8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2011 13:12:39 GMT -5
...:::"To use my MMORPG parlance, /facepalm.":::...
illinicheme, you omitted key parts of my quote, which hides my reasonably valid point.
I was illustrating Phil's "verbal fencing" point by responding to the "all I see are men using women" rant with an "all I see are women using men". Neither party accepts the others logic, but the discussion is impeded because each side is more concerned with "not losing".
Discussions in which both parties focus on "not losing" guarantee that EVERYONE loses.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 7, 2011 13:13:33 GMT -5
...:::"OP, determine what YOU want and what you truly feel will make you happy. If that's a ring, tell him. If it's a proposal because he realizes you're the one and not because of the baby, tell him that too. He CAN'T read your mind or heart.":::... This is the best approach. Women are HORRIBLE at telling people what they want (though amazingly adept at telling people what they don't want). Eh, I have to say both genders are pretty bad at directly saying what they want in a manner the other gender can understand it. It ain't always easy that's for sure...
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 7, 2011 13:41:25 GMT -5
There has been no fear in our relationship. It has been a very easy going one. We just haven't necessarily been motivated to have conversations about the future. I understand this might come across as odd given our ages and length of our relationship. He never officially moved in, just starting staying at my house more, gradually never went back to his and let his friends rent his primary house furnished. His mail still doesn't even come to my house. He doesn't pay anything to live in your house, because it doesn't cost anything. Meanwhile he rents his house to his friend. He owns another rental house as well. I don't accept that a 33 year old landlord really, honestly, genuinely believes that it costs you NOTHING for him to live in your house. He is taking advantage of you and he knows it. You have contributed, because you have failed to stand up for yourself. Based on what you have written, he sounds very selfish. Selfish people do not make good partners, IMO.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 7, 2011 14:05:51 GMT -5
Yeah because WWBG, I'm the ONLY one that said she's getting the short end of the stick. You have such an issue with me and it's SO obvious. I happen not to be a man-hater but I have been USED and I recognize the TOO NICE/DON'T ROCK THE BOAT syndrome when I see it. As far as WIR, they are more sympathetic as well as being tough loving when necessary. Not a bad thing and maybe more of the thing the OP needs. It isn't a MONEY issue at all really, it's a RESPECT issue and that's more a WIR alley. She's been supporting a boyfriend and now will be supporting a SURPRISE baby so money isn't the issue at all. Her lack of relationship is. What she wanted from her 12 hour conversation was a marriage proposal and a committment from someone she thought was a man, her man. What she got was wishy-washy. If she was okay with this whole situation, she wouldn't have come here to begin with. Somewhere, down deep, she knows she's is getting the shaft and not getting what she wants/needs/expects out of this relationship. He sure is so why shouldn't she?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2011 17:03:45 GMT -5
...:::"You have such an issue with me and it's SO obvious.":::...
Its more that I have an issue with your "every woman who does one nice thing for a man is a sucker who is getting used" posts, just as I'm sure you've had issues with the things I used to post.
...:::"I happen not to be a man-hater but I have been USED and I recognize the TOO NICE/DON'T ROCK THE BOAT syndrome when I see it.":::...
A funny thing about the so-called "red flags". ANYTHING can be a red flag if you want it to be. I'm not saying the guy doesn't have a pretty sweet deal going on, I just don't think he is outright using her, and is intending to walk. Even if he was, he's stuck now. If this gets ugly, she could probably cost him double what he's cost her over the years.
...:::"As far as WIR, they are more sympathetic as well as being tough loving when necessary.":::...
Nice backpaddle after the you took on WIR earlier.
...:::"She's been supporting a boyfriend and now will be supporting a SURPRISE baby so money isn't the issue at all.":::...
It has yet to be said that the boyfriend will continue to get a free ride. It is also funny for you to say this isn't about money, but then declare that the boyfriend gets a free ride just because he isn't paying. For all you know, he could pull his weight in domestic duties.
If it were a woman who was contributing labor instead of money, and a man said "she doesn't make any money therefore she doesn't contribute", the board would explode with backlash.
...:::"What she wanted from her 12 hour conversation was a marriage proposal and a committment from someone she thought was a man, her man.":::...
I don't believe the OP has said that -- it was the others who put that in her mouth. The OP (like me) is of a time who realizes that the farce marriage has become in this country, does not a commitment make by itself. It is people who stay together out of love, not just a legal obligation.
...:::"If she was okay with this whole situation, she wouldn't have come here to begin with.":::...
The baby was a game changer though. I believe she said that earlier.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 17:04:09 GMT -5
I happen not to be a man-hater but I have been USED and I recognize the TOO NICE/DON'T ROCK THE BOAT syndrome when I see it. <snip> Somewhere, down deep, she knows she's is getting the shaft and not getting what she wants/needs/expects out of this relationship. Your post was a bit vehement but it was right on. I also settled for too little for too long. Unfortunately, we nice/don't-rock-the-boat-types can take too long to realize we've been taken advantage of, and then all he*l breaks loose. And of course plenty of damage, financial and otherwise, has been done in the meantime. One hazard of being independent, self-supporting and financially solvent is that you can also end up supporting people who take advantage of you. From my ivory tower here, I can see that as soon as the BF moved in and started getting rent from his friend, he could have said, "well, Honey, since I'm getting rent now I guess it's time I helped contribute to your mortgage". He didn't. Not a good sign, but it probably would have gone over my head 25 years ago, too. No matter how self-sufficient you are, you have to weigh what the other partner brings to the table. Not just money, which isn't the OP's primary need, but emotional support, help around the house, and a feeling of partnership. I stand by my original suggestion that the OP and her partner get counseling so they can each figure out what they want out of life and how to best take care of the child.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 7, 2011 17:09:50 GMT -5
Wow, I appreciate everyone's thoughts on my situation. We looked at rings yesterday and I made a doctor's appointment for tomorrow. I did ask that we keep our situation just between the two of us for now until we really have a solid game plan. He really does seem excited and wants to tell his family. I'll keep everyone updated
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 7, 2011 17:13:10 GMT -5
Good news, GD. I hope everything works out well for you guys and look forward to the updates.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2011 17:14:14 GMT -5
Glad to hear it. Even more glad to see certain theories proven wrong.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 7, 2011 17:14:56 GMT -5
It's great that he is excited about the baby. But how is he excited about sharing finances and stopping his free living?
Lena
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 7, 2011 17:17:09 GMT -5
WWGB- your projection/interpretation does seem to have a lot more accuracy to my actual situation than some other posts, but I understand people can only react based on the information I provide and their personal experiences. You really hit the nail on the head with several of your sentences.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2011 17:22:28 GMT -5
...:::"WWGB- your projection/interpretation does seem to have a lot more accuracy to my actual situation than some other posts, but I understand people can only react based on the information I provide and their personal experiences. You really hit the nail on the head with several of your sentences.":::...
Much appreciated gooddecisions. My situation is such that I am a combination of the roles played by both you and by your BF. I'm the primary supporter to someone who could be considered mooching (though now we are taking a much more team-based approach -- live off mine, save hers for our long term goals) but I am also the man who has known I wanted to marry her very early on, even if we didn't "codify" such until recently.
If you want to talk in private, feel free to send me a PM.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 7, 2011 17:28:05 GMT -5
That's great news! I hope things continue to go well for all of you.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Feb 7, 2011 17:56:00 GMT -5
We looked at rings yesterday and I made a doctor's appointment for tomorrow. I did ask that we keep our situation just between the two of us for now until we really have a solid game plan. He really does seem excited and wants to tell his family. I'll keep everyone updated Awesome! As for finances, both of you have unusually good money skills, your separate success proves it - and combining those skills into a family unit will bring focus to your common goals. One thing that we did >40 yrs ago - we made The Plan. Select a financial goal that you would like to have in 30 yrs - maybe a $20M NW? That would require your current $750k plus about $10,000/yr at 11% for 30 years. (A modest goal for you guys considering your time horizon and your income stream). Then, with the knowledge that you are on track to have $20M in your 60's, you can enjoy spending everything else that you earn. That defuses nearly all money arguments that damage so many marriages. Aside: We did the calculations with a slide rule & sketched the graphs on a yellow pad - in 1969 the hand held scientific calculator had not yet been invented, and PC's were 20 yrs in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 19:35:01 GMT -5
I want to say in GD's defense that it is easier than you think to get in that situation. I did with my last BF. I actually sold my house and bought a slightly more expensive one that was closer to where each of us worked. He rented his house to his son. For the first couple of years (2004 and 2005), he actually only paid me $300 a month but bought his separate groceries. I bought all the food that I cooked for both of us plus household supplies, etc. He upped it to $500 when I started taking some graduate courses.
I remember watching my $$$ closely at the end of the month while he bought rather freely. I also remember thinking how nice it would be if the situations were reversed. I would have had a couple of thousand left over, even on my teacher's salary, every month.
But it wasn't his fault so much as it was mine. I didn't know how to talk about money. I still don't. My new DH doesn't know how much the house payment is.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 7, 2011 19:38:29 GMT -5
...because I asked him. When we first talked about it forever ago he didn't have renters and felt like my bills were the same regardless of whether he lived there. I just haven't been demanding enough of him and live a pretty comfortable lifestyle so I never made it an issue. I feel certain he would have given me whatever I asked if I had just been more direct about it and he's commented before about me needing to work on being more forthright about my needs. Thus, I took care of the bills at my place and he took care of the bills at his places. Yeah, but one of the many benefits of a live-in relationship is the idea that you get to split expenses. I live with DBF, and we split a $1,370 apartment. While it's true that if it were just me, I would live in a comparable apartment and be paying for all expenses myself, that doesn't mean that he's off the hook for his half of the rent-- because it's not just me. Honestly, your situation would scare the... something... out of me, plus my resentment level would be so high at this point that I doubt the relationship could be salvaged. I often wonder if so many marriages end in divorce over financial matters because they start out like this. DBF and I are on the same page with long term goals, how to share finances when/if we're married, how we want to handle childcare when/if we have kids, we know exactly how much the other makes and what our expenses are-- and we STILL have financial issues! If we weren't even on the same page with those basic things, I think my head would explode. There is no way in the world that I would consider moving in with someone without those basic ducks being lined up in a nice neat row-- because even when they are, I'm discovering, there will be endless issues. When they're not, you're starting with at least two strikes against you. That being said, my comfort level is 100% irrelevant, because we're talking about YOUR comfort level. What's the bottom line here? Do you love this guy? Is it worth it to you not to rock the boat if you guys can stay happy? I applaud you for not wanting to take advantage of him, and you sound like a very nice person, but I think the pendulum is swinging REALLY far in the other direction. Frankly, I'd go further than other posters have-- I think you're getting screwed, and I would be VERY wary of signing on for parenthood with this guy.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 7, 2011 19:54:36 GMT -5
Wow! You all have either been burned big time or you all are just the sky is falling type. I pray that money NEVER becomes more important than anything else to me. See, it's not that money is more IMPORTANT than anything else. It's that money IMPACTS almost EVERYTHING. This is why I get annoyed when people say they "don't care about money" (especially in the context of an excuse for their current lifestyle of too much debt / too little income). Guess what-- you don't need to care about money. The world cares MORE than enough for both of you. Everyone, no matter who they are and no matter how delusional they want to be, is seriously impacted by money. It's the way our society functions. Ergo, "money problems" almost always indicate much deeper issues-- with relationships, with personality issues, with mental disorders, with past baggage, etc. And the way someone treats money in a relationship says very, very, very important things about his or her character. In this case, the boyfriend's handling of "their" money indicates seriously negative things about his character. The money itself doesn't matter as much as what the money situation says about a person. And looking out for one's own financial interests doesn't make one a gold-digger. It makes one smart.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 7, 2011 20:23:42 GMT -5
I really like what Phil said about a communal fortune being built.
Yeah-- IF they get married and it all works out dandy for her. As it stands now, he could walk away with a significant portion of "her" assets and be sitting pretty, and she'd have no recourse whatsoever.
WWBG, I'm surprised at you. This is almost 180 degrees from the advice you used to give. I specifically remember you responding to threads like this with much more of a "WHAT?? But if you guys split up, you'll just be out the money" tone to your posts.
Are you giving different advice now because you trust DF more than you used to?
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Post by bobbysgirl on Feb 7, 2011 21:08:03 GMT -5
This is beginning to have the markings of a terry thread. hmmmm
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Feb 8, 2011 11:43:13 GMT -5
I thought "that's not what Phil would do" /quote] This is the highlight of the thread for me - what would Phil do? I want to get that on a bumper sticker.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Feb 9, 2011 12:49:14 GMT -5
WWPD? I love it.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 9, 2011 16:15:41 GMT -5
...:::"WWBG, I'm surprised at you. This is almost 180 degrees from the advice you used to give. I specifically remember you responding to threads like this with much more of a "WHAT?? But if you guys split up, you'll just be out the money" tone to your posts.":::...
Not entirely. I identify a lot with this situation because *I* am/was the guy who always knew marriage was on the to-do list, when a lot of others probably questioned whether it would ever happen. I believe that this guy, (like I do about DF, in spite of our... challenges), really cares about the OP, and that he knows that a legal certificate and expensive jewelry does not a relationship make.
So he, and her in turn have to deal with everyone else chipping away at their happiness and planting seeds of doubt because their time lines worked differently. That is lose/lose. He gets in trouble for something he didn't do.
As I've examined situations in my own relationship, I can see the element of the OP also not saying something sooner. Southernsusanna also hits it dead on: it is WAY easier than you think to slide into a pattern that you think is temporary, only to wake up one day and go "wow... this has gone on for so long!"
What I find ESPECIALLY funny is, all the times on the old board when I discussed evaluating contributions in a relationship, and taking a stand if you thought you were getting shafted, would get lambasted because it was "keeping score" and relationships where you keep score are ones doomed to fail.
In fact I specifically recall a thread I started, called "another perspective on yours/mine/ours" where I said something about taking a stand and demanding a fairer split (whether financial or in effort-based contributions like chores) if you were getting shortchanged. It got ripped, to, SHREDS.
Now if the OP was complaining about (or is not revealing) red flags like suspicious friends of the opposite sex, or unexplained absences, my response would be different.
But as I said to the OP, I see a lot of myself in this story, and I think its going to be OK.
...:::"Are you giving different advice now because you trust DF more than you used to? ":::...
FWIW, DF's money attitudes have become much more team oriented. Do I wish they had been that way from day one? Absolutely. Can I do anything about it now? Nothing other than be thankful its finally better.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 9, 2011 18:18:58 GMT -5
Not entirely. I identify a lot with this situation because *I* am/was the guy who always knew marriage was on the to-do list, when a lot of others probably questioned whether it would ever happen. I believe that this guy, (like I do about DF, in spite of our... challenges), really cares about the OP, and that he knows that a legal certificate and expensive jewelry does not a relationship make.
So he, and her in turn have to deal with everyone else chipping away at their happiness and planting seeds of doubt because their time lines worked differently. That is lose/lose. He gets in trouble for something he didn't do.
I guess I just don't see where you're getting this. OP hasn't posted one word that indicated to me her guy really cares about her welfare OR is contributing in a non-monetary yet significant way. It COULD be that way and just not coming across in her writing, but I would consider that unlikely.
Without that evidence, I just can't assume that everything is fine and dandy. So many alarm bells went off as I read this thread I felt like a fire department.
One of the most telling things for me is the way OP described her passive approach toward their future. It's one thing to live together and combine finances and act like a married couple with no intention of ever getting married. It's another thing entirely for one party to WANT marriage and have the whole thing turn into a perpetual "engagement" with no ring or date, just a placating conversation every few months where the other party insists that it will happen someday. The latter is how I perceive this relationship.
She doesn't seem to want to say so in so many words, and I can't blame her, but I think she's wanted to be married from the get-go, and he's been the one balking. Since she sensed it was a touchy subject, she never pushed it. Thus: four years in, and now a baby, and he still hasn't even moved in with her but he's totally fine absconding with her resources in such a way that she has no recourse if they break up? Something smells terrible with that scenario!
In fact I specifically recall a thread I started, called "another perspective on yours/mine/ours" where I said something about taking a stand and demanding a fairer split (whether financial or in effort-based contributions like chores) if you were getting shortchanged. It got ripped, to, SHREDS.
Not by me. I'm gender-neutral when it comes to not getting shortchanged. If anything, I look out for DBF's interests even more than my own because he's never been all that good with money and he needs someone he loves watching his back. Whereas I'll be fine even if I end up paying extra on this or that once in awhile. Meanwhile, he watches out for me in areas where I have blind spots very similar to his monetary blind spots.
To me, that's what love is. Watching out for your partner, especially in areas where they're particularly vulnerable and you're not.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 9, 2011 18:48:56 GMT -5
No, I have not wanted to be married- as I stated, neither of us were on a fast track. Believe it or not, not all women want to get married. For many reasons, I do not want to bring a child into the world without being married. We have been 100% committed for our entire relationship and have not ever had even one break-up. I knew I would be flamed for my living situation, but the point of me sharing it was trying to get to the bottom of the concern about being a "common-potter". We are now discussing if we want to make this official before or after the baby is born, but I don't want to rush into any decisions.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 9, 2011 18:55:17 GMT -5
No, I have not wanted to be married- as I stated, neither of us were on a fast track. Believe it or not, not all women want to get married. For many reasons, I do not want to bring a child into the world without being married. We have been 100% committed for our entire relationship and have not ever had even one break-up. I knew I would be flamed for my living situation, but the point of me sharing it was trying to get to the bottom of the concern about being a "common-potter". We are now discussing if we want to make this official before or after the baby is born, but I don't want to rush into any decisions. May I ask, then, why you refer to him as DF? If you guys didn't care about being married, then why did an "engagement" ever come into the picture? What's the point of being engaged if you don't intend to marry anytime soon? Why wasn't he simply DBF? To me, that implies that marriage mattered just a little bit more to you than you were willing to admit. I'm not flaming your living situation, and I applaud you for not wanting to rush something that may not be right, but you have to be honest with yourself about what you want. Notwithstanding the recent development, I just don't see either one of you sticking up for YOU in this relationship.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Feb 9, 2011 19:44:13 GMT -5
We are now discussing if we want to make this official before or after the baby is born, but I don't want to rush into any decisions. Go ahead, rush. LOL - when did the word "traditional" morph into a pejorative among the young and the trendy? Just do it! - your lives are locked together for life at this point in any case, your DNA is now spreading - child, grandchildren, their spouses, and so on. Someone tracking your genealogy 100 yrs from now will by trying to follow the trail back to you. Don't leave a broken link. And pls, no hyphenated names, they are really hard to track, best wishes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 20:55:17 GMT -5
We are now discussing if we want to make this official before or after the baby is born, but I don't want to rush into any decisions. Go ahead, rush. LOL - when did the word "traditional" morph into a pejorative among the young and the trendy? Just do it! - your lives are locked together for life at this point in any case, your DNA is now spreading - child, grandchildren, their spouses, and so on. Someone tracking your genealogy 100 yrs from now will by trying to follow the trail back to you. Don't leave a broken link. And pls, no hyphenated names, they are really hard to track, best wishes. My wife kept her last name but we agreed that our kids will have my last name. OP, congrats on the baby and wishing you the best. I wish my wife and I are in the same financial situation as you when we are 33... you guys are doing great financially.
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 9, 2011 21:56:28 GMT -5
Go ahead, rush. LOL - when did the word "traditional" morph into a pejorative among the young and the trendy? Just do it! - your lives are locked together for life at this point in any case, your DNA is now spreading - child, grandchildren, their spouses, and so on. Someone tracking your genealogy 100 yrs from now will by trying to follow the trail back to you. Don't leave a broken link. And pls, no hyphenated names, they are really hard to track, best wishes. I'm guessing the word "traditional" morph into a pejorative for some young people when they realized that they had more choices to live a happy life than the fairly limited SAHM, 2.5 kids, and a white picket fence. Not everyone wants the same things, and "traditional" represents a fairly small sliver of possible ways to live a life. As for genealogy, why are hyphenated names or women who don't change their names any more difficult to track? You need maiden names anyway to track the maternal ancestors, so I don't really see how it's any different?
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 9, 2011 22:00:30 GMT -5
we agreed that our kids will have my last name. I apparently made that agreement also (I don't actually remember for certain). We don't have any kids yet, but apparently they have to have DH's last name. He gets flustered if I suggest otherwise. He doesn't really have any decent reasoning why it has to be that way. I think it amounts to "society will make fun of me if my kids don't have my last name." At least his is easier to spell than mine.
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Post by restless on Feb 9, 2011 22:34:40 GMT -5
we agreed that our kids will have my last name. I apparently made that agreement also (I don't actually remember for certain). We don't have any kids yet, but apparently they have to have DH's last name. He gets flustered if I suggest otherwise. He doesn't really have any decent reasoning why it has to be that way. I think it amounts to "society will make fun of me if my kids don't have my last name." At least his is easier to spell than mine. In my home country kids get both dad's and mom's last name and the wife is "Mary Smith of Jones" so still keep maiden name as well.
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