Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 10, 2011 13:23:10 GMT -5
But it wasn't a challenge. My real learning took place when I left school. That was my point. If PS was challenging for advanced students it would be impossible for non advanced students. That's just the way it is. Maybe your parents could have tailored a program specifically for you at home that would have kept you challenged. Then again, maybe they would have purchased a canned curriculum just like the public school uses and you would have worked through the same boring material without ever being challenged, only you would have done it by yourself in the dining room at home instead of a classroom at school.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 10, 2011 13:25:10 GMT -5
If PS was challenging for advanced students it would be impossible for non advanced students. That's just the way it is.
Exactly. I feel like I'm not coming across very clearly, because you guys keep repeating exactly what I think I'm saying.
If PS was a challenging, exciting environment for me in the way I'm talking about, it wouldn't have worked for a lot of the other kids. We're not even talking about the kids who DON'T do well in the PS system - we're talking about the kids who do well in it. Doing well in the PS system does NOT necessarily mean doing well as a student.
That's my point. And I agree that parents need to close the gap on their own, not expect the school to do it. It's not the school's job - I'm not AT ALL suggesting that it is, or should be.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2011 13:32:17 GMT -5
I don't think you are Firebird.
With my birdhouse comments I am thinking more back to the original thread that LA808 started on EE about unschooling (and I'd vote that she's a radical unschooler). She was bitching about how public schools are shitty because he grandson learns geometry so much better with pizza pies and birdhouses, but PS won't teach him that way.
I think it is great that there are other options available now for even people who don't have a lot of money.
I just sometimes think people don't stop to realize that PS is designed to offer every child A education, not the best, not the most indivudally tailored, but A education.
Before that you were lucky if you could even write your own name, let alone do what even the lowest kid in school can do nowadays.
Now that everyone has A education, we want even MORE from our school systems.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2011 13:32:54 GMT -5
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2011 13:32:37 GMT -5
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 10, 2011 13:46:01 GMT -5
I didn't read that EE thread, but I think that it is obvious that a large system cannot possibly cater to each individual. This "flaw" is inherent in the very design. When you homeschool, you eliminate this problem. This is precisely why homeschooling can be better. So the kid who learns geometry better by building can do that in a homeschool environment, but the local school doesn't have the ability to change everything to suit that kid. It doesn't make the local school bad or evil, it is merely limited by its design and its size.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 10, 2011 13:48:18 GMT -5
It doesn't make the local school bad or evil, it is merely limited by its design and its size.
I feel like it uses the inherent limitations of "well, we can't make it work for EVERYONE" (which are legitimate) as an excuse not to make their program work for a significant number of students, though.
Plenty of kids do not do well in a "teach to the test" environment. They COULD allow for that a little better, if they wanted to. They COULD offer a few more alternatives, if they wanted to. Not enough that EVERYONE has a great experience but enough that more students could have a better one.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2011 13:51:07 GMT -5
And then some people overschool and get an article written about how they are giving their kid an unfair advantage.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 10, 2011 13:55:36 GMT -5
I feel like it uses the inherent limitations of "well, we can't make it work for EVERYONE" (which are legitimate) as an excuse not to make their program work for a significant number of students, though. Funny, I feel the exact opposite. I see them spending too much time and resources trying to educate through alternative means and shortchanging a good chunk of kids in the process. Poorly designed tracking, mainstreaming special ed kids, ESL kids in regular classrooms, handing out passing grades for substandard work, refusing to discipline little Johnny and Suzie because they have a rough home life, etc. Schools bend over back wards to accommodate students these days, and I don't think it really helps anyone in the long run.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 10, 2011 13:57:40 GMT -5
<< Plenty of kids do not do well in a "teach to the test" environment. They COULD allow for that a little better, if they wanted to. They COULD offer a few more alternatives, if they wanted to. Not enough that EVERYONE has a great experience but enough that more students could have a better one. >>
I disagree. With the No Child Left Behind Curriculum, everything is very structured. So many minutes per day MUST be spent doing this and doing that, there is very little left to the teacher's discretion. I think that NCLB is one of the worst ideas in public education ever.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 13:58:44 GMT -5
That is why I wouldn't put my kids in the same school system that they went through. DS just missed all that baloney and DD got stuck with a lot of it. I was still teaching after she went on and it went to hell in a handbasket. I'm sure there are schools somewhere other than private that aren't inundated with all that nonsense but if they are public they are still forced to test the beejeezus out of kids.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2011 14:01:40 GMT -5
Schools bend over back wards to accommodate students these days, and I don't think it really helps anyone in the long run. I'll admit I don't know enough about NCLB because I was pretty much out of school and don't have kids old enough to be in school. I used to have to take the Iowa Basic Skills test every year though and don't remember being "taught to the test" and it was only 3 days out of the entire year. Is NCLB more testing than that?
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 10, 2011 14:09:30 GMT -5
Drama, NCLB is a nightmare. My BFF is a teacher and NCLB has put them on so tight of a leash that you don't even need an actual teacher to do it. She has strict lesson plans and cannot deviate from them. They spend the majority of their day on Math and English with pretty much no time for science, social studies, art, music, etc. This is because the test is on math and reading. Because everything is structured around the stupid test, if she needs more time on a certain subject (say fractions), she is not allowed to slow down to make sure that everyone gets it. She must plow through and test every week, regardless of whether or not the kids are learning. She also had to make sure that all of the kids will pass the test, even the ones who don't speak english or are disabled. It is ridiculous. I agree that the fundamentals should be taught but give the teacher some leeway. That is why they are a teacher. Plus teaching things like Science and Social studies can help the kids learn math and english better (How do you do science problems without math? How do you learn about history without being able to read?). By using these other subjects, it would keep the kids more interested while they are learning (How much more fun would it be to learn fractions/measurements by measuring out the amount of baking soda and vinegar for your volcano vs reading it out of a stupid math book? How much more fun is it to read about kids during the American Revolution or Princes and Princesses of Europe than to sit around reading an English reader?). I think that would expand their minds while ensuring that they don't end up hating what they perceive "learning" to be.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 10, 2011 14:15:09 GMT -5
I don't know about being tested the bajesus out of.
Back in my day we took the ISTEP (indiana standardized test) every other year for a few days. It wasn't a big deal. Things may have changed but I don't think 3 days every two years was excessive.
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kiskis
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Post by kiskis on Jun 10, 2011 14:16:30 GMT -5
If PS was a challenging, exciting environment for me in the way I'm talking about, it wouldn't have worked for a lot of the other kids. We're not even talking about the kids who DON'T do well in the PS system - we're talking about the kids who do well in it. Doing well in the PS system does NOT necessarily mean doing well as a student. That's my point. And I agree that parents need to close the gap on their own, not expect the school to do it. It's not the school's job - I'm not AT ALL suggesting that it is, or should be. I think I get what you're saying. For an advanced student, getting A's in PS is too easy. However, if you (or your parents) take initiative, you can actually get quite a lot of special treatment out of PS. I skipped 8th grade, took an extra language, and completed all the math classes my HS had to offer by the end of sophomore year. My mom was one of those mega-involved academic asian parents and my teachers really liked me, so I got a lot of special attention, including one-on-one math class to do linear algebra after I had finished the two levels of calculus that were available. I also took classes at the local college. None of this cost my family any extra money. My high school was not anything fancy. I think it was a pretty typical PS, not rated poorly, but not particularly great either. If my parents and I had not spoken up, I would have faded into the background and been easily ignored. I guess this is part of parents helping to "close the gap," but the school did step up.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 10, 2011 14:23:55 GMT -5
<< Is NCLB more testing than that? >>
Yes.
I am not a teacher, but I have volunteered extensively in my kids' classrooms. One of ds' teachers showed me her NCLB books. Yowza. She had an outline for every single day of the school year, how many minutes would be spent giving instruction on x, y, and z. They were not her own personal outlines she had made; some beaurocrat someplace who had never met a single student in the class had already decided what would be taught in that class that year.
In another class, I had a teacher ask me to help some students with something they didn't understand. It seems the teacher had already discussed the concept and NO MORE MINUTES were allotted for that concept, so the teacher would not be going over it again. It wasn't a matter of the teacher deciding it was time to move on, it was a matter of the curriculum dictating it was time to move on. I don't know what the penalties are for failing to comply, but since it is all tied into funding, I would imagine the penalties are serious.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 14:28:46 GMT -5
Drama, NCLB is a nightmare. My BFF is a teacher and NCLB has put them on so tight of a leash that you don't even need an actual teacher to do it. She has strict lesson plans and cannot deviate from them. That sounds like an absolute nightmare and would make me wonder why I even needed any skills in drawing up lesson plans, looking for extra classroom resources, trying to tailor my teaching to the learning styles of different kids, etc. There's no room for any of it. NCLB just created a lot of new problems and added more layers of (taxpayer-funded) bureaucrats.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2011 14:31:41 GMT -5
NCLB just created a lot of new problems and added more layers of (taxpayer-funded) bureaucratsWhich is usually what happens. We had a joke in our old lab that you don't complain too loudly about the bureaucrats because they will just create another department to deal with complaints against the current one.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 10, 2011 14:32:41 GMT -5
<< Back in my day we took the ISTEP (indiana standardized test) every other year for a few days. It wasn't a big deal. Things may have changed but I don't think 3 days every two years was excessive. >>
I agree that would not be excessive. Standardized tests used to be one measure of progress, but now they have morphed into The Measure of Progress.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 14:44:18 GMT -5
We used to have a test called CTBS. It was used IN HOUSE and it helped the teacher, both the present one and the future one, know what your kids strengths and weaknesses were. A wonderful tool used the RIGHT way.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 10, 2011 14:48:07 GMT -5
I took the CTBS when I was a kid.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2011 14:51:57 GMT -5
I don't remember what the IBST was for, I just remember that I thought it was awesome to get three days where all we had to do was fill out a bubble sheet. ;D
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 10, 2011 15:35:59 GMT -5
DS isn't even 2 yet and any time we think about school I literally want to run and hide.
I don't even know how to pick a school distric for public school....
DH is 'qualified' in my eyes to homeschool DS, but I don't think he has the temperament for it, and I really want ds to get the socialization aspect out of school. I was so shy, that as much as I wished I was home schooled deep down I knew it would be a bad idea. I was involved in a half dozen activities, but my friends were the ones I saw every day, fought with sometimes, learned to make up, etc.
Religious private school is out of the question. If we could afford to get him into a private school that had a lot of diversity I would consider it. I like the idea of tutoring to supplement public school.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2011 15:38:47 GMT -5
Phenoix, you're from Indiana? I took the ISTEP too
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 10, 2011 15:48:20 GMT -5
If it makes you feel any better, I worried more about grade school when my kids were 2 then I did once they entered. At 2, you don't really know what kind of kid you have - and they are all perfect and special in your eyes and what-not. A year of preschool and you realize that they are, most likely, normal. They might be smarter than average, or better at letters, or even doing some sight words, etc. But, they most likely, if you are honest, fall into a normal range. And you will meet a bunch of parents who have kids in this school or that school and they will tell you about it, and you will figure out which one appeals to you based on whatever criteria you've got going on that day, and you will choose one. If you are smart it will be one that is close and where you know other families. Everyone says driving their kids around is okay - but dropping them off for a playdate 1 mile from your house is much better than 30 miles. They will want to join the same baseball league or dance class as their friends - which will most likely be on or near your kid's school campus - so living within a couple of miles makes that a lot easier. It works itself out. I remember one night staying up ALL NIGHT worrying about kindergarten. I think my kids were 6 months old and 2.5 years old. Yes, there is a productive use of my time.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 10, 2011 16:09:09 GMT -5
Thyme--it really does make me feel better, thank you! ;D
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 10, 2011 16:12:21 GMT -5
Well - now that my kids are the ripe old age of 7 and 8, I stay up all night worrying about high school. The district public high school is not doing very well, and nobody from our neighborhood goes there. So, we have a pretty big decision to make . . . . . . . in 6 years! Worrying is part of motherhood. Embrace it!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 10, 2011 16:16:57 GMT -5
You joke about it, but if they're going to be able to keep up at the good high school you're sending them to instead of the crappy one, they need a decent middle school. That means you need to have that plan in place by the end of fifth grade. For an 8 year old that's what, two years away? Maybe three? It's practically crunch time already. Quit slacking and get this stuff nailed down, we're talking about your children's future after all.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 10, 2011 16:21:57 GMT -5
I know - our middle school actually starts at 5th grade, and our district middle school is very good. Although, we are wondering if it is the correct place for our daughter. It is very "sports" oriented. I think my son will do well there, but my daughter is more of a shrinking violet. There is another school that the girl might do well in, but my son would probably kill himself, or someone else. So, we are wondering if there is a third option, and starting to explore that. There is a very good Catholic school - but...it is catholic. No offense to you pope lovers - it is just that we don't believe the same things, and I feel like a hypocrit. Plus, that feeds into the catholic high school - which I absolutely will NOT send my daughter to.
There is a great high school in the next district over, and many, many people go there from our middle school. That high school loves to take our kind, because the dollars cross district lines.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 10, 2011 16:26:03 GMT -5
I was joking in my previous post... but I feel you on worrying about this stuff. My wife and I have already looked into and discussed different high school options for our daughters who just finished third and fourth grade.
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