zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2011 12:54:28 GMT -5
Unless there is some dire reason you have to live there and you cannot separate yourself otherwise, move, and do not allow them to move where you go. Unreal. You know what to do as well as she does so if you do the right thing, she will be forced to.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 28, 2011 12:55:09 GMT -5
I do kind of agree with Zib, although with family that's much easier said than done. It is unfortunate that a child has been brought into this situation.
One of my very good friends was married to an abusive alcoholic for 10 years (their divorce was just finalized a few months ago). She knew he was bad for her. We would have multi-hour-long conversations about how much she hated living with him and how she knew she had to get out. I lent her money, I offered my house as a place to stay if she decided to leave him... I did everything I could think of to help. But did it make any difference? Nope. She finally moved out when SHE realized that she could do better, and decided to get on with her life.
And although I hate Dr. Phil, he does have a gem - "how's that working for you?" Something about your SIL's situation is working for her... I don't know what (perhaps it's the mini-loans from you and your DH) but something provides her with just enough support to keep from changing her situation. Remove this support, and the wheels might start to turn... she may start to realize there is more out there than taking care of an abusive husband and living paycheck-to-paycheck.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 28, 2011 12:56:29 GMT -5
Do it. It will be the best thing for both of you.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 28, 2011 12:58:11 GMT -5
Also, him telling her she can't take the kid with her, and her not being able to take the kid with her are two different things. She is in a relationship with a history of physical abuse and what I would consider current emotional and possibly financial abuse. If she were to go and take the kid, there is absolutely zero he would be able to do about it until it came time to work out custody/visitation. At which point his history would not count in his favor.
Look, she may or may not be manipulative and a really poor planner, etc. However, she has (via patchwork's description) so many symptoms of battered spouse syndrome and lives with a guy who seems like a tyrant. While yes, she needs to take responsibility for herself and her kid, I cannot understand for the life of me how you guys are blaming her for all of this with the backstory that's been given. Add in the fact that her apparent support system is also angry with her rather than the ass she's married to and you have a person who seems completely without resources.
Zib - seriously? You've decided she's lying and he never hit her and doesn't throw their food out and isn't terrible to her even though Patchwork has admitted he is terrible?
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Jun 28, 2011 12:58:27 GMT -5
the thing is, when we move BIL and SIL will be moving out too. They have already said they want to rent together with us or close by us. I'm hoping to have them at least in a different building. DH thinks that if we DID rent together, they would have to get their acts together to make it work, which could help them. I'm not sure I want to test it. This is exactly what all of you are saying I should aviod. I could take this chance to separate from them financially in every way. No No No No No! Do NOT rent with them until they BOTH act like adults and get their stuff together. That means STOP defrauding charities/programs for the needy and pretending to be married/single however you look at it. If your BIL won't even keep the heat/electricity on so he can send money to mom, there's a problem. If your SIL buys chinese food instead of putting gas in teh car, that's a problem. If these problems persist, I really don't know how long they'll stay 'married' and then you'd be living with a divorcing/seperating couple and be in the middle. It may be the fact you bail SIL out all the time is the reason that she and BIL are still together. In-Laws shouldn't be what's holding a relationship together.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Jun 28, 2011 12:59:56 GMT -5
Pathwork--that is such a tough situation! How does your husband feel about the way his brother treats his families/finances? I think I would start saying that your dh has the debit/credit card and that if she needs help with a bill that she'll have to talk to him. Then he has an opening to tell his brother to man up and help with the bills while maybe keeping the relationship with all of you intact? Also, if bil says I'm broke because I just sent $800 to mom and dad, your dh can have the airplain oxygen talk about taking care of yourself before helping others. I probably couldn't be nice to the bil from what you've said (I hold grudges too...), but you've said other nice things about your living arrangement and for the sake of your niece I can see trying to salvage that. I like the gift card idea too, but....what happens in December when she doesn't have money for the electricity or heat because she spent everything on holidays and gifts? Are you going to be able to tell her that dn can stay with you until she has the money to get it turned back on and let her and bil suffer? Or would you be shelling out more money at the next crisis? Thanks for the understanding. DH loves his brother, but I know he worries about my neice and her being in the middle of all of that more than anything else. He always says kids are the ones that suffer the most in things like this. As for december, I always can use the same excuse against her. Electiricty is expensive, christmas is expensive- how would she know that I also was out of money from the holiday lol?
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Jun 28, 2011 13:00:47 GMT -5
Also, him telling her she can't take the kid with her, and her not being able to take the kid with her are two different things. She is in a relationship with a history of physical abuse and what I would consider current emotional and possibly financial abuse. If she were to go and take the kid, there is absolutely zero he would be able to do about it until it came time to work out custody/visitation. At which point his history would not count in his favor. Look, she may or may not be manipulative and a really poor planner, etc. However, she has (via patchwork's description) so many symptoms of battered spouse syndrome and lives with a guy who seems like a tyrant. While yes, she needs to take responsibility for herself and her kid, I cannot understand for the life of me how you guys are blaming her for all of this with the backstory that's been given. Add in the fact that her apparent support system is also angry with her rather than the ass she's married to and you have a person who seems completely without resources. This too!
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Clever Username
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Post by Clever Username on Jun 28, 2011 13:07:30 GMT -5
I gotta say you need to practice your "broke speak" more. Have you ever seen Shawshank Redemption?
Watch the scene where they ask why each is in prison. "Lawyer screwed me." You need an insta-reply like that.
"Sorry, spent it all on hookers and blow."
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2011 13:09:23 GMT -5
How do we know? The SIL is a liar and a cheat, so we should take her word for how she is treated? Liars and professional manipulators know what to say and how to say it for maxiumum effect.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 28, 2011 13:18:09 GMT -5
Another perspective is that the longer you can provide a positive role model for dn, the better her chance of not repeating her parents cycle.
A friend of ours had 2 kids that we loved like our own. They lived in the same apartment building for a while and the kids would just run down the hall and let themselves in. After separation from douchcanoe #1 we took the kids every other weekend. Unfortunately douchcanoe #2 was way worse, and friends situation deteriorated. We finally cut ties when CPS would not respond to our calls/complaints, and the mom repeatedly made choices that put douchcanoe #2 above her kids.
I still regret that we lost contact with the kids for so long. Although after 10 years we've reconnected (with mom too) and things are looking up. I hope, hope, hope, that the kids saw that they can choose a different path. From what I see on fb I think they are making a better life for themselves.
Not to say that you have to give in every time, but a reminder that you are doing good just by being available to dn, and dsil (hopefully).
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Jun 28, 2011 13:34:49 GMT -5
Also, him telling her she can't take the kid with her, and her not being able to take the kid with her are two different things. She is in a relationship with a history of physical abuse and what I would consider current emotional and possibly financial abuse. If she were to go and take the kid, there is absolutely zero he would be able to do about it until it came time to work out custody/visitation. At which point his history would not count in his favor. Look, she may or may not be manipulative and a really poor planner, etc. However, she has (via patchwork's description) so many symptoms of battered spouse syndrome and lives with a guy who seems like a tyrant. While yes, she needs to take responsibility for herself and her kid, I cannot understand for the life of me how you guys are blaming her for all of this with the backstory that's been given. Add in the fact that her apparent support system is also angry with her rather than the ass she's married to and you have a person who seems completely without resources. Zib - seriously? You've decided she's lying and he never hit her and doesn't throw their food out and isn't terrible to her even though Patchwork has admitted he is terrible? She throws out their food- because he won't eat it. But, I never said BIL was a good husband. He is an asshole, yes. As for SIL- it hurts that you think I don't care about her. I am NOT MAD at her, I have been helping her for 3 years now and have gotten nowhere. She does have manipulative tendencies, and we have had our share of fights. But I still value our relationship, and I do care. I have had sympathy for her for years, and that is why I have tried to help her so much. She takes advantage of the help, but I don't stop her either. ETA: I feel dissillusioned, dissapointed, tired, frustrated. I am not ANGRY with her. I don't consider her 'battered'. There are a lot of issues there that need professional help. I never said she wouldn't be better of without her husband. And I have always told her the same thing- he cannot take away her kid, not ever, and she knows it. He uses it to cow her.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 28, 2011 13:37:36 GMT -5
Patchwork, it is obvious you do care about her - and your niece. And you are well within your rights to be frustrated - I know how frustrating it can be! But all the caring in the world won't get her to change her ways. Only having her support system temporarily removed will do this.
And I would go ahead and start nipping conversations about your future living arrangements in the bud - so they aren't floored to find out they aren't moving in with you two.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 28, 2011 13:44:18 GMT -5
If he's telling her she's worthless/useless/stupid/lousy in bed/etc. that's emotional battering. In some ways it can be worse that physical bettering because it eats at your sense of self. I have an ex who used to play mind games with me to the point where I'd question my memory of a conversation with him. ME, who used to take pride in being able to give accurate recounts of conversations. He never laid a hand on me but d@mn I question myself and my memory more due in part to him (Mommy memory ain't my friend either.)
Have you told her flat out that he's an asshole and she can/should do better than him?
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Jun 28, 2011 13:53:32 GMT -5
If he's telling her she's worthless/useless/stupid/lousy in bed/etc. that's emotional battering. In some ways it can be worse that physical bettering because it eats at your sense of self. I have an ex who used to play mind games with me to the point where I'd question my memory of a conversation with him. ME, who used to take pride in being able to give accurate recounts of conversations. He never laid a hand on me but d@mn I question myself and my memory more due in part to him (Mommy memory ain't my friend either.) Have you told her flat out that he's an asshole and she can/should do better than him? I should be able to recognize signs of it, considering what I myself have gone through. He is not mean to her on the daily, no. He is really passive agressive though. Most of the time, he is quiet. He doesn't talk alot, and he has his good days. He never helps around the house, and he won't hold serious conversations with his wife. He always tells her 'there's the door if you don't like it' and thats about as far as it goes. She won't push it, like I said earlier. She serves him dinner- he doesn't want it because of how picky he is, so he won't eat it. She'll cook him something else- I told you guys, she waits on him hand and foot. When he gets up in the morning, she has his breakfast ready and coffee ready before work- she is up hours before leaving (cooking breakfast, getting DN ready) and he gets up 10 minutes before leaving. Stuff like this. And since she has always done this, he expects it. If she can't for whatever reason, he gets upset and gives her the silent treatment for days, refuses to eat. ETA: I have told her, I would NEVER put up with this. I would never act like my husband's mom/maid/servant either.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2011 13:55:55 GMT -5
Well, she knows what she has to do but won't do it for various reasons. You getting involved in it does not help her and hurts you. Enabling does not help.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Jun 28, 2011 13:57:33 GMT -5
...Think about the example she's setting for the niece
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Jun 28, 2011 14:01:41 GMT -5
Well, she knows what she has to do but won't do it for various reasons. You getting involved in it does not help her and hurts you. Enabling does not help. Like I said, I never thought of it as enabling. I am ready to start changing how I deal with it, hopefully things will improve over time. I can't change her personal life, and I have done about as much as she will allow me to really help her on the money front. If she was really wanting to learn, I would be more than willing to show her what I have learned. I guess bank of patchwork is going to start closing. ...Think about the example she's setting for the niece Agreed.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Jun 28, 2011 14:13:08 GMT -5
I guess bank of patchwork is going to start closing. Good for you and Karma
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Jun 28, 2011 14:15:48 GMT -5
aww thanks. and to clairify, I am still here for her. She can always talk to me, and if she REALLY needed the help I would help her or DN. But I am going to start saying no on paying random bills for her, tell her she can't continue to pay me so late, etc. I hope she can get her act together.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2011 14:21:14 GMT -5
You probably weren't here when the mom told her adult daughter to move out. It wasn't easy or pretty and we helped/supported her a lot before she did it. We're here for you if you need support. She's going to make you feel guilty big time. Get your DH on board and be prepared to not answer door or cell for awhile.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 28, 2011 14:22:48 GMT -5
Patchwork, I think that is definitely the best course of action, for all of you. Good luck - and like Zib said, we're all here for support whenever you need it! And keep us updated
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 14:39:06 GMT -5
the thing is, when we move BIL and SIL will be moving out too. They have already said they want to rent together with us or close by us. I'm hoping to have them at least in a different building. DH thinks that if we DID rent together, they would have to get their acts together to make it work, which could help them. I'm not sure I want to test it. This is exactly what all of you are saying I should aviod. I could take this chance to separate from them financially in every way. No No No No No! Do NOT rent with them until they BOTH act like adults and get their stuff together. That means STOP defrauding charities/programs for the needy and pretending to be married/single however you look at it. If your BIL won't even keep the heat/electricity on so he can send money to mom, there's a problem. If your SIL buys chinese food instead of putting gas in teh car, that's a problem. If these problems persist, I really don't know how long they'll stay 'married' and then you'd be living with a divorcing/seperating couple and be in the middle. It may be the fact you bail SIL out all the time is the reason that she and BIL are still together. In-Laws shouldn't be what's holding a relationship together. actually, since they are not legally married, it's possible that he would have no rights to the child without opening up a custody case if she left and took the child.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Jun 28, 2011 14:45:51 GMT -5
Especially if his name isn't on the birth certificate.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jun 28, 2011 16:25:47 GMT -5
He is abusive even if he never hits her again. My ex slapped me once and pushed me once but threatened until I stood up to him. I explained I wasn't going to live in fear and if he even threatened me I was leaving. He didn't again until he started drinking and I left him. Even when not hitting or threatening he was controlling and damaged my self esteem. He told me I was fat, lazy and stupid and if he didn't love me I wouldn't ever find anyone else. I was fat but not lazy or stupid, well maybe lazy too but not stupid. I had a man fall in love with me about 5 months later, but dumped him. I have had the same man now 25 years so I guess I am not alone for life for not being good enough.
SIL has faults but is still a victim. She doesn't need to throw out food he won't eat, she can make him something else and she can eat the rejected food never cooking for herself just living on his leftovers. When he won't help with basic bills she can let the power be turned off instead of borrowing money. He won't like not having power to have her cook his meals, he can pay the bills. I don't know what he pays in the way of household bills and support for the daughter but he may already give her enough money to pay his share of rent and utilities and food.
She may need to sit in the dark in silence a few days to get him to see the light. He isn't a loving father if he abuses his child's mother, physically, emotionally or financially.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 28, 2011 16:34:06 GMT -5
LOL - add hilarious!
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 28, 2011 17:45:47 GMT -5
aww thanks. and to clairify, I am still here for her. She can always talk to me, and if she REALLY needed the help I would help her or DN. But I am going to start saying no on paying random bills for her, tell her she can't continue to pay me so late, etc. I hope she can get her act together. Patchwork, good for you. Discontinuing the enabling can help her a lot more than handouts. I'm going to add one suggestion -because you've indicated that helping her has not created financial hardship and your DH doesn't seem to mind. The next time she comes to you for a "loan" and you say, "Sorry", you could take the money you would have given her and set it aside for her. Then if the day ever comes that she decides to leave her abusive SO, you can give her the funds to help her build a new life...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2011 17:51:28 GMT -5
You can also have cards with women's shelters, counseling services, things like that on hand to hand her. You are not a trained counselor and her problems are getting to you.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jun 28, 2011 20:08:36 GMT -5
You can also have cards with women's shelters, counseling services, things like that on hand to hand her. You are not a trained counselor and her problems are getting to you.
This isn't a good idea, if her husband saw them he might feel she was starting to get out of his control and hurt her bad or kill her. If she looks at shelters and dials one make sure she dials something after on a house phone so he can't check last number dialed. If she only has a cell have her use someone else's phone.
If she ever leaves she should only do it once it is dangerous. Most women leave more average is 7 tries. Decide what you want to do and do it once if you need to escape. It is tempting to go back no matter what you think when you leave. Too much new stuff all at once and you miss your home and his family.
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bring in the new year
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Post by bring in the new year on Jun 30, 2011 15:13:59 GMT -5
Patchwork,
I know it looks like SIL is being picked on but this is not a good situation. You say the situation has gotten better, but what you seem to mean is - she no longer asks or pushes BIL for anything because he's hit her in the past. That's not better - that's fear.
That's also not the situation you want niece growing up in.
I'm with the people who say to cut off the funds but I would not say it to her first. Either you or DH needs to have a conversation with BIL that starts we can't do this any more without mentionning SIL.
Because right now, you're going to cut her off, he's going to come home and find there's no electricity or phone or groceries and who do you think he's going to blame? If he has hit her in the past or even if he's just a bully, this will easily become her fault.
Unless you're living in a foreign country, you might also want to have DH mention to his brother that in America, he's not getting custody. He's not acting like the custodial parent, she can probably prove that he's not contributing his full share to the household and there may be prior physical abuse. But the judge can still award her child support even if they're not legally married. (I'm guessing BIL thinks he can have the best of both worlds since there's no paper)
None of that solves her spending problems or her fraud problems but it may change BIL's attitude.
Under no circumstances would I mix living arrangements with them again. At this rate, authorities are going to get involved and if you're not part of it, you might be able to keep niece out of CS.
Good luck.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 30, 2011 16:29:41 GMT -5
I don't like this, but for certain cultures, this is how things are done. They do not KNOW any other way. Yes, her DH of the same culture has obviously figured out how to be better. OP, are you the same culture as the two brothers and SIL?
As to the matters of getting out, think about whether you and your DH still want to be playing Bizarro World Full House with these people in 5 years. I agree that the cleanest way to get out is to move for a reason that they can't argue, to a place they won't follow. It has been proven time and time again that people like your ILs will not change their situation until the consequences for not changing outweigh the discomfort/effort of making the change.
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