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Post by debtheaven on Feb 6, 2011 20:01:45 GMT -5
The OP has stated that he has concerns about keeping his assets separate so that she has no claim on them.
I have NO problem with pre-nups. But this "bugs" me too because he wouldn't have those assets without their current living situation. The part about asking about being a SAHD bugs me too. Especially since he says they need to earn as much as they can while they can, and he earns much more.
Sometimes people need some time to get their bearings, I hope this is one of them, and that everything will work out well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 20:04:23 GMT -5
I think you avoid having these important discussions (money, commitment, household expenses) because you are afraid of what his response might be. You've gone out of your way to make this relationship incredibly easy for him: no demands of money, sharing or your future. I've done this when I'm pretty sure the other person will walk otherwise.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 6, 2011 20:09:44 GMT -5
I think Anne is spot on. But hopefully your BF will rise to the occasion. You can have a wonderful future together, and some people just need more time than others.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 20:22:37 GMT -5
I hope so too - like others have pointed out they have the potential to build a great future for themselves and their son. Good luck!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2011 20:25:26 GMT -5
I'm curious as to why you brought an innocent party into this equation? To "force" his hand/this conversation that is how many years overdue? I'm glad that all your bills are covered by your paycheck but I am sorry, it says VOLUMES about a guy that is willing for no good reason whatsoever to live for free off you while building his portfolio. What EXACTLY were you hoping to accomplish with any of this? For us to say "congrats?" For us to say "You are being used?"
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Post by justwhoever on Feb 6, 2011 20:58:44 GMT -5
Wow! You all have either been burned big time or you all are just the sky is falling type.
I pray that money NEVER becomes more important than anything else to me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2011 21:06:57 GMT -5
Uh, this is YM not WIR. If you want applause for foolish decisions, there's other forums. Obviously the OP realizes there's an issue or she wouldn't have bothered posting. Now it's time for her to defend him/her choices/whatever. Guess what? It IS all about money. He's lived for free and now she has a baby and no financial and a half-assed emotional commitment. I'm sure she was hoping to not have a freakin 12 hour "conversation" but a sincere marriage proposal and hoped a baby would get it. It's time and past time for the "boyfriend" to step up to the plate.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 6, 2011 21:11:29 GMT -5
Wow! You all have either been burned big time or you all are just the sky is falling type.
Yes, of course! All 64 posts from us.
ETA: So what is YOUR take on this situation?
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 6, 2011 21:14:17 GMT -5
I'm curious as to why you brought an innocent party into this equation?
That said, Zib, I have to say, that comment was just not nice. I'm sure the OP is neither the first nor the last person to have an "oops" baby and welcome it with open arms, and (since this YM) income / money in the bank.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 6, 2011 22:04:34 GMT -5
There has been no fear in our relationship. It has been a very easy going one. We just haven't necessarily been motivated to have conversations about the future. I understand this might come across as odd given our ages and length of our relationship. He never officially moved in, just starting staying at my house more, gradually never went back to his and let his friends rent his primary house furnished. His mail still doesn't even come to my house.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 6, 2011 22:24:11 GMT -5
You know, the more you "explain" about him, the worse he comes off. Why WOULD he be motivated to have any serious conversations, money or otherwise, when life has been pretty sweet for the last 3 yrs. He had a free home, free food, free utilities, kept saving money (bc if he wasn't on $140K/yr and no expenses - that's a whole other conversation). He obviously didn't have any burning desires to marry you and you never brought it up. Again, sweet deal.
I could be wrong and I really hope I am, but I have major serious doubts that he was just "building assets for both of you" like Phil said. Nowhere in your posts you said anything about your BF mentioning you in his future plans, money or otherwise.
As I've said a few times before, if you are OK with, then no problem. But you might want to take a "minute", step back and look at the last 4 yrs a bit more objectively.
Lena
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 22:25:10 GMT -5
There has been no fear in our relationship. It has been a very easy going one. It does sound like it has been very easy going, because you never speak up for yourself. -You would like to be married before you have a child -You wold like to be a common potter -You would have liked him to pay some of the expenses Yet here we are. My relationship would be easy if I completely deferred to what my DH wanted too, but I doubt I would be happy.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Feb 7, 2011 0:54:37 GMT -5
I don't think that anyone here wants anything but the best for you. I'm glad that your circumstances have prompted you to have a conversation about these things.
That said, you started the thread about 'finally' having a conversation and later admitting that you believed that he had commitment issues. You may be 'easygoing', but he is more 'easygoing', and it is clear that it is of some concern to you. Please verify that things are what you think they are, and then make the best decision for you and your child. Best of luck with your future.
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1wisdomseeker
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Post by 1wisdomseeker on Feb 7, 2011 5:19:06 GMT -5
Nobody's going to like me for saying this but what's the old phrase, "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" If he's a real man he'll have a ring. If he's not, he'll have an excuse. I'd say that after this amount of time with him he should be able to answer a simple "either/or" question. I really do hope it all works out! Please keep us posted as I am interested in how it all works out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 7:44:57 GMT -5
It's possible to have a happy marriage with stable finances even if you've got trust issues- I've got them after a first marriage to an irresponsible spendthrift. A common pot would drive me crazy. DH is wise enough and laid-back enough to understand that. What makes it work is that we reached an agreement on who pays for what, out of what accounts, that makes us both happy, and our financial goals are being met. We've also got common values when it comes to spending, saving and giving away.
OP, since you seem open to advice on the non-financial side, I'll offer some. I was in your position, more or less, in 1984. Thirty years old, good solid job, living with BF who had bought me en engagement ring but kept postponing the wedding date, got pregnant. (Diaphragms don't work when you leave them in the drawer. ;D) We did "the right thing". We got married. Except it wasn't the right thing. Pushing a relationship to marriage because of a pregnancy isn't going to give the marriage any better chance of success.
The two of you should invest in counseling before you make any drastic moves. It's better never to marry at all than to marry and divorce. There are ways to keep your partner in your child's life without marrying him. Kids need a father- I can tell you that from first-hand experience because my Ex slunk off after the divorce and DS is the wonderful young man he is only because of DH and the other good men in the family. Oh, yeah- you're much better off single tax-wise. You're Single Head of Household when you have child but no husband. I owed a lot more taxes after I remarried. Don't you love family-friendly government policy?
So, take some time, get some outside advice, and think about what works for you (as well as your partner and your baby). If you go through the process and decide you do after all want to marry him, you won't be the first couple whose child attended the wedding.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 7, 2011 9:32:20 GMT -5
It's amazing how many "oops" babies there are out there especially when someone is passive agressive.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Feb 7, 2011 11:10:20 GMT -5
We did "the right thing". We got married. Except it wasn't the right thing. Pushing a relationship to marriage because of a pregnancy isn't going to give the marriage any better chance of success. Maybe not a better chance - but not a worse chance either. Lots of 'some day' marriages are triggered by a pregnancy, it often assigns a date to a decision that was forthcoming anyway. In any case, they are going to be co-parents for 22 years and beyond - and then co--grandparents for another 22 yrs after that - in other words, they are going to be 'together', one way or another, for the rest of their lives. Kinda funny - gen x'rs are trying to prove that they are trendy, independent, and have no need for the opposite sex or conventional marriage contracts. And the Gays are vigorously lobbying for marriage. The Grass is Greener? (I wonder if Gieco can make that into a commercial - like Two in The Bush?)
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Urban Chicago
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Post by Urban Chicago on Feb 7, 2011 11:30:35 GMT -5
Do you want to be a Homemaker? Does he? For most people not yet married, this is a far-off thought when they merge finances, but for you it's a big issue. I'm not going to push you to quit your job or anything, but you really need to discuss this with DF, and all the expenses related to that decision need to be dealt with by both of you.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 7, 2011 11:32:21 GMT -5
I work from home so I've been entertaining the thought of a nanny/sitter coming in from 9-5 M-F at least the first year. I don't know how easy that is to find though. I should be able to get 12 weeks off. We've really been discussing a lot this weekend and not all decisions have to be made immediately. I'm not sure what you meant by, at least the first year? Did you mean, then that your child would go to a sitters house or daycare center? Also-I would actually suggest that you look into child care immediately. In my city, for good childcare centers there's an 9 month waiting list for infant spots. I know you said you wanted a nanny, but I'm sure it will take some time to find one for that as well. I'd also suggest that you speak to a lawyer. If you aren't going to get married, you probably should have a plan for what you are facing if you and your boyfriend break up, like custody and child support. Do you guys have wills? Again, that's something else I'd put on the to-do list (actually before painting the nursery) if you aren't going to get married.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 11:40:21 GMT -5
I'm sorry. I know that I am an outsider, but I wouldn't believe that he makes $140k. I don't know any men with the drive and ambition to make that money who would be willing to give it up to stay at home the first time it was discussed. Combine this with not paying any bills, and I see serious warning signs. Trust but verify. I have known people like that. The salary was just what people in that position made, they didn't do anything really special to get there. The work had a high burn out rate though, so some would give it up to do other things, even stay home with the kids.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2011 11:48:03 GMT -5
...:::"I think he's maybe a little worried that combining everything would mean completely losing independence. But, it's not exactly like we're living month to month barely getting by- so I just don't see having to check with each other on every purchase. :::...
DF and I both agree the above is like death. Neither of us want to deal with the politics involved in such an arrangement. I don't want to have to approve her "wasting money" on 7 more teenage vampire romance novels that are exactly like the 20 she has on her shelf, just so she can't refuse my request to "waste money" joining the bacon of the month club.
...:::"Also, he may have been in a relationship where the financial rules changed as the relationship became more serious.":::...
This is only an issue if the rules change to his detriment.
...:::"So what you are saying is that he has been living with you and having sex with you, you are pregnant now and want more from him, right? Are you okay if not standing up for yourself means things just continue the way they are going?":::...
Ignore Zibazinski's man hating diatribes. Things do not always work out poorly for everyone. You said you are in a circle where people aren't rushing to get married. The older among us can't always appreciate this.
...:::"We're in VA.":::...
Woo, me too! VA rules. We should go bowling and talk crap about MD.
...:::"I thought "that's not what Phil would do" but instead said that would probably be a mistake.":::...
Hahhahahaahah! One day I'm going to blurt something like this out to DF, and she'll look at me quizzically.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 11:52:04 GMT -5
...:::" Woo, me too! VA rules. We should go bowling and talk crap about MD. Hey! I knew you VA people didn't like us. There is no reason that I95 going into VA should be in a perpetual state of construction.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 7, 2011 11:55:44 GMT -5
"I just haven't been demanding enough of him and live a pretty comfortable lifestyle so I never made it an issue. I feel certain he would have given me whatever I asked if I had just been more direct about it and he's commented before about me needing to work on being more forthright about my needs. Thus, I took care of the bills at my place and he took care of the bills at his places."
I basically lived with DH for 2+ years before we got married. I paid no rent and rarely helped out with the bills, other than groceries (I was paying off CCs, which he knew and thought was a better use of my money than paying him rent), HOWEVER, we had repeated conversations on the subject.
OP, determine what YOU want and what you truly feel will make you happy. If that's a ring, tell him. If it's a proposal because he realizes you're the one and not because of the baby, tell him that too. He CAN'T read your mind or heart.
You also need to realize that you're going to HAVE to deal with making waves - you're going to be a parent and making waves is part of the job description. We have 2 toddlers and while I too prefer not to make waves, saying "No." to toddlers has to happen. It's not fun, it's not always easy and you may as well start teaching yourself how to make waves now.
Congratulations on the baby! I hope it's healthy and happy.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 7, 2011 12:13:52 GMT -5
zib: I take slight offense to the "This is YM not WIR" comment. Over at WIR, we are more undertanding that bad decisions get made and are willing to help people get past that, but we don't generally encourage folks to make bad decisions.
That said, OP, before you have your next discussion with your baby daddy, you need to decide what it is you want, and from that list, what's negotiable. Lay out your ideal, but know what you could live with. AND he needs to do the same, completely independent of you. Forget this "whatever you want", because invariably, that will leave someone unhappy. There things he wants (like keeping finances at least somewhat separate), so he needs to think about this too, not just you. Once you both have your lists - dream and reality - sit down and see what you can put together that's closest to each of your dreams, without violating anyone's reality. Marriage hasn't been on your radar up to this point. That's fine. Believe it or not (and I am a happily married, common potter) you can have a good long term relationship with someone with kids involved and no marriage certificate. It's not my preferred way of doing things, and there are some additional hoops to jump through, but its possible. So start with that. Then, money. You always figured that when you got married, you'd be a common potter, but since you hadn't even been thinking about marriage before now, you've been happy as independent operators (to stick with that columns terminology). He definitely prefers the IO sitiuation to the CP. Its been informal and neither of you like to rock the boat, so its stayed at the status quo. But a baby upsets everyone's status quo, so now's the time to rock the boat as much as needed. If we wants to remain IOs, then there need to be some changes. You need to discuss equitable distribution of the bills. He needs to start paying rent, utilities, and part of the food bills. He needs to know what portion of the baby bills he's going to be responsible for. And all of this should be based on his income, regardless of investments. If he wants to be IOs, and he wants to keep his positive ROI his alone, then he needs to understand that any negative ROI is his alone as well. The same goes if you go the Sometime Sharer route, if he chooses to keep his investments completely seperate. Remember, that whatever you each set aside as "yours" is your responsibility. That does include your house, BUT it doesn't let him live there for free. He needs to pay whatever the going rent for the area is. If, as Phil suggests, and I like Phile and really hope he is right on this, your baby daddy has been thinking of the investments as growing equity for the both of you, then this is a CP situation, and he just hasn't wrapped his mind around it yet. Given both of your assets, this is one of the time I might suggest buying a new house together. Keep your place (like he's kept his) as an investment. It can then be "yours" in an IO or SS situation, but then there would be a definite place that was "ours" or "the family's".
You seem happy about the baby, so I do say "congratulations" to you both. Remember that non-traditional families can work just as well as traditional ones, as long as everyone's on the same page. Its time to start communicating, instead of just going with the flow.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2011 12:30:55 GMT -5
...:::"Personally, I'm shocked that financial management in a relationship has not come up until after you got pregnant.":::...
It probably never had to because money doesn't seem to be scarce. Look at their savings and investments, alone. There was probably always enough left over to not have to worry.
...:::"Have you posed this question to him? Maybe he's so focused on not being screwed over financially that he doesn't realize he's screwing over the woman he loves. Every dollar you spend that should be paid by him is a dollar less in savings that you have right now.":::...
Alternatively, every dollar he saves is a dollar more you both own. Even with a pre-nup, so long as you are married, you will both own 3 or 4 houses between you, and have those fat accounts, as well as high incomes.
What is the real issue here? Do you feel denied or deprived of something because you were "supporting" him? Does he get to blow his money on entertainment and food and toys while you have to sew patches on clothes? Or is it just that some other people are making you feel insecure, and that because your guy makes more he is obligated to throw money at you just because he has it and you want it?
A man who makes $140k/year is not going to have a problem getting laid, and even though you are a pretty high earner, its not like he needs your financial subsidies -- so don't think you are getting used. I'd wager he stays with you because he WANTS to.
...:::"Seems like a lot of verbal fencing":::...
Bingo! The most productive conversations I have with DF are those she actually talks, instead of just gets defensive and twists my words back in a baseless attempt to simply frustrate me and get me to walk away.
...:::"What I see is, as a trend in this country, a lot of women being taken advantage of. They are responsible and the males go to their sports bars and man rooms, because they 'work so hard'. Meanwhile the woman is cleaning, cooking, working, raising the kids and doing the shopping and banking.":::...
Oh baloney. I could say I see the opposite. "Modern" women (ie: I have to combat tradition because if I do anything that is thought of as "woman's work", then I'm a lowly slave who might as well be a piece of property") fight so hard to be strong and independent, that they never let men be men, or let themselves be women. The result is a constant power struggle where each side is fighting so hard NOT to become something they have vilified, that they eliminate any possible compromises, and with them, their happiness.
But then that would be verbal fencing.
I really like what Phil said about a communal fortune being built.
...:::"In my opinion, the OP hasn't been too concerned about what's fair or being taken advantage of and maybe that's just because she's more into the relationship than about the money. And maybe he's the same way.":::...
Seconded.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2011 12:34:07 GMT -5
...:::"There is no reason that I95 going into VA should be in a perpetual state of construction.":::...
Its because our state actually has money to continue improving our infrastructure.
You should be happy. Better roads make it even easier for more of MD's irresponsible and downright dangerous drivers to rocket into our state clog all of our amenities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 12:38:43 GMT -5
Given both of your assets, this is one of the time I might suggest buying a new house together. Keep your place (like he's kept his) as an investment. It can then be "yours" in an IO or SS situation, but then there would be a definite place that was "ours" or "the family's". Or you could sell your place but invest the equity elsewhere in your name, or use it as a down payment on the new place but with some legal agreement about how the equity will get split once you sell. And you do need a lawyer esp. if you don't get married to make sure that if the relationship breaks up or one of you is hit by a multi-colored bus, the other partner and the child are protected. Amen. DS got a kick out of telling people we were one family with 3 last names (I kept my name, DS has his father's last name, and DH is fond of telling people, "she didn't change her name when we married and I didn't change mine, either."
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 7, 2011 12:54:16 GMT -5
"Modern" (ie: I have to combat tradition because if I do anything that is thought of as "woman's work", then I'm a lowly slave who might as well be a piece of property") fight so hard to be strong and independent, that they never let men be men, or let themselves be women. The result is a constant power struggle where each side is fighting so hard NOT to become something they have vilified, that they eliminate any possible compromises, and with them, their happiness. To use my MMORPG parlance, /facepalm. ETA: /headdesk works too
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2011 13:08:56 GMT -5
...:::"OP, determine what YOU want and what you truly feel will make you happy. If that's a ring, tell him. If it's a proposal because he realizes you're the one and not because of the baby, tell him that too. He CAN'T read your mind or heart.":::...
This is the best approach. Women are HORRIBLE at telling people what they want (though amazingly adept at telling people what they don't want).
Take some time to really and truly introspect on how YOU feel, and what you want/need from your man. Let him know. However things pan out, at least you will ALWAYS know that you were true to yourself, and you stood up for yourself.
If you don't, one day you will wake up and the resent and regret will be more than you can bear, and you will be very unhappy.
...:::"zib: I take slight offense to the "This is YM not WIR" comment. Over at WIR, we are more undertanding that bad decisions get made and are willing to help people get past that, but we don't generally encourage folks to make bad decisions.":::...
Her man hating diatribes make her feel less responsible for her own involvement in her situation.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 7, 2011 13:11:10 GMT -5
...:::"OP, determine what YOU want and what you truly feel will make you happy. If that's a ring, tell him. If it's a proposal because he realizes you're the one and not because of the baby, tell him that too. He CAN'T read your mind or heart.":::... This is the best approach. Women are HORRIBLE at telling people what they want (though amazingly adept at telling people what they don't want). Eh, I have to say both genders are pretty bad at directly saying what they want in a manner the other gender can understand it.
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