8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 10, 2011 13:08:10 GMT -5
...:::"Yep. Want to see how a man really feels about name-changing? Ask him to change his name if he thinks it's important that everyone in the family have the same last name.":::...
I'll skip my usual hateful rhetoric and cut to the chase.
For me, it all boils down to the one argument that can't be defeated by logic. This is what I have wanted since I was young.
As you all know, DF really wanted her big fancy ring. She's wanted it since she was young. Fine, she got it, because it was important to her.
So it ROYALLY cheeses me off when I try to use the same argument, and I am expected to just change my mind and accept what she wants. It also says a lot more about a person who tries to argue a-la-carte.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 10, 2011 13:15:05 GMT -5
My mom was asked if she is going to revert to her maiden name. She said no -- she isn't trying to erase the past, and her new name is who she is.
Cripes man-haters, just let your guy have this one last bastion of manhood if it is that important to him. It does NOT make you a slave, or subservient, or lesser. It makes you a good wife. He gives up so much more for you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 13:50:24 GMT -5
For me, it all boils down to the one argument that can't be defeated by logic. This is what I have wanted since I was young. As you all know, DF really wanted her big fancy ring. She's wanted it since she was young. Fine, she got it, because it was important to her. <snip> The funny thing is, I've wanted to keep my own name ever since I can remember. So, yes, I can understand something you feel in your gut for no logical reason. On that, we agree!
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 10, 2011 14:04:27 GMT -5
Cripes man-haters, just let your guy have this one last bastion of manhood if it is that important to him. It does NOT make you a slave, or subservient, or lesser. It makes you a good wife. He gives up so much more for you. Why does wanting to maintain your own identity (especially if you have an established professional identity) make you a man hater? And what exactly does my DH give up for me that I don't give up for him? Maybe this is a problem in your relationship? In a partnership marriage, while it may vary over time, in the end, what each partner gives up should end up being about equal. And wouldn't my DH, supporting me keeping my own name, not make him a "woman" or less of a man, but a good husband? Having said that... If you each have things that are important to you because that's the way you've always dreamed they would be, then you need to talk about them in advance and decide which ones you really can't let go of, and which ones can be compromised, and there should be compromise on both sides. If your DF is ignoring your feelings, claiming that everything has to be the way she wants it, you have to decide if that's a precedent you can live with, or, fight for the things that are really important to you. And yes, if you accept "because this is what I've always dreamed of" as a reason from her, then she needs to accept it as a reason from you. This would be why I advised the OP, in my first post, that she and her SO should both sit down and right out lists of what they really want and make notes of where they're willing to compromise (and how much) and where they're not. You choose exactly how much you're willing to give up in a relationship. Each person does. Please don't assume that people whose preferences go against yours are "haters" of any sort. Knowing that their priorities are different from yours doesn't make them anything but different. And since you're not in a relationship with them, what does it really matter to you? And if you have compromise/"I'm giving up so much more than you" issues with your DF, you need to work them out with her, not take them out on us.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 10, 2011 14:18:35 GMT -5
It is stupid to argue this point, because there are NO logical points that cannot be flipped and used to defend the opposite role.
Dudes: if this is important to you, don't take no for an answer. Ladies, ditto. Best of luck.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 10, 2011 14:32:37 GMT -5
Dudes: if this is important to you, don't take no for an answer. Ladies, ditto. Best of luck. No argument from me there. The only thing I say is that if the same thing is equally important to both of you, and you're on opposite sides, both sides need to compromise, or decide this is a hill the relationship will die on.
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TrixAre4Kids
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Post by TrixAre4Kids on Feb 10, 2011 15:03:12 GMT -5
He gives up so much more for you. Say, WHAT?!?!?!?
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dianartemis
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Post by dianartemis on Feb 10, 2011 15:03:26 GMT -5
Just to throw more fuel on the fire... I know some married women who use their maiden names in their professional life, even though they did a legal name change.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 15:12:50 GMT -5
Just to throw more fuel on the fire... I know some married women who use their maiden names in their professional life, even though they did a legal name change. Way too complicated if you travel both on business and with your family. Driver's License, passport, plane reservations- which do you use for what? What is the TSA going to say?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 10, 2011 15:13:34 GMT -5
...:::"Just to throw more fuel on the fire... I know some married women who use their maiden names in their professional life, even though they did a legal name change.":::...
That would certainly mitigate the "I lose my professional cred" argument.
Its not that much different than an author who writes under a pseudonym, right? Or an actor who uses a stage name, like Whoopi Goldberg, or Natalie Portman.
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dianartemis
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Post by dianartemis on Feb 10, 2011 15:14:48 GMT -5
DL, PP, plane reservations, are all in their legal name. Publications, etc are all in their maiden name.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 10, 2011 15:15:46 GMT -5
Just to throw more fuel on the fire... I know some married women who use their maiden names in their professional life, even though they did a legal name change
I know a few as well.
There is also a process you can go thru to make sure that any papers you write under your married name can be linked with papers you wrote under your maiden name during a PubMed search.
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 10, 2011 16:23:38 GMT -5
Doh. I didn't get to read WWBG's whole post before I had to head to a long meeting, but I was all ready to refute the part about demanding a big fancy ring (my DH did not get down on a knee, ask my Dad for permission, give me any kind of romantic speech, or produce a ring. I still said "yes"). Then I come back and the post has been edited. Oh well! The /facepalms keep coming - "he gives up so much more for you..." PLEASE.
ETA: I think we've both gained quite a bit by being married. Neither of us has given up much of anything to be married, but we don't have kids yet. That's where the fun could start.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 10, 2011 16:26:36 GMT -5
Doesn't it get old to have someone constantly "dig" at everything you post? Sure does to me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 16:28:49 GMT -5
Ahhhhhh, so does that mean your last name starts with an Au? Ca(rl) Wi(lliams) Au(something) = cawiau? I always wondered how you got your screen name. Apparently Carl Williams is also a serial killer in Australia yep you got it... first two letters of first name, middle name and last name. And thanks, I will google the serial killer
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 10, 2011 17:51:10 GMT -5
...:::"The /facepalms keep coming - "he gives up so much more for you..." PLEASE.":::...
I have no doubt that over the course of your, and most marriages, the woman will get more "its really important that you just do this for me" wins than he will.
I thought about buying the "OK, we are totally equal" crap and give in on changing my name. But then I would insist that she double her salary and then some to match mine; plunk down an equal sum for a piece of engagement jewelry to match what I spent, ask me if I wanted to marry her, up her game when it comes to cooking, and so forth. That ought to set things straight.
...:::"Doesn't it get old to have someone constantly "dig" at everything you post? Sure does to me.":::...
Doesn't it get old to have a bitter old man-hater use every thread to exonerate herself of responsibility?
...:::"Doh. I didn't get to read WWBG's whole post before I had to head to a long meeting, but I was all ready to refute the part about demanding a big fancy ring":::...
By all means, please feel free to PM me. If you like, I can PM you and try to recreate the post.
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 10, 2011 18:30:44 GMT -5
I have no doubt that over the course of your, and most marriages, the woman will get more "its really important that you just do this for me" wins than he will. Can you give me examples of the kinds of things that you think so many men are giving up by being married? I'm honestly trying to understand. Perhaps it's because I'm fairly outside the norm in terms of feminine behavior, but I really don't understand. Maybe I just need to start making more demands? Maybe I'm a pushover?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 11, 2011 11:50:12 GMT -5
I have no doubt that over the course of your, and most marriages, the woman will get more "its really important that you just do this for me" wins than he will. Can you give me examples of the kinds of things that you think so many men are giving up by being married? I'm honestly trying to understand. Perhaps it's because I'm fairly outside the norm in terms of feminine behavior, but I really don't understand. Maybe I just need to start making more demands? Maybe I'm a pushover? Here's my situation - I HAVE to use words like "It's important to me" because DH isn't going to think about doing whatever it is on his own. If it's important to me that he come to the concert I'm performing in, I need to tell him that. Whereas with him, I either ask if he wants me and/or the kids there or assume he'll want me and/or the kids there and quietly make the necessary arrangements to be there, with or without kids. He doesn't read minds; it doesn't automatically occur to him to assorted stuff for me simply "because" - my DH doesn't work that way. He needs to be told. It's not that he's selfish per se, it's more like he's on autopilot... And I'm struggling with this right now because I NEED him to do stuff and I don't like having to ask/tell him because the stupid part of me is still going "I shouldn't HAVE to tell/ask him to do X. He's not blind or stupid and if I have DO have to ask him what I think he should be doing automatically, does it then follow that he's not as invested in this relationship like I am?" And then I start to spiral further down the depressed/overstressed/overwhelmed path that I'm currently on. And it ain't a pretty cycle. I know it's stupid, I know it's self-defeating and it's not good for us or the kids but D@MN, it's a hard path to stop. Sorry, didn't mean to rant and rave.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 13:36:29 GMT -5
Can you give me examples of the kinds of things that you think so many men are giving up by being married? I'm honestly trying to understand. Perhaps it's because I'm fairly outside the norm in terms of feminine behavior, but I really don't understand. Maybe I just need to start making more demands? Maybe I'm a pushover? Here's my situation - I HAVE to use words like "It's important to me" because DH isn't going to think about doing whatever it is on his own. If it's important to me that he come to the concert I'm performing in, I need to tell him that. Whereas with him, I either ask if he wants me and/or the kids there or assume he'll want me and/or the kids there and quietly make the necessary arrangements to be there, with or without kids. He doesn't read minds; it doesn't automatically occur to him to assorted stuff for me simply "because" - my DH doesn't work that way. He needs to be told. It's not that he's selfish per se, it's more like he's on autopilot... And I'm struggling with this right now because I NEED him to do stuff and I don't like having to ask/tell him because the stupid part of me is still going "I shouldn't HAVE to tell/ask him to do X. He's not blind or stupid and if I have DO have to ask him what I think he should be doing automatically, does it then follow that he's not as invested in this relationship like I am?" And then I start to spiral further down the depressed/overstressed/overwhelmed path that I'm currently on. And it ain't a pretty cycle. I know it's stupid, I know it's self-defeating and it's not good for us or the kids but D@MN, it's a hard path to stop. Sorry, didn't mean to rant and rave. I agree with this. You tend to go with the language that works. A gentle, "Honey, can you please..." doesn't always work. Sometimes men just don't seem to hear you unless you make it a matter of "Look, this is REALLY important to me and I really need you to just get on board even if you don't perfectly understand where I'm coming from here." I try to keep the list of topics for which I use that approach as short as possible, but I'd be lying if I said I never did it. In my defense, I am fully willing to do things for him from time to time just because they're important to him even if I don't totally "get" why they matter so much.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 16:00:31 GMT -5
DH hates it when I'm subtle. He doesn't get what I'm saying and we both end up frustrated. He tells me flat out that if I'm handing out clues he's not receiving them. It was hard to get used to at first but now it's a relief to just put it out there.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 16:29:07 GMT -5
I'd still really like to know the answer to the question I posted yesterday.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 11, 2011 22:01:32 GMT -5
I'd have to agree with the statement. Statistically speaking, most of the marital assets are going to be spent down by the wife. His "half" will be spent by her after he dies. For most men, his half is also spent by her while he's living .[/size]
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 12, 2011 9:42:14 GMT -5
OMG, are you the Muscle Up in another form?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 19:42:55 GMT -5
I went through the name-change thing because I married a second time a couple of years ago. For 20 years I was known by my maiden name. I was married for 24 years. Hundreds and hundreds of students knew me by that married name. So I didn't change it.
That turned out to be a bigger mistake when I married the second time. At that point, I had used my married name for 35 years. But I couldn't "keep" it because it would have meant my new DH would have constantly been referred to by students by my ex's last name. I guess at that point I could have gone back to my maiden name, but I just went with his.
But the paperwork is a lot more than a lot of you are imagining (probably men). Every day, and I've been married a couple of years, there is something else that I discovered hasn't been changed. We got a new hot water heater, and the gas company had a rebate. They sent it in my maiden name. I forgot to change that account since I pay online. Every time I talk to Bright House, we stumble over the name thing, and they say they will send me "the" form. They never do.
Even my employer can't get it right and tries to treat my ex's name as my maiden name. GRRRRR . . . . I guess it's because it matches my diplomas and teaching certificate.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 14, 2011 12:53:29 GMT -5
...:::"because I NEED him to do stuff and I don't like having to ask/tell him because the stupid part of me is still going "I shouldn't HAVE to tell/ask him to do X. ":::...
I'm glad you recognize that asking him to do something is merely an issue of "language" vs extrapolating that he must not care enough about you. It frustrates most men that women first gripe that he doesn't do something, then gripe when they have to ask him, then gripe that he does it wrong. If speaking DF's language is all that it takes to get what I want, then I'd rather that than to be constantly disappointed.
...:::"But the paperwork is a lot more than a lot of you are imagining (probably men).":::...
So if it is hard enough for one person to go through, then having BOTH go through it compounds the headache.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 14, 2011 13:13:48 GMT -5
I don't know why many men feel so strongly about it, I don't think I even ask my DH why he felt so strongly about it. But they do. May be it's from generations worth of traditions, may be, like Cawaiu said to them, it's the last "manly" thing they can hold on to. I don't know. What I do know, is that besides professional reasons, like being published, etc, NOT ONE WOMAN has been able to explain to me what is so wrong about it. It would be interesting to hear some explanations. I just don't get the ones that sound like they come from a 2yr old stomping his feet saying "I don't wanna"!! Lena Um, because I didn't become my husband's property when we got married? I kept my name because I'm a name partner and if I changed it, my secretary/office manager was going to strangle me if she had to change everything in the office with the firm name on it.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 14, 2011 13:33:11 GMT -5
[/quote]
Um, because I didn't become my husband's property when we got married?
I kept my name because I'm a name partner and if I changed it, my secretary/office manager was going to strangle me if she had to change everything in the office with the firm name on it. [/quote]
Exactly--I don't need to be branded like a piece of cattle.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 14, 2011 16:48:12 GMT -5
...:::"Um, because I didn't become my husband's property when we got married?":::...
Exactly. Remember, the only tradition denoting ownership that is permissible is the giving of an engagement ring. Any other tradition to her detriment, or any act implying ownership is absolutely wrong and outdated and must be purged from society.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 17:54:57 GMT -5
I kept my name because I'm a name partner and if I changed it, my secretary/office manager was going to strangle me if she had to change everything in the office with the firm name on it. We had someone at officer level in a previous employer who was one of the signatories on our annual reports. Within a year she had 3 names. First she divorced and went from using the last name of her husband (also with the company) to her birth name. Then she remarried (another company guy- hmmm) and took her new husband's name. Every time we had to change the state records. Then she had a baby and quit.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 14, 2011 19:03:37 GMT -5
I have changed my name four times (due to marriage, divorce, remarriage, etc). The last time I got married I told DH that I really didn't want to go through the hassle again. He pointed out that he wasn't wild about his wife having another man's name. I figured he had a point so went ahead and changed it, but that's the last time. It's a royal PITA.
When I first got married (in the 60's) it was nearly unheard of for a woman to keep her maiden name. A few (very few) professional women did, but it was very rare. Now, I think women who keep their names are being smart.
The kids? Yes, that's an issue. Robert Heinlein, the science fiction writer wrote about a society where the female children took the mother's name and the male children took the father's name. It sounded fair to me....
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