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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 10:34:39 GMT -5
I am still waiting for a real dialogue on health care.
Why Johney Can't Read... was written in the 1950s!! There is no golden age of public education.
Private is not the way to go. Go private and suddenly there are lots of free schools popping up... with private motives. We do not want 'special interest' in charge of our mass education.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 10:38:36 GMT -5
I am still waiting for a real dialogue on health care. you mean, something other than the angry mobs at the local meetings?Why Johney Can't Read... was written in the 1950s!! There is no golden age of public education. Private is not the way to go. Go private and suddenly there are lots of free schools popping up... with private motives. We do not want 'special interest' in charge of our mass education. but that is PRECISELY where we are, oped. if we want to change things, i would suggest that we need to drive special interests OUT of education.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 10:39:40 GMT -5
... Why Johney Can't Read... was written in the 1950s!! There is no golden age of public education. ... Drop-out rates are also very interesting.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 10:42:55 GMT -5
I am still waiting for a real dialogue on health care. you mean, something other than the angry mobs at the local meetings?Why Johney Can't Read... was written in the 1950s!! There is no golden age of public education. Private is not the way to go. Go private and suddenly there are lots of free schools popping up... with private motives. We do not want 'special interest' in charge of our mass education. but that is PRECISELY where we are, oped. if we want to change things, i would suggest that we need to drive special interests OUT of education. Does that include corporate interests? Much of the current push in education is an attempt to create more high skilled (surplus) labor thus decreasing power of such employees.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 10:45:09 GMT -5
but that is PRECISELY where we are, oped. if we want to change things, i would suggest that we need to drive special interests OUT of education. Does that include corporate interests? corporate and religious. i would put those two highest on the interloper scale.Much of the current push in education is an attempt to create more high skilled (surplus) labor thus decreasing power of such employees. precisely. you and i are thinking exactly the same way, bills.
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 24, 2012 10:58:00 GMT -5
I could find a few of them in Chicago. I'll be honest, I don't know how teachers were evaluated where I am from, but what I do know is that we had a few things that I don't see US schools have: 1 - teachers were respected. They didn't have to be liked, but they were respected. They had authority to discipline and teach. 2 - Parents were A LOT more involved. And communication between parents and teachers was a pretty constant thing despite the fact that internet/emails/texting was not invented yet. 3 - The curriculum was not dumbed-down to it's lowest denominator. There weren't much concern about building self-esteem. 4 - School was for academics. Anything else was extra-curricular activities - sports, art, music. We did have music lessons, art lessons, gym, etc, but that was one/two periods a week, not hours of after-school practice that was tied to school. I don't know if it helped us a country, but I do know that when I came here, levels of my knowledge were much higher than of my US counterparts. However, I think college does do a lot of catching up to even it out, but only on certain subjects. Lena
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 11:07:00 GMT -5
I could find a few of them in Chicago. i know quite a few in Chicago, actually. to a person, they put education over politics. whether they put money over education is another matter. I'll be honest, I don't know how teachers were evaluated where I am from, but what I do know is that we had a few things that I don't see US schools have: 1 - teachers were respected. They didn't have to be liked, but they were respected. They had authority to discipline and teach. i think the latter part is the most galling part to teachers- how little control they have over their teaching.2 - Parents were A LOT more involved. And communication between parents and teachers was a pretty constant thing despite the fact that internet/emails/texting was not invented yet. 3 - The curriculum was not dumbed-down to it's lowest denominator. There weren't much concern about building self-esteem. i think that this self esteem thing has been blown out of proportion by the detractors of public eduction. self esteem IS important. it is VERY important. the method for building it is worthy of debate. but dismissing it as a bogus concept is not the way forward, imo.4 - School was for academics. Anything else was extra-curricular activities - sports, art, music. We did have music lessons, art lessons, gym, etc, but that was one/two periods a week, not hours of after-school practice that was tied to school. i personally think this is a huge deal. i remember a few years ago when my son was in PUBLIC primary school, there was a choice that came up between building a new sports facility and building a library. the sports facility won. it caused me to question what my son was in school for- to learn how to hit a curveball, or to learn how to navigate one intellectually.I don't know if it helped us a country, but I do know that when I came here, levels of my knowledge were much higher than of my US counterparts. However, I think college does do a lot of catching up to even it out, but only on certain subjects. Lena our colleges are still well regarded. if we look at how they work, we have a pretty good model for how public schools should function.
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 24, 2012 11:11:11 GMT -5
Oh, one more thing we had - the knowledge base started early and was build on. So, for example, we would start chemistry in 5th grade and have it every year until graduation with concepts getting harder and harder. Once we started a subject, we never lost it, just kept building on it.
Lena
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Post by jkapp on Sept 24, 2012 11:22:53 GMT -5
I could find a few of them in Chicago. i know quite a few in Chicago, actually. to a person, they put education over politics. whether they put money over education is another matter. I'll be honest, I don't know how teachers were evaluated where I am from, but what I do know is that we had a few things that I don't see US schools have: 1 - teachers were respected. They didn't have to be liked, but they were respected. They had authority to discipline and teach. i think the latter part is the most galling part to teachers- how little control they have over their teaching.2 - Parents were A LOT more involved. And communication between parents and teachers was a pretty constant thing despite the fact that internet/emails/texting was not invented yet. 3 - The curriculum was not dumbed-down to it's lowest denominator. There weren't much concern about building self-esteem. i think that this self esteem thing has been blown out of proportion by the detractors of public eduction. self esteem IS important. it is VERY important. the method for building it is worthy of debate. but dismissing it as a bogus concept is not the way forward, imo.4 - School was for academics. Anything else was extra-curricular activities - sports, art, music. We did have music lessons, art lessons, gym, etc, but that was one/two periods a week, not hours of after-school practice that was tied to school. i personally think this is a huge deal. i remember a few years ago when my son was in PUBLIC primary school, there was a choice that came up between building a new sports facility and building a library. the sports facility won. it caused me to question what my son was in school for- to learn how to hit a curveball, or to learn how to navigate one intellectually.I don't know if it helped us a country, but I do know that when I came here, levels of my knowledge were much higher than of my US counterparts. However, I think college does do a lot of catching up to even it out, but only on certain subjects. Lena our colleges are still well regarded. if we look at how they work, we have a pretty good model for how public schools should function. And look at the cost of it to each student... One thing I will say is that public education never prepared us for college. In grade school, the teacher was expected to get each student to understand the material before continuing to other subjects. In college, the students were expected to understand the material, and the teacher continued their lessons no matter if a student understood it or not. This lead to a real awakening on my part as to how dumbed down my grade school education was. College seemed like it went at a much more rapid pace where, especially in the beginning, I had trouble keeping up with it...whereas I was normally bored in HS waiting for other students to catch up to those of us who already understood the material.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 24, 2012 11:26:58 GMT -5
Your colleges, not so much. Trying to apply education at the college level to education at the K-12 level is a fool's errand. Adults learn differently. College material is more concentrated, more abstract, and much less diverse within a single program of study. College students are more autonomous, more motivated, and possess a baseline degree of interest in and respect for their education. They also have the option of dropping out (and many do). There are certain factors that can be applied across the gap: interfacing learners with technology, constructivist approaches to learning, inquiry-based learning, etc. Insofar as I know, all of these are also recommended for K-12 education in the US, and teachers simply don't use them for various reasons (lack of funds, large class sizes, poor training, lack of enthusiasm, crushing bureaucracies, social problems with the students, etc.).
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Post by pepper112765 on Sept 24, 2012 11:38:57 GMT -5
But in beautiful USA students evidently can sue if they don't like the grade or the way teacher handled something. Can Finns do the same?? Our creativity is what sets us apart from the rest of the world..... Lena And so can parents sue for the school systems to accomodate students that have no hope of learning anything because they are severely developmentally disabled.
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Post by pepper112765 on Sept 24, 2012 11:48:25 GMT -5
I think what the Finns have, and what we used to have, was a national desire to educate our kids to the same standard. What I've seen, at least around where I live (SE TN/NW GA) people seem to be abandoning public schools for private schools, either so they can control the message (with Christian schools) or so they can make sure their own kid gets a good education. If the public school is in a good suburban neighborhood, the school PTA will fund raise to provide money for good quality facilites. No one seems to care about the kids stuck in poorer urban school systems. We seem to be moving away from "we need all our kids to do the best of their abilities if we want to succeed as a nation" and into "I want my kid to excell and I'm willing to pay for him to go to an elite school, but I'll be damned if my taxes have to increase to support all the masses that attend the public schools." Private insitutions also have much more control over the students...if a student becomes a nuisance, thereby hurting the educational experience for the rest of the student body, then that student can be expelled. Public schools are much less likely to expel any problem kids since their funding is dependent on head count, less so on actual results. So the public schools could care less whether or not a student was a nuisance as long as they get the funding attached to that student. Plus, what you'll see is public schools requesting more money because the teachers and unions have bled the districts dry with salary, benefit, and pension expenses...so there's nothing left over for the facilities and equipment upgrades. So why would parents wish to spend more taxes for public schools, when the teachers will most likely suck those extra funds up the next year with salary and benefit increases? I believe that the jobs in administration as well as the costs for special needs children (and I am not talking about the ones that have a capacity to communicate and learn) as well as transportation costs associated. The county in which my daughter attends school, the school system personnel went without raises for a number of years. I've experienced teachers who taught during the day, going to grad school (TO GET INTO ADMINISTRATION), parenting children and then they are teaching my child. Tired, stressed and cranky are what they are. There are plenty who use teaching as a stop gap to getting to the administrative positions within a school system.
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 24, 2012 12:53:01 GMT -5
"Oh, one more thing we had - the knowledge base started early and was build on. So, for example, we would start chemistry in 5th grade and have it every year until graduation with concepts getting harder and harder. Once we started a subject, we never lost it, just kept building on it."
One thing I saw in the European systems was that they divided kids at about 6th grade into the voc-ed kids and the pre-college kids.
You didn't get to choose what you did. You took a test, if you did well, you were admitted to the pre-college high school, if you showed an aptitude for mechanical things, you went the voc-ed route.
When DS was in HS there was a voc-ed type curriculum, a pre-college (advanced) type curriculum, and then a kind of 'general studies' course which, in effect, didn't prepare the kids for much at all. A minimum of 'hard' classes were required (like math and science). When DS graduated, he was about 14th in a class of a couple hundred students, and almost all the kids who had a better GPA then he did were this 'general studies' type student who took a lot of electives, band, art, etc. Yes they had good grades but did they learn anything that would prepare them for the next stage of their life?
I know in this country we wouldn't want to pigeonhole our kids and set them on their course in life at 6th grade. We want our kids to be able to not do so well in HS and still, ultimately, enroll in college - and I know lots of kids who goofed off waaay too much but managed to get their boat straighened out as a young adult. Certainly they should get the chance to go to college if they want to.
But more needs to be demanded of our kids in HS. They shouldn't be allowed to skate. My DS didn't have a choice, I made him take math and science classes all four years. For electives he took things like drafting/autocad and took AP classes whenever he could. That gave him the base he needed to go to college and do really well. (He's an engineer, now). It isn't that my kid is smarter than the average bear. His dad and I didn't allow him to goof off through high school, taking easy classes and floating. IMHO way too many very smart kids are allowed to take the path of least possible resistance through HS, then get out and find their education, especially in math and science, is lacking to the point that they get crappy SAT grades and have to take remedial math and science classes before they can start a 'real' college degree.
I don't know who decided HS kids aren't capable of doing hard subjects, or who thought letting them slip through school without at least a beginning chemistry and biology class was a good thing to do.
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Post by workpublic on Sept 24, 2012 12:53:52 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 13:05:57 GMT -5
Your colleges, not so much. Trying to apply education at the college level to education at the K-12 level is a fool's errand. sorry, you mistook me. what i meant was that we should look at how colleges and universities are structured, staffed, and funded. obviously you are not going to teach advanced physics to 6 year olds.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 13:06:54 GMT -5
our colleges are still well regarded. if we look at how they work, we have a pretty good model for how public schools should function. And look at the cost of it to each student... One thing I will say is that public education never prepared us for college. In grade school, the teacher was expected to get each student to understand the material before continuing to other subjects. In college, the students were expected to understand the material, and the teacher continued their lessons no matter if a student understood it or not. This lead to a real awakening on my part as to how dumbed down my grade school education was. College seemed like it went at a much more rapid pace where, especially in the beginning, I had trouble keeping up with it...whereas I was normally bored in HS waiting for other students to catch up to those of us who already understood the material. i would be very surprised if you didn't think there was something "in" all of that for grade school kids.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 13:07:42 GMT -5
it is still 100% in effect in 1/3 of the states. it is still MOSTLY in effect in the other 2/3. at least from a policy standpoint.
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Post by weltschmerz on Sept 24, 2012 13:17:56 GMT -5
Linking these tests also allowed us to compare the performance of students in each state with that of students in other countries. The results are scary. Even in Massachusetts, with its renowned collection of public and private schools, students reach only the level attained by students in the entire nations of Canada, Japan, and Switzerland. Massachusetts, the only U.S. state with a majority of students (51 percent) above the proficiency mark, trails well behind students in South Korea and Finland, as well as those in top-performing Shanghai. The percentage proficient in the state of New York (30 percent) is equivalent to that achieved by students in debt-ridden Portugal and Spain. California, the home of highly skilled Silicon Valley, has a math proficiency rate of 24 percent, the same as bankrupt Greece and just a notch above struggling Russia. By the time we get down to New Mexico and Mississippi, we are making comparisons with Serbia and Bulgaria (see graphic on next page). President Obama, to his credit, has highlighted the problem repeatedly. But too many state education officials have done their best to obfuscate the low performance of their students. Under the educational accountability rules set down by the federal law No Child Left Behind, each state may set its own proficiency standard, and most have set their standards well below the world-class level. As a result, most state proficiency reports grossly inflate the percentage of students who are proficient, if we account for the fact that our students need to compete not just with others from the same state but also with those across the globe. www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/08/28/why-can-t-u-s-students-compete-with-the-rest-of-the-world.html
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Post by workpublic on Sept 24, 2012 13:21:39 GMT -5
why did the democrats side with bush to institute it? topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/n/no_child_left_behind_act/index.htmlFirst passed during the Johnson administration as the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, it was rebranded as part of its last major overhaul in 2001, when Democrats joined with President George W. Bush to make its focus the use of standardized test scores in schools, particularly those serving minority students i despise bush as much as the next lib. but he ain't here no more. he left the ball and went home.
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 13:22:03 GMT -5
And look at the cost of it to each student... One thing I will say is that public education never prepared us for college. In grade school, the teacher was expected to get each student to understand the material before continuing to other subjects. In college, the students were expected to understand the material, and the teacher continued their lessons no matter if a student understood it or not. This lead to a real awakening on my part as to how dumbed down my grade school education was. College seemed like it went at a much more rapid pace where, especially in the beginning, I had trouble keeping up with it...whereas I was normally bored in HS waiting for other students to catch up to those of us who already understood the material. i would be very surprised if you didn't think there was something "in" all of that for grade school kids. "I teach math" or "I teach students math".
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 13:23:11 GMT -5
the tyranny of the test means that educators will commit fraud to be able to go about their business.
this is the problem with capricious laws and standards that do NOTHING for the people they are designed to "help". this is why they will NEVER work.
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Post by workpublic on Sept 24, 2012 13:24:33 GMT -5
this is the problem with capricious laws and standards that do NOTHING for the people they are designed to "help". this is why they will NEVER work. like the ACA?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 13:24:52 GMT -5
why did the democrats side with bush to institute it? topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/n/no_child_left_behind_act/index.htmlFirst passed during the Johnson administration as the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, it was rebranded as part of its last major overhaul in 2001, when Democrats joined with President George W. Bush to make its focus the use of standardized test scores in schools, particularly those serving minority students really really bad idea.i despise bush as much as the next lib. but he ain't here no more. he left the ball and went home. until the mess is mopped up, he is still here.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 13:25:48 GMT -5
this is the problem with capricious laws and standards that do NOTHING for the people they are designed to "help". this is why they will NEVER work. like the ACA? you don't think that the ACA will do anything for people?
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 24, 2012 13:44:49 GMT -5
I'm heading out for a while, but before I go, I'm going to lob a grenade into the mix.
What if the problem isn't with the schools?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 24, 2012 13:46:20 GMT -5
I'm heading out for a while, but before I go, I'm going to lob a grenade into the mix. What if the problem isn't with the schools? i think that is what i postulated in post 1. but i have a feeling you think it is not standards, either.
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 13:47:37 GMT -5
I'm heading out for a while, but before I go, I'm going to lob a grenade into the mix. What if the problem isn't with the schools? I would say that you have landed that grenade right on target.
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 24, 2012 14:45:02 GMT -5
It's not that independent programs have not been done and tried in our schools...with great success..The movie "Stand and Deliver" which the principal person , teacher Mr. James Escalante said was 90 % true , 10 % fiction..[not bad for these type of things] that had such a success in higher mathematics but ran into bureaucratic jealousies , IMHO, and eventually had those involved with the program leaving and that all the success of the program shortly, with in a few years , left with them , that seemed fine with the bureaucrats who caused the demise of the program. In reading the wicki on the program, it's brought out that the class size had jumped from a max of 35 to 50 because of demand ...yet I was thinking..if all the students are volunteering to take that class , size really doesn't matter, except for questions raised by students..which if unable to be answered right then and there can be done after class or after school..office hours and such..but the size of the class isn't going to enter into problems because of disciplinary reasons..the students want to be there, are there to learn and not going to cause disciplinary problems..if so, students them selves will probably handle that .. Had classes in college that were lecture classes with many students ..seemed to do just fine. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_EscalanteAs successful as Mr Escalante was , he most likely would never had achieved his success if it wasn't for his Principal , Henry Gradillas ...who also ran up against the burocratic jealousies and was forced from the school distrct in time.. However he wrote a book on the experiences 25 years after all the hallabaloo was over that iss till relevant according to the author of the following article..One of the subjects touched on in the book is the feeling that underperforming teachers should be fired..he disagrees and tells why.. www.henrygradillas.com/a/j/in-the-press/12-surprising-truths-from-superstar-principal--------------------------------------- By Jay Mathews, The Washington Post Originally published 5:30 AM ET, 12/ 3/2010. . "Henry Gradillas was the principal of Garfield High School in the 1980s when the chairman of its math department, a Bolivian immigrant named Jaime Escalante, became the most famous teacher in the United States. Escalante, about whom I wrote a book, was an amazing educator, but he would never have gained such renown and become the subject of the film "Stand and Deliver" if it had not been for Gradillas. I have never seen in action an urban high school principal as good as Gradillas [pronounced gra-DEE-us] was. His example influences everything I (and a lot of other people) think about how to make schools better. So when Gradillas told me he was going to write his own book of advice for school leaders, I encouraged him, although I feared that 25 years after the peak of his career many of his views would be out of date. He is still a vigorous man, with a handsome crop of white hair. He still works as a tutor and substitute teacher in Wisconsin. But much of the jargon and many of the issues have changed since his time in Los Angeles. I feared that at age 76 he would sound like an old coot rather than the vibrant and clever administrator I remembered. Boy, was I wrong. His book just came out. It is "Standing and Delivering: What the Movie Didn't Tell," co-authored with teacher and writer Jerry Jesness. The publisher is Rowman & Littlefield. I read it on the plane coming back from Thanksgiving in California. I disturbed my wife and son with my frantic underlining and frequent exclamations of wonder and surprise. It is a terrific book filled with great stories." More importantly, it is painfully relevant to what we are arguing about in city schools these days. I say painful because Gradillas in some cases persuasively contradicts policies that many education leaders I admire have been pursuing.
A popular approach to improving schools is to weed out the weak teachers right away. Gradillas says that is a bad idea. Many good-hearted reformers assume that the best teachers in their schools are going to support their efforts most strongly. Gradillas found that was not so, for very important reasons.To read the whole article click on above link..
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 24, 2012 15:15:34 GMT -5
From ZH: All we can say is that the need for the Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too has never been greater. At least the data below explains why the Chairsatan will soon monetize SAT scores and his infatuation with morer, greaterest QEternity+1...
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 15:45:15 GMT -5
From ZH: All we can say is that the need for the Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too has never been greater. At least the data below explains why the Chairsatan will soon monetize SAT scores and his infatuation with morer, greaterest QEternity+1...
1974 Beginning with the October test, several significant changes are made to the SAT. The number of reading comprehension questions is reduced to about 30% of the verbal portion of the SAT, in favor of more antonym and analogy questions.
2005 Beginning with the March SAT, the content of the test is changed, at least partly in response to the UC criticisms. The "Verbal Reasoning" section of the SAT is renamed "Critical Reading", and the verbal analogy questions are dropped. www.erikthered.com/tutor/sat-act-history.htmlSometimes it is the test.
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