Is NCLB Taking Us Down The Wrong Path?

[jkapp]

Sept 23, 2012 12:17:47 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think so. education should foster creativity, and personal strengths, not try to create little robots which do menial tasks in response to authority or need (as defined on the Maslow scale). if one were to devise the perfect system for destroying creativity, i think that it would resemble NCLB.

here is what i think we SHOULD be doing:

www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

keep in mind that the Finnish system is wildly successful when you read this, and ask yourself: could it possibly be more different than NCLB:

The answers Finland provides seem to run counter to just about everything America's school reformers are trying to do.For starters, Finland has no standardized tests. The only exception is what's called the National Matriculation Exam, which everyone takes at the end of a voluntary upper-secondary school, roughly the equivalent of American high school.

Instead, the public school system's teachers are trained to assess children in classrooms using independent tests they create themselves. All children receive a report card at the end of each semester, but these reports are based on individualized grading by each teacher. Periodically, the Ministry of Education tracks national progress by testing a few sample groups across a range of different schools.

As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."

For Sahlberg what matters is that in Finland all teachers and administrators are given prestige, decent pay, and a lot of responsibility. A master's degree is required to enter the profession, and teacher training programs are among the most selective professional schools in the country. If a teacher is bad, it is the principal's responsibility to notice and deal with it.

And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.

It sounds like a completely arbitrary system that could be used to punish any children that didn't suck up to the teacher, or follow exactly what the teacher believes.

For instance, let's say we had this type of system in our country, and one of the far-left extremist teachers in our country was teaching it. So anyone who had a differing opinion about things than the teacher could very well be given poor grades...and what is in place to stop or prevent this from happening? Since the "grades" are completely up to the teacher, and follows the teacher's own methodology, what would the grade even mean?

[Loopdilou]

Sept 24, 2012 1:42:28 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Try Portal 2, Loopy.

Already beat it. They need another one!

[billisonboard]

Sept 24, 2012 8:37:53 GMT -5 jkapp said:

...

For instance, let's say we had this type of system in our country, ...

We do have this system in our country when it comes to grades.

[Deleted]

What does a standardized test score mean?

They have a national curriculum framework and national assessment guidelines. They are just not bound by standardized tests in how they teach. They also teach the skills for self assessment and by 10th grade students are designing their own programs which are heavy in independent study. MASTERY is the goal. Not passing a test, but learning and mastering concepts and developing skills... and they pay a lot of attention to student interests and self pacing.

Oh, and they might be well to do as a country, but they spend a lot less per student on education than we do.

www.oecd.org/pisa/pisaproducts/46581035.pdf

[whoisjohngalt]

We do have this system in our country when it comes to grades.

But in beautiful USA students evidently can sue if they don't like the grade or the way teacher handled something. Can Finns do the same??

Our creativity is what sets us apart from the rest of the world.....

Lena

[billisonboard]

Sept 24, 2012 9:04:28 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

We do have this system in our country when it comes to grades.

But in beautiful USA students evidently can sue if they don't like the grade or the way teacher handled something. Can Finns do the same??

Our creativity is what sets us apart from the rest of the world.....

Lena

I have sat in parent/teacher/student conferences in which students have shown great creativity in explaining why it is certainly not their fault that they did not receive a passing grade.

[luckyme]

I think anyone who has kids in school knows NCLB is a disaster. It started out w/ good intentions, not having kids graduate who could barely read, but it degenerated quickly.

Now, more than half the year is spent teaching to the tests. In elementary school, there weren't even books for all the kids in some subjects, but it didn't matter, because they weren't even used.

My kids' elementary school was enlarged, and during open house, they were showing the new "science" lab. All the parents chuckled because we knew science wasn't taught. I asked my kids what it was used for, and they said it was a study hall.

Our district is currently under investigation for falsifying test results. And they weren't great to begin with, so how sad is that? Although, with large numbers of low income/poor and large numbers of ESL students, communication is a huge problem, forget actually teaching.

That being said, I don't see how the "Finland" model could ever work here, for all the reasons stated. It's like comparing apples to motorcycles.

The law should be revoked and replaced. Right now, we have waivers available, but it hardly fixes the problem:

No Child Left Behind Waivers Granted To 33 U.S. States, Some With Strings Attached
www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/no-child-left-behind-waiver_n_1684504.html


Personally, knowing how poorly gov't functions in so many things, I think the public school system is going to keep declining with no true intelligent reformation. Parents who really care about their kids education will continue to pick areas w/ good school districts, charter schools, private schools, homeschool, or cyber school.

I am glad my youngest is in middle school, and our HS has an excellent honors program. From my understanding the elementary schools are an utter disaster now.

[billisonboard]

Sept 24, 2012 9:15:28 GMT -5 luckyme said:

...

Personally, knowing how poorly gov't functions in so many things, I think the public school system is going to keep declining ...

So how did public schools reach the peak from which they are declining from now?

[jkapp]

Sept 24, 2012 9:19:23 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 24, 2012 9:15:28 GMT -5 luckyme said:

...

Personally, knowing how poorly gov't functions in so many things, I think the public school system is going to keep declining ...

So how did public schools reach the peak from which they are declining from now?

Some people believe the downward trend started with the creation of the Federal dept of education. Which makes sense to me since the Feds tend to destroy more than they fix...

So, whatever made the Feds want to create this department probably needs to be looked at...perhaps it isn't needed anymore (if it ever was).

[b2r]

Sept 23, 2012 22:43:24 GMT -5 oped said:

NEVER eat urinal cake....

What school did you attend?

[billisonboard]

Sept 24, 2012 9:33:44 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Sept 24, 2012 9:19:23 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

So how did public schools reach the peak from which they are declining from now?

Some people believe the downward trend started with the creation of the Federal dept of education. Which makes sense to me since the Feds tend to destroy more than they fix...

So, whatever made the Feds want to create this department probably needs to be looked at...perhaps it isn't needed anymore (if it ever was).

More accurate national data on what was happening in schools became available as the federal government got more involved. Also, expectations have increased greatly on what school children must accomplish to be considered successful. Schools are not meeting current expectations. That does not mean that they are declining.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 9:04:28 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

We do have this system in our country when it comes to grades.

But in beautiful USA students evidently can sue if they don't like the grade or the way teacher handled something. Can Finns do the same??

Our creativity is what sets us apart from the rest of the world.....

Lena

and our creativity is clearly our path forward. at least to me. to have a public school system that tramples creativity is economic suicide, imo.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 9:15:28 GMT -5 luckyme said:

I think anyone who has kids in school knows NCLB is a disaster. It started out w/ good intentions, not having kids graduate who could barely read, but it degenerated quickly.

Now, more than half the year is spent teaching to the tests. In elementary school, there weren't even books for all the kids in some subjects, but it didn't matter, because they weren't even used.

My kids' elementary school was enlarged, and during open house, they were showing the new "science" lab. All the parents chuckled because we knew science wasn't taught. I asked my kids what it was used for, and they said it was a study hall.

Our district is currently under investigation for falsifying test results. And they weren't great to begin with, so how sad is that? Although, with large numbers of low income/poor and large numbers of ESL students, communication is a huge problem, forget actually teaching.

That being said, I don't see how the "Finland" model could ever work here, for all the reasons stated. It's like comparing apples to motorcycles.

why? because we are stuck on failed ideas?

The law should be revoked and replaced. Right now, we have waivers available, but it hardly fixes the problem:

No Child Left Behind Waivers Granted To 33 U.S. States, Some With Strings Attached
www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/no-child-left-behind-waiver_n_1684504.html


Personally, knowing how poorly gov't functions in so many things, I think the public school system is going to keep declining with no true intelligent reformation. Parents who really care about their kids education will continue to pick areas w/ good school districts, charter schools, private schools, homeschool, or cyber school.

I am glad my youngest is in middle school, and our HS has an excellent honors program. From my understanding the elementary schools are an utter disaster now.

see, this position is just bizarre to me. until WW2, our school system was considered a model for the world. and now that it is failing, we seem to think it will always fail.

what happened to the attitude that we can succeed? where did the American Spirit go?

[whoisjohngalt]

where did the American Spirit go?

It went to the "I am an American and have rights to everything" spirit.....

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Sept 24, 2012 9:58:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 24, 2012 9:15:28 GMT -5 luckyme said:

I think anyone who has kids in school knows NCLB is a disaster. It started out w/ good intentions, not having kids graduate who could barely read, but it degenerated quickly.

Now, more than half the year is spent teaching to the tests. In elementary school, there weren't even books for all the kids in some subjects, but it didn't matter, because they weren't even used.

My kids' elementary school was enlarged, and during open house, they were showing the new "science" lab. All the parents chuckled because we knew science wasn't taught. I asked my kids what it was used for, and they said it was a study hall.

Our district is currently under investigation for falsifying test results. And they weren't great to begin with, so how sad is that? Although, with large numbers of low income/poor and large numbers of ESL students, communication is a huge problem, forget actually teaching.

That being said, I don't see how the "Finland" model could ever work here, for all the reasons stated. It's like comparing apples to motorcycles.

why? because we are stuck on failed ideas?

The law should be revoked and replaced. Right now, we have waivers available, but it hardly fixes the problem:

No Child Left Behind Waivers Granted To 33 U.S. States, Some With Strings Attached
www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/no-child-left-behind-waiver_n_1684504.html


Personally, knowing how poorly gov't functions in so many things, I think the public school system is going to keep declining with no true intelligent reformation. Parents who really care about their kids education will continue to pick areas w/ good school districts, charter schools, private schools, homeschool, or cyber school.

I am glad my youngest is in middle school, and our HS has an excellent honors program. From my understanding the elementary schools are an utter disaster now.

see, this position is just bizarre to me. until WW2, our school system was considered a model for the world. and now that it is failing, we seem to think it will always fail.

what happened to the attitude that we can succeed? where did the American Spirit go?

...well, I could try to make a wisecrack about some 47% of Americans not needing an education to earn an income...

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 8:37:53 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Sept 23, 2012 12:17:47 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think so. education should foster creativity, and personal strengths, not try to create little robots which do menial tasks in response to authority or need (as defined on the Maslow scale). if one were to devise the perfect system for destroying creativity, i think that it would resemble NCLB.

here is what i think we SHOULD be doing:

www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

keep in mind that the Finnish system is wildly successful when you read this, and ask yourself: could it possibly be more different than NCLB:

The answers Finland provides seem to run counter to just about everything America's school reformers are trying to do.For starters, Finland has no standardized tests. The only exception is what's called the National Matriculation Exam, which everyone takes at the end of a voluntary upper-secondary school, roughly the equivalent of American high school.

Instead, the public school system's teachers are trained to assess children in classrooms using independent tests they create themselves. All children receive a report card at the end of each semester, but these reports are based on individualized grading by each teacher. Periodically, the Ministry of Education tracks national progress by testing a few sample groups across a range of different schools.

As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."

For Sahlberg what matters is that in Finland all teachers and administrators are given prestige, decent pay, and a lot of responsibility. A master's degree is required to enter the profession, and teacher training programs are among the most selective professional schools in the country. If a teacher is bad, it is the principal's responsibility to notice and deal with it.

And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.

It sounds like a completely arbitrary system that could be used to punish any children that didn't suck up to the teacher, or follow exactly what the teacher believes.

For instance, let's say we had this type of system in our country, and one of the far-left extremist teachers in our country was teaching it. So anyone who had a differing opinion about things than the teacher could very well be given poor grades...and what is in place to stop or prevent this from happening? Since the "grades" are completely up to the teacher, and follows the teacher's own methodology, what would the grade even mean?

this conclusion suggests that a political agenda is more important than educating kids. i have never met an educator that believes that.

i submit that our top down, authoritarian, control freak way of running schools is part of the problem. it drives teachers insane.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 10:01:59 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Sept 24, 2012 9:58:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

see, this position is just bizarre to me. until WW2, our school system was considered a model for the world. and now that it is failing, we seem to think it will always fail.

what happened to the attitude that we can succeed? where did the American Spirit go?

...well, I could try to make a wisecrack about some 47% of Americans not needing an education to earn an income...

i would posit that this is precisely why the system has been dumbed down. but even this will fail eventually, when the flesh robots are replaced by real ones.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 10:01:23 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

where did the American Spirit go?

It went to the "I am an American and have rights to everything" spirit.....

i think it is just lack of vision and leadership, personally.

[luckyme]

" That does not mean that they are declining. "

I have a child graduating HS, and one recently in middle school. I see the difference in their educational experience. As I stated in a previous post, my youngest never had science or even social studies in elementary. They did reading and math from Sept to March, that's it, they were the only subjects they studied. They're out of school in early June!

You don't consider that a declining education?

How is your experience w/ your children's education? Because the difference between my oldest's and youngest's is unfathomable.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Sept 24, 2012 10:03:27 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 24, 2012 10:01:59 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...well, I could try to make a wisecrack about some 47% of Americans not needing an education to earn an income...

i would posit that this is precisely why the system has been dumbed down. but even this will fail eventually, when the flesh robots are replaced by real ones.

...so will you take the red pill, or the blue one? ;D

[happyhoix]

I think what the Finns have, and what we used to have, was a national desire to educate our kids to the same standard.

What I've seen, at least around where I live (SE TN/NW GA) people seem to be abandoning public schools for private schools, either so they can control the message (with Christian schools) or so they can make sure their own kid gets a good education. If the public school is in a good suburban neighborhood, the school PTA will fund raise to provide money for good quality facilites. No one seems to care about the kids stuck in poorer urban school systems.

We seem to be moving away from "we need all our kids to do the best of their abilities if we want to succeed as a nation" and into "I want my kid to excell and I'm willing to pay for him to go to an elite school, but I'll be damned if my taxes have to increase to support all the masses that attend the public schools."

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 10:06:04 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Sept 24, 2012 10:03:27 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i would posit that this is precisely why the system has been dumbed down. but even this will fail eventually, when the flesh robots are replaced by real ones.

...so will you take the red pill, or the blue one? ;D

this isn't a reality/fiction problem. most people don't even see what is coming.

[jkapp]

Sept 24, 2012 9:58:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 24, 2012 9:15:28 GMT -5 luckyme said:

I think anyone who has kids in school knows NCLB is a disaster. It started out w/ good intentions, not having kids graduate who could barely read, but it degenerated quickly.

Now, more than half the year is spent teaching to the tests. In elementary school, there weren't even books for all the kids in some subjects, but it didn't matter, because they weren't even used.

My kids' elementary school was enlarged, and during open house, they were showing the new "science" lab. All the parents chuckled because we knew science wasn't taught. I asked my kids what it was used for, and they said it was a study hall.

Our district is currently under investigation for falsifying test results. And they weren't great to begin with, so how sad is that? Although, with large numbers of low income/poor and large numbers of ESL students, communication is a huge problem, forget actually teaching.

That being said, I don't see how the "Finland" model could ever work here, for all the reasons stated. It's like comparing apples to motorcycles.

why? because we are stuck on failed ideas?

The law should be revoked and replaced. Right now, we have waivers available, but it hardly fixes the problem:

No Child Left Behind Waivers Granted To 33 U.S. States, Some With Strings Attached
www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/no-child-left-behind-waiver_n_1684504.html


Personally, knowing how poorly gov't functions in so many things, I think the public school system is going to keep declining with no true intelligent reformation. Parents who really care about their kids education will continue to pick areas w/ good school districts, charter schools, private schools, homeschool, or cyber school.

I am glad my youngest is in middle school, and our HS has an excellent honors program. From my understanding the elementary schools are an utter disaster now.

see, this position is just bizarre to me. until WW2, our school system was considered a model for the world. and now that it is failing, we seem to think it will always fail.

what happened to the attitude that we can succeed? where did the American Spirit go?

IMO it went away for many people when personal responsibility became taboo in our society. Now, everything is expected to be given with little to no effort on the part of the receiver.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 10:07:01 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think what the Finns have, and what we used to have, was a national desire to educate our kids to the same standard.

if you eliminate "to the same standard", we agree. the Fins eschew standards. what they try to obtain is the best RESULTS. if you are focused on excellence, instead of standards, you will generally have higher achievement.

What I've seen, at least around where I live (SE TN/NW GA) people seem to be abandoning public schools for private schools, either so they can control the message (with Christian schools) or so they can make sure their own kid gets a good education. If the public school is in a good suburban neighborhood, the school PTA will fund raise to provide money for good quality facilites. No one seems to care about the kids stuck in poorer urban school systems.

We seem to be moving away from "we need all our kids to do the best of their abilities if we want to succeed as a nation" and into "I want my kid to excell and I'm willing to pay for him to go to an elite school, but I'll be damned if my taxes have to increase to support all the masses that attend the public schools."

this is precisely the way we are heading- into a future where the vast majority of kids will get an inferior education, and the jobs to go with it. the REASON this is happening has nothing to do with popular will, imo. Americans want better. but their leaders are FAR more divided about what purpose education should serve.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 10:11:00 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Sept 24, 2012 9:58:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

see, this position is just bizarre to me. until WW2, our school system was considered a model for the world. and now that it is failing, we seem to think it will always fail.

what happened to the attitude that we can succeed? where did the American Spirit go?

IMO it went away for many people when personal responsibility became taboo in our society. Now, everything is expected to be given with little to no effort on the part of the receiver.

you are the second person to say that, but i disagree. i think people are just as willing to strive as ever. however, we have no national GOALS for things like education. and what that does is breed complacency.

if i were to go to work today and tell people that they should just do whatever they liked, and i really didn't care if we shipped any product any more, we would be out of business in 6 months. it is actually sorta amazing that we, as a nation, do any better than that. i would suggest that it is ONLY because of educators that really care that we are not completely off the map by now. things like NCLB are a barrier to good outcomes in education. remove them, and we will do a lot better.

[jkapp]

Sept 24, 2012 10:07:01 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think what the Finns have, and what we used to have, was a national desire to educate our kids to the same standard.

What I've seen, at least around where I live (SE TN/NW GA) people seem to be abandoning public schools for private schools, either so they can control the message (with Christian schools) or so they can make sure their own kid gets a good education. If the public school is in a good suburban neighborhood, the school PTA will fund raise to provide money for good quality facilites. No one seems to care about the kids stuck in poorer urban school systems.

We seem to be moving away from "we need all our kids to do the best of their abilities if we want to succeed as a nation" and into "I want my kid to excell and I'm willing to pay for him to go to an elite school, but I'll be damned if my taxes have to increase to support all the masses that attend the public schools."

Private insitutions also have much more control over the students...if a student becomes a nuisance, thereby hurting the educational experience for the rest of the student body, then that student can be expelled. Public schools are much less likely to expel any problem kids since their funding is dependent on head count, less so on actual results. So the public schools could care less whether or not a student was a nuisance as long as they get the funding attached to that student.

Plus, what you'll see is public schools requesting more money because the teachers and unions have bled the districts dry with salary, benefit, and pension expenses...so there's nothing left over for the facilities and equipment upgrades. So why would parents wish to spend more taxes for public schools, when the teachers will most likely suck those extra funds up the next year with salary and benefit increases?

[luckyme]

" this is precisely the way we are heading- into a future where the vast majority of kids will get an inferior education, and the jobs to go with it. the REASON this is happening has nothing to do with popular will, imo. Americans want better. but their leaders are FAR more divided about what purpose education should serve. "

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 10:20:03 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Sept 24, 2012 10:07:01 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think what the Finns have, and what we used to have, was a national desire to educate our kids to the same standard.

What I've seen, at least around where I live (SE TN/NW GA) people seem to be abandoning public schools for private schools, either so they can control the message (with Christian schools) or so they can make sure their own kid gets a good education. If the public school is in a good suburban neighborhood, the school PTA will fund raise to provide money for good quality facilites. No one seems to care about the kids stuck in poorer urban school systems.

We seem to be moving away from "we need all our kids to do the best of their abilities if we want to succeed as a nation" and into "I want my kid to excell and I'm willing to pay for him to go to an elite school, but I'll be damned if my taxes have to increase to support all the masses that attend the public schools."

Private insitutions also have much more control over the students...if a student becomes a nuisance, thereby hurting the educational experience for the rest of the student body, then that student can be expelled. Public schools are much less likely to expel any problem kids since their funding is dependent on head count, less so on actual results. So the public schools could care less whether or not a student was a nuisance as long as they get the funding attached to that student.

utterly false. they care a lot about behavior, but you are absolutely correct in thinking there is less they can do about it. for one thing, they don't have the resources to deal with troubled kids. for another, since they are a public institution, parents will RIGHTLY expect them to serve their kids, even if they are disruptive. in short, they are less able to deal with the issue in every way.

Plus, what you'll see is public schools requesting more money because the teachers and unions have bled the districts dry with salary, benefit, and pension expenses...so there's nothing left over for the facilities and equipment upgrades. So why would parents wish to spend more taxes for public schools, when the teachers will most likely suck those extra funds up the next year with salary and benefit increases?

because most families can't afford a decent private education. it is really that simple. we can BARELY afford it, and our household is well into six figures. there is no way the education that my son receives is remotely within reach of the average American family.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 10:21:44 GMT -5 luckyme said:

" this is precisely the way we are heading- into a future where the vast majority of kids will get an inferior education, and the jobs to go with it. the REASON this is happening has nothing to do with popular will, imo. Americans want better. but their leaders are FAR more divided about what purpose education should serve. "

it would be NICE if we could have the same dialog about education that we recently had about healthcare. i think it would reveal a great deal about our priorities, and how conflicted they are depending on your socioeconomic group.

[billisonboard]

Sept 24, 2012 10:05:24 GMT -5 luckyme said:

" That does not mean that they are declining. "

I have a child graduating HS, and one recently in middle school. I see the difference in their educational experience. As I stated in a previous post, my youngest never had science or even social studies in elementary. They did reading and math from Sept to March, that's it, they were the only subjects they studied. They're out of school in early June!

You don't consider that a declining education?

How is your experience w/ your children's education? Because the difference between my oldest's and youngest's is unfathomable.

My children's personal experience is dated enough to not be relevant.

I see a shift in priorities within the schooling system. That does not in and of itself indicate a "decline". When priorities shifted again, they will go back to teaching different material. Is a greater percentage of the student population learning more of what is being taught now than students in the past? Is the student population now a higher percentage of the age cohort than it has been in the past? Are the expectations of what they learning greater than in the past? Are they learning more than in the past? These would be questions which would look at "decline".