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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 12:17:47 GMT -5
i think so. education should foster creativity, and personal strengths, not try to create little robots which do menial tasks in response to authority or need (as defined on the Maslow scale). if one were to devise the perfect system for destroying creativity, i think that it would resemble NCLB. here is what i think we SHOULD be doing: www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/keep in mind that the Finnish system is wildly successful when you read this, and ask yourself: could it possibly be more different than NCLB: The answers Finland provides seem to run counter to just about everything America's school reformers are trying to do.For starters, Finland has no standardized tests. The only exception is what's called the National Matriculation Exam, which everyone takes at the end of a voluntary upper-secondary school, roughly the equivalent of American high school.
Instead, the public school system's teachers are trained to assess children in classrooms using independent tests they create themselves. All children receive a report card at the end of each semester, but these reports are based on individualized grading by each teacher. Periodically, the Ministry of Education tracks national progress by testing a few sample groups across a range of different schools.
As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."
For Sahlberg what matters is that in Finland all teachers and administrators are given prestige, decent pay, and a lot of responsibility. A master's degree is required to enter the profession, and teacher training programs are among the most selective professional schools in the country. If a teacher is bad, it is the principal's responsibility to notice and deal with it.
And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 12:24:43 GMT -5
It looks good, doesn't it? This country would have to turn itself inside out to get there, however. Sometimes, it seems everything we do is some sort of competition. Being a "wonderful me" just isn't good enough, sadly.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 12:31:32 GMT -5
It looks good, doesn't it? This country would have to turn itself inside out to get there, however. Sometimes, it seems everything we do is some sort of competition. Being a "wonderful me" just isn't good enough, sadly. i don't want to hear any pragmatists. if something needs doing, we should do it.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 23, 2012 12:40:06 GMT -5
We have to acknowledge that this is an enormously wealthy country (a median net worth of more than 3 times the US median net worth) with barely over 5 million people, DJ. The whole country basically sits on a heap of natural resources.
I'm not saying US education isn't in dire need of an overhaul, but a fair comparison would take the richest x cities and town in America (up to 5 million citizens total), quantify the academic performance of their private schools, and use that as a baseline.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 12:46:34 GMT -5
It looks good, doesn't it? This country would have to turn itself inside out to get there, however. Sometimes, it seems everything we do is some sort of competition. Being a "wonderful me" just isn't good enough, sadly. i don't want to hear any pragmatists. if something needs doing, we should do it. LOL! Yeah, I know. My pragmatic foot inevitably finds its way to my philosophical mouth, dj. Dammit! ;D
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 12:46:36 GMT -5
We have to acknowledge that this is an enormously wealthy country (a median net worth of more than 3 times the US median net worth) with barely over 5 million people, DJ. The whole country basically sits on a heap of natural resources. I'm not saying US education isn't in dire need of an overhaul, but a fair comparison would take the richest x cities and town in America (up to 5 million citizens total), quantify the academic performance of their private schools, and use that as a baseline. i will ONLY acknowledge that we can do anything we put our minds to. it is simply a matter of priorities. i refuse to consider that our size prevents us from being great.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 23, 2012 13:02:01 GMT -5
Define "great". In terms of impact on the world, the US has been number 1 for a century while Finland is barely a footnote.
In terms of "world class education for everybody", you're never going to match them. Per capita, they're vastly wealthier than you. Their culture is so homogenous and their population so small that 95% of the problems with US government don't even apply to them.
America is large, and many blessings have come with that. Smaller nations also enjoy blessings, especially if they happen to be extremely wealthy smaller nations.
Strive to improve, but don't start out with the notion that you must have your cake and eat it too. It's a recipe for failure.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 13:09:10 GMT -5
in the context of this discussion, great would be in the top 5 nations in terms of test scores by world standards. if you want to talk about defense spending, we are already great.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 23, 2012 13:16:24 GMT -5
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 23, 2012 15:49:06 GMT -5
I would point out that the article in the OP claims dumping standardized test scores is step 1 in improving the education system. Or I would point out that the same article links to a news story: Economist Richard Duncan: Civilization May Not Survive 'Death Spiral' By Terry Weiss, Money Morning
Richard Duncan, formerly of the World Bank and chief economist at Blackhorse Asset Mgmt., says America's $16 trillion federal debt has escalated into a "death spiral, "as he told CNBC.
And it could result in a depression so severe that he doesn't "think our civilization could survive it."
And Duncan is not alone in warning that the U.S. economy may go into a "death spiral."
Since the recession, noted economists including Laurence Kotlikoff, a former member of President Reagan's Council of Economic Advisers, have come to similar conclusions.
Kotlikoff estimates the true fiscal gap is $211 trillion when unfunded entitlements like Social Security and Medicare are included.
However, while the debt crisis numbers are well known to most Americans, the economy hasn't suffered a major correction for almost 4 years.
So the questions remain: Is the threat of collapse for real? And if so, when?
A team of scientists, economists, and geopolitical analysts believes they have proof that the threat is indeed real - and the danger imminent. which suggests, as I often have, that the US currently has bigger problems to worry about than raising its PISA survey scores. Or I would point out that the PISA survey is chock-a-block full of AGW rhetoric and doubles as an indoctrination tool. (As an aside: is this really what passes for 15-year-old [grade 9] math? Saaaad panda. ) But instead, I'll just point out that the US will always have to make room for Canada as no. 1, that you failed to capitalize both of your sentences, you omitted the necessary quotes on the word "great", and you misspelled "defence". ;D
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Post by weltschmerz on Sept 23, 2012 16:17:57 GMT -5
Strive to improve, but don't start out with the notion that you must have your cake and eat it too. It's a recipe for failure. --------------- I always hated that expression. What's the point of having cake if you can't eat it?
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2012 16:24:17 GMT -5
Strive to improve, but don't start out with the notion that you must have your cake and eat it too. It's a recipe for failure. --------------- I always hated that expression. What's the point of having cake if you can't eat it? Once you eat the cake, you no longer have the cake.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 16:28:13 GMT -5
Sooo, eat part of the cake and save the rest until it gets moldy.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 23, 2012 16:30:42 GMT -5
I had the same grievance until somebody pointed out that a part of enjoying cake (especially elaborate cakes) is admiring their beauty and relishing the anticipation of the treat to come. That's "having your cake". As soon as you eat it, you've destroyed the artwork and ended the anticipation. Wiki claims the proverb dates back in English to the 16th century, and various equivalents go back to time immemorial. I like the Italian equivalent of the proverb too : Avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca "to have the barrel full and the wife drunk"
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Post by tallguy on Sept 23, 2012 21:10:29 GMT -5
Strive to improve, but don't start out with the notion that you must have your cake and eat it too. It's a recipe for failure. --------------- I always hated that expression. What's the point of having cake if you can't eat it? It's a lot easier to understand if it isn't misquoted. It should be, "You cannot eat your cake and have it too." Because so many people screwed it up it has become commonplace, but it is still in error.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:23:49 GMT -5
Strive to improve, but don't start out with the notion that you must have your cake and eat it too. It's a recipe for failure. --------------- I always hated that expression. What's the point of having cake if you can't eat it? in the context of this argument, i am not sure what represents the cake and what represents the eating. but i am not arguing for having everything. i am arguing against having NOTHING, and paying dearly for it, in every sense of the term.
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 23, 2012 22:32:16 GMT -5
I was pretty much done with K-12 by the time we came to US. I went to US private high school for a year (I think) and I was absolutely shocked that US was as powerful and strong as it was bc frankly, I couldn't understand how anyone could do/invent/produce anything after they received that type of education. That was over 20 yrs ago.
I don't think US could sustain Finland's kind of system. The mentality of a lot of people, going back generations at this point would have to change very drastically. US has become all about rights and not much about responsibilities. You can have the best system ever, but with that kind of mentality/attitude you won't achieve much
Lena
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:39:10 GMT -5
I was pretty much done with K-12 by the time we came to US. I went to US private high school for a year (I think) and I was absolutely shocked that US was as powerful and strong as it was bc frankly, I couldn't understand how anyone could do/invent/produce anything after they received that type of education. That was over 20 yrs ago. I don't think US could sustain Finland's kind of system. The mentality of a lot of people, going back generations at this point would have to change very drastically. US has become all about rights and not much about responsibilities. You can have the best system ever, but with that kind of mentality/attitude you won't achieve much Lena you're right. maybe we should legalize pot first. ;D
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 23, 2012 22:40:35 GMT -5
The cake is a lie.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:42:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 22:43:24 GMT -5
NEVER eat urinal cake....
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 23, 2012 22:44:08 GMT -5
...and childhood obesity is a problem, anyway...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:46:06 GMT -5
NEVER eat urinal cake.... in South Africa they call it "Toilet Duck".
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 23, 2012 22:58:38 GMT -5
*sigh* Y'all need to play more video games. That Portal reference was tight
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 23, 2012 22:59:01 GMT -5
i think so. education should foster creativity, and personal strengths, not try to create little robots which do menial tasks in response to authority or need (as defined on the Maslow scale). if one were to devise the perfect system for destroying creativity, i think that it would resemble NCLB. here is what i think we SHOULD be doing: www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/keep in mind that the Finnish system is wildly successful when you read this, and ask yourself: could it possibly be more different than NCLB: The answers Finland provides seem to run counter to just about everything America's school reformers are trying to do.For starters, Finland has no standardized tests. The only exception is what's called the National Matriculation Exam, which everyone takes at the end of a voluntary upper-secondary school, roughly the equivalent of American high school.
Instead, the public school system's teachers are trained to assess children in classrooms using independent tests they create themselves. All children receive a report card at the end of each semester, but these reports are based on individualized grading by each teacher. Periodically, the Ministry of Education tracks national progress by testing a few sample groups across a range of different schools.
As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."
For Sahlberg what matters is that in Finland all teachers and administrators are given prestige, decent pay, and a lot of responsibility. A master's degree is required to enter the profession, and teacher training programs are among the most selective professional schools in the country. If a teacher is bad, it is the principal's responsibility to notice and deal with it.
And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.
I wonder if it is fair to compare a country, Finland, with a estimated population in 2012 of 5,200,000 plus with a country of excess of 315 million...in any catagory ...plus so many differences...population diversity, languages diversity, land size differences by so much, world wide responsibilities, influence...beyon being aware of ..possible studying certain aspects of as a model for some inclusion of some aspects to see if it might help a problem in a small way? As far as NCLB being a bust or not..have to let those who have a more vested interest and possible kids in the system make that call..I am to far away from that time and think from my personal experience public educattion, granted a few warts but over all, a real success..more then adequate, yet by my readings I know it isn't any longer.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 23:12:26 GMT -5
i think so. education should foster creativity, and personal strengths, not try to create little robots which do menial tasks in response to authority or need (as defined on the Maslow scale). if one were to devise the perfect system for destroying creativity, i think that it would resemble NCLB. here is what i think we SHOULD be doing: www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/keep in mind that the Finnish system is wildly successful when you read this, and ask yourself: could it possibly be more different than NCLB: The answers Finland provides seem to run counter to just about everything America's school reformers are trying to do.For starters, Finland has no standardized tests. The only exception is what's called the National Matriculation Exam, which everyone takes at the end of a voluntary upper-secondary school, roughly the equivalent of American high school.
Instead, the public school system's teachers are trained to assess children in classrooms using independent tests they create themselves. All children receive a report card at the end of each semester, but these reports are based on individualized grading by each teacher. Periodically, the Ministry of Education tracks national progress by testing a few sample groups across a range of different schools.
As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."
For Sahlberg what matters is that in Finland all teachers and administrators are given prestige, decent pay, and a lot of responsibility. A master's degree is required to enter the profession, and teacher training programs are among the most selective professional schools in the country. If a teacher is bad, it is the principal's responsibility to notice and deal with it.
And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.
I wonder if it is fair to compare a country, Finland, with a estimated population in 2012 of 5,200,000 plus with a country of excess of 315 million...in any catagory ...plus so many differences...population diversity, languages diversity, land size differences by so much, world wide responsibilities, influence...beyon being aware of ..possible studying certain aspects of as a model for some inclusion of some aspects to see if it might help a problem in a small way? As far as NCLB being a bust or not..have to let those who have a more vested interest and possible kids in the system make that call..I am to far away from that time and think from my personal experience public educattion, granted a few warts but over all, a real success..more then adequate, yet by my readings I know it isn't any longer. i am not really interested in hearing about NCLB any more. i know what works, and it is pretty much the opposite of NCLB. so, if we want a successful system, the very first step would be to dismantle NCLB and put something in it's place that actually helps achievement. if one wants to argue in favor of NCLB, i would like to see ANY evidence that it is doing anything other than attempting to quantify a system that is intrinsically qualitative- with predictable results. i think the most enlightening part of the article was the sentence i highlighted in RED, above. this is so far from how we think that i doubt we could ever do anything like what Finland did. but unlike most people here, i think this is a problem we should work on, and fix, not just simply say "it's impractical" and move on.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 23, 2012 23:15:02 GMT -5
*sigh* Y'all need to play more video games. That Portal reference was tight I got it. The rest of everyone here needs to play more video games. ;D
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 23, 2012 23:26:33 GMT -5
*sigh* Y'all need to play more video games. That Portal reference was tight I got it. The rest of everyone here needs to play more video games. ;D I need to go replay Portal... every other game has paled compared to its genius. All school children should have to play it too.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 24, 2012 1:42:28 GMT -5
Try Portal 2, Loopy.
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 24, 2012 7:59:34 GMT -5
if a cake is a pie, that makes it a pake. A pie bakes at a different rate than a cake. Try making one with a pie base one time
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