. But if he hadn't I would blame it on his dad j/k
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 30, 2014 20:50:51 GMT -5
Exactly. You can afford to give the kid's opinion more weight if you don't have to try and figure out how to take the opinions of three kids of varying ages into account. I think that's a huge part of it.
Mind you, I'm not saying parents of multiple children don't take their kids opinions into account. Not at all. I'm just trying to provide a little more insight into what Sheila said earlier. It was much the same in my house growing up.
You won't often hear me extolling the virtues of a single child house, and part of me will never get completely over it if we only have one child. But there's no denying that there are certain unique advantages of being an only. And one of those (again, in my experience) is that you tend to get a little more say in your household.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 30, 2014 20:56:47 GMT -5
OK, so I think I've mentioned this before, but many moms in my homeschooling groups are now all subscribing to this new philosophy of "respect the children", "children are people, treat them as such" and all that other good stuff. Some of it goes to extreme, in my opinion - I've heard of "I don't make my child brush their teeth, hair, etc bc it's their body" or "I don't make my child share or say "thank you" and please - it should be their decision", "I don't set bed times, meal times, I don't control what they eat"
This has me totally confused! In this philosophy is respect supposed to be one-sided? Where is the respect for others in this scenario? This is a not-even-maybe approach IMO! I was a strong believer in to quote a C&W song of which I only remember a few words "there's yesses, there's no and there's maybes". If the kids asked for anything that I had a strong opinion on one way or the other it would be yes or no. If I was neutral they had a chance to convince me why I should allow something. And believe me there have been times that I was more than happy I asked for the reasons behind their requests! Yet at other times they "won" easily. Going to school or not was never optional or open for discussion. And while they were free to chose their electives that was only after there were enough classes with "meat on them" per our opinion. You want guitar lessons? Sure, but you will also take xyz... We moved very often while the kids were growing up and they had no input in where we moved to. When they were older they had some input into which houses we rented but that was it. A mixed bag all in all, definitely not full voting members -not even close- yet also not totally powerless. It worked for our kids in our situation but it might not (have) work(ed) for anyone else's family.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 30, 2014 21:03:15 GMT -5
Also, while I completely disagree with letting kids "choose" things like whether to brush their teeth, I do believe in giving my kid bodily autonomy as much as possible in age-appropriate ways.
No, Babybird doesn't get to decide whether she gets vaccinated. I decide that, just like I change her diapers and put clean clothes on her regardless of whether or not she likes it. But even at her young age (1.5 years) I do make an effort to respect her bodily autonomy. If she doesn't want to be tickled or touched, I leave her alone. If she doesn't want to wear a certain shirt, I let her pick another one.
In other words, while I don't let her run the show by any means, I do believe in letting her make certain, limited, age-appropriate choices for herself. Because even though she's small, she's still a person and deserves to be treated with respect.
I think you can let your kids have a reasonable, age-appropriate amount of say in their lives without being a permissive doormat. Again, plenty of people disagree with me on this... and that's okay. I'm doing what I feel is right for my kid, which is what I think most parents do.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 30, 2014 21:06:33 GMT -5
(BTW, in the context of the above post, "I" = me, DH and to some extent my parents, especially my mom. We all take care of her and decide together how things should be handled. I'm not a dictator or anything
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 21:07:58 GMT -5
I have unschooling friends who are really what I call 'free parenting' ... And yeah, what those kids don't want to do, or do want to do is what goes... For everything.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 30, 2014 21:08:59 GMT -5
I don't believe in letting kids do whatever they want. That's a recipe for disaster. Setting limits is crucial.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 21:11:25 GMT -5
I think so too. I believe in respect and choices, but I think its age appropriate and a two way street.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 30, 2014 21:12:30 GMT -5
I think it's partly because there is less competition. DS is only 5 but gets a lot more voice in our household because there aren't siblings with competing needs and preferences. It's easier to make a three way bargain then a four way one and so on. DS sometimes gets to pick where we go for dinner. If it had been DH and his sibling that conversation would probably have erupted into a very long and acrimonious argument. I think this is also the reason single children tend to be thought of spoiled more often. I imagine it can be hard to learn sharing and compromise and taking turns when you don't have to do it nearly as often. At 5 and 3 my kids have already learned to compromise and take turns because if they can't agree on a show, then they don't get to watch anything. But there is other stuff that they rarely get to vote on. I never ask what they want for dinner unless I want to make 2 separate things. They never pick the same thing and I always end up with one unhappy kid. So I could easily see how single kids are treated more as equals in that regard.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 30, 2014 21:13:07 GMT -5
I don't believe in letting kids do whatever they want. That's a recipe for disaster. Setting limits is crucial. Not to mention that it keeps me from killing them.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 30, 2014 21:23:01 GMT -5
I actually get kind of pissed when people extrapolate the (IMO very reasonable) statement "Children are people and deserve respect" into something downright silly like "kids shouldn't have to brush their teeth if they don't feel like it."
Of course kids need to brush their teeth. As a parent you're being stupid if you don't make them brush their teeth. Yes, kids deserve respect and autonomy IN AGE APPROPRIATE WAYS but the whole point of being a kid is that you DON'T always know what's right for you and that's why you have parents.
Respecting your children as people and letting them make certain, limited decisions for themselves so they can become strong, independent decision makers =/= letting them do whatever the hell they want so they'll like you better. Whoever started equating the two did a real disservice to parents... and to kids.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 30, 2014 22:13:44 GMT -5
oped, those are the type of things we take the kids input on as well. Well, except for the bedtime part Because we are both working parents and we use public school. So getting up whenever is not an option. Where I am (and I guess MM is too) confused is what MAJOR decisions do the kids have input on that we are not including our kids in. I guess I am asking the wrong person. It should be directed towards Sheila. I consider a "full voting member" as a person who has input on all the decisions in the family. I sure don't consider kids < 18 to be grown enough to be included in every major family decision. Ok, let's go the opposite way then. What Don't you give your kids a say in? Because I'm trying to think of one I'd exclude my kids from.... This is is hard. I choose vacation but I do try to take them places I know they will enjoy. School is mandatory and unless you have a fever or are puking, your ass is in school. I have set bedtimes in school nights because my kids are miserable in the morning if they don't get enough sleep. Good hygiene is mandatory (they are older now so that is a given). Good grades (for my oldest at least). Oh, and not stealing the car. I would have thought that was a given but I was wrong
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 30, 2014 22:27:33 GMT -5
When my oldest was born I was one of "those" moms. I had so much time with her and I spent most of it trying to teach her. She was always so advanced and I KNEW it was because I was such an awesome mom! Then my second came along...no matter how much I worked with her she struggled to learn. That was when I realized that my oldest is naturally very bright. I didn't make her bright she was born that way! To this day she learns very easily.
I believe kids are born with a certain personality. My oldest is me reincarnated. My god is she a pain-in-the-ass about everything! Very strong willed. It will serve her well as an adult but in the meantime she is driving me nuts! I long for one of those easy going kids. Then again, I love the strength that my daughter has...imagine, a mini Miss Tequila!lol
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 30, 2014 22:28:22 GMT -5
I choose vacation but I do try to take them places I know they will enjoy. School is mandatory and unless you have a fever or are puking, your ass is in school. I have set bedtimes in school nights because my kids are miserable in the morning if they don't get enough sleep. Good hygiene is mandatory (they are older now so that is a given). Good grades (for my oldest at least). Oh, and not stealing the car. I would have thought that was a given but I was wrong Yeah my parents wrongly assumed stealing the car was a given too... Lol! So did my mother! But my kid would never do such a thing because I was such a better parent...karma, stop laughing at me!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 30, 2014 22:29:04 GMT -5
OK, so I think I've mentioned this before, but many moms in my homeschooling groups are now all subscribing to this new philosophy of "respect the children", "children are people, treat them as such" and all that other good stuff. Some of it goes to extreme, in my opinion - I've heard of "I don't make my child brush their teeth, hair, etc bc it's their body" or "I don't make my child share or say "thank you" and please - it should be their decision", "I don't set bed times, meal times, I don't control what they eat"
This has me totally confused! In this philosophy is respect supposed to be one-sided? Where is the respect for others in this scenario? This is a not-even-maybe approach IMO! I was a strong believer in to quote a C&W song of which I only remember a few words "there's yesses, there's no and there's maybes". If the kids asked for anything that I had a strong opinion on one way or the other it would be yes or no. If I was neutral they had a chance to convince me why I should allow something. And believe me there have been times that I was more than happy I asked for the reasons behind their requests! Yet at other times they "won" easily. Going to school or not was never optional or open for discussion. And while they were free to chose their electives that was only after there were enough classes with "meat on them" per our opinion. You want guitar lessons? Sure, but you will also take xyz... We moved very often while the kids were growing up and they had no input in where we moved to. When they were older they had some input into which houses we rented but that was it. A mixed bag all in all, definitely not full voting members -not even close- yet also not totally powerless. It worked for our kids in our situation but it might not (have) work(ed) for anyone else's family. It is my understanding that those parents try to treat their kids like they are grown adults. So, since you can't make an adult to share this things with you or you can't force another adult to brush their hair - they don't force their kids into it. They also do a lot of unschooling, claiming that kids should not be forced into learning until they express interest in it. for the most part I try to stay away from those families bc I think those ideas are crazy and I am not the most tactful person and if the subject came up - I can't guarantee that I can keep my mouth shut
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 30, 2014 22:38:29 GMT -5
Sounds nice, but we'll have to reevaluate in 10-15 years. He might still be living with you and going through the same daily routine. It's possible but he is quite determined to away to college and really would like to go out of country (currently Canada). He has a pretty set plan and wants to fly the nest when he graduates. We plan to move after he graduates and his only concern was "will I have to rent a hotel room when I visit from college?" Anything could happen but I seriously doubt he'll be living on my couch 10 years from now. Of course he wants to go away to college...you smother the boy!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 30, 2014 22:39:07 GMT -5
It is my understanding that those parents try to treat their kids like they are grown adults. So, since you can't make an adult to share this things with you or you can't force another adult to brush their hair - they don't force their kids into it. They also do a lot of unschooling, claiming that kids should not be forced into learning until they express interest in it. for the most part I try to stay away from those families bc I think those ideas are crazy and I am not the most tactful person and if the subject came up - I can't guarantee that I can keep my mouth shut What? I can't imagine you not being tactful.....:-p
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 30, 2014 22:43:07 GMT -5
People get carried away with their ideas. It doesn't mean the ideas are bad, more like the people who got carried away with them got carried away with them.
I believe in treating kids with respect but I also make Babybird brush her teeth every night.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 30, 2014 22:46:09 GMT -5
And personally, I think if the Boy had a smother, he wouldn't be in Germany right now. Call me crazy.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 30, 2014 22:52:21 GMT -5
People get carried away with their ideas. It doesn't mean the ideas are bad, more like the people who got carried away with them got carried away with them. I believe in treating kids with respect but I also make Babybird brush her teeth every night. Nah, some ideas are pretty bad. Also, while it's very popular to say that everyone should be treated with respect, I think respect has to be earned and not simply given for sheer existence
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 22:56:54 GMT -5
I think we all have basic rights which need to be respects. I might disagree with some people on how to accomplish that.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 1, 2014 3:10:14 GMT -5
I think there's a level of respect a person has to earn, and then a basic level of respect everyone is owed. Bodily autonomy, in my opinion, is part of the second category.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 1, 2014 7:57:21 GMT -5
Well, I still remember our fantastic pediatrician who was really okay the day DS announced to her he wanted a "man doctor!" It never occurred to me that he would feel uncomfortable about his pediatrician being a woman. But he did, not to me BEFOREHAND mind you so that I could have tactfully arranged it but in front of her. She was way more cool about it than I was. By that time she had other employees or doctors or whatever so it was very easy for her to slip out the door and get a very nice male doctor. Weirdly enough, DS didn't want ME to leave the room which I thought would be a given based on him now realizing there were differences. He was 8. This is the boy who just that summer had taught his little sister how to fart with his/her armpits in the shower. They were in the shower together. It didnt start out that way, he was showering after swim team and she went in and used the bathroom and heard him doing it so asked about it. Next thing I knew she was in there, too, and I had stereo giggling and armpit farting. Sigh.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 1, 2014 8:09:16 GMT -5
I think there's a level of respect a person has to earn, and then a basic level of respect everyone is owed. Bodily autonomy, in my opinion, is part of the second category. Feel free not to change your kids' diaper bc they don't want you to. Their body, their right.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 1, 2014 8:11:25 GMT -5
I'll probably get no end of shit for saying this, especially since you all know my hangup about only child stuff- but IN MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, the kind of dynamic Sheila describes is very common in only-child households. With only one kid, there's less division between "the parents" and "the kids." The only child tends to be treated like a little adult from a very young age and as s/he gets older, that can translate into what kind of looks like a relationship between three equals. Obviously that doesn't mean the kid runs the whole show. It just means they're treated more like an adult than the average kid is by their parents. For example, at age nine I didn't get a vote when my family moved states (as it should be in my opinion) but I got a lot of say in decisions around the move, like the timing of it and the furniture we bought and so forth. My parents consulted me on that stuff. They used to tell me "you don't always get a vote, but you get a voice." So I don't think Sheila is saying her kid gets total control or anything. It sounds like they just have more equality in their relationship with their teenage son than a lot of parents have with their kids. In MY experience, that is super common with only children and their parents. First off- MM I sincerely apologize for coming off as condescending in my post. That was not my intention.
Stephen is an only child. We had him when we were 22 and 24. We lived in Anchorage and the closest family member living to us was in Minnesota (a 5 hour minimum plane ride away). We pretty much were stuck in a sink or swim situation and our parenting philosophy grew out of necessity. DH was raised as an only child (although he has older half siblings by the time he was 5 they were effectively out of the picture). I was one of four and didn't get along with my siblings at all. From the day one of our relationship we had wanted to only have the one child.
We tell the Boy all the time: You have exactly as many rules as you need. Once you show us you need more rules there will be more rules.
Right, wrong or indifferent we really try not to tell the Boy what to do. Obviously when he was little we would put a stop to dangerous behaviors (running with sharp objects, playing with electrical outlets, etc). We stopped having a set bedtime for him several years ago (around maybe age 10 or 11). We explained to him that part of not having a set bedtime was the personal responsibility of getting up on time in the morning and not being crabby. He agreed with us that if he refused to get up in the morning or woke up crabby that we would have to enforce a bedtime. It's been years but so far he has never refused to wake up in the morning and has very rarely woken up crabby.
When DH had his affair and was diagnosed with his addiction and his bipolar we discussed it with the Boy. He was 9 at the time. He was aware that his dad needed therapy. He was free to ask his dad any questions that he wanted. We didn't hide things from him because I believe DH's addictive personality to be genetic as well as some mental disorders being genetic. When I was to the point that I was ready for DH to move back in with us I consulted DS and got his opinion on the subject.
When we were unemployed and our house was being foreclosed on in CA we discussed it with the Boy (he was 11 at the time). We asked if he thought we should stick it out in CA or move back to MN. We gave him the same options that we were considering. We did this because we have always tried to be a team of sorts. I wasn't going to make a decision that would leave him miserable.
When DH interviewed for his current promotion DS was fully aware. We wanted his take on it because it would ultimately lead to us moving to the Twin Cities. He was supportive of his dad's opportunity but really doesn't want us to move until after he graduates. We are respecting his wishes (although there are several factors that are contributing to our decision to stay in our current place until after he graduates).
"full voting member" is a term we use in our family. I don't mean that he is an adult or the he can dictate things to us but so far every decision has been a group decision.
I feel like I'm not explaining myself very well or just making things worse. I can only speak on my situation with my DH and my Kid. I am sure if I had a different kid or more than one kid that my parenting style would change.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 1, 2014 8:17:11 GMT -5
We let DS decide if he wanted to get braces or not. He decided that yes he wanted them and as a result has taken them more seriously. I was not willing to pay $6,000 for braces and invest 2 years into driving him to appointments if he wasn't on board.
Our orthodontist explained all the options to the Boy, the pros and cons and in the end he decided that yes he wanted the braces. He has never once argued about having to wear his rubber bands. I've never had to tell him to wear them. He has never complained about his adjustments. I remind him frequently that it was his call.
He told us once "the guys are jealous because I don't have any rules at our house". I stopped him right there and explained that he has as many rules as he needs. The only basic rule we have is to treat people with respect. If he does a 180 and starts acting like a fool than yes we will have to make changes to our parenting style and adopt some rules I'm sure. So far that hasn't been necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 8:18:10 GMT -5
Yes, the idea of full voting member also doesn't mean, as I've observed in some of the unschooling families I know, that kids vote counts MORE than the parents.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 8:19:57 GMT -5
And see I let son choose about braces, because it's a cosmetic thing, but never even approached it as a choice with daughter, because i considered it medically necessary. She was 8 when she started.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 1, 2014 8:27:23 GMT -5
Of course he wants to go away to college...you smother the boy!
I actively worry that I am smothering him. I really try not to. I've been telling him for years to embrace his options and experiences. We have said all along that if he wants to do PSEO full time his senior year w would be cool with that. I've suggested he keep up with his German and consider studying abroad or doing a year long exchange before he starts college.
Yes I do joke that I am going to follow him to college and rent an apartment down the street from his dorm. He knows I'm kidding.
DS is one of my favorite people in the entire world. He is so amazingly funny, sarcastic, witty, intelligent, etc. I absolutely love sitting down with him in the living room and discussing life with him. He is an excellent conversationalist and so fascinating to talk to. When he leaves us for college we will be equal parts thrilled for him and this experience and sad because we will miss him like crazy.
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