patchwork150
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 19:01:28 GMT -5
Posts: 240
|
Post by patchwork150 on Jun 27, 2011 13:22:01 GMT -5
Background:
My 'SIL (BIL's wife)', her 2 yr. old daugher, and her husband (BIL) live in the lower apartment of the house I live in. DH, DH's cousin, and I live in the upper level. We see each other on the daily, eat dinner together a lot, etc. We take care of our neice often, etc.
On top of that, we have a weird intermingled financial situation. SIL is on my phone bill and TV bill. She is supposed to pay me every month, which she mostly does. She is almost always late, but I can afford it and she knows it. She also asks me to pay other bills for her, but she pays me with the cash on the spot when I pay them with my card most of the time. We grociery shop together, etc etc, and she is always forever borrowing $. I think about $20 a month gets by me (she borrows, says she will pay me, and she forgets). I don't bager her for money- we have a pretty good relationship despite the $. We talk alot lol.
I've tried to give her advice to help her financial situation, but she won't hear it. Well, she nods her head and agrees but doesn't act on it. She is always paying everything late, gets shutoff notices from electricty company, pays a ton of late fees, etc. She asks for help, but doesn't apply it! I got her into returning bottles, and I go with her. She got $52 last time we went (we FILLED that truck up lol). I always tell her she should put that in her savings account, but she always has plans for it (McDonalds, etc). She has a problem with food- she will buy an ice cream for $3 but will NOT pay a bill she is $3 short for.
She makes about $280/week. Her husband makes about $630/week. They have no debt (thank god, they can't get credit or loans). She gets WIC and medicade (she claims to be a single mom since they are not legally married, just religious), and her kid's daycare is all expenses paid for $25 a week. I don't understand how they DON'T have money. Their rent is $400 a month!
But my real problem is that she started going to a food pantry because it's free and she can pick anything she wants off the shelf. She wants me to take her there. I WILL NOT. So far I have only come up with excuses. I have not told her about how I feel. I hate that she doesn't use these programs to better her situation. I hate that she is using these programs when others more needy than her need it. She spends probably $800+ a month on food, and throws out a ton of stuff. We live in a VERY LCOL area.
I KNOW all her finances- sometimes she pays me in checks! I do everything with her, she talks to me about how worried she is that if her DH left her she has NOTHING, no savings, etc.
What can I do? Should I tell her how I feel? Keep doing what I am doing? I will not be party to her using the system for all it's worth. Like I said, we get along well otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by pig on Jun 27, 2011 13:25:46 GMT -5
I understand how you feel. For what it's worth I would extricate myself from her financially and get away from her. You don't owe her any explanation just tell her you will not take her.
|
|
patchwork150
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 19:01:28 GMT -5
Posts: 240
|
Post by patchwork150 on Jun 27, 2011 13:30:05 GMT -5
No vices for either of them luckilly. Her vice is chinese food and mcdonalds, if that counts.
|
|
patchwork150
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 19:01:28 GMT -5
Posts: 240
|
Post by patchwork150 on Jun 27, 2011 13:35:11 GMT -5
You need to enact some degrees of separation. I think you should move out if possible and draw some concrete boundaries. But, if not, her life is her life and yours is yours. If she wants to glom the system, that is her business. She is a grown up so it doesn't really matter how your feel. But, you dont' have to be party to subsidizing her life either. Just tell her you are not going to the food bank. And, stop giving her money unless it really doesn't bother you. Sometimes I think the same things, but she can't get stuff on her own anymore. Verizon and dish network will NOT do a contract with her! I added her to my bill when she was pregnant with my neice- she had no phone and no money. She never has $. She DOES pay up, as long as we write down what she owes OR it's the same monthly bill. It's hard because we are so involved with my niece. I could never not help, and see her suffer. She gets me to pay her bills when *If I don't pay it TODAY they will shut off my electricity- see, here's the notice*. But she has either a check or cash in hand normally- she needs me to pay it with my card, since she doesn't have one. Her debit card was cancelled for low/negative funds. She's terrible with $. And her husband is too- he doesn't care if the bills get paid, becuase they are 'her problem'. He pays certain things, and the leftover is HIS to do what he wants with it. It's really a sad situation.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,865
|
Post by zibazinski on Jun 27, 2011 13:36:20 GMT -5
You have got to extricate yourself from this issue regardless of the child. Not healthy and will not end well.
|
|
patchwork150
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 19:01:28 GMT -5
Posts: 240
|
Post by patchwork150 on Jun 27, 2011 13:39:35 GMT -5
You have got to extricate yourself from this issue regardless of the child. Not healthy and will not end well.[/quote] You're probably right. It's hard though, they are family. The type of culture/family we have on DH's side is that you do everything to help each other out. And I can't say they have never helped us out. But the last 2 years has been more 80% us 20% them. ETA: How do you go about breaking up financially? How can I tell her 'by the way, I'm taking you off the phone bill -you're on your own. Oh, and I cancelled your dish- get your own.' She's going to wonder why, and the good relationship between all of us will end in smoke. No more dinners, watching TV together, playing with my niece. and DH will probably not be happy with me for causing all the problems/rocking the boat.
|
|
bobosensei
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:32:49 GMT -5
Posts: 1,561
|
Post by bobosensei on Jun 27, 2011 13:45:16 GMT -5
The getting wic and medicade due to claiming to be single ticks me off more than getting food at the food pantry.
I wouldn't continue to live so close to them and to be comingled on bills or using your card to pay things they give you cash for. That would just get on my nerves. They are not going to change their ways based on what you say to them. They will change when they have to change- and no sooner.
|
|
strider
Familiar Member
Joined: Mar 29, 2011 12:41:49 GMT -5
Posts: 682
|
Post by strider on Jun 27, 2011 13:51:47 GMT -5
The getting wic and medicade due to claiming to be single ticks me off more than getting food at the food pantry. I wouldn't continue to live so close to them and to be comingled on bills or using your card to pay things they give you cash for. That would just get on my nerves. They are not going to change their ways based on what you say to them. They will change when they have to change- and no sooner. That ticks me off more than anything else. No wonder people want WIC gone. It's abused like crazy. The purpose is good but it's so easy to use the loopholes. The US really needs to stop incentivizing having children.
|
|
CarolinaKat
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 16:10:37 GMT -5
Posts: 6,364
|
Post by CarolinaKat on Jun 27, 2011 13:51:53 GMT -5
IMO, you'd have to move out into a place without them in order to break-up with them financially without a horrendous mess of hurt feelings and resentment.
ETA: Do you live in a commonlaw marrige state? IF you do, after a certian number of years she and her hubby WILL be legally married, since they are presenting themselves as such.
|
|
daisylu
Junior Associate
Enter your message here...
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 6:04:42 GMT -5
Posts: 6,815
|
Post by daisylu on Jun 27, 2011 13:52:24 GMT -5
You need to enact some degrees of separation. I think you should move out if possible and draw some concrete boundaries. But, if not, her life is her life and yours is yours. If she wants to glom the system, that is her business. She is a grown up so it doesn't really matter how your feel. But, you dont' have to be party to subsidizing her life either. Just tell her you are not going to the food bank. And, stop giving her money unless it really doesn't bother you. Sometimes I think the same things, but she can't get stuff on her own anymore. Verizon and dish network will NOT do a contract with her! I added her to my bill when she was pregnant with my neice- she had no phone and no money. She never has $. She DOES pay up, as long as we write down what she owes OR it's the same monthly bill. It's hard because we are so involved with my niece. I could never not help, and see her suffer. She gets me to pay her bills when *If I don't pay it TODAY they will shut off my electricity- see, here's the notice*. But she has either a check or cash in hand normally- she needs me to pay it with my card, since she doesn't have one. Her debit card was cancelled for low/negative funds. She's terrible with $. And her husband is too- he doesn't care if the bills get paid, becuase they are 'her problem'. He pays certain things, and the leftover is HIS to do what he wants with it. It's really a sad situation. Next holiday gift her with a refillable Visa card, and say something like "Now you won't have to track me down when you are in a time crunch".
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 29, 2024 10:09:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 13:54:37 GMT -5
Sometimes I think the same things, but she can't get stuff on her own anymore. Verizon and dish network will NOT do a contract with her! I added her to my bill when she was pregnant with my neice- she had no phone and no money. She never has $. She DOES pay up, as long as we write down what she owes OR it's the same monthly bill. It's hard because we are so involved with my niece. I could never not help, and see her suffer. I agree with the others that you need to try and extricate yourself from this situation. Sadly, it will probably require moving. You can offer to help her with her budget, and you still have your niece over and be a part of her life. But Chinese food is a vice when you are using money that should go towards your electric bill. And going without cable does not constitute suffering. Having the power shut off may be suffering, but then perhaps your niece can come stay at "Camp Aunt Patchwork" while SIL gets her @#$% together. That doesn't mean you are a free and bottomless supply of daycare. That doesn't mean you pay the electric bill for SIL. And that doesn't mean you drive her to the food pantry or subsidize her cable. Leave SIL to sit in the dark until she gets her act together. It will be hard and she will probably try to make you feel like the bad guy, but you are only enabling her if you don't make her stand on her own two feet.
|
|
patchwork150
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 19:01:28 GMT -5
Posts: 240
|
Post by patchwork150 on Jun 27, 2011 13:58:58 GMT -5
Next holiday gift her with a refillable Visa card, and say something like "Now you won't have to track me down when you are in a time crunch". I love this idea! Consider it done, I have a christmas fund and $ for her gift was already set aside. : ) That would be a load off my plate!
|
|
patchwork150
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 19:01:28 GMT -5
Posts: 240
|
Post by patchwork150 on Jun 27, 2011 14:06:16 GMT -5
But Chinese food is a vice when you are using money that should go towards your electric bill. And going without cable does not constitute suffering. Having the power shut off may be suffering, but then perhaps your niece can come stay at "Camp Aunt Patchwork" while SIL gets her @#$% together. That doesn't mean you are a free and bottomless supply of daycare. That doesn't mean you pay the electric bill for SIL. And that doesn't mean you drive her to the food pantry or subsidize her cable. Leave SIL to sit in the dark until she gets her act together. It will be hard and she will probably try to make you feel like the bad guy, but you are only enabling her if you don't make her stand on her own two feet. I contemplate this from time to time, but I'm a softie. The camp aunt patchwork made me lol big time though. IMO, you'd have to move out into a place without them in order to break-up with them financially without a horrendous mess of hurt feelings and resentment. ETA: Do you live in a commonlaw marrige state? IF you do, after a certian number of years she and her hubby WILL be legally married, since they are presenting themselves as such. Yeah, I think it would take something like that to separate well... as for commonlaw, I don't know. I live in NY, so I could look it up...
|
|
patchwork150
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 19:01:28 GMT -5
Posts: 240
|
Post by patchwork150 on Jun 27, 2011 14:09:56 GMT -5
By helping SIL, you are enabling her to be dependent on you. She will not become independent until you stop helping her. Between the two of them, they net 47K per year, and their bills are low. With the perks she receives because she is low income with a child, they should be saving money. Since she is low income, she is probably eligible for free job training or college courses. Earning more money from a better job would be the best way for her to guarantee that she could support herself and her daughter if the couple splits. Also, she would drop off the government dole. They do need a monthly budget because $800 per month for food is high. If she decreased the food budget and cut out unnecessary spending, they could save money. However, you are too closely involved in their lives to give advice, but you could help her research what programs are available for low cost budget help. I am curious about BIL's opinion on saving money. That's what I don't get. They never have $, but make decent $ for our area. BIL has a thing for saving to buy himself whatever he wants- trucks, hunting gear, etc. He'll save even if his wife can't pay the electricity. It gets worse- when neice is sick and SIL can't work, she is still expected to pay the bills. He won't help with what bills are 'hers'. They BOTH send $ to their parents. SIL can't send much. Last time BIL sent $ it was $800.
|
|
CarolinaKat
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 16:10:37 GMT -5
Posts: 6,364
|
Post by CarolinaKat on Jun 27, 2011 15:15:08 GMT -5
Patchwork,
Is moving out a possibility for you? This situation sounds like something you do NOT want to be in the middle of when it falls apart. If he won't pay the electricity for his 'wife' and child it's not going to get any prettier. Also, is BIL niece's dad?
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jun 27, 2011 15:27:57 GMT -5
I agree that there is probably no way to painlessly sever this financial relationship without one (or both) of you moving. Is that in the future for you? I remember a thread on the old board where you mentioned possibly moving out of the country in the next couple of years.
Until then, I'd try to slowly extricate. And yes, if you are willing to take in DN for a few days, LET the power get shut off. LET the water get shut off. You know BIL and SIL are not going to learn anything if you're always there to save the day... but you can still save the day for DN, just not for her careless parents.
|
|
april47
Familiar Member
Joined: Jan 8, 2011 18:44:29 GMT -5
Posts: 512
|
Post by april47 on Jun 27, 2011 16:24:50 GMT -5
Is this BIL your husbands brother? If it is, he needs to have a heart-to-heart talk with him about his responsibilities as a "husband" and father. It would be nice if he could mention about the cheating on the welfare/WIC/reduced daycare too but I'm sure that would really end to the brother's relationship. If they are brothers, does your husband have this same attitude? It's a little odd that your SIL comes to you and expects you to help all the time but your husband is not involved in this conflict.
|
|
cronewitch
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:44:20 GMT -5
Posts: 5,974
|
Post by cronewitch on Jun 27, 2011 16:51:38 GMT -5
(she claims to be a single mom since they are not legally married, just religious),
How does that work? Church marriages are legal unless the Church isn't a real church. I don't know any religions were you don't legally marry but are married for there purposes except gay marriage where marriage is illegal.
|
|
Gardening Grandma
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:39:46 GMT -5
Posts: 17,962
|
Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 27, 2011 17:00:53 GMT -5
They are religious but have no problem lying about tbeir relationship and abusing a system for needy people?
Your help does enable her to continue mismanaging her funds. You really do need to put sone space between yourselves or otherwise you will find yourself loaning her more and more and not being repaid.
And, yes, you should tell her that you aren't comfortable driving her to the food pantry because you feel she shoulsnot be taking food away from folks who might orhetwise go hungry.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 29, 2024 10:09:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 17:27:10 GMT -5
How does that work? Church marriages are legal unless the Church isn't a real church. I don't know any religions were you don't legally marry but are married for their purposes except gay marriage where marriage is illegal. That was what I was wondering. If a member of the clergy performs a wedding ceremony for 2 people legally able to marry and doesn't report it to the state, they can lose their license. (Personally I think that's rotten but it's the law.) The exception might be some "blessing of a union" that doesn't use the official marriage wording. Some churches have those ceremonies for gay couples or for old couples where Granny would lose her widow's pension if she remarried. I agree with the rest- distance yourself from their finances. They're not even working together (she can't pay utilities, he's sending $800 to his parents). You can't fix them. I'd be tempted to report them for fraud, too.
|
|
april47
Familiar Member
Joined: Jan 8, 2011 18:44:29 GMT -5
Posts: 512
|
Post by april47 on Jun 27, 2011 17:32:31 GMT -5
It ticks me off to hear of couples living as a "husband" and wife but they aren't "legally" married so they get all these benefits. Maybe because my single mom daughter struggles so hard to pay daycare and make ends meet. She makes more than OP's SIL but a lot less than they do together. She doesn't qualify for help with daycare, healthcare, or food. Phew, there, I got that off my chest.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jun 27, 2011 17:39:06 GMT -5
"The exception might be some "blessing of a union" that doesn't use the official marriage wording."
What exactly is the "official marriage wording"? I've never heard of that, and I just got married where my wife basically picked out exactly what the minister said. There was no special language involved.
The only thing that makes you "married" here is the marriage certificate.
"How does that work? Church marriages are legal unless the Church isn't a real church. I don't know any religions were you don't legally marry but are married for there purposes except gay marriage where marriage is illegal. "
Ok, and what happens when the clergy reports to the state "I married these 2 people" and they don't fill out a marriage license? Unless your state has common law marriage with that specific definition how do you decide they are married exactly? Marriage is a legal contract, there are a billion things a member of the clergy could say without specifically using the word marriage in a ceremony that looks nearly identical to a religious marriage ceremony.
ETA: Most religions have absolutely zero requirement that when you get "married" that you fill out government documentation saying you are married. Are you suggesting that where you live if you go through a church ceremony that looks like a wedding that the government forces you into marriage where no marriage was agreed upon or entered into? That seems nearly impossible to enforce, and full of opportunity for abuse.
|
|
❤ mollymouser ❤
Senior Associate
Sarcasm is my Superpower
Crazy Cat Lady
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:09:58 GMT -5
Posts: 12,857
Today's Mood: Gen X ... so I'm sarcastic and annoyed
Location: Central California
Favorite Drink: Diet Mountain Dew
|
Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Jun 27, 2011 17:44:49 GMT -5
I heartily recommend the book "Boundaries."
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jun 27, 2011 17:57:19 GMT -5
I second Molly's recommendation. It sounds hokey, but that book changed my life!
ETA - Congratulations, Hoops!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 29, 2024 10:09:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 18:16:25 GMT -5
Ok, I'm taking this simply financially. If you cut her off from Dish . . . on Directv, an additional receiver is $6. You sure she isn't subsidizing your bill by paying more than $6? The program is exactly the same, whether you have one receiver or four. The difference is $6 a receiver. If you cut her off from her cell . . . with my daughter's AT&T plan, an additional line is $10. That is what she charges us, but we don't use many minutes and no texts. How is she impacting your bill? Are you charging her 1/3 or something (you and your DH being 2/3) or are you charging her the impact? I know it doesn't matter to you, but you might actually be coming out ahead.
|
|
startsmart
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 12:45:52 GMT -5
Posts: 4,443
|
Post by startsmart on Jun 27, 2011 18:25:21 GMT -5
You started saying no now just follow through. Don't give her money at the grocery store to buy more junk. Learn to say "when I don't have enough iput back things we don't need." and let her know that if she can't pay utilities and needs help then you'd like her to stop piggybacking your cable. Cable is not necessary, electricity is. Don't drive her to the food bank. If you need to drive her to the bill payment center with her cash.
Sounds terrible but they sound like my new puppy. From day 1 I said no to jumping on the couch. No. No. No. Then over the weekend I caved, he looked so sad and let him up. Now it's back to the no, no, no to retrain. When he wasn't on the couch he would happily lie in the crate. Be consistent. Say no. Not because you're trying to control their lives but because mixing finances like this only upsets you and puts you in a precarious situation having 2 adults and a child depending on your help to survive.
Like my puppy, it's your house and your money so you get to say how and where it goes. Don't apologize for that, it's your right to say no.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 29, 2024 10:09:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 18:33:23 GMT -5
ETA: Most religions have absolutely zero requirement that when you get "married" that you fill out government documentation saying you are married. Are you suggesting that where you live if you go through a church ceremony that looks like a wedding that the government forces you into marriage where no marriage was agreed upon or entered into? That seems nearly impossible to enforce, and full of opportunity for abuse. I'm not a lawyer but it's my understanding that it's civil law (not the law of any religion) that when a religious marriage ceremony is performed, it must be reported to the state as such. My grandfather and his second wife wanted a Catholic church wedding (they were both widowed) but wanted the priest to not report it to the state so she wouldn't lose the pension from her late husband. The priest said he couldn't do that. They put religious beliefs ahead of finances and got married anyway. As far as what makes it a "marriage" and thus requiring reporting to the state- I don't know. I agree that there's wide latitude in what words you can use for an official ceremony but I would guess that one that didn't qualify would avoid words that pronounce them husband and wife at the end, and that doesn't actually use the word "marriage" in it. That's why I'm puzzled in the OP's case. If they're "married" enouigh that it satisfies their religious scruples, I'm very surprised they can get away with claiming they're not married in the eyes of the state.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jun 27, 2011 18:46:05 GMT -5
Athena, I think some churches will sanctify a marriage if there is some compelling financial reason for the couple to stay unmarried. I don't agree with it, but a church in my hometown has some sort of ceremony for this purpose. A couple who are friends with my grandpa did this. They are both widowed and each get a hefty SS spousal benefit (and I think one has a pension) - so they didn't want to get married and lose all that. But they wanted to live together and still be able to show their faces at church every week. So they got "united in Christ" but are legally single.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jun 27, 2011 19:02:01 GMT -5
"A couple who are friends with my grandpa did this. They are both widowed and each get a hefty SS spousal benefit (and I think one has a pension) - so they didn't want to get married and lose all that. But they wanted to live together and still be able to show their faces at church every week. So they got "united in Christ" but are legally single. "
As against "working the system" that I am, I don't see any problem at all with being "joined" for religious reasons while staying legally single. There are 2 ways to be married, reliously, and legally. Many times they are the same. But for all of the people who are legally married but don't follow a religion, I don't see any reason that doing the opposite is an issue. It's not much different than "bigamists" who are legally not married but whose religion allows them to "partner" with someone. The government should keep it's nose out of religion and vice versa.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 29, 2024 10:09:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 19:07:37 GMT -5
There are 2 ways to be married, religiously, and legally. Many times they are the same. But for all of the people who are legally married but don't follow a religion, I don't see any reason that doing the opposite is an issue. <snip>The government should keep its nose out of religion and vice versa. My understanding is that in the US, the second situation you cite is impossible. DH and I would love to be married in the eyes of our church but not the state. We've even considered a civil divorce to accomplish it, having been married in an honest-to-goodness church ceremony. As it is, 85% of his SS is taxed and I can't collect on my late Ex's SS (he died last year, we were married for 3 years) because we're married. And I absolutely agree with your last sentence!
|
|