jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jul 13, 2011 12:53:58 GMT -5
Good point, and it's always going to be that way with the current system. Why is it that the public schools spend more per student than most private schools and they have still gone to rack and ruin? Answer: because the current system is fatally flawed. It makes bad assumptions (i.e., that ALL kids can be educated the same way), it is run by corrupt, redundant and useless bureaucracies, and it places a higher priority on satisfying the needs of its unionized teachers and administrators than on the education of the children. It's never going to work, and for some reason a lot of people (mostly liberals) can't understand that...too bad. so what do you both propose to do with these sort of kids, differently from how they are handled now? do you suggest that they be put out of education entirely? that's not good either. With a voucher system the school can boot their ass out...so the family can take their voucher to another school. If they get booted from there then they keep moving. Eventually some school will specialize in these little bastards who are disruptive and will accept them and teach them in a far more strict environment. If not, then the kid is no better and no worse than if they had been left to be disruptive in the public school...but the other kids will have vastly improved educations. I think that's where my big problem is with the "treat everyone the same" policies of the left...I'd rather help those that are putting in the effort and to hell with those that seem to care less. Let the little punks face the consequences of their stupidity. If the left wants them to have an education so badly, then they can form a voucher school to accept them and teach them using their desired practices of no tests, no grades, happy sushine stickers, and self-esteem classes. We'll see who comes out with the better educated group
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 13, 2011 12:54:35 GMT -5
vocational training is still education. I realize that, but it is not offered in our current public education system. They are putting kids on a "college track" who should not be there... then your school districts are deficient. here in MA, public vocational schools are available regionally for another option.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 12:55:06 GMT -5
Or maybe lead to those that actually value education to receive it? Thereby making their education that much better? I'm not sure how lumping those students that want to excel in with those that don't is somehow better for everyone?? I don't think any 12 year old values their education. The 41 year old me really values what the public schools I attended did for me. The 12 year old, not so much. [/quote] So then no 12 year-olds are excelling? I thought your argument was that some students excel despite the abysmal failures of our schools... So which is it?[/quote] The 12 year old me excelled. I just didn't give a crap.
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 13, 2011 12:56:53 GMT -5
I realize that, but it is not offered in our current public education system. They are putting kids on a "college track" who should not be there... then your school districts are deficient. No argument there.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 12:57:32 GMT -5
vocational training is still education. I realize that, but it is not offered in our current public education system. They are putting kids on a "college track" who should not be there... Really? The public HS's in NNY have an extensive BOCES program that includes vocational training.
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 13, 2011 12:59:28 GMT -5
California is supporting 10 million illegal aliens. There's no money for luxuries like educating children and providing alternatives for those who need them...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 13:00:58 GMT -5
California is supporting 10 million illegal aliens. There's no money for luxuries like educating children and providing alternatives for those who need them... Is having a literate society a luxury?
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 13, 2011 13:19:26 GMT -5
California is supporting 10 million illegal aliens. There's no money for luxuries like educating children and providing alternatives for those who need them... Is having a literate society a luxury? That was sarcasm. Sorry, I forgot...
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 13:21:53 GMT -5
Good point, and it's always going to be that way with the current system. Why is it that the public schools spend more per student than most private schools and they have still gone to rack and ruin? Answer: because the current system is fatally flawed. It makes bad assumptions (i.e., that ALL kids can be educated the same way), it is run by corrupt, redundant and useless bureaucracies, and it places a higher priority on satisfying the needs of its unionized teachers and administrators than on the education of the children. It's never going to work, and for some reason a lot of people (mostly liberals) can't understand that...too bad. eddie, do you now or have you ever taught or administered in a public school and are you or were you a member of a teacher's union?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 13:23:51 GMT -5
Is having a literate society a luxury? That was sarcasm. Sorry, I forgot... Here you go,
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 13:24:26 GMT -5
California is supporting 10 million illegal aliens. There's no money for luxuries like educating children and providing alternatives for those who need them... From where did you get the 10 million number? Last I read, there are about 3 to 5 illegal aliens here. Just wondering if there is new data out there on this issue.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jul 13, 2011 13:25:54 GMT -5
California is supporting 10 million illegal aliens. There's no money for luxuries like educating children and providing alternatives for those who need them... Is having a literate society a luxury? It seems to have taken a back seat to the children's self esteem for the past few decades...don't need no fancy book learnin' as long as they have an overdeveloped sense of self worth.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 13:27:13 GMT -5
California is supporting 10 million illegal aliens. There's no money for luxuries like educating children and providing alternatives for those who need them... From where did you get the 10 million number? From his butt.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 13:29:21 GMT -5
Is having a literate society a luxury? It seems to have taken a back seat to the children's self esteem for the past few decades...don't need no fancy book learnin' as long as they have an overdeveloped sense of self worth. Why do you keep implying that I think everything is OK? That I like teacher's unions? That I think a namby pamby feel good curicculum is a good thing? Public schools have their issues, but I don't think all is lost. I also think our schools spend too much time on crap and not on teaching, and that teaching to federally mandated tests stifles creativity.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 13:30:11 GMT -5
From where did you get the 10 million number? From his butt.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 13, 2011 13:32:34 GMT -5
Anyone else here from a small community who is just shaking their heads over some of the suggestions about multiple specialty schools?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 13:33:23 GMT -5
California is supporting 10 million illegal aliens. There's no money for luxuries like educating children and providing alternatives for those who need them... From where did you get the 10 million number? Last I read, there are about 3 to 5 illegal aliens here. Just wondering if there is new data out there on this issue. A quick google search comes up with 2 to 3 million illegals in CA. Granted, it's 2 to 3 million more than there should be, but it's not 10 million........
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 13:34:13 GMT -5
Anyone else here from a small community who is just shaking their heads over some of the suggestions about multiple specialty schools? Yup. We've got too many schools in my area as it is. There is no reason to have 2 schools within 10 miles of each other that have a total enrollment of 400 kids in each school.
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steff
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Post by steff on Jul 13, 2011 13:36:13 GMT -5
Not necessarily true.... thru that "college track" and a public Charter school, my son is taking drafting courses & welding courses at the local tech college this summer & thru his Senior year. He will be certified in both welding and drafting in the end.
His plans are to continue on to college, but there ARE vocational outlets. They actually had to turn away over 100 students applying for the CNA program because they don't have enough funding for all of them. Only 75 were accepted for the CNA classes. Only 3, yes THREE kids are in the drafting course and only 13 in the welding course.
And I'm one of those parents that fought the school tooth & nail for a better chance for my kiddo. Fought to have him tested for gifted, fought to keep the gifted classes when they were being cancelled (we lost that fight). I also fought against religion being taught in the classroom. *I* made sure that my son had every available opportunity while in the public school system. *I* fought for him and his future.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 13:39:40 GMT -5
As many of you know, I am a public high school teacher in So. Cal. I agree 100% that the educational system is broken and needs to be fixed. I do not think we should throw even more money at the problem because that has been done already, and the problems have gotten worse. This is not a one solution fix. There has to be a comprehensive plan to fix the system. The first thing to do is to truly recognize what the actual problems are and we need to leave ideology and politics out of it. We need to stop being "PC" about it and face the problems or else the problems will always be there and will only get worse.
Here are some of the problems that I see in the system:
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 13:56:46 GMT -5
There is corruption in the school boards, districts and schools. This needs to be cleaned up.
There are a lot of ineffective teachers that either need to be replaced or retrained.
The "tenure" system needs to end or change.
Real discipline needs to make a come back.
Parents must become more involved (Not sure how to make this happen)
Standardized testing should not be the only indicator of progress.
Curriculum should not be "one size fits all."
These are just a few of the things that should be fixed/changed in my opinion.
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 13, 2011 13:58:17 GMT -5
There is corruption in the school boards, districts and schools. This needs to be cleaned up. There are a lot of ineffective teachers that either need to be replaced or retrained. The "tenure" system needs to end or change. Real discipline needs to make a come back. Parents must become more involved (Not sure how to make this happen) Standardized testing should not be the only indicator of progress. Curriculum should not be "one size fits all." These are just a few of the things that should be fixed/changed in my opinion. Great list, and since the libs on the board won't ask you like they ask me: HOW do we get there? What's the plan?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 13, 2011 14:02:09 GMT -5
There is corruption in the school boards, districts and schools. This needs to be cleaned up. How has it been done in other governmental entities? Whatever worked for that, do it here.
There are a lot of ineffective teachers that either need to be replaced or retrained. Get rid of the union and tenure.
The "tenure" system needs to end or change. School board votes to get rid of it.
Real discipline needs to make a come back. That involves the parents. I have no idea how you do it. My friends who are teachers tell me that when they try to discipline a kid, the parents usually whine that their sweetie would never do something like that, you're picking on him and you're overreacting and boys will be boys.
Parents must become more involved (Not sure how to make this happen). I don't know either.
Standardized testing should not be the only indicator of progress. Local control. Get the feds out of the curicculum development and tests.
Curriculum should not be "one size fits all." Allow for tracking again.
These are just a few of the things that should be fixed/changed in my opinion
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 14:07:13 GMT -5
There is corruption in the school boards, districts and schools. This needs to be cleaned up. There are a lot of ineffective teachers that either need to be replaced or retrained. The "tenure" system needs to end or change. Real discipline needs to make a come back. Parents must become more involved (Not sure how to make this happen) Standardized testing should not be the only indicator of progress. Curriculum should not be "one size fits all." These are just a few of the things that should be fixed/changed in my opinion. Great list, and since the libs on the board won't ask you like they ask me: HOW do we get there? What's the plan? For starters, School board meetings have certain issues that are handled in "closed sessions." That should NEVER happen. Parents and all tax payers should have access to all aspects of board meetings at all times. I think teachers should be evaluated once every 5 years by a 3rd party, in order to determine tenure. If that that teacher does not qualify, they should be stripped of tenure and be eligible for removal and loss of pension. (Evaluation would be based on a number of things including bi annual evals, parents' input etc.)
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 14:15:41 GMT -5
I also support the idea of getting rid of tenure all together.
As for curriculum, I agree with swamp. I do not think it should be determined by the feds. There should be several curriculum plans based on the various interests and abilities of the students. Parents should be able to have more input on methods of instruction and on what their kids are learning. Differential instruction should be mandatory.
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steff
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Post by steff on Jul 13, 2011 14:20:29 GMT -5
The starting point should be getting more parents involved in their childs education. Start there.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 14:28:52 GMT -5
Progress monitoring should be based more on the various curriculum plans rather than standard instruction/testing. I am not 100% opposed to standard testing, but it should not be the only indicator of progress. Too much emphasis is placed on those tests, and teachers end up teaching to the test, rather than actually teaching the standards.
As for discipline, one of the main problems is that school districts are terrified of being sued by disgruntled parents. This is happening more often nowadays. I think that school districts should be held accountable if a student is harmed or intentionally mistreated. But I think it should not be so easy for just anyone to sue on a frivolous basis. Principals are being told by district admin, to ensure that discipline rates go down, meaning less suspensions, detentions, and expulsions. Basically, unless a student is burning the school down, or causing a possible "liability," then school admin and teachers should just "let it go."
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 14:30:28 GMT -5
The starting point should be getting more parents involved in their childs education. Start there. agree
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 13, 2011 14:35:27 GMT -5
I don't see the teachers as the major problem in the public schools. True, there are some bad ones, but it seems to me all the rest (the majority) are so constrained by corrupt, incompetent administration, useless standards and failed "diversity", "self-esteem" and "sensitivity" programs that they literally cannot do their jobs (teaching reading, writing, history, science and math). I think most of these good teachers (and their students) would flourish in an environment where they have less intrusive oversight by incompetent government agencies, less meddling and manipulation by corrupt unions and more authority to discipline and transfer/expel troublemakers.
Too bad that will never happen as long as the liberals run the schools...
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 13, 2011 14:38:43 GMT -5
As for parents, this is the most difficult problem to deal with. We cannot force parents to become involved or to even care about their kids' education. Unfortunately, there are a lot of parents who are not involved enough. In some cases, it is because they work a lot of hours and it is difficult for them to be involved. In other cases, the parents do not value education and see schools as a babysitter rather than a place of learning. In the case of most of my students, the parents do not speak English and have little to no education themselves. They are unable to help their kids with school work even if they want to. Many of my students' parents see their kids' education as being the sole responsibility of the schools and the teachers.
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