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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 15:16:39 GMT -5
The classroom is full of kids with behavioral issues and other problems that private schools do not have to deal with. Plus, that almighty test that the whole curriculum is focused on. <snip> No way would I put my student in a school with ANY religious affiliation because religion and not academics is the focus. I agree with the first part- they're trying to be everything to everyone- therapist, supplier of meals, Mom, Dad, ESL teacher- whatever is missing for every kid. They're being spread too thin. I feel like it won't stop till every kid has an IEP (Individual Education Plan or the local equivalent). As someone who attended religious schooling for 11 of my first 12 years, I have to defend it. At the time I resented it and called it "brainwashing" and, yes, that Sexual Revolution stuff after HS was part of a mini-rebellion, but I got a good education and made the Dean's List just about every quarter in college. Private schools generally don't have the funds for excessive bureaucracy and frou-frou. They can fire ineffective teachers. They know that parents will take their kids and their money elsewhere if they're not happy. Only the most blindly devout adherents to a faith will put up with an expensive and crappy education for their kids just so they get the right religious values. I've actually started donating money to my old high school even though I've joined another faith group.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 15:17:46 GMT -5
I'm a huge proponent of homeschooling, but I don't know if I want to do it now. I'm not sure either DF or I have the temperament for it, and if we move to the right area there should be plenty of alternative schools for us to choose from, schools that aren't going to cram everything down every students' throat equally every damn day.
I don't necessarily object to public school, just the way traditional public school is run. I'm happy to pay for a private school that's on the same wavelength, and if we're lucky maybe we can even find a good public school that is.
Besides, we can always homeschool and unschool on our own. Public school works fine for some kids, properly supplemented of course.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 15:19:54 GMT -5
I think it is going to be interesting to see how the main streaming of home-schooling shakes out. I think there is going to be an even wider difference in outcomes than those of the public school system, because the parents who are doing it are so different in the effort they are putting into it. The example I have seen are all over the place.
I know 2 families who did it because their kid flunked out of regular school so of course it was the school's fault. Both of those instances resulted in a child who never finished school, not even a GED. The parents expected the kids to learn from the computer without any involvement.
I know 1 family where the mother was a school teacher, but for religious reasons she didn't want her kids in public school. Those kids seem really smart and well socialized. She is part of a big home schooling network.
I know another family where the kids were home schooled because the family couldn't afford to send them to a religious based school. They all graduated high school, but there are some holes in there education, that I think would make going to a traditional college difficult.
I don't have the patience for home schooling and my dd learns so much better from someone else.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 15:22:24 GMT -5
I know another family where the kids were home schooled because the family couldn't afford to send them to a religious based school. They all graduated high school, but there are some holes in their education, that I think would make going to a traditional college difficult. Yeah, the stereotype is that they're bright, highly verbal, well-read, and behind everyone else in Math and Science. Not always true, of course, but sometimes it reflects the education of the parent doing the primary teaching.
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Jun 9, 2011 15:23:55 GMT -5
And I may have been a little too unfair with religion but I am basing it off of this one family I know that only teaches real world values by the bible and bible alone. Math and Biology is voodoo magic for them literally. The Sun revolves around the Earth. So I'm basing it on a personal experience there. I do know some smart homeschooled kids as well. Personally, I think PS is insulating and harmful in a different way. What about school is anything like the real world?! School may not exactly be the real world, but I think it's a lot closer to the real world than homeschooling is. For starters, the schedule is stricter. (Yes, I know homeschoolers have schedules, but if Susie is late coming downstairs because she missed her alarm, her mom probably isn't going to give her a detention). Secondly, you don't have a choice over who's in your classes at school - you have to deal with the jocks, stoners, mean girls, whoever else goes to your school. In my job, I still have to show up at 8am and I don't get to pick my co-workers. I'm NOT saying homeschooled kids can't deal with the real world - but I think that school is a lot closer to the real world than being homeschooled. (Now donning flame retardant suit) Unless you're just planning on being a SAHM....
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 15:25:22 GMT -5
I know 2 families who did it because their kid flunked out of regular school so the of course it was the school's fault. Both of those instances resulted in a child who never finished school, not even a GED. The parents expected the kids to learn from the computer without any involvement.
Me too! And it was a demonstrable mistake from the word go. The kid spent all.freaking.day on IM and never completed his assignments on time. It was like HELLO, what do you expect?
I think it is going to be interesting to see how the main streaming of home-schooling shakes out. I think there is going to be an even wider difference in outcomes than those of the public school system, because the parents who are doing it are so different in the effort they are putting into it. The example I have seen are all over the place.
This is the truth. Which is why it makes me so mad when people generalize based on their own experiences.
I visited a community in New England and man, they should be the model from which all alternative learning centers are cast. Amazingly supportive, involved parents, great teachers, a rich and vast resource pool, wonderful facilities... it was just great. It was a true community. Everyone there was obsessed with learning, especially the kids. It was great to see.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 15:31:33 GMT -5
For starters, the schedule is stricter. (Yes, I know homeschoolers have schedules, but if Susie is late coming downstairs because she missed her alarm, her mom probably isn't going to give her a detention).
That depends on the parents too. You need to teach your kids punctuality. My friend (who places an extremely high value on being timely) gives her kids extra chores for every minute they're late to anything that's supposed to start at a specific time, be it a music lesson or a movie or a homeschooling session.
You can say that school is more likely to impart this virtue, but I disagree. Plenty of teachers don't care if the kids are late (and even more kids don't care about detention). I routinely skipped my classes or came in late, and I don't remember ever being disciplined for it.
Secondly, you don't have a choice over who's in your classes at school - you have to deal with the jocks, stoners, mean girls, whoever else goes to your school.
True but... so what? I mean, you don't get to choose your siblings either right? And there are plenty of other situations in life that can teach this same lesson.
I don't think that the fact that kids have to deal with jocks, stoners, losers, and mean girls is a strong argument in favor of public schools. I think it's a pretty strong argument AGAINST public schools. Once you reach a certain point in your life, you DO get to choose the people you associate with on a daily basis. And there is a certain standard of courtesy demanded in most adult situations that is not demanded in school.
You may not get to choose your coworkers, but I bet they're not allowed to talk during meetings, or distract you by flinging spitballs at your computer.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jun 9, 2011 15:33:21 GMT -5
Firebird, I think you are not following exactly what we are all saying. None of us are ANTI-homeschooling.
What we are trying to say is that homeschooling is not the best choice out there and public schools are not the POS they are always made out to be. Athena and zibzanski make it sound like the public school system is so worthless that the only option left is homeschooling if you want a good education for your child. NOT TRUE.
Not all home schoolers are wonderful, smart, best in everything and very socially adept. Just like not all public school students are wonderful, smart, best in everything and very socially adept.
So homeschooling is NOT the holy grail of education. It might be good if you can make it. But so can the public school education is the school is good enough and the parents supplement the education with their own effort.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 15:39:33 GMT -5
I'm NOT saying homeschooled kids can't deal with the real world - but I think that school is a lot closer to the real world than being homeschooled.
Let's see...
Public School: -No choices over your classes or their subject matter. -No choices over your teachers. -No choices over who goes to your classes or how much of a distraction they are. -Bullying, teasing, pressure of "dressing right" and fitting in, cliques. -Minimal individual attention, especially if you are way behind OR way ahead.
Homeschool (ideally): -Wide variety of subjects, tailored to the students' individual interests and strengths. -Unlimited individual attention. -Ability to instantly spot problem subjects, slow down and take things at own pace. -Choice of company and activities. -More control over schedule. -More personal responsibility for one's education.
Real Life: -Choose your job. -Choose where you live. -Choose where you work. -Choose your friends, your partner, your religion, your social life. -If you want to learn about a subject, you take the initiative to learn it yourself. -Deal with people treating you badly by removing yourself from the situation or by confronting them directly. -Dress how you like, eat how you like, worship how you like...
One of these is not like the other.
Homeschooling is NOT perfect, but if done properly (I recognize that's a huge caveat) it should be a much more accurate mirror of real life than public school. Public school has almost no parallels in the real world. It's vastly different even from college.
The biggest difference in my mind? Public school is designed to keep you in reactive mode for as long as possible. Think about it - can you name one thing that we do in public school which is NOT a reaction to someone telling us to do it? I can't. Yet in the real world, that's not how things work at all. Adults have to be PROactive about things that matter to them.
Homeschooling is a much better conduit for teaching a kid how to be proactive and responsible for their own choices than public school. IMHO.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 15:42:00 GMT -5
What we are trying to say is that homeschooling is not the best choice out there and public schools are not the POS they are always made out to be. Athena and zibzanski make it sound like the public school system is so worthless that the only option left is homeschooling if you want a good education for your child. NOT TRUE.
And I just got finished saying that I am not ANTI public school either - that it might, in fact, end up being the option I choose for my own children. I've contended all along, it's not the choice for everyone - and I think it's dead wrong of parents who don't have the capacity to do it (emotionally, intellectually, or any other way) to even try. It can really damage a kid if you do it the wrong way.
But just as you get annoyed when PS gets a bad rap, so do I get annoyed when people buy into the rhetoric that homeschooling is just something that scary religious people do, or that no homeschooled child could ever learn calculus, or that if you don't send your kid to PS you must not care very much about their future.
Sometimes, I argue too hard in the opposite direction. But this is something I feel very strongly about and there is SO much misinformation out there about homeschooling.
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Post by tea4me on Jun 9, 2011 15:42:15 GMT -5
When the home-schooled students get to be in classes like advanced algebra or advanced biology or calculus, how can the parent teach it when they never had more than biology 1 or general math?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 15:42:55 GMT -5
Plenty of teachers don't care if the kids are late (and even more kids don't care about detention). I routinely skipped my classes or came in late, and I don't remember ever being disciplined for it. That last year in middle school, I could never get DS out of bed on time, no matter what I did. I'd always be racing the car to school, with DS struggling into his shoes and socks on the way. He was frequently late and I wish they would have disciplined him so he'd experience the consequences of his actions. They never did. And this was in a school district with a reputation so exalted that parents bought houses there specifically because of the school system and paid sky-high property taxes "for the children". And swasat, I would not say that homeschooling is the only alternative. My son's 4 years at NY Military Academy were nothing short of a miracle.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 15:45:28 GMT -5
When the home-schooled students get to be in classes like advanced algebra or advanced biology or calculus, how can the parent teach it when they never had more than biology 1 or general math? Community college, other parents (technically illegal, but so what), the non-schooling parent if they have the background. I assure you my actuary colleagues can teach their kids calculus even if Mom can't.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 9, 2011 15:45:49 GMT -5
I was a huge defender of public schools and very down on homeschoolers. I have changed my mind because public schools have changed their goals. Not their fault but it is what it is.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 15:48:03 GMT -5
When the home-schooled students get to be in classes like advanced algebra or advanced biology or calculus, how can the parent teach it when they never had more than biology 1 or general math?
I already answered this in Post #35, and Athena followed up as well. There are plenty of resources for homeschooled children now - far more than there were twenty years ago. Any good homeschooling parent knows better than to try and teach their child a subject about which they themselves know next to nothing. But they find someone else to do it instead - they don't just skip it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 15:48:48 GMT -5
Maybe we shouldn't call it homeschooling but "highly individualized education coordinator" or something like that? Because it seems like a lot of what homeschooling parents are doing these days are pulling together multiple resources in order to provide a more personalized education for their kids. You don't teach them calculus but you do set them up with a local study group or community college. Instead of the school providing the organizational structure the parent does it and it's more flexible because it's easier for a homeschooling parent to take their kid to the local science museum than it is for a whole school to go.
I think homeschooling gets a bad rap because a lot of crappy parents hide behind the concept. If executed correctly it could be pretty great for the kids.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 15:50:27 GMT -5
That last year in middle school, I could never get DS out of bed on time, no matter what I did. DH tied his sheets to his bed so his mom couldn't pull them off of him. He ended up getting detention after school and lunch duty every day at his private school because of his tardiness.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 9, 2011 15:51:00 GMT -5
#yeahthat#
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 9, 2011 15:51:43 GMT -5
oops
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 15:56:22 GMT -5
DH tied his sheets to his bed so his mom couldn't pull them off of him. I'm not opposed to a new term at this point. I personally like "self directed education," although that term is strongly linked to unschooling which apparently is code for "most permissive parenting style ever in the universe." But honestly, I think education should be about teaching kids to teach themselves. It should be about showing them how to take initiative in all situations in life, how to be active instead of passive, how to figure out what they want and then go get it. Yes, you need basic tools and basic education in place before these meta-concepts can really be explored - but a lot, a LOT of public schools just stop at the basic tools and basic education. The rest of it never even gets lip service, when the rest of it is just as important - and IMO, much MORE so!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 16:11:26 GMT -5
DH tied his sheets to his bed so his mom couldn't pull them off of him. He ended up getting detention after school and lunch duty every day at his private school because of his tardiness. At the military school, one of the penalties was working on the grounds- raking leaves, pulling weeds, etc. Can you imagine that? The poor babies had to do manual labor! It saved on maintenance costs, too. I suppose that wouldn't fly in the public schools, huh? Funny thing was, DS started getting up on time to be in uniform, out on the quadrangle, ready for inspection at 6:30 AM 5 days a week.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 9, 2011 16:12:22 GMT -5
I wish I'd have put DD in one. Those places straighten you out REAL fast and you get back a much more appreciative kid!!!
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Jun 9, 2011 16:23:53 GMT -5
Both my kids (now 23 and 25) went to public schools. My plan was as long as PS was working for them that's where they would be. We purposely bought (twice) homes in good school districts. And were very active as volunteers. I don't think the schools here have gone down hill any since we were in them. My kids were very bright. If I had home schooled I would have needed to use the alternate resources very early on. Our school district is very friendly to home schoolers. Kids can come for just the music program or just certain high school classes. I have only known one home school family very well. They were extremely critical of the PS, I don't know why. They were very committed, but I did wonder how they did curriculum's for 5 kids of different ages. Talking to the kids it did seem like the lack of structure bordered on goofing off sometimes. I also questioned their belief that everything from a PS school day could be taught in <3 hours at home. I haven't seen them in awhile, don't know how the kids came out. I know the one my daughter was close too seemed to have no ambition to go to college.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Jun 9, 2011 16:26:45 GMT -5
That last year in middle school, I could never get DS out of bed on time, no matter what I did. I'd always be racing the car to school, with DS struggling into his shoes and socks on the way. He was frequently late and I wish they would have disciplined him so he'd experience the consequences of his actions. They never did. I was listening to talk radio the other day and the radio host mentioned that he was called by the school because his son kept being late to his second class. So the radio host asked his son why that happened. The son said that he had problems with the lock on his locker. So the radio host said, ok, tomorrow I'm going to come to school after your first class. I'll have a bolt cutter. I will cut the lock off your locker. Then I will walk you to your second class. Since my schedule permits it, I will come every day to walk you to your second class. Lo and behold, the problem quickly solved itself. Never underestimate the effectiveness of proposed parental embarrassment!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 9, 2011 16:34:26 GMT -5
I also questioned their belief that everything from a PS school day could be taught in 3 hours at home. I don't know... it sounds about right to me. It seems like the school day is shorter than it used to be anyway. A chunk of it is lunch, recess, PE, attendance, etc. stuff that you wouldn't really have to teach at home. I'd guess there are maybe five hours of actual classroom instruction in a day, but not every kid is learning that whole time. The classes have to move at a pace that lets the slower kids keep up. If your kid picked things up quicker than average, it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to teach them in 3 hours what a slower kid learns in 5. Even if you had a slower kid, they'd probably pick things up quicker from personalized one on one instruction so they might be able to grasp the same amount of material in 3 hours that it's taking them all day to get at a public school.
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rileyoday
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Post by rileyoday on Jun 9, 2011 16:36:44 GMT -5
In the ninth grade my daughter insisted she wanted to be home schooled. Too much drama. She was an excellent student A average. She home schooled 10,11, 12th grades. DVDs and mailed in workbooks. cost 1 k each year. She worked part time as senior went away to college graduated ,married and has a good job in DC.
She was a beautiful girl and many thought I would not let her go to school.
She did her work everyday 9am -12 in a recliner and Pj's. She considered returning her senior year but knew she could not give up the recliner and Pj's.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Jun 9, 2011 16:36:47 GMT -5
but I did wonder how they did curriculum's for 5 kids of different ages I know this is a challenge for my SIL with four daughters. The two middle daughters are only 18 months different in age, so she tried teaching them the same history class at the same time. Then she discovered that the younger daughter was missing concepts and getting frustrated and feeling stupid. That 18 months difference was a real difference. So the girls have their own curriculum now. The four girls are all quite motivated and they make good use of education programs on the computer. A couple of weeks ago the 11 year old was showing me an app on their iPad in which she had to place countries of the world in their correct location within a continent outline. I'm sure I couldn't do that!
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Jun 9, 2011 16:38:57 GMT -5
Yes, their argument exactly. No recess, music, distracting kids to slow them down. I think their claim may have been even as little a 2 hrs.
ETA A couple of weeks ago the 11 year old was showing me an app on their iPad in which she had to place countries of the world in their correct location within a continent outline
OK, technology and home schooling not needed for this. My kids did this with a wood puzzle in grade school.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 9, 2011 16:40:04 GMT -5
I had lunch, recess, PE, etc when I was a kid. In fact, I had PR every day, and music every day, whereas now my kids only have 1 "special" per day which rotates - art, music, PE, etc. So, I'm pretty sure I had less time in the actual classroom than they do now.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 9, 2011 16:43:08 GMT -5
My kids have a half day every week, and I know for sure we didn't have that. They have PE everyday too, but I think it's only 30 minutes not an hour. We used to have one hour but it was only once a week.
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