Should I tell it like it is?

[hoops902]

"If they're "married" enouigh that it satisfies their religious scruples, I'm very surprised they can get away with claiming they're not married in the eyes of the state."

Are you really surprised? Marriage is a legal contract, contracts are defined by law. In most states to be "married" you either have to have filed the appropriate paperwork, or fall into the state's definition of common law marriage. If your state either doesn't have common law marriage or you don't fall into the definition of what they consider it to be...what do you think the state is going to do? Do you really want the state saying "well legally you don't fit into this law, but we're just going to force you to anyways"? I mean it sounds good when you hear one isolated incident, but I don't think many of us want the government in our lives like that do we?

Look at it from this POV. If my brother dies and I act as a "father figure" to my nephews...do you think the state should say "well you didn't legally adopt the child, but since you ACT like a father, you're now responsible to pay the mother child support"? I don't think any of us really want the state creating legal relationships where none were agreed to by the parties, nor do they actually fit into the state's laws.

[hoops902]

Jun 27, 2011 19:07:37 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jun 27, 2011 19:02:01 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

There are 2 ways to be married, reliously, and legally. Many times they are the same. But for all of the people who are legally married but don't follow a religion, I don't see any reason that doing the opposite is an issue. <snip>The government should keep its nose out of religion and vice versa.

My understanding is that in the US, the second situation you cite is impossible. DH and I would love to be married in the eyes of our church but not the state. We've even considered a civil divorce to accomplaish it, having been married in an honest-to-goodness church ceremony. As it is, 85% of his SS is taxed and I can't collect on my late Ex's SS (he died last year, we were married for 3 years) because we're married.

And I absolutely agree with your last sentence!

Why do you think it's impossible? The entire issue cited was "that person will lose their license to marry people if they don't report it". There's absolutely no reason you couldn't have a religion where the leader of that religion had no power to "marry" people legally but could absolutely join them together within the religion. I could start my own religion tomorrow, join anyone I wanted "spiritually" within that religion, and have absolutely no consequences legally speaking. The entire issue is that most mainstream religious practictioners have bound themselves voluntarily to the government (with good reason in most cases). The issue isn't that you can't do it, it's that most religious leaders have voluntarily agreed not to do it.

[midjd]

The church cited in my RL example is a United Church of Christ... but I really have no idea if that's a denomination-wide practice or that specific congregation. I am sure it is not sanctioned by most denominations.

[phil5185]

I heartily recommend the book "Boundaries."

Is that the miniature book that's only 3 inches tall?

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

Jun 27, 2011 19:23:49 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

I heartily recommend the book "Boundaries."

Is that the miniature book that's only 3 inches tall?

No.

[Deleted]

Jun 27, 2011 19:13:26 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

I could start my own religion tomorrow, join anyone I wanted "spiritually" within that religion, and have absolutely no consequences legally speaking. The entire issue is that most mainstream religious practictioners have bound themselves voluntarily to the government (with good reason in most cases). The issue isn't that you can't do it, it's that most religious leaders have voluntarily agreed not to do it.

OK, I'm outta my league here. You may be right- we were married in a mainstream church and having a traditional wedding ceremony and not reporting it to the state was not an option. (DH did, however, tell the priest that if he HAD to say, "by the power vested in me by the state of NJ", that he lower his voice and face the wall! Fortunately, those words are optional.)

Maybe midwesternjd knows.

[TheOtherMe]

She can get a pay as you go cell phone. They don't require a credit card or a credit check. Gets her off your plan.

As for Dish, it might be time to stop it for her altogether and get her off your account.

[Miss Tequila]

Oh hell no would I put up wtih that...and I hate welfare fraud so much I would turn her sorry ass in....family or not, I will not tolerate it.

[patchwork150]

lol at the marraige debate, my bad! I should have used the word 'cultural' rather than religious. For them, moving in with a guy is the same thing as marriage. They refer to each other as husband and wife, so does everyone around them. It's soemthing shameful to have had previous relationships for a woman, or be a single mom in that culture. re-'marrying' is few and far between. For the church (catholic) they are living in sin until they go through all the steps to get married (baptism, 1st communion, confirmation, marriage talks, etc). Sorry for confusing all of you, but it was an interesting debate!

I think I may have thrown SIL too far under the bus here. There is a serious problem in her marriage, which is why I think she does what she does. She won't not spend on things for herself (mcdonalds) or her daughter, but I think it is out of resentment for her husband not helping her. She throws a ton of food away, because her husband is so picky. He won't eat leftovers. the same meal last week is unaccpetable this week. She cooks DAILY and sometimes 2x a day for this man. He won't lift a finger around the house. He has never changed a diaper or fed his daughter, and she is going to be 3 soon.

And NO, MY DH is not like his brother. They have similarities in that they are both stubborn as mules, but I think most men are ;D I promise you, I would never have married a man like BIL.

BIL is a good brother, a great loving son, and a loving dad. but he won't take the responsiblilities of being a real father, husband, etc. And SIL is too afraid to speak up- she seems to think that if she protests too much in an argument or doesn't do what he wants, she will get hurt physically. I know he doesn't beat her up every day, but he has slapped her before and scared her once or twice. So she's afraid of him. She also doesn't want to leave him on the cultural aspect. And lastly, he has told her repeatedly that if they separate she will not be allowed to have her daughter- which is complete BS, but that scares her too.

It's a quagmire.

I wish she would take the money she saves with these programs and put it in a savings account. She has nothing, and if this relationship ends (which it may, if they don't get marriage counseling at the least) she really does have nothing. They are not married, and everything is in her husband's name except the bills.

[patchwork150]

Jun 27, 2011 21:53:53 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Oh hell no would I put up wtih that...and I hate welfare fraud so much I would turn her sorry ass in....family or not, I will not tolerate it.

well, not welfare or EBS, but I get the point. It frustrates me too. They could afford to not use any helping programs, if they could get their financial acts together.

[patchwork150]

As for the bills- the dish is completely separate from mine, different account, etc- different programming too. It's a different physical apartment, separate bill.

The phone is what pisses me off the most. She pays $115 a month- she has EVERY option on her new driod. Unlimited data $30 a month, unlimited calls outisde the US, unlimited texting, etc. I get maybe $5-$10 out of the deal, if she doesn't go over the family plan minutes. Which she has before. She chose every option- I couldn't convince her to go cheaper. I think that phone is what breaks her budget the most.

ETA: Non-budget in reality. I asked her once to write down everything she spends in a month (basic budgeting). She couldn't even do that. I think she's too afraid to see the truth, she must suspect how bad it is.

[zippy478]

Sounds like it is a really tough situation. I don't have a whole lot of advice for you but I do know how tough it can be when family is intermingled in your income/expenses. Good luck with this. You don't say much about what your DH has to say about how much you are helping them out (or if you did, I missed it) but how does he feel about the situation? Is he on board with how you are feeling or does he feel "it's my brother/SIL, we need to help them out."

[patchwork150]

Jun 28, 2011 7:04:44 GMT -5 zippy478 said:

Sounds like it is a really tough situation. I don't have a whole lot of advice for you but I do know how tough it can be when family is intermingled in your income/expenses. Good luck with this. You don't say much about what your DH has to say about how much you are helping them out (or if you did, I missed it) but how does he feel about the situation? Is he on board with how you are feeling or does he feel "it's my brother/SIL, we need to help them out."

I think he's on my side- we both wish we could help them straighten out. He is on Snerd's side in that it's their life, we can't intrude too much. He doesn't enjoy continually lending money to SIL, but he understands that his brother is no help to her, and we both feel for our neice. We don't want her to suffer because her dad won't be responsible. But like many pointed out, a fancy phone or dish TV is not suffering. DH has no problem helping them when they really need it- he knows we can afford it- but there have been times that both of us felt a little abused/used. things have gotten better on the used part- SIL was using us for much more, but I finally was able to put a stop to that. (she was basically taking food out of my refidgerator every day for her family.)

[gs11rmb]

I think your SIL is living in an abuse household and she needs to extricate both herself and her daughter as quickly as possible. Perhaps you could help her to make a plan to get away from her 'husband'.

[Wisconsin Beth]

BIL has a thing for saving to buy himself whatever he wants- trucks, hunting gear, etc. He'll save even if his wife can't pay the electricity. It gets worse- when neice is sick and SIL can't work, she is still expected to pay the bills. He won't help with what bills are 'hers'. They BOTH send $ to their parents. SIL can't send much. Last time BIL sent $ it was $800.

Smack your BIL along side the head and tell him to stop being a douchecanoe and to start fulfilling HIS part of the responsibilities toward that child.

ETA - didn't read the whole thread yet.

[midjd]

BIL is a good brother, a great loving son, and a loving dad. but he won't take the responsiblilities of being a real father, husband, etc. And SIL is too afraid to speak up- she seems to think that if she protests too much in an argument or doesn't do what he wants, she will get hurt physically. I know he doesn't beat her up every day, but he has slapped her before and scared her once or twice. So she's afraid of him. She also doesn't want to leave him on the cultural aspect. And lastly, he has told her repeatedly that if they separate she will not be allowed to have her daughter- which is complete BS, but that scares her too.

One of these things is not like the other... I don't care if he's the most "loving son" in the world, what he's doing to your SIL is abuse. It needs to stop, or she needs to leave, simple as that.

However it is very, very difficult to aid someone in leaving an abusive situation if s/he does not want to leave. If your SIL is not willing to leave him, all the cajoling and budget help in the world isn't going to help. I would offer support, but also be working on an exit plan for yourself and your DH.

I know you said your DH is nothing like him - and I believe you - but does he know about the slapping, etc.? I can't imagine someone being OK with his or her own sibling abusing their spouse right next door.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jun 28, 2011 7:52:56 GMT -5 midjd said:

BIL is a good brother, a great loving son, and a loving dad. but he won't take the responsiblilities of being a real father, husband, etc. And SIL is too afraid to speak up- she seems to think that if she protests too much in an argument or doesn't do what he wants, she will get hurt physically. I know he doesn't beat her up every day, but he has slapped her before and scared her once or twice. So she's afraid of him. She also doesn't want to leave him on the cultural aspect. And lastly, he has told her repeatedly that if they separate she will not be allowed to have her daughter- which is complete BS, but that scares her too.

One of these things is not like the other... I don't care if he's the most "loving son" in the world, what he's doing to your SIL is abuse. It needs to stop, or she needs to leave, simple as that.

However it is very, very difficult to aid someone in leaving an abusive situation if s/he does not want to leave. If your SIL is not willing to leave him, all the cajoling and budget help in the world isn't going to help. I would offer support, but also be working on an exit plan for yourself and your DH.

I know you said your DH is nothing like him - and I believe you - but does he know about the slapping, etc.? I can't imagine someone being OK with his or her own sibling abusing their spouse right next door.

[Pants]

Seriously - if my brother was "just occassionally slapping" his girlfriend I would hit him with a tire iron. Patchwork, you came here because of your SIL's money management skills. She behaves in irrational ways because she's scared of your DH's brother who by all accounts is being abusive, emotionally controlling and financially negligent to his family? And you are annoyed with her?
You and your DH need to get your heads on straight.

[patchwork150]

He slapped her 2x and pushed her 1x that I know of, long before they had the baby. But it certainly left an impression. She told me about it AFTER we moved into the same house. She tells me almost everything, I hope I would know if it was worse or happened again. I don't encourage her staying with him, but she has made it clear she isn't leaving so I don't bring it up anymore.

She is scared to have a big fight with him, because those incidences happened during big blow-up fights. I didn't mention he used to drink before the baby as well. He hasn't had a drink since she was born, so 3 years almost. She's afraid to stand up fo herself also because when he gets mad (easily) he won't talk to her for at least 3 days to a week. Not ONE word. She hates it, so she aviods conflict.

Their relationship has improved over the years, it used to be worse. But it still is not a good relationshop IMO. He acts like a child, and she lets him get away with it without one word. She spoils him- she'll do anything and everything to please him, and that has been like that since they dated. He got used to it, and now expects it. It really frustrates her that he takes her for granted.

ETA: I told my DH when I found out about the incidents. But, since they happened years ago, what can you say or do? He certainly was upset to find out something like that about his brother. It isn't going on recently or repetatively thank god. NOT that I am making excuses for something inexcusable like this.

[patchwork150]

But like I said before, about the $ matters, I wish she would take advantage of the system she abuses to save $ so that she COULD leave if she wanted to. She never has a freaking $1 left out of a paycheck, she spends EVERY DIME. I think she could do so much better for herself if she would just see the light.

[midjd]

It is a sad situation. How much does she know about your and your DH's finances? Would you be able to beg out of letting her borrow money by saying you can no longer afford it?

She is not going to "see the light" until the lack of proper money management starts to affect her - whether this means no phone, no TV, or no McDonald's. What incentive does she have to change the way she handles money, if she knows she can go to Patchwork and get some when she's short? Opening her eyes by stopping the flow of money may help her see that there are many things she needs to change about her current lifestyle.

[patchwork150]

Jun 28, 2011 8:21:47 GMT -5 midjd said:

It is a sad situation. How much does she know about your and your DH's finances? Would you be able to beg out of letting her borrow money by saying you can no longer afford it?

She is not going to "see the light" until the lack of proper money management starts to affect her - whether this means no phone, no TV, or no McDonald's. What incentive does she have to change the way she handles money, if she knows she can go to Patchwork and get some when she's short? Opening her eyes by stopping the flow of money may help her see that there are many things she needs to change about her current lifestyle.

A lot of commenters have said I was enabling her behavior. It never occurred to me that I was. I thought about it all last night. I think you're right- I'm her safety net, her emergency fund. She doesn't need savings because she always can come to me!

She knows we make more than them. BIL and my DH work for the same company. And I work in an office job, whereas she makes minimum wage. But, my excuse could be college. I am still attending, and it IS getting expensive for sure. I want to do the visa refillable card as a gift idea. Her birthday's in October- it'd be a great way to give her something to use instead of using ME as the debit card.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jun 28, 2011 8:30:07 GMT -5 patchwork150 said:

Jun 28, 2011 8:21:47 GMT -5 midjd said:

It is a sad situation. How much does she know about your and your DH's finances? Would you be able to beg out of letting her borrow money by saying you can no longer afford it?

She is not going to "see the light" until the lack of proper money management starts to affect her - whether this means no phone, no TV, or no McDonald's. What incentive does she have to change the way she handles money, if she knows she can go to Patchwork and get some when she's short? Opening her eyes by stopping the flow of money may help her see that there are many things she needs to change about her current lifestyle.

A lot of commenters have said I was enabling her behavior. It never occurred to me that I was. I thought about it all last night. I think you're right- I'm her safety net, her emergency fund. She doesn't need savings because she always can come to me!

She knows we make more than them. BIL and my DH work for the same company. And I work in an office job, whereas she makes minimum wage. But, my excuse could be college. I am still attending, and it IS getting expensive for sure. I want to do the visa refillable card as a gift idea. Her birthday's in October- it'd be a great way to give her something to use instead of using ME as the debit card.

Actually, I think she'll use it and blow the money on other stuff, based on what you've said.

[patchwork150]

^ You may be right, but I think it's worth a try at least. If she had the card and the cash, she wouldn't have the excuse to ask me to pay for everything at least.

I do think she acts like this with her money because of her situation. But I still don't think it is right for her to use WIC, medicade, and the food pantry only to spend what she saves on eating out and stupid things. I wish she would sit down and talk to her husband. She won't, I've talked to her about it. The only thing he apparently will tell her is that if she doesn't like the way he does things, the door is open but she can't take her kid with her.

I think if she left him for a month he'd wake up and see what it's like not to have her waiting on him hand and foot. And I bet he'd bring my neice back to her by the second day- he's never bathed, fed, clothed, or changed her diaper before. He has no idea what to do. She's afriad that if she leaves he will never take her back because he holds grudges.

[zibazinski]

Get the hell out of there and this soap opera. It's your husband's problem, don't make it yours. Don't let that kid be used against you, either.

[patchwork150]

Jun 28, 2011 12:43:06 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Get the hell out of there and this soap opera. It's your husband's problem, don't make it yours. Don't let that kid be used against you, either.

I love my neice, but I don't understand. You mean, use her well-being to con me into doing things? Her mom's a pro at that already

[midjd]

Patchwork, a lot of people advise against saying anything more than "no" to a request for money - because any qualification of a "no" will open the door to future requests.

I generally agree with this, BUT, in your case, I think "No - school is getting really expensive and I don't know how we're going to make ends meet..." or "No - we really can't afford it right now" will go over better than a plain "No" (or "No, we're tired of subsidizing your lifestyle")

My reasoning is only that she may back off a bit if she thinks your financial situation has actually changed, rather than thinking it's just you guys not wanting to give her money.

The Visa gift card for her birthday is a good idea... but be prepared for the likely possibility that WiBeth is right and it will all be spent on junk while bills go unpaid.

What is your timetable on the living arrangements? Do either of you have plans to move soon, or are you pretty much set for a while?

[zibazinski]

That's exactly what I mean and if she doesn't use the kid against you, she will use her against someone else. She knows exactly what to say for the pity party and you are the honored guest. I don't believe a word of what she tells you and if any of it is true, you need to tell her that she is a grown adult and knows what to do and to not involve you any further. DON'T GET INVOLVED any further and tell her now that you no longer wish to be involved in any way. Don't listen, don't volunteer, don't ask, don't answer the phone or the door. She needs to get the message that enabling is over, at least on your part. Be prepared for the sulks btw.

[raeoflyte]

Pathwork--that is such a tough situation! How does your husband feel about the way his brother treats his families/finances? I think I would start saying that your dh has the debit/credit card and that if she needs help with a bill that she'll have to talk to him. Then he has an opening to tell his brother to man up and help with the bills while maybe keeping the relationship with all of you intact? Also, if bil says I'm broke because I just sent $800 to mom and dad, your dh can have the airplain oxygen talk about taking care of yourself before helping others.

I probably couldn't be nice to the bil from what you've said (I hold grudges too...), but you've said other nice things about your living arrangement and for the sake of your niece I can see trying to salvage that.

I like the gift card idea too, but....what happens in December when she doesn't have money for the electricity or heat because she spent everything on holidays and gifts? Are you going to be able to tell her that dn can stay with you until she has the money to get it turned back on and let her and bil suffer? Or would you be shelling out more money at the next crisis?

[patchwork150]

I'm still looking into moving overseas. Nothing is set in stone right now.
This situation is not my preference, and the landlord told us he is looking to sell when he retires, which is supposed to be soon (within a year or two). When they decide to sell, I hope to either already be out OR be in the process of getting out.

the thing is, when we move BIL and SIL will be moving out too. They have already said they want to rent together with us or close by us. I'm hoping to have them at least in a different building. DH thinks that if we DID rent together, they would have to get their acts together to make it work, which could help them. I'm not sure I want to test it. This is exactly what all of you are saying I should aviod. I could take this chance to separate from them financially in every way.