zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 8:24:11 GMT -5
I agree. I have a friend who teaches math and actually makes it fun. This is high school math, btw. DS was good in math, didn't enjoy it but was good in it. DD is also good in math, just didn't pick up on it as fast as DS did so felt "stupid." One of the best things my friend did was teach DD that math can be fun and that she wasn't stupid for not getting it RIGHT AWAY. Online math was perfect because she could skip over what she knew and go over and over (and over) what concept she wasn't getting and then even talk-ONE on ONE-to the teacher to make extra sure she got it. Talk about the best thing for her. She excelled, felt good about herself, AND freakin' learned math.
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Jun 10, 2011 8:30:59 GMT -5
Schools do not receive a lump sum, they are paid by student attendance rates. Fewer students, less money.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 8:31:59 GMT -5
School seemed fun when I went. I learned, wasn't inundated with homework and wasn't tested out the wazoo. I feel sad for kids who are little and already hate school. I would, too, in their shoes.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 8:38:04 GMT -5
That is a problem with public or even private schools, they cannot tailor themselves for the needs of the one who is either really fast or really slow and not all the time in the same areas. It seemed that when I was in school, there was time in class to work on stuff and if you got it, you just kept on doing it and the teacher, when she wasn't helping the kids who didn't get it right away, would wander around and check your paper to see if you really did get it or not. Thank GOD I went to school when I did. My hats are off to the teachers of today. How they do it without going nuts is beyond me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 8:53:22 GMT -5
I was a product of the "tracking" system. It works well if used correctly and my school did. I can teach fast kids, slow kids, and medium kids, just not at the same time without shafting two thirds of them.
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Post by tea4me on Jun 10, 2011 9:03:23 GMT -5
Most parents have to work and single parents especially can't homeschool their kids. The single parents I know can homeschool their kids. They get so much government aid they don't have to work.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 9:12:31 GMT -5
Retired teachers (like me) have served their "time."
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Epiphany
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Post by Epiphany on Jun 10, 2011 9:19:55 GMT -5
I was home schooled most of my early education, went into public school from 8th grade up. Same with my sister.
Reasons my mom chose to home school: -Control over teaching at my speed. I was coming home from kindergarten and she was teaching me to read because they were still doing basics like abc's. -Home life. My dad worked second shift so I'd never see him except weekends. -Religious. Having a Christian basis in schooling -Everyone was doing it. Several neighbors and friends also home schooled so we had a large interactive group for resources, interaction etc.
My mom never had any schooling past high school and felt she couldn't offer us the wide range of curriculum in high school so that's why we went public then. Her and I consistently butted heads because I was and am a strong willed person and very defiant. I mostly remember the good times about schooling now. We'd have lots of real world experience like going to the grocery store for math class,etc. There were such good resources that teaching/learning was never a problem.
I'd go to public school once or twice a year to take the state standardized tests and always scored many grades higher. I have always had an "easy" time in school and I think that it is mostly because of being home schooled. It teaches you to be self-disciplined, self-motivated, etc. You learn to your level, not the level of everyone else. I'm glad my mom chose to do it for our family.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 9:24:38 GMT -5
I think we need to find a way to encourage more volunteers in the classrooms. I think highschool students looking for extra credit would be a great idea. Maybe give a tax break to retired teachers willing to volunteer? I don't know..... My dd's school has tons of volunteers. I think this is part of the problem with the generalizations of this topic. Most of the problems people are listing for PS don't really apply to dd's school. For that reason, we will use the public school system as long as it works for her. In a weird way, I think home-schooling is going to make the public schools worse. The parents who seem to be doing it are the same ones who would be volunteering at the schools if their children were there and pushing the school district to improve. Instead they are checking out. This also occurs when people move into the best school district. The people who are left are generally not the ones who are going to put a lot of effort into education. The few that will are exhausted from trying to change things alone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 9:44:57 GMT -5
In a weird way, I think home-schooling is going to make the public schools worse. The parents who seem to be doing it are the same ones who would be volunteering at the schools if their children were there and pushing the school district to improve. That is also the problem with charter schools. The big school district next door to me is attempting to experiment redrawing school attendance boundaries to even out the socio-economic differences between schools so that one school doesn't have 90% of the students on free lunches while the school next door has 10%. I think it's a great idea to break up concentrations of troubled kids and active parents but there is a ton of resistance to the idea. Parents who bought a home for a specific school are putting up a big fight. phenoix - charter school students also take money from public schools. They take 80% of the per student funding with them. My school district has recently said that unless charter schools can bring a substantial number of students from other districts they will not be approved because of the money issue.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 10, 2011 9:56:44 GMT -5
Pooks- I have to agree with you- my son's school doesn't have any of the problems that you all have listed. He went to a public elementary school- same school my nieces and nephews go to now. There are 8 public elementary schools in my town, one charter, one Catholic and one Lutheran School. Approximately 60,000 people. We had no issues when we lived here for elementary. We moved to So Cal toward the end of 2nd grade and he had no issues there. I will admit that we were lucky and he was placed in a GATES (special advanced class) for 3rd, 4th and 5th grade. 6th grade we were back in MN. His 6th grade was one school of just 6th graders that feed into the same high school (2 public HS) Teacher there was awesome. They had a math teacher that meet with kids before school if they wanted advanced learning and after school if they needed help. They had a Quiz Bowl team with coaches, sports, debate, student council, etc.
He has just finished 7th grade and it was a wonderful year for him. His Jr High is set up with what they call a "Trail System" Two Trails per grade and the Trail Teachers work as a Team. So each trail had one math teacher, one English, one, Science and one Geography. The two trails shared a health teacher, PE, Music, Home Ec (FACS) and Shop (GTT). Each trail has twice weekly meetings to discuss the kids and any problems they saw or stand outs. They had Knowledge Bowl Teams, advanced Math, Theater, Sports, Band, Choir, etc.
He truly enjoyed the school year and had positive things to say about his teachers. He would get frustrated some when other kids wouldn't have their work done in a timely manner and that was his only real complaint.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 10, 2011 10:00:13 GMT -5
As for bullying- they take that sh&t seriously at his school. In the first week of school a kid pushed another kid into a port-a-potty (outside during a fire drill) and that kid was suspended for 3 days. Another kid ran up to a girl and grabbed her ass- he was suspended for a week and warned that a second offense would result in expulsion.
The school didn't publicize names but they would have morning announcements that were very no-nonsense. "Students to remind you we have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to xyz. The punishment is x # days suspension, detention, etc"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 10:18:02 GMT -5
phenoix - charter school students also take money from public schools. They take 80% of the per student funding with them. My school district has recently said that unless charter schools can bring a substantial number of students from other districts they will not be approved because of the money issue. I love it. If you can't stack up against the competition, regulate them out of existence. And why should it be a problem if they lose 80% of the funding when they lose a student? While I agree that they don't realize a savings when one student exits the system, if they lose 100 to a charter school they should be able to cut staff and realize savings. They could probably do it by cutting out a couple of overpaid administrators.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jun 10, 2011 10:22:47 GMT -5
My dd's school has tons of volunteers. I think this is part of the problem with the generalizations of this topic. Most of the problems people are listing for PS don't really apply to dd's school. For that reason, we will use the public school system as long as it works for her. My reasons exactly for defending the PS. My son has only been in PS for a year (he just finished KG). But in that one year I had absolutely no complaints. There were so many volunteers and so many volunteering opportunities. I was maybe one of the worst parents there as I couldn't volunteer as much, because I work full time. He is an early reader, he was already ready fluently before he entered KG. So his KG teacher gave him more advanced reading books while she was teaching ABCs to other kids. He is also very advanced in math (can do double digit addition with carry over and double digit subtraction). She gave him separate worksheets and also sent some home for us to work with him. So it WAS kind of an individual learning plan. Not all PS are alike. Thats why we have the "good" and the "bad" school districts.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 10, 2011 10:49:58 GMT -5
"What will happen is that schools will close and teachers will get laid off as well as other staff. No union can protect you if there are no jobs as in kids to teach. That is called "voting with your feet.""
I don't think that homeschooling is going to close public schools any time soon. Back in 2007 only 3% of students were home schooled. While home schooling has grown, I highly doubt it will ever even come close to the majority.
I'm not sure why you're so against public schools Zib. The quality of public schools varies quite a bit from district to district. While in many large cities the public schools are bad, in the suburbs the public schools are generally pretty good. I'm fairly young (graduated from a public high school in 2003), and never had any of the problems you describe. Special Ed kids were kept in special ed classes, everyone spoke english, and taking AP classes was the norm. I still believe you can get a good education anywhere, even in a bad school district if you have the motivation and parental involvement.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 10, 2011 10:55:10 GMT -5
"One of the points that I haven't seen yet is the expense of homeschooling. Although it's not necessary that a parent stays home to homeschool, that seems to be the case the majority of the time, so you are already looking at households that can afford to be 1-income. Then, if you provide a program like petunia, with science teachers, art teachers, music teachers, etc., I would think that is a program that most people cannot afford to provide. So at that point, this also seems to be a monetary divide."
I agree. While it's not strictly necessary to homeschool and be a one income family, that's the case the majority of the time. Most parents can't afford to homeschool even if they wanted to, not just for monetary reasons but the termprament of the child and adult, as well as the qualifications of the adult.
Sending your kid community college, hiring guest speakers, traveling, going to museums on top of having only one income earner, it sounds like you need to be fairly affluant to do homeschooling properly.
I feel very uncomfortable with parents with just a high school diploma teaching kids. To me that's just the blind leading the blind.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 11:03:44 GMT -5
While in many large cities the public schools are bad, in the suburbs the public schools are generally pretty good. I'm fairly young (graduated from a public high school in 2003), and never had any of the problems you describe. Special Ed kids were kept in special ed classes, everyone spoke english, and taking AP classes was the norm. A lot of families can't afford to live in a good school district. One of the districts here has ESL learners in 60 odd different languages. "Mainstreaming" rather than special ed has become the norm in many school districts too. One of my friends taught a regular third grade class - she had children with IQ's in the 60's who were illiterate and pooped on the floor. While I agree that they don't realize a savings when one student exits the system, if they lose 100 to a charter school they should be able to cut staff and realize savings. Then they would have to tangle with the teachers union . . . and the parents who won't shut a school even though there are 5 kids in it and the ceiling is falling in.
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Epiphany
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Post by Epiphany on Jun 10, 2011 11:09:01 GMT -5
I think like many things on YM, living on one income is a choice. My parents were very low middle income and made it work. We lived in a smaller house (2 bedroom, 1 bath), had only 1 car, basic cable only, rarely if ever ate out (special treat only) and never had the latest greatest. We were allowed to be in one activity outside of a church program for kids (AWANA, it's like cubscouts for church). We only went to disney once in my childhood and visited family and camped for vacations. I had a WONDERFUL childhood with loving parents who didn't do it all right but sure did have their priorities straight.
What we didn't have: separate bedrooms and bathrooms for each kid, cell phones, long list of expensive activities/sports requiring travel, etc., two cars, eating out a lot, cell phone plans (obviously), tons of games for the gaming system. We lived/live in a LOCL area.
And someone with a high school diploma should beable to teach elementary aged subjects especially following books. We had saxton math but don't remember the rest. Not a ton of money on books especially when we could pass down from other families.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 10, 2011 11:17:19 GMT -5
"Not all PS are alike. Thats why we have the "good" and the "bad" school districts."
Yes. That’s one of the things that drive this discussion forward and rub people the wrong way is the generalizations. Some thing that homeschooling equals a social outcast who’s parents let them watch tv all day and others think that public school is full of kids who can’t read, are violent, can’t speak English, and have learning disabilities.
The truth has (and always will be) it depends on the homeschooling situation and the public school. Some parents are very involved and can provide their kids with an excellent education, while others are really bad at homeschooling and doing their kids a disservice. Some public schools are wonderful, just as good as any private school, while others are dismal.
The public school I went to had 90%+ go to college, someone dropping out was so rare that the school newspaper ran a story on it, any violence (like fighting or bullying) was met with immediate suspension, everyone spoke English (except in forign language classes), special ed kids were kept in special ed classes, and a wide variety of AP and advanced courses were offered. I was able to take electives most students never got to take, like meteorology, astronomy, and computer science. My biology teacher freshmen year was fired for looking at porn.
But I realize that not every school district is like the one I went to, and some are terrible.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 10, 2011 11:39:08 GMT -5
First of all, you CAN choose your classes and teachers to some extent in public school. It's called electives and I took plenty of them. Plus I'm not sure why you're knocking not being able to choose your teachers, it's not like homeschooled kids can choose their teachers either. If mom is a bad teacher it's not like little Johnny can fire her any easier than a poor performing public school teacher. It's true you can't choose your classmates but you also can't choose your classmates (if any) in a homeschool enviornment either, or how disruptive they are. As far as minimimal individual attention God forbid that we teach kids to be independent learners and not to rely on teachers all the time.
Well, my preconceived notions are based on my experience with PS. The thing about my experience was that it wasn't bad at all, based on any reasonable standard. I got A's and B's throughout my entire school experience (often straight A's) so grades weren't a problem. I had friends, I had good teachers, I participated in extracurriculars and I got into every college I applied to.
So what does it say that when I look back on my high school experience, it feels totally empty to me? I feel like I learned nothing, although that's probably a bit harsh. Certainly I learned academic skills but to be honest, I was one of those kids who skates through school with minimal effort (rarely did I study more than an hour a week for those A's and B's) and I picked up my REAL study skills in my last semester of college.
I was rarely challenged. It never even came up. I was in a good school and performing well, so whether or not I was being challenged seemed to be beside the point for everyone. The point is, I could have done better. It never occurred to me even to try. And I'm not talking about better grades.
If I had been taught to challenge myself, to take responsibility for my education, to choose what I wanted to study and how to learn it most effectively... I feel like I would have come much farther much faster. It wouldn't have prepared me much better for college, because college is basically like high school - if you're generally academic minded, you'll do fine in both. But it would have brought me light-years farther in the adult skills of thinking for myself and choosing for myself how to approach things.
I don't know how much sense this makes - I'm still pretty sick and not feeling all that coherent.
But basically, my point is that for me, PS was a huge success. I'm like the poster child for a successful PS education, and I STILL feel like there were huge gaps in my education. They're not gaps I would have necessarily EXPECTED PS systems to fulfill because as far as I'm concerned, they did their job with me and did it well. I just feel like in an independent, student-driven environment, I could have done way better.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 11:40:53 GMT -5
DS graduated in 2001 and it was pretty good as far as no mainstreaming, no ESL, and no total dummies once you got into middle school. DD graduated in 2007 and it was like a totally different school district. It can turn around that fast.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 10, 2011 11:40:58 GMT -5
Firebird, while I agree with all of the points you outlined above, I think you are also confusing the amount of "choice" that comes with age and maturity with the amount of "choice" that comes in homeschooling vs. public school. Obviously we have more choice in "the real world" but a lot of that is because "in the real world" we are adults.
Very, very good point. But the thing is, I honestly think kids should be trained for how the adult world works as early and as effectively as possible. Yes, of course you should still allow children to be children - but one of the things my parents did with me that I am more grateful for every day was teach me how to be very independent and responsible from an early age. It made a huge difference in my development. And I plan to do the same with my own children.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 10, 2011 11:42:38 GMT -5
I would also respectfully argue that while you have to be "reactive" and deal the hand you are dealt in public school, those skills are incredibly valuable in real life. Would I love to be more proactive and choose everything about my life? Absolutely. In reality, there are always going to be things in real life that you can't control and do have to react to. In fact, I would argue that in general, you need to learn to be reactive to situations before you can be proactive.
That's an interesting point. I'll have to think about that one, but you make good sense. After all, kids do learn by reacting first (stove hot, don't touch stove being the most overused example). It's totally possible that this is a key part of development that I'm basically dismissing, and that's not right.
Thanks for the thought-provoking response.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 10, 2011 11:44:01 GMT -5
<< When you compare parents of home schooled kids to the general population, of course home schooled kids will look better, but compare it to kids in public school with the same level of parental involvement and you'll likely find that the outcomes are similar. >>
Great. We don't need to regulate it then.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 10, 2011 11:44:35 GMT -5
As for bullying- they take that sh&t seriously at his school. In the first week of school a kid pushed another kid into a port-a-potty (outside during a fire drill) and that kid was suspended for 3 days. Another kid ran up to a girl and grabbed her ass- he was suspended for a week and warned that a second offense would result in expulsion.
THAT IS SO AWESOME! I am officially impressed with your son's school, Sheila. They are progressive in more ways than one. Oh, I'm so glad to hear that this nonsense is FINALLY being sorted out, at least in some circles.
This is so great to hear.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2011 11:46:58 GMT -5
I'm like you Firebird in terms of how I did in school. My thought process about PS though it isn't ABOUT me getting the bestest most awesomest personalized education. PS is there to make sure every child, including me, gets a basic education. If I get more than that, that is awesome, but it isn't there to personally cater to me.
If I want that I'll do what the rich have always done and seek it out and pay for it. Just like the overschooling thread people with the money have ALWAYS had access to the bestest and betterest stuff for their kids.
PS was to make sure evey child at least learned the basics. For most of history most of the general populace could barely write their own names, let alone read or do math. PS ensures every child can at least read and do math.
The rest is up to me as a parent. If I want DD to have more than the basics then it is my job to step up to the plate and see it out for her. To expect public schools, IMO, to challenge her in the way that I personally think she needs to be challenged isn't their job.
That's just me though. I expect DD to be educated in public schools but I just think people are starting to get delusions of granduer over how much exactly they expect the public school system to do. PS is not my daughter's parent. It's my job to make sure she grows into a, hopefully, fairly well rounded adult.
If I can do that thru homeschooling/private schooling/unschooling/charter schooling/overschooling then I can, but I am not going to bitch that the public schools can't do my job for me.
Before someone jumps on me I DO think public education is lacking in some of the basics, like science for instance and there does need to be some restructuring, but in general I think public education does it's job, IMO, just fine. It's up to me as the PARENT to do the rest.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 10, 2011 11:52:41 GMT -5
<< One of the points that I haven't seen yet is the expense of homeschooling. Although it's not necessary that a parent stays home to homeschool, that seems to be the case the majority of the time, so you are already looking at households that can afford to be 1-income. Then, if you provide a program like petunia, with science teachers, art teachers, music teachers, etc., I would think that is a program that most people cannot afford to provide. >>
Some of those classes I paid for, some were completely free, mainly the ones with credentialed teachers. You merely enroll in a homeschool based charter school and you have your pick, along with textbooks and supplies. Homeschool based charter schools are HUGE in my area.
As it happened, I was a stay at home mom for 7 years and our homeschooling years were during that time. I agree it would be quite challenging to homeschool and work, though I did meet a few families who were doing it.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 10, 2011 12:08:58 GMT -5
I watched M-TV's "Real Life - I'm homeschooled" and one of the guys had 2 brothers, and a single mom who was a nurse - AND she homeschooled. Now, there is a lady with principles and energy. It appeared as if "school" took place on her schedule. So, if she worked the day shift, they did lessons at night. They really didn't give too much detail about that, it wasn't the focus of the story.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 10, 2011 12:10:55 GMT -5
<< I think parents should be required to be involved more. Not too long ago, in Detroit, they were talking about sending parents to jail if they didn't show up for parent teacher conferences. I feel so bad for kids that have uninvolved parents who couldn't care less. >>
Me too.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 10, 2011 12:13:24 GMT -5
The rest is up to me as a parent. If I want DD to have more than the basics then it is my job to step up to the plate and see it out for her. To expect public schools, IMO, to challenge her in the way that I personally think she needs to be challenged isn't their job.
Exactly. BUT I think the danger is getting so caught up in the rigor of PS that challenging your kid outside of class kind of falls by the wayside. At least, it was definitely that way for me. In elementary school, I could read extra books and do educational things with my parents - by high school, I was so bogged down in extracurriculars that extra things ON TOP of those did not appeal at all.
All this is just my opinion from my experience.
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