Abolish Public Schools?

[ed1066]

Jul 13, 2011 11:46:17 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jul 13, 2011 11:45:02 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

Yes, but that isn't happening right now. If a system is failing, you don't make it worse by throwing good money after bad. You scrap it and start fresh with something that has a chance to work...isn't this obvious?

so where's the plan for something fresh? you keep forgetting to include that....

I'm not forgetting, I simply don't care. I'm not Obama's Secretary of Education (thank God). If I were, I would need to have a plan. As I indicated, my children are homeschooled and this issue does not affect me or my family. If my children were in the public education system, I would be very distressed that we are ranked 25th out of 34 in math, and I would be demanding action. I guess not enough people really care about the (mis)education their kids are getting in a failed system...either that or they truly believe it is more important for their kids to learn about the evils of "white privilege" than learning math, science, reading and writing...

[jkapp]

At the very least, they are there for all kids to take advantage of them.Some kids apply themselves and excel, others don't choose to.

Yeah and we pay out the ass either way...awesome!

What they are proposing could lead to only those that can afford it gets access to school.

Or maybe lead to those that actually value education to receive it? Thereby making their education that much better? I'm not sure how lumping those students that want to excel in with those that don't is somehow better for everyone??

[chiver78]

Jul 13, 2011 12:02:35 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

Jul 13, 2011 11:46:17 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

so where's the plan for something fresh? you keep forgetting to include that....

I'm not forgetting, I simply don't care. I'm not Obama's Secretary of Education (thank God). If I were, I would need to have a plan. As I indicated, my children are homeschooled and this issue does not affect me or my family. If my children were in the public education system, I would be very distressed that we are ranked 25th out of 34 in math, and I would be demanding action. I guess not enough people really care about the (mis)education their kids are getting in a failed system...either that or they truly believe it is more important for their kids to learn about the evils of "white privilege" than learning math, science, reading and writing...

so because it doesn't affect YOU, it's not important.

that is what is wrong with this country. too many people don't give a shit about what's good for the nation as a whole. good luck to you, sir, I hope you never assistance. if so, I hope you have the balls to turn it down. you know, since it's not important to the nation as a whole.

[swamp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:02:35 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

Jul 13, 2011 11:46:17 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

so where's the plan for something fresh? you keep forgetting to include that....

I'm not forgetting, I simply don't care. I'm not Obama's Secretary of Education (thank God). If I were, I would need to have a plan. As I indicated, my children are homeschooled and this issue does not affect me or my family. If my children were in the public education system, I would be very distressed that we are ranked 25th out of 34 in math, and I would be demanding action. I guess not enough people really care about the (mis)education their kids are getting in a failed system...either that or they truly believe it is more important for their kids to learn about the evils of "white privilege" than learning math, science, reading and writing...

I got mine, that's all that matters. Nice.

And I'm not sure things are as bad as you think they are. There are always examples of an abysmal public school, but some actually do OK. Do you realize that in the rankings, the countries that rank higher than us have a tracking system so that the low performers are put in a trade track after elementary school, so they aren't tested? The US provides the same education to all, so the low performers are included in these scores. Of course it's going to show we're not as proficient because there are a group of low performers bringing the average down. If you compared apples to apples, we'd probably be doing pretty well.

[swamp]

[/quote] Or maybe lead to those that actually value education to receive it? Thereby making their education that much better? I'm not sure how lumping those students that want to excel in with those that don't is somehow better for everyone?? [/quote]

I don't think any 12 year old values their education. The 41 year old me really values what the public schools I attended did for me. The 12 year old, not so much.

[swamp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:06:04 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:02:35 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

I'm not forgetting, I simply don't care. I'm not Obama's Secretary of Education (thank God). If I were, I would need to have a plan. As I indicated, my children are homeschooled and this issue does not affect me or my family. If my children were in the public education system, I would be very distressed that we are ranked 25th out of 34 in math, and I would be demanding action. I guess not enough people really care about the (mis)education their kids are getting in a failed system...either that or they truly believe it is more important for their kids to learn about the evils of "white privilege" than learning math, science, reading and writing...

so because it doesn't affect YOU, it's not important.

that is what is wrong with this country. too many people don't give a shit about what's good for the nation as a whole. good luck to you, sir, I hope you never assistance. if so, I hope you have the balls to turn it down. you know, since it's not important to the nation as a whole.

[ugonow]

Thereby making their education that much better? I'm not sure how lumping those students that want to excel in with those that don't is somehow better for everyone??

IMO, you have to give all kids access to an education.But some kids might find out they might be better off leaning more towards trades or vocational training....I think before we blame teachers, though we should look at ourselves as parents and realize we have responsibilities in this department also.

[jkapp]

Jul 13, 2011 11:22:42 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

again, it makes more sense to just get rid of it? I'm with mkitty on the conservative route to fixing things. seriously. y'all just bitch about it and slash funding. rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

if you think it sucks so bad, give us a solution.

There have been several solutions presented, one such being vouchers, and liberals want nothing to do with them. They reject them outright with not even a chance to succeed (even though such voucher programs have shown to be successful).

For liberals it's all about protecting the union teachers...the kids be damned.

[swamp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:10:45 GMT -5 ugonow said:

Thereby making their education that much better? I'm not sure how lumping those students that want to excel in with those that don't is somehow better for everyone??

IMO, you have to give all kids access to an education.But some kids might find out they might be better off leaning more towards trades or vocational training....I think before we blame teachers, though we should look at ourselves as parents and realize we have responsibilities in this department also.

I'll give you a real life example of how lumping a kid who doesn't want to excel in with the rest is good for him.

I went to school with "Joe" from elementary school to graduation. His family was poor, didn't value education, and he just coasted through school. In 11th grade, he met a girl from the neighboring school district who was on the honor roll and valued education. He went from barely passing to honor roll. He got a scholarship to a private college, the same college she went to, and then he went to dental school while she attended medical school. They've moved back home and he now speaks at school about how the unmotivated poor kid can succeed.

[ed1066]

Jul 13, 2011 12:06:04 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:02:35 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

I'm not forgetting, I simply don't care. I'm not Obama's Secretary of Education (thank God). If I were, I would need to have a plan. As I indicated, my children are homeschooled and this issue does not affect me or my family. If my children were in the public education system, I would be very distressed that we are ranked 25th out of 34 in math, and I would be demanding action. I guess not enough people really care about the (mis)education their kids are getting in a failed system...either that or they truly believe it is more important for their kids to learn about the evils of "white privilege" than learning math, science, reading and writing...

so because it doesn't affect YOU, it's not important.

It's not important to ME, no. What is worrisome is that it doesn't seem to be important to the people it DOES affect...so your statement is correct, that is what is wrong, the people who DO have a stake in this don't care about it.

[swamp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:12:53 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 13, 2011 11:22:42 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

again, it makes more sense to just get rid of it? I'm with mkitty on the conservative route to fixing things. seriously. y'all just bitch about it and slash funding. rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

if you think it sucks so bad, give us a solution.

There have been several solutions presented, one such being vouchers, and liberals want nothing to do with them. They reject them outright with not even a chance to succeed (even though such voucher programs have shown to be successful).

For liberals it's all about protecting the union teachers...the kids be damned.

Thank you for at least making a suggestion.

[jkapp]

Jul 13, 2011 11:42:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 13, 2011 11:32:56 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

Definitely not...

Then how do we provide an education for kids whose parents cannot homeschool them? Isn't it in our country's best interest to have a basic education provided to our citizens?

And when the schools are not doing so? What is your plan to fix it, besides just throw more money at it and let it continue the downward spiral?

[jkapp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:06:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:02:35 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

I'm not forgetting, I simply don't care. I'm not Obama's Secretary of Education (thank God). If I were, I would need to have a plan. As I indicated, my children are homeschooled and this issue does not affect me or my family. If my children were in the public education system, I would be very distressed that we are ranked 25th out of 34 in math, and I would be demanding action. I guess not enough people really care about the (mis)education their kids are getting in a failed system...either that or they truly believe it is more important for their kids to learn about the evils of "white privilege" than learning math, science, reading and writing...

I got mine, that's all that matters. Nice.

Yeah, almost as nice as "I've got mine, now I want yours too."

[swamp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:16:16 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 13, 2011 11:42:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

Then how do we provide an education for kids whose parents cannot homeschool them? Isn't it in our country's best interest to have a basic education provided to our citizens?

And when the schools are not doing so? What is your plan to fix it, besides just throw more money at it and let it continue the downward spiral?

I really don't know. It's a complicated problem. Schools can't fix in 6 hours what parents do to their kids over a lifetime.

Vouchers might work. I dunno.

Less testing since it seems like schools just teach to the test now.

More local control over curicculum?

[swamp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:18:45 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:06:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

I got mine, that's all that matters. Nice.

Yeah, almost as nice as "I've got mine, now I want yours too."

I don't want yours or anyone else's. I want schools to provide a decent education for less than it costs now.

Oh, and the teacher's union sucks.

[jkapp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:08:02 GMT -5 swamp said:

Or maybe lead to those that actually value education to receive it? Thereby making their education that much better? I'm not sure how lumping those students that want to excel in with those that don't is somehow better for everyone?? [/quote]

I don't think any 12 year old values their education. The 41 year old me really values what the public schools I attended did for me. The 12 year old, not so much. [/quote]

So then no 12 year-olds are excelling? I thought your argument was that some students excel despite the abysmal failures of our schools...

So which is it?

[ed1066]

Jul 13, 2011 12:19:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:18:45 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Yeah, almost as nice as "I've got mine, now I want yours too."

I don't want yours or anyone else's. I want schools to provide a decent education for less than it costs now.

Oh, and the teacher's union sucks.

Well, that isn't going to happen with the current system, so if it's important to you, you should do something about it...

[chiver78]

Jul 13, 2011 12:19:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

Oh, and the teacher's union sucks.

I never said I liked teacher's unions, jkapp. but I recognize that you can't just wholesale cut public education without another system in place.

[chiver78]

Jul 13, 2011 12:20:54 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:08:02 GMT -5 swamp said:

Or maybe lead to those that actually value education to receive it? Thereby making their education that much better? I'm not sure how lumping those students that want to excel in with those that don't is somehow better for everyone??

I don't think any 12 year old values their education. The 41 year old me really values what the public schools I attended did for me. The 12 year old, not so much. [/quote]

So then no 12 year-olds are excelling? I thought your argument was that some students excel despite the abysmal failures of our schools...

So which is it?[/quote]

excelling and valuing the education at the time are two completely different things.

[olderburgher]

Wacky just wacky. Abandon something which isn't perfect and replace it with something we know is defective before we use it. All those who go an education in public schools paid for by taxes on all citizens and now want to abandon public schools and make parents pay for a private school because the public school aren't perfect instead of fixing them please march to the back of the bus and get off!

[jkapp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:14:25 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:10:45 GMT -5 ugonow said:

IMO, you have to give all kids access to an education.But some kids might find out they might be better off leaning more towards trades or vocational training....I think before we blame teachers, though we should look at ourselves as parents and realize we have responsibilities in this department also.

I'll give you a real life example of how lumping a kid who doesn't want to excel in with the rest is good for him.

I went to school with "Joe" from elementary school to graduation. His family was poor, didn't value education, and he just coasted through school. In 11th grade, he met a girl from the neighboring school district who was on the honor roll and valued education. He went from barely passing to honor roll. He got a scholarship to a private college, the same college she went to, and then he went to dental school while she attended medical school. They've moved back home and he now speaks at school about how the unmotivated poor kid can succeed.

And my nephew goes to a school where the unmotivated kids are a complete disruption and his education is crap, even with his parents help. Everyone in his class (not some - ALL) are below reading level for their age. The parents have complained about the disruptive kids, but they can't do anything about it because as you and the other liberals argue: EVERY child deserves an education.

So those disruptive kids are still there and those parents with the means are paying extra for Charter schools for their kids...so even with a public education system only those parents with the means are getting a good education for their children.

[jkapp]

Jul 13, 2011 12:25:35 GMT -5 olderburgher said:

Wacky just wacky. Abandon something which isn't perfect and replace it with something we know is defective before we use it. All those who go an education in public schools paid for by taxes on all citizens and now want to abandon public schools and make parents pay for a private school because the public school aren't perfect instead of fixing them please march to the back of the bus and get off!

LOL! My exact argument against Obamacare, yet liberals went ahead and forced it through...but that's for another discussion

[ed1066]

So those disruptive kids are still there and those parents with the means are paying extra for Charter schools for their kids...so even with a public education system only those parents with the means are getting a good education for their children.

Good point, and it's always going to be that way with the current system. Why is it that the public schools spend more per student than most private schools and they have still gone to rack and ruin? Answer: because the current system is fatally flawed. It makes bad assumptions (i.e., that ALL kids can be educated the same way), it is run by corrupt, redundant and useless bureaucracies, and it places a higher priority on satisfying the needs of its unionized teachers and administrators than on the education of the children. It's never going to work, and for some reason a lot of people (mostly liberals) can't understand that...too bad.

[chiver78]

Jul 13, 2011 12:34:45 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

So those disruptive kids are still there and those parents with the means are paying extra for Charter schools for their kids...so even with a public education system only those parents with the means are getting a good education for their children.

Good point, and it's always going to be that way with the current system. Why is it that the public schools spend more per student than most private schools and they have still gone to rack and ruin? Answer: because the current system is fatally flawed. It makes bad assumptions (i.e., that ALL kids can be educated the same way), it is run by corrupt, redundant and useless bureaucracies, and it places a higher priority on satisfying the needs of its unionized teachers and administrators than on the education of the children. It's never going to work, and for some reason a lot of people (mostly liberals) can't understand that...too bad.

so what do you both propose to do with these sort of kids, differently from how they are handled now? do you suggest that they be put out of education entirely? that's not good either.

[handyman2]

Doing away with public schools is as dumb an idea as I have ever heard. I will use myself as an example. I was not fond of school, would have been just as happy playing with my dog or fishing. In short I did not apply myself like I realized later. But later in life I realized I had learned a lot more than I thought, thank goodness.
I went to schools that were basic and not highly financed but the teachers were dedicated. had my parents had to pay it would have been an extreme struggle for them. Raised in Appalachia there were many parents in this situation.
Not bragging but my basic education and teachers who pushed me I can say I am doing well.
I would like to point out that from foreign students I have talked to and there are from a variety of countries and my wife is teaching many of them English the picture painted is not balanced. We try to educate all students, many countries do not. Just take India and China for example. Most children who go to school in India are from the better off families. Those in the vast getto's of India recieve little or no eductaion at all, the same with China. In short those getting a good education in other countries are the cream of the crop. The rest are left to their own devices. Yet we are trying to measure our system against that. No wonder the numbers are skewed.
The US is still the most productive in new ideas and concepts. Much of the other countries just copy us at a lower price with cheap uneducated labor.

[billisonboard]

Jul 13, 2011 11:43:13 GMT -5 busymom said:

Even a lot of middle class parents don't teach their kids personal responsibility.


If we eliminated public schools, I believe the crime rate would increase by leaps & bounds! (What else are a bunch of kids going to do when no adult is at home, ... )

Gee, I can't think of anything else that teenagers might be doing.

[ed1066]

Jul 13, 2011 12:39:54 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:34:45 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

Good point, and it's always going to be that way with the current system. Why is it that the public schools spend more per student than most private schools and they have still gone to rack and ruin? Answer: because the current system is fatally flawed. It makes bad assumptions (i.e., that ALL kids can be educated the same way), it is run by corrupt, redundant and useless bureaucracies, and it places a higher priority on satisfying the needs of its unionized teachers and administrators than on the education of the children. It's never going to work, and for some reason a lot of people (mostly liberals) can't understand that...too bad.

so what do you both propose to do with these sort of kids, differently from how they are handled now? do you suggest that they be put out of education entirely? that's not good either.

Vocational training. It's ridiculous to assume that every kid should go to college and be a white collar professional. We need service, manufacturing, farming and industrial workers so we don't have to use illegal immigrants to fill those roles. There should be no shame or stigma attached to doing these jobs. They make the country run.

[chiver78]

Jul 13, 2011 12:47:45 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:39:54 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

so what do you both propose to do with these sort of kids, differently from how they are handled now? do you suggest that they be put out of education entirely? that's not good either.

Vocational training. It's ridiculous to assume that every kid should go to college and be a white collar professional. We need service, manufacturing, farming and industrial workers so we don't have to use illegal immigrants to fill those roles. There should be no shame or stigma attached to doing these jobs. They make the country run.

vocational training is still education.

[handyman2]

I agree ED.

[ed1066]

Jul 13, 2011 12:51:34 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jul 13, 2011 12:47:45 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

Vocational training. It's ridiculous to assume that every kid should go to college and be a white collar professional. We need service, manufacturing, farming and industrial workers so we don't have to use illegal immigrants to fill those roles. There should be no shame or stigma attached to doing these jobs. They make the country run.

vocational training is still education.

I realize that, but it is not offered in our current public education system. They are putting kids on a "college track" who should not be there...