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Post by illinicheme on Feb 9, 2011 22:39:26 GMT -5
In my home country kids get both dad's and mom's last name and the wife is "Mary Smith of Jones" so still keep maiden name as well. Does the husband's name add a reference to the wife's maiden name?
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Post by restless on Feb 9, 2011 22:46:24 GMT -5
In my home country kids get both dad's and mom's last name and the wife is "Mary Smith of Jones" so still keep maiden name as well. Does the husband's name add a reference to the wife's maiden name? Nope. Still very "male" driven ... Mary of?? But I like that kids can have both last names, the man's last name comes first then the woman so it will still end up getting lost in the future...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 0:15:54 GMT -5
It's almost like your last name says if you are on the low or high end of the socio-economic scale. Most academic (and many professional) couples that I know choose to keep their last names and their children will have any combination of dad's last name, mom's last name, or hyphenated.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 3:51:43 GMT -5
It's almost like your last name says if you are on the low or high end of the socio-economic scale. Most academic (and many professional) couples that I know choose to keep their last names and their children will have any combination of dad's last name, mom's last name, or hyphenated. At first we wanted to go the hyphenated route for our kids but decided against it since it would be way too long. At 23 I got tired of my first name never being able to fit on any documents because it was so long. My full first name is Carl-Williams but all thru high school, college, drivers license... they could only fit Carl-Willi on all my id's and it pissed me off big time. I made Williams my middle name and Carl my first name. I do not want my kids to go thru the same with their last name... since both our last names are somewhat really long.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Feb 10, 2011 9:02:53 GMT -5
BF's Dad's middle name is his mother's maiden name. I rather like that. A friend's mom turned her maiden name into her middle name, I like that too. I'm just keeping my name.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 9:18:30 GMT -5
Someone tracking your genealogy 100 yrs from now will by trying to follow the trail back to you. Don't leave a broken link. And pls, no hyphenated names, they are really hard to track, best wishes. To me, the "broken link" occurs when a woman marries and loses her birth name. I've had a heck of a time tracking down women I knew over the years because of that; no problem with the guys. Because I never changed my name, people have found me, though. We made an interesting observation in a church graveyard on Papa Westray in the Orkney Islands- the women kept their own names, at least for the purposes of their tombstones. This would the 1800s and most of them read, "Mary X, Wife of John Y". Sorry for the tangent but I feelvery strongly about this!
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Feb 10, 2011 9:18:31 GMT -5
I decided to keep my maiden name as a second middle name - so I have now 4 names. Kind of a pain on some things.
Oddly enough, my husbands last night is a family name, although not my original last name. My name is now "Mary Jones Smith" and my mother is "Jane Smith Jones".
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Feb 10, 2011 9:30:48 GMT -5
I agree with athena . The tradtion of tombstones in my family is to do just that: Mary Smith, Wife of John Black. When doing geneology research, to get the maiden name of some of the wives from the ~1750s, we went to the graveyards and used what was on the stones.
I'm not sure what I'll do for my name yet. DBF has indicated he wants everyone to have the same last name. His siblings had ~6 different ones when he was small which caused a lot of problems for his mother/father/stepmom. He wants to be "DBF and CarolinaKat X, with children John and Mary X." ...Maybe I'll just go for 2 middle names
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Feb 10, 2011 9:43:47 GMT -5
Luckily, BF already knows I'm keeping my last name and he doesn't care. We do joke around about creating a new last name for the both of us, so our friends have started referring to us by that new name. It's dumb and funny, so I hope BF isn't serious!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 10, 2011 10:08:16 GMT -5
...:::"I guess I just don't see where you're getting this. OP hasn't posted one word that indicated to me her guy really cares about her welfare OR is contributing in a non-monetary yet significant way. It COULD be that way and just not coming across in her writing, but I would consider that unlikely. ":::...
Like I said, having BEEN that guy, I was able to read between the lines. It would appear that I turned out to be right.
...:::"I apparently made that agreement also (I don't actually remember for certain). We don't have any kids yet, but apparently they have to have DH's last name. He gets flustered if I suggest otherwise. He doesn't really have any decent reasoning why it has to be that way. I think it amounts to "society will make fun of me if my kids don't have my last name." At least his is easier to spell than mine. ":::...
We are having this "discussion" right now, and I swear sometimes it seems like DF feels she has to want things that are as least favorable to me as possible. Just like her, you are saying "he has no logical reason for it", but this is not a logical situation. I know for all the times I've had to accept DF "just wanting it because its important" as a justification for her getting her way with no logical reason, so must she on this issue for me.
Do NOT dismiss the importance of what your husband is saying about getting judged either. I made the mistake of telling one or two of my friends that DF wants her and any kids to have her name, and they asked me whether my dress was going to match her suit, since I am the woman.
It is a BIG deal. I know you think he should just be able to say "I love my wife and I don't care what society thinks" but it is NOT that simple. Its just not. Don't try to use logic, because its not logical. Just let him win on this one. Let him preserve one of the LAST things that men get to have just for being men. Lord knows you get enough a-la-carte, best of both worlds pick and choose garbage as women.
...:::"I made Williams my middle name and Carl my first name. I do not want my kids to go thru the same with their last name... since both our last names are somewhat really long. ":::...
Ahhhhhh, so does that mean your last name starts with an Au? Ca(rl) Wi(lliams) Au(something) = cawiau? I always wondered how you got your screen name.
Apparently Carl Williams is also a serial killer in Australia
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Feb 10, 2011 10:35:06 GMT -5
It is a BIG deal. I know you think he should just be able to say "I love my wife and I don't care what society thinks" but it is NOT that simple. Its just not. Don't try to use logic, because its not logical. Just let him win on this one. Let him preserve one of the LAST things that men get to have just for being men. Lord knows you get enough a-la-carte, best of both worlds pick and choose garbage as women.
I don't think you realize the impact that changing a woman's name can have. I gave my husband the consideration you are asking for, and it had a negative impact on my work environment and career. I hadn't realized how much respect and goodwill I had built up until no one knew who I was anymore. I used to joke about hyphenating (we are both polish so our names hyphenated would be truly terrifying) but if I had done so I would have a much easier time at work right now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 10:48:10 GMT -5
I don't think you realize the impact that changing a woman's name can have. Yep. Want to see how a man really feels about name-changing? Ask him to change his name if he thinks it's important that everyone in the family have the same last name. ;D
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 10, 2011 11:01:49 GMT -5
It is a BIG deal. I know you think he should just be able to say "I love my wife and I don't care what society thinks" but it is NOT that simple. Its just not. Don't try to use logic, because its not logical. Just let him win on this one. Let him preserve one of the LAST things that men get to have just for being men. Lord knows you get enough a-la-carte, best of both worlds pick and choose garbage as women. I may have misread the "I could say...." earlier in the thread, but this time you get a true /facepalm. God forbid anything should EVER inconvenience a man. God forbid the person who goes through all the biological bull$*&! should get to dictate the last name of the offspring. God forbid manly men should ever have the strength to buck up against the status quo rather than crying in the corner that they might get made fun of. Yes, there is no good solution. But "you deal with the crap because you're the woman and that's the way it's always been" shouldn't necessarily be the default answer either. (For the record, my ideal solution would have been for both of us to change our names to something new, but DH wasn't having any of that either.) ETA: And if the "you can do a lot with middle names" solution is so good, then men should be fine with the middle name being their last name.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 10, 2011 11:08:14 GMT -5
I must be either too old-fashioned or too laid back or just not care enough or too lazy. Probably the combination of all. I took my DH's last name and didn't even think twice about it and boys have his last name too. I just don't see what's the big deal is.
I just don't all that hype of "oh my G-d I am going to loose myself" "oh, why doesn't HE do it". The name doesn't make the person, the person should make the name.
Lena
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 10, 2011 11:11:46 GMT -5
And btw, neither did my mom or either of my grandma's took their husband's names.
Lena
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 10, 2011 11:14:08 GMT -5
That's very different. Same if you are published or something similar to that. But to take a stand "just because" why should I do it and not him, that's kind of silly, IMHO.
Lena
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 10, 2011 11:18:14 GMT -5
That's very different. Same if you are published or something similar to that. But to take a stand "just because" why should I do it and not him, that's kind of silly, IMHO. Lena I am published. And if the person makes the name, not the name making the person, why are men so incredibly incapable of giving up theirs?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 10, 2011 11:22:55 GMT -5
I don't know why many men feel so strongly about it, I don't think I even ask my DH why he felt so strongly about it. But they do. May be it's from generations worth of traditions, may be, like Cawaiu said to them, it's the last "manly" thing they can hold on to. I don't know.
What I do know, is that besides professional reasons, like being published, etc, NOT ONE WOMAN has been able to explain to me what is so wrong about it.
It would be interesting to hear some explanations. I just don't get the ones that sound like they come from a 2yr old stomping his feet saying "I don't wanna"!!
Lena
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 10, 2011 11:28:05 GMT -5
I don't know why many men feel so strongly about it, I don't think I even ask my DH why he felt so strongly about it. But they do. May be it's from generations worth of traditions, may be, like Cawaiu said to them, it's the last "manly" thing they can hold on to. I don't know. What I do know, is that besides professional reasons, like being published, etc, NOT ONE WOMAN has been able to explain to me what is so wrong about it. It would be interesting to hear some explanations. I just don't get the ones that sound like they come from a 2yr old stomping his feet saying "I don't wanna"!! Lena My primary reason for not changing my name was professional. But there certainly was an aspect of "I'm not doing all that paperwork if you don't have to either." What can I say - I'm stubborn that way. Never been one to do something just because the majority says I'm supposed to.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Feb 10, 2011 11:27:56 GMT -5
I agree with Lena. Luckily, BF already knows I'm keeping my last name and he doesn't care. We do joke around about creating a new last name for the both of us, so our friends have started referring to us by that new name. It's dumb and funny I would think twice about too much 'dumb & funny" in your youth (OTOH, I guess that is what youth is for, LOL) You may be creating an anomaly that you, your dh, your children, are going to live with for the next 75 yrs. Every document, school application, interview, loan application, mortgage, real estate title, car title, family trust documents, yada - are going to carry this non-traditional tag.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 10, 2011 11:31:26 GMT -5
See, to me, it was much easier spend one day doing the paperwork (changing DL, SS card) than to spend life time saying: "no, that's my DH's name, my name is this, no, that's my son's name, my name is different'
I already have heck of a time doing some things for our family, having the same last name. With all kinds of privacy and other laws, it's becoming increasingly hard. If I had to keep giving different names, I would probably never get anything done.
Anywhooo, I am not saying that one way is "right" or "wrong", just really interested to know what's the big deal is.
Lena
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Feb 10, 2011 11:32:16 GMT -5
I agree with Lena. Luckily, BF already knows I'm keeping my last name and he doesn't care. We do joke around about creating a new last name for the both of us, so our friends have started referring to us by that new name. It's dumb and funny I would think twice about too much 'dumb & funny" in your youth (OTOH, I guess that is what youth is for, LOL) You may be creating an anomaly that you, your dh, your children, are going to live with for the next 75 yrs. Every document, school application, interview, loan application, mortgage, real estate title, car title, family trust documents, yada - are going to carry this non-traditional tag. Oh Phil, did you miss my use of the word "joke"? We are joking about creating a new identity, so our friends refer to us as this joke name. Hence the dumb (I'm not changing my name to "Smash") and the funny (people call us that). I am keeping my name. And if kids were in the picture, I'd be mighty pissed because that would mean BF slept with someone else.
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 10, 2011 11:32:40 GMT -5
You may be creating an anomaly that you, your dh, your children, are going to live with for the next 75 yrs. Every document, school application, interview, loan application, mortgage, real estate title, car title, family trust documents, yada - are going to carry this non-traditional tag. Well, at least until any female children get married! Then there will be a totally different name!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 11:33:30 GMT -5
It would be interesting to hear some explanations. 1. I do have the professional reasons you cited above- well-known in a professional society and my professional network, etc. but I know you asked for other reasons. 2. You're walking away from a piece of yourself. Your name doesn't even match what's on your birth certificate. Name-changing under any other circumstances than marriage is so profound a matter that it requires (at least in the US) that you go through a judge for approval. 3. You're "lost" to old friends and family members trying to get in touch with you. Sure, you let the people around you know your name has changed, but you won't be able to inform everybody you ever knew. 4. It's just plain inconvenient. Driver's license, passport, frequent flyer accounts, bank accounts, brokerage accounts, insurance... I have other, more interesting things to do in my life than deal with bureaucracy and fill out forms and wait in line. You may say that's a one-shot deal but it's not. If you lose your birth certificate and need another one, then you have more paperwork to prove that you used to be Jane Y even though you're now Jane X so you can get the birth certificate of Jane Y. 5. No one wants to think about this, but what if the marriage ends in divorce or widowhood and you remarry? I suspect most women won't want to keep the name of a former husband when marrying a second time. Here we go again. I've dealt with the consequences of having a different last name than my husband or child in the 27 years since my first marriage. Other than hassles getting DS a passport when he was little, they're minor.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 10, 2011 11:36:01 GMT -5
OP: As I mentioned in my first post, if you want to get married, go for it, but if you don't, it is still possible to raise a child together in a committed relationship. It may take a little bit more paperwork, but its definitely doable. We can give you our experiences until the cows come home, but none of them matter as much as what you and your SO want. Just make sure you are both clear on what you each want and where you can compromise. Being in a committed relationship takes compromise on both sides, including in financial areas. I wish you both much happiness and joy.
Traditional: I think the reason a lot of "young people" take issue with the idea of "traditional" is that we feel our elders use it to try and bind us to the world they grew up in, instead of the world they created for us to grow up in. Though, funny enough, I was much more traditional when I was in my 20s then I am now. I grew up and realized that you (and your family) need to make the choices that work best for you, and who cares about anyone else or tradition says.
name change: I did change my last name, but mostly because I didn't care beyond giving up my initials (I lost my ESP when I got married), and DH didn't care. He would have changed his last name if I'd asked, but I will tell you, do not underestimate the advantage of moving up in the alphabet. I went from P to B and am loving it. Because neither DH nor I cared, I did decide to take my family's feelings in to account, and it mattered to my grandparents. I get checks from them made out to Mrs DH's name. However, anything formal comes to me as First Name, Maiden Name, Married Name, because the actual "traditional" way to do things was for women to keep their maiden names as middle names and the correct formal address was to use both. I was not exactly established in a career when I got married, though. If I had been, or if I'd been published at the time, I would have kept my maiden name. It used to be assumed that if a woman worked, she would quit when she got married. Now that doesn't happen, and it really can have a detrimental effect on your network when you change names. As for it being a probelm having kids with different last names than the parents, that stopped. It was a problem until schools (and other instituions) finally figured out that parents got divorced and remarried, or whatever. Now, no one bats an eyelash when a parent has a different last name than a child. And, (flame away) but I believe that if you feel your wife not having your last name somehow robs you of your masculinity, then you're not very secure in said masculinity to begin with. If you're not secure enough to celebrate and support your wife inb eing the most successful and amazing person she can be, regardless of what her last name is, her earning power in relation to you, etc, then she needs a new husband. This works the other way around, too. If she can't celebrate and support you, regardless of name, earning power, etc, you need a new wife. And please don't use geneaology research as an excuse. My non-royalty family line has been traced as far back as a Marian, in Sherwood, in the 1100s. (My brother called me from Australia to share this with me.) Geneaology research past the date of public records is a crap shoot. It all becomes best guesses and needles in haystacks. (Its different with royalty because their marriages and births were public record even when no one else's was.)
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 10, 2011 11:37:46 GMT -5
Anywhooo, I am not saying that one way is "right" or "wrong", just really interested to know what's the big deal is. Who knows. All I know is that I started crying when my dad called me a few days after the wedding and said "Hello Mrs. DH's Last Name!" I agonized for days. Many tears shed. Finally decided that changing my name just wasn't for me. Believe me, I'm well aware of how obnoxious the road of non-conformity is, particularly with regard to names.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 11:42:44 GMT -5
I think it's going to be a lot more common to not to change as your last name. Women are getting married later in life after establishing their own careers. Friends of mine who have published papers or had their name somewhere on research aren't going to change their last names - people won't realize it was them!
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 10, 2011 11:46:04 GMT -5
illinicheme: It took me weeks to remember to change my voicemail at work after I got married, but I finally did. Then my mom called and got it, and the first words of her message were "That's the wrong name." It was so cute.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 10, 2011 11:53:23 GMT -5
I can't WAIT to change my name and it IS because I got a divorce. But I still wish I had kept my Dad's name, my maiden name, to begin with.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 10, 2011 11:55:49 GMT -5
Athena, I guess I just don't buy your reasons 2,3,4. Really, you could stop at #1, bc like I said, that one is completely understandable. #5 - weeeellllll, I don't know - if I ever have to get a divorce, I don't know if "name changing" would be something that I would be THAT concerned about. But I don't know, so can't speak about it. So, as for reason 2, - I can not understand how a person can loose a part of himself bc the name is different. Seriously? I am who I am, whether you call me Lena or that witch from YM boards or anything else that comes to mind. When I was a kid, I didn't like my first name, so when I went away to camp, I told everyone that my name was different. I made friends with lots of kids and we all wrote messages to each other in notebooks. That was about 20 yrs ago. I still have it and it doesn't bother me at all that messages are written to "jane". I KNOW who they are for, so that's all that matters. And I am still me. Reason 3 - I am not going to make decisions based on what my friends might or might not find difficult in the future. And with today's "connections", I've found people that I went to school with on a DIFFERENT CONTINENT and they found me, married, with a different name and all. So, that's one of those "where there is a will..." kind of deals to me. I already addressed #4 in my previous post. For ME, it was much easier to deal with one time paperwork to change it vs a lifetime of paperworks that had different names, etc. Lena
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