shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 28, 2012 15:27:44 GMT -5
While I certainly understand the OP's desire and need to vent (as the sole breadwinner in my relationship, trust me, I get it), I'm also sympathizing a bit with the SO. It may be that the SO is being laid off because he's not a stellar performer, but honestly, how many people, at any job, are stellar performers? We're normally talking top 25% or less, so that leaves the majority of people in the non-stellar category. There's also the fact taht a lot of companies do lay-offs based on tenure, NOT performance. That is because it is MUCH more expensive to lay off somone who has worked for you for 10 years than it is someone who has worked for you for 2 years. It may be that the SO is a perfectly competent worker (and trust me, I will take competent any day of the week), but is now always near the top of the lay off list because of lack of tenure. Companies also sometimes have odd thought processes around lay offs. When my DH lost his job back in 2009, the company made thier decision based on the following logic: sales guys can't give tech support, but tech support guys can sell things. So, they laid off their sales guys and switched the sales functions to the tech support guys, even though both the sales guys were stellar performers and had longer tenure than the majority of the tech support guys. So while the layoff wasn't random, it also wasn't based on performance or tenure, but on the CEO's version of logic.
I agree that not following through on the Microsoft Cert is a pretty big deal, because they are quite expensive.
I do want to try and be helpful here, though. So I want to give a couple of suggestions. 1) What is your communication style saying? The OP talked to the SO about changing careers. When the SO mentioned teaching, the OP had two reactions reactions that set the situation back. a. Why would you go into something that doesn't pay much? Isn't any paycheck better than no paycheck? Especially if you can live just fine on your pay alone? Why should money be the first consideration in picking a job? b. How are YOU going to pay for it? Unless the couple has separate finances (which it didn't sound to me like they did from the OP), why is it up to the SO alone to pay for schooling? If the OP wants the SO to switch fields, there has to be an understanding that there will be a cost in time and money for the SO to get the proper training for the new field. If this is being done for the overall long term happiness of the SO (and therefore of the relationship), then this should be a joint effort. Even if the OP wants the SO to take the initiative to figure out total cost, scholarships, grants, loans, etc, the question should still be "How are WE going to pay for it?".
2) I think the OP should post a budget here, even though they can get by on OP's salary alone. The OP doesn't feel like they can get ahead in the current situation, with the SO experiencing periodic layoffs. They took the initiative this last time and banked all of the SO's pay. That sounds like getting plenty ahead to me. However, if this feels like a major setback, maybe the budget should be looked at, so that the OP can feel like they are getting ahead even when the SO is out of work- even if it is not as much progress, at least it is something. And feeling that little bit more in control of the situation may really help.
3) Talk to the SO about household duties. Yes, looking for a job is important and should be treated as a job in and of itself. But honestly, does anyone ever actually spend 40 hours a week job hunting? And, except on days where there are interviews, there is no commute time. There can (and probably should) be a temporary rejuggling of household duties. (I'll be honest here, though- I don't believe there should ever be fully static household chores. Every week at our house different people do different percentages of the work based on work and school schedules and other demands on our time.) Transportation issues with the child do definitely need to be scheduled, and I do think the SO should be able to cover those, again with the exception of interviews (since you can't always choose your interview time).
OP, I wish you and your family the best of luck.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 28, 2012 15:33:35 GMT -5
We had two threads in the last month (mine, and the "friends SAHW doesn't do anything") as well as countless others over the years, which prove that when you are married, your spouse can dig in his/her heels and place the onus for action squarely on your shoulders. You can try a bunch of stuff (talk, reason, negotiate, threaten, beg, plead, starve off their access to money/car, stop doing your share of the work...) but that person ain't working until that person feels like working. You are pretty much forced to initiate divorce (pay them to leave), make peace with it and support an able bodied adult in perpetuity, or do something amoral and/or downright illegal to fix the problem. It pretty much comes down to the fact you can't make someone do something they don't want to do. Having an open discussion about the subject & why they don't seem to care to work & how they feel about it & how you perceive the situation & how you feel about it is about the best you can do. The situation might change when everyone's feeling are laid on the table, but after that you need to decide if it is a hill you want to die on (or divorce over).
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Post by stl76 on Mar 28, 2012 15:43:42 GMT -5
"Why would you go into something that doesn't pay much? Isn't any paycheck better than no paycheck? Especially if you can live just fine on your pay alone? Why should money be the first consideration in picking a job?"
Just because they can pay their bills on one's paycheck doesn't mean the other gets to pick an easy career or doesn't need to work as hard. It will only cause resentment if one gets to make his choices based on the fun stuff (summers off, etc) and the other HAS to in a job that pays enough to pay the bills.
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Post by stl76 on Mar 28, 2012 15:46:23 GMT -5
"if you have a huge safety net and you're not seeing any benefit to having a second income - how hard are you going to work to avoid a layoff? Hell, if we were banking all of my salary and they were considering layoffs where I work, my first thought wouldn't be that I had to suddenly be the best employee ever. If I got cut, I'd not only have all my expenses covered, but I'd still have the same standard of living."
If my SO thought since his paycheck is being banked and mine is enough to have a good lifestyle that he didn't have to work, I would not be happy.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 28, 2012 15:57:12 GMT -5
stl: I'd agree with you if the OP had said anything about want to change positions herself, being unhappy in her field, or just wishing she could have some extra time off, but it's not there. And won't there be less resentment if the SO is working a regular job (even one with summers off) that brings in a paycheck, than not working at all (every day off) and not bringing in a paycheck? I don't believe that all spouses of teachers resent them. I don't believe that all people who make enough to support their families on a single income resent their SOs who work at lower paying jobs, or jobs with better benefits, or who don't work at all. I certainly don't resent DH, even though I work full time as the sole breadwinner and he's in school as a full time student. And I LOVE being in school. I didn't resent him during his two years of unemployment/census work, when he got a UE check for job hunting, while I went to work every day. Sometimes, I do have issues when I start to feel like I'm taking on more than my share of housework or other responsibilities, but I usually start geting really snippy with DH and then "blow up" at him long before there's ever any actual resentment But at the same time, I don't see the money in our account as "mine". It's "ours". Because that's the choice we made.
IF the OP is really unhappy in her job, than that does need to be a discussion with SO. And perhaps a plan needs to be put in place for the SO to get a job and the OP to find a way to switch careers. After all, they have a significant EF built up, so there's certainly the funds to support them while that happens.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 28, 2012 16:00:27 GMT -5
And I guess I should add, if the OP and SO can not find ways to be happy at the same time/together in the relationship, than it is probably time to look at not being in the relationship.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 28, 2012 16:15:53 GMT -5
It pretty much comes down to the fact you can't make someone do something they don't want to do. Having an open discussion about the subject & why they don't seem to care to work & how they feel about it & how you perceive the situation & how you feel about it is about the best you can do. The situation might change when everyone's feeling are laid on the table, but after that you need to decide if it is a hill you want to die on (or divorce over). That list was exhausting and depressing. Woohoo to being single! I have spent enough time trying to change someone or fix someone. Totally isn't worth it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 28, 2012 16:16:36 GMT -5
If someone gets upset when their SO calls them out on them not working or pulling their weight, that says volumes right there. No one should have to even say anything when this happens. It should be understood that you work, period.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 28, 2012 16:17:43 GMT -5
We had two threads in the last month (mine, and the "friends SAHW doesn't do anything") as well as countless others over the years, which prove that when you are married, your spouse can dig in his/her heels and place the onus for action squarely on your shoulders. You can try a bunch of stuff (talk, reason, negotiate, threaten, beg, plead, starve off their access to money/car, stop doing your share of the work...) but that person ain't working until that person feels like working. You are pretty much forced to initiate divorce (pay them to leave), make peace with it and support an able bodied adult in perpetuity, or do something amoral and/or downright illegal to fix the problem. It pretty much comes down to the fact you can't make someone do something they don't want to do. Having an open discussion about the subject & why they don't seem to care to work & how they feel about it & how you perceive the situation & how you feel about it is about the best you can do. The situation might change when everyone's feeling are laid on the table, but after that you need to decide if it is a hill you want to die on (or divorce over). Exactly. We have this situation in my family - one of my DS got a 4 year degree in business, decided she didn't like it after working just a few years at it, quit work to get a masters in education, then got pregnant. Made an agreement with BIL that she would be a SAHM until the kids are in school, but the kids are now in middle school and she hasn't had a job that worked out yet. I don't think she's worked more than a year anyplace, and her longest effort was part time work, two half days a week. Meanwhile she wants the mcmansion and the SUV and two vacations a year. And whines constantly about how broke they are. I often wonder what BIL thinks of this but am way too polite to ask. Don't know what his options would be even if he wanted to try to change it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 28, 2012 16:20:14 GMT -5
You should have heard the EX try to get alimony out of DF when she has a college degree and is a CPA. Just decided she didn't want to or need to work, even to help put her kids through college. He told her when she got a full-time job, he'd pay alimony to make up the difference. She decided to take her millions and retire for good.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 16:26:13 GMT -5
If someone gets upset when their SO calls them out on them not working or pulling their weight, that says volumes right there. No one should have to even say anything when this happens. It should be understood that you work, period. Not necessarily. A marriage is a partnership. There are times when i was the sole wage earned, worked 4 jobs, and pulled more weight. Then, there were times when i had an illness, had to drastically cut back and DH pulled more weight. There are issues and circumstances that come and go. There are "seasons" to life and things change. We both found we preferred a downsized lifestyle. It is a question of "time versus money". Obviously, you want and need both but there is a balance to strike. We wanted more family time with each other and our children but there is a cost. And, i found our lives were much more relaxed and happy when one of us is home to take care of home duties. I would suggest the OP try to get to heart of what the issues are and find ways to make it work. It is fine to say what your spouse "should" do but if you want a harmonius relationship, you just work together.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 28, 2012 16:35:54 GMT -5
But whoever was home also worked. If that is what the two of you agreed on, then it's fine. The OP does not agree with her SO or whatever the person is not working.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 16:45:46 GMT -5
Of course, the OP has to deal with his/her relationship in whatever way they think is best.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 28, 2012 19:26:51 GMT -5
Kari - for your gender neutral response. I usually try to keep gender out of discussion because I noticed some of the people on here, who's opinions I usually respect highly, tend to have some very strong views on the traditional roles of women in the workforce vs child rearing. So, yes, I am female and my SO (DH) is male. The traditional roles in our household are reversed with him acting as the primary caregive for our child and me as the higher wage earner. Trust me, the whole family unit benefits from this arrangement rather than trying to stay in the traditional roles. However, I never asked to be the SOLE provider as I don't think it makes sense in these difficult times (for us, since the Y2K bubble burst). DH has been cancer free (thankfully) for the past 12+ years. It is not impacting his job performance. Some other posters asked good questions or made suggestions I'll answer in the next few posts. Appreciate the feedback all.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 28, 2012 20:03:42 GMT -5
And that works and makes sense for you so it's terrific. The issue seems to be, otherwise wise it wouldn't be brought up, that when the other partner is not okay with it.
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Post by naggie1972 on Mar 28, 2012 20:06:29 GMT -5
Most people that go into a new job in a NEW COMPANY know it will be touch and go whether or not the company will succeed, well I hope that people going into that have researched and know the company to be somewhat. A new employee in a new company would have to know the risks. Question for those who have been laid off, did you see it coming. There is a relatively big lay off coming up in a company here, if outsiders know it's coming surely the employees (or some/most employees) know. If they don't I would really question whether they are paying attention to anything going on when they sit in their employee cube.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 28, 2012 21:07:25 GMT -5
I don't think that both spouses have to work themselves to the bone all the time, but I'm struggling lately realizing that my dh has no desire to earn more money. He wants 'us' to earn more money, but none of his career plans/desires will get us there, leaving it all on me.
This has been an incredibly tough year, and I would love to ask my job to let me go part time for a few months to let me take care of everything going on, but instead I'm taking on projects for other branches and getting licensed so that I can hopefully earn commissions and raise our household income.
I totally get it that plans change, and I'm not mad at dh. I'm just tired and wish that I could take a break and regroup.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 28, 2012 21:08:21 GMT -5
She's venting here. I am sure he fully understands she has had enough of whatever he is up to. It always makes me wonder why people will jeopardize their relationships by pulling this nonsense? What adult expects another to support them? I understand the need/desire that some have for a SAHS and I fully support that choice but if the partner is NOT on board with the spouse being at home or continually quitting jobs or losing them on purpose, then what can you do?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 21:58:43 GMT -5
My thoughts may or may not have anything to do with the OP and her situation.
I think that for certain personalities, bringing in sufficient income may not be a priority to an individual that has a partner that can support their lifestyle by him/herself. What I mean is, all my purchasing power, saving power, depends solely on me. I'm not particularly ambitious, but going without income for an extended period of time is not an option. If I had a partner that was willing to be the primary breadwinner while I went back to school or took a pay cut for a job/career I even halfway liked, I'd go for it.
But because I'm all I have and I had children depending on me, I've sucked it up and did what I had to do. I couldn't just say "Oh well" if things didn't work out. Now that the children are young adults and my decisions will only affect me, I'm more open to taking risks. The key is that if I screw up, I'm the only one that has to deal with it. I don't have a spouse to consider and while I help my children, it's no longer my responsibility to take care of them.
If thecaptain needs to vent about SO losing jobs, she probably would prefer not to be the sole breadwinner. That's a decision best made as a team, and it doesn't sound like that's what's happening so it needs to be sorted out.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 28, 2012 21:59:01 GMT -5
She's venting here. I am sure he fully understands she has had enough of whatever he is up to. It always makes me wonder why people will jeopardize their relationships by pulling this nonsense? What adult expects another to support them? I understand the need/desire that some have for a SAHS and I fully support that choice but if the partner is NOT on board with the spouse being at home or continually quitting jobs or losing them on purpose, then what can you do? You figure out a solution together that works for your family or you divorce. It seems pretty simple to me--is this a hill worth dying on? If not, start brainstorming solutions.
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NotSoFair
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Post by NotSoFair on Mar 28, 2012 22:20:00 GMT -5
OP,
Is he experienced in Java or C++? If so, I know one company that is hiring like crazy. Please let me know if you are interested.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 29, 2012 6:23:03 GMT -5
If someone gets upset when their SO calls them out on them not working or pulling their weight, that says volumes right there. No one should have to even say anything when this happens. It should be understood that you work, period.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 6:29:08 GMT -5
I am not 'pro-traditional roles' ... I am pro- understanding the challenges of being a primary care giver.... especially the dual rules of being a working primary care giver... and giving respect and acknowledgement to the primary care giver for that WORK as well...
I am not saying that the OP does not, but it seems perhaps that the role of primary care giver is glossed over? It is not at all unusual for primary care givers to be teachers... who are on the same schedule as children and can be more receptive to their needs... Why is it necessary for husband to BOTH be the primary care giver and not settle for a 'low pay' job... ??
ETA: not sure how old the child is?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 29, 2012 6:30:26 GMT -5
OP, Is he experienced in Java or C++? If so, I know one company that is hiring like crazy. Please let me know if you are interested. I wish he was, but there is zero desire to do any programming because it does not interest him. I guess that is where a lot of my frustration comes from, all the hot areas in IT either do not interest him, or take too much work to keep up with. Before you jump all over me about being too hard on him, remember - we've had this discussion many times and that's why HE SUGGESTED the Microsoft certification. We shelled out (I can't remember exactly) between 600 - 800 for the course and books. He did maybe two to three online sessions and never finished. This was over a decade ago.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 29, 2012 6:41:33 GMT -5
I am not 'pro-traditional roles' ... I am pro- understanding the challenges of being a primary care giver.... especially the dual rules of being a working primary care giver... and giving respect and acknowledgement to the primary care giver for that WORK as well... I am not saying that the OP does not, but it seems perhaps that the role of primary care giver is glossed over? It is not at all unusual for primary care givers to be teachers... who are on the same schedule as children and can be more receptive to their needs... Why is it necessary for husband to BOTH be the primary care giver and not settle for a 'low pay' job... ?? You raise good points, and let me be very clear - I am very aware and grateful (and communicate constantly esp to his parents) that I could not have progressed as far in my career as I have, if we did not have him acting as the primary caregiver. Is is a very important role and I don't mind him taking pay cuts to be able to full fill this role. Case in point, his salary now is lower than it was in 2000. I'm not looking for big bucks, but as an accountant I have to ask does it make sense for a 40 something person to shell out major bucks for a new BS and Masters degree (what you need to have to get any kind of decent salary around here in teaching and by decent I mean starting at 40k, he did look into it, jobs are scarce) when if you invested a little time in your current skill set you would be much more marketable? My issue is more that even when the writing is on the wall there is no desire to plan or prepare. His company (around for over 30 years) was just sold from one investment group to another. I suggested he keep his resume updated and keep an eye on the market. When they started laying people off from his location he said there was no reason he couln't do his job from home and was pinning his hopes on that. It was only when the letter came home announcing his last day that he finally started working on his resume and looking at job listings.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 29, 2012 6:45:14 GMT -5
I guess that is where a lot of my frustration comes from, all the hot areas in IT either do not interest him, or take too much work to keep up with. ( Would your stress go down if your SO stayed employed long term at a lower paying job? How much have the layoffs effected his total overall earnings, and how much of a paycut would it really be when you include the unemployed periods? If he has a bachelors, here anyway he can sub a few days a week, while he gets his teaching certificate. Discuss both of your thoughts on a masters degree before going down that path so there is a plan. ETA--just saw your last post. I'd struggle with paying for that much schooling to start a 40k career as well. Although it does sound like IT may just not be his thing anymore. If he doesn't have that drive to do it just because it pays well, a career change may still payoff more.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 29, 2012 6:53:54 GMT -5
Our child is 9. When she turns 12 the plan is for the money currently spent on childcare to go into savings for her college.
As stated before, financially we are in good shape. EF = 6-8 months of total household expenses (which I can cover on my salary alone). Note, it would have been much higher but around a year and a half ago we had to do an entire septic system replacement (unplanned) which included tearing up concrete in the basement and reworking all the plumbing in the basement. The cost of the project was over 30k and we paid cash. Another example of why it's good to have a solid EF ;D
I believe we should be able to start building up non retirement investments at this point in our lives. I would also like to be able to start getting into rental properties to generate income streams outside of employment. I don't want to have to work until I am 70 and honestly, due to health issues, think I'd be lucky to be able to work until 62. Don't want to get into detail on that topic but just accept my plan since my mother died from the same condition at age 65.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 6:57:15 GMT -5
I would never recommend getting a masters before looking for a teacher's job. My teaching job PAID for my masters degree... and in this market it actually can be EASIER to get in the door if they don't have to pay you as much....
To me is sounds like you are very interested not just in his working, but in his bringing home what you consider to be 'reasonably good money'... I understand the impulse, but maybe you should examine where this comes from? ... what is important, that he is full time employed? That he brings home a certain number? ... and why...
There are several teaching programs that actually make it quite easy for a person with a bachelors degree to obtain a teaching certificate... sometimes even while working at the same time, particularly if he looks at teaching at a technical school, where they are used to their teachres coming from a career into teaching... and while teaching jobs in general may be down, anecdotally, i've viewed several adds for tech teachers in the last few months....
How about you test his resolve... rather than downing/dismissing the idea out of hand, have him reasearch what it really takes to change careers at this point and see if he follows through with the research....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 7:03:26 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2012 7:52:15 GMT -5
You come here and vent all you need to but I agree, no more money out the door until he brings money in the door. The reason he can do this is because you pay the bills. If he had to support himself, he would hustle. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just that it is what it is.
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