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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 15:47:33 GMT -5
Not to mention that the % of the population which actually took the SAT was significantly smaller in previous decades. Just about everyone is expected to take it today, and so that also impacts the average.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 15:59:34 GMT -5
... [/blockquote][/quote] How to tell the story you wish to tell. I wish I knew how to import graphs that I create into the board. I would do a graph that shows the range of possible scores from 200 to 800 on the left. The data would show a much closer to straight line in scores than one that runs only from the 495 to 524.
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Sept 24, 2012 18:42:31 GMT -5
Another entry from the site Virgil quoted:
"the yids", indeed. What the hell kind of site was that, Virg? One of the Aryan supremacist sites?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 24, 2012 19:08:15 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 24, 2012 19:31:14 GMT -5
It's a blog that covers hardcore analysis of economic issues. One of the top 1,000 Internet sites on Earth, according to Alexa.
They filter their reader comments, but it's on a report-only basis just like NMSNM. Comments aren't deleted unless people report them.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 20:21:42 GMT -5
Question 1.1In a posting on a message board, a poster posts 5 sets of questions without citing a source. He then gives a piece of information which might or might not be true depending on the accuracy of his memory. Following that, he indicates that 76% of students from a state were not able to answer these questions. Again he gives no indication of where he got the information those students could not answer those questions. Is this information valid for drawing a conclusion about anything?
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Sept 24, 2012 21:56:22 GMT -5
NCLB has changed the way teachers teach. What makes it complicated is that most districts are pushing teachers (which is good) to use differentiated methods of teaching in order to provide equal access to all students considering all of their various learning needs, styles and challenges. Yet NCLB, creates a "teach to the test" standardized environment where quality teachers feel pressured to teach in a way that students memorize test questions/answers, rather than teaching in a way that engages, involves and invites student learning. I am fortunate that I teach at an alternative, continuation high school which is "open enrollment." This means we receive new students on a weekly basis and therefore cannot possibly adhere to a standardized pacing plan. So.... we are given the flexibility to teach to the CA standards using methods and pacing plans that we see fit in an alternative setting. Our students are not expected to pass the standard NCLB tests as much as the comprehensive students are, which allows them to actually learn in a flexible and hands on manner. Last school year, a higher percentage of my alternative education students passed their California high school exit exam (CAHSEE) than did the students at the "regular" high school! I and the administration believe this was because we had the flexibility to teach our students the literary and mathematical concepts (taught by me and my co-teacher) in a way that was engaging, differentiated, and above all... non standardized. Just my two cents on NCLB.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 22:07:13 GMT -5
thanks, SV!
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Sept 24, 2012 22:10:23 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 25, 2012 2:50:26 GMT -5
Question 1.1In a posting on a message board, a poster posts 5 sets of questions without citing a source. He then gives a piece of information which might or might not be true depending on the accuracy of his memory. Following that, he indicates that 76% of students from a state were not able to answer these questions. Again he gives no indication of where he got the information those students could not answer those questions. Is this information valid for drawing a conclusion about anything? The images are screenshots of the .PDF document linked-to in Reply #9. The 76% figure comes from Weltz's Reply #77. Get with the program, man.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Sept 25, 2012 7:21:37 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 8:03:48 GMT -5
Funding is tied to NCLB testing. Whether your school maintains autonomy is tied to NCLB testing. They want to tie teacher pay to NCLB testing.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 25, 2012 8:59:38 GMT -5
"If a teacher is bad, it is the principal's responsibility to notice and deal with it."
The teachers unions here in the U.S would have a cow if this were to become standard practice.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 25, 2012 9:14:30 GMT -5
"Some people believe the downward trend started with the creation of the Federal dept of education. Which makes sense to me since the Feds tend to destroy more than they fix..."
Precisely. NCLB is bad, just like Obamacare is going to be bad. They both started out with good intentions, but ended up having negative unintended consequences.
And Virgil is right, you can't compare a country of 5 million, wealthy, and homogeneous country with a large and diverse country like U.S. New York City alone is bigger than Finland.
If you really want to compare education in the U.S with education in Finlind, and should take 3 million white kids whose family income is three times the national average and compare them to finland children. I imagine if you did that, the U.S would stack up a lot more favorably.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 9:19:21 GMT -5
It currently IS the principal's responsibility here as well. Contrary to popular opinion, you can remove a tenured teacher. It takes work and diligency on the part of the principal, and yes, first you do have to try to rehabilitate/train in most cases, but it is possible, and it is the principal's responsibility.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 25, 2012 10:07:18 GMT -5
"Some people believe the downward trend started with the creation of the Federal dept of education. Which makes sense to me since the Feds tend to destroy more than they fix..." Precisely. NCLB is bad, just like Obamacare is going to be bad. They both started out with good intentions, but ended up having negative unintended consequences. i really don't understand the association between the two at all. in one case you have a large publicly funded and publicly run system that is for the benefit of non-consenting non-adults. in the other, you have a non-publicly funded private system that is run for the benefit of consenting adults. intentions aside, i can't perceive how they have ANYTHING in common.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Sept 25, 2012 11:02:32 GMT -5
And Virgil is right, you can't compare a country of 5 million, wealthy, and homogeneous country with a large and diverse country like U.S. New York City alone is bigger than Finland. If you really want to compare education in the U.S with education in Finlind, and should take 3 million white kids whose family income is three times the national average and compare them to finland children. I imagine if you did that, the U.S would stack up a lot more favorably. ------------------- When not obfuscating the problem, apologists explain away the dismal results with misleading arguments. Some point to the country’s large immigrant and disadvantaged populations, which, to be sure, do pose difficult educational challenges. Proficiency rates among African-Americans and Hispanics are very low (11 and 15 percent, respectively). But if one compares only the white students in the U.S. with all students in other countries, the U.S. still falls short: only 42 percent are proficient, which would place them at 17th in the world compared with all of the students in other nations. The only positive sign is the majority of Asian students in the United States (52 percent) who score at or above the proficiency level. When our results were first released, one school-board member in Loudoun County, a wealthy suburb of Washington, D.C., explained away the results: “In many countries, poor-performing children are filtered out of high school, whereas in the U.S., we test all our students, both great and not so great. So the comparison is not on a level playing field.” That might have been true some decades ago when only a few countries followed the United States’ emphasis on universal education and thus left many students out of school and unavailable for testing. But today the U.S. actually graduates fewer students from high school than the average developed country, completely eliminating any claim that the U.S. is testing a broader range of the youth population. www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/08/28/why-can-t-u-s-students-compete-with-the-rest-of-the-world.html
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 25, 2012 11:11:28 GMT -5
You basically proved his point, Weltz. I would fit the range to the data and assume the audience knows how to read a graph. ...although maybe I shouldn't be making that assumption.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 25, 2012 11:12:40 GMT -5
there used to be a time when Americans would embrace the impossible. now they run away from it.
sad.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 25, 2012 11:15:47 GMT -5
there used to be a time when Americans would embrace the impossible. now they run away from it. sad. Vietnam opened some eyes.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 25, 2012 11:17:04 GMT -5
there used to be a time when Americans would embrace the impossible. now they run away from it. sad. Vietnam opened some eyes. not the illustration i would have used, but i see the point.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Sept 25, 2012 11:17:40 GMT -5
You basically proved his point, Weltz. -------------- Again.... "But if one compares only the white students in the U.S. with all students in other countries, the U.S. still falls short: only 42 percent are proficient, which would place them at 17th in the world compared with all of the students in other nations."
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 25, 2012 11:35:23 GMT -5
You basically proved his point, Weltz. -------------- Again.... "But if one compares only the white students in the U.S. with all students in other countries, the U.S. still falls short: only 42 percent are proficient, which would place them at 17th in the world compared with all of the students in other nations." I read it, Weltz. Phoenix's argument is that if we surveyed only rich white kids, the US would do far better in the assessment. Your data shows that looking at American whites across all incomes improves the US's ranking from 32nd to 17th. If you find an article that reports scores by race and economic status showing another jump from 17th to 9th between "white kids" and "rich white kids", I suggest you sit on it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Sept 25, 2012 11:47:29 GMT -5
Phoenix's argument is that if we surveyed only rich white kids, the US would do far better in the assessment. Your data shows that looking at American whites across all incomes improves the US's ranking from 32nd to 17th. ---------------- 17th still isn't good enough. It's dismal.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 25, 2012 11:59:03 GMT -5
It could still be a lot better, which is the point of the discussion in this thread.
Is 42% proficiency "dismal"? Given the exam material, I suppose that's fair. :-\
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 25, 2012 12:00:45 GMT -5
Phoenix's argument is that if we surveyed only rich white kids, the US would do far better in the assessment. Your data shows that looking at American whites across all incomes improves the US's ranking from 32nd to 17th. ---------------- 17th still isn't good enough. It's dismal. it is approximately where our healthcare system is, too. scandalous, in the most wealthy nation on Earth.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 25, 2012 12:02:38 GMT -5
Some would say that lack of burdensome taxes needed to support US healthcare is why you're the wealthiest nation on Earth.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 25, 2012 13:02:32 GMT -5
Some would say that lack of burdensome taxes needed to support US healthcare is why you're the wealthiest nation on Earth. not really. but this thread is not about healthcare, so i will save it for another time.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 25, 2012 18:16:42 GMT -5
You basically proved his point, Weltz. -------------- Again.... "But if one compares only the white students in the U.S. with all students in other countries, the U.S. still falls short: only 42 percent are proficient, which would place them at 17th in the world compared with all of the students in other nations." You're missing the other part of the equation, Finlind is also a wealthy country. So not only do you have to take just Whites, you also have to take whites who average three times the national average in income. Do that and get back to me.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 25, 2012 18:20:01 GMT -5
"I need to go replay Portal... every other game has paled compared to its genius. All school children should have to play it too." I got the portal reference. I enjoyed portal and portal 2. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's the best game ever, but it is certainly good. Right now I'm playing borderlands 2
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