hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 9, 2011 17:22:34 GMT -5
"You may not get to choose your coworkers, but I bet they're not allowed to talk during meetings, or distract you by flinging spitballs at your computer. "
I'll take this bet if we can substitute "spitballs" for "paper clips" or "rubber bands"!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 17:55:48 GMT -5
Fair enough, Hoops
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 18:22:53 GMT -5
<< I have no children. I am curious why people chose to home-school. >> Why do people do anything? My daughter homeschooled for 3rd, 4th, and 5th grades. It was her idea, we tried it and found it to be a fabulous lifestyle for us. Homeschooling isn't necessarily a comdemnation of other types of schooling, it is merely one option. Some people choose it, some people don't.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 9, 2011 18:45:03 GMT -5
Homeschooling isn't necessarily a comdemnation of other types of schooling, it is merely one option. Some people choose it, some people don't.
It would be a much nicer world (though granted, a less interesting one) if we could simply leave it at that. Alas, alack.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 18:45:23 GMT -5
<< School may not exactly be the real world, but I think it's a lot closer to the real world than homeschooling is. For starters, the schedule is stricter. (Yes, I know homeschoolers have schedules, but if Susie is late coming downstairs because she missed her alarm, her mom probably isn't going to give her a detention). >>
You're assuming that homeschoolers spend all day at home. I don't doubt there are some who do it that way, but that was certainly not my family's experience, nor of the hundreds of kids participating in some of the things mine did. Our schedule was not "be at the kitchen table by x o'clock".
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 9, 2011 18:59:44 GMT -5
I think it's a great option for some families, but I also think it should be more regulated. I know too many lazy parents who are content to let their kids sleep til noon, watch Veggietales and Sponge Bob all afternoon and call it "homeschooling". It gives a bad name to true homeschooling families. At the very least, some type of curriculum plan and grade-level testing once a year or two to make sure some learning is actually taking place. Just the opinion of a childless graduate of public school who wishes she'd gone to private (or at least to a high school offering more than 2 AP classes) but is kind of glad her mom didn't homeschool her... because one of us would probably not be here
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 19:10:13 GMT -5
<< When the home-schooled students get to be in classes like advanced algebra or advanced biology or calculus, how can the parent teach it when they never had more than biology 1 or general math? >>
There are many options. Speaking for myself, I had in the back of my mind that if we continued that long, we would use the local junior college. In my state, kids as young as 14 can take courses for their learning only. At age 16, they can receive college credit.
During our homeschooling years (and my daughter is 20 now, so my memory is a bit rusty) my daughter took the following classes, none of which were taught by me:
1. general science (taught by credentialed teacher) 2. astronomy (taught by credentialed teacher) 3. creative writing (taught by credentialed teacher) 4. conversational spanish 5. drawing (taught by real local artist) 6. ceramics (taught by real local artist) 7. music appreciation (taught by credentialed teacher) 8. flute (taught by credentialed teacher) 9. general p.e. (taught by credentialed teacher) 10. gymnastics (local gym) 11. various art classes (local parks & rec dept) 12. various courses at local junior college "college for kids", mostly art and science topics
Additionally, during 4th and 5th grades, we joined a support group for social studies/history. We would have an activity day once every 3 to 4 weeks, typically with guest speakers on various topics we were studying. Homework assignments would be given, due at the next activity day. We would do group field trips together, especially when we were studying our state's history, to places of historical interest. These groups were run by, you guessed it, credentialed teachers.
Just so you know, the science courses were held in classroom science labs, with , test tubes, microscopes, etc.
Most of these I have listed were regular, on-going, meet once or twice a week for the whole school year type classes.
There were many other classes we could have taken too but didn't, because there are only so many hours in a day, ya know?
I am certain there are some things I have failed to mention, but aren't coming to mind right now.
All of this was in addition to the work we did together at home.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 19:12:41 GMT -5
<< At the very least, some type of curriculum plan and grade-level testing once a year or two to make sure some learning is actually taking place. >>
For what purpose? If they fail to meet standards, then what?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 20:29:40 GMT -5
For what purpose? If they fail to meet standards, then what? The parents can be ordered to put the kid in an accredited school or face truancy charges. They've proven they can't teach their kids, for whatever reason. Why should we let it get to the point that you've got an 18-year old who can't read well enough to hold down a job and doesn't know enough math to keep track of his/her spending?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 9, 2011 20:42:10 GMT -5
Exactly what Athena said. What is the point of truancy laws if anyone can keep their kids out of school and not teach them anything? There have to be some standards in place. Not necessarily sitting-at-the-kitchen-table-at-8-am standards, but proving that they're learning at an appropriate level so that they can eventually become a productive member of society
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 9, 2011 20:44:47 GMT -5
That's kind of the point, though... public school standards are not exceptionally high, so if a home-schooled kid can't pass his or her grade level, barring a learning disorder, there's probably either 1) not much teaching going on; or 2) wildly divergent teaching/learning styles that should be addressed.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Jun 9, 2011 21:05:30 GMT -5
It looks like my state, Oregon, does require testing. www.hslda.org/laws/analysis/Oregon.pdfParents must choose one of the comprehensive examinations approved by the State Board of Education which must be administered in grades 3, 5, 8, and 10 by “a qualified neutral person,” as defined by the State Board of Education. And basically you get three chances to get above the 15th percentile or you have to get a certified teacher or send the child back to school. 15th percentile is pretty minimal.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 21:23:51 GMT -5
<< The parents can be ordered to put the kid in an accredited school or face truancy charges. >>
Does the accredited school guarantee that its students will meet standards? No public school offers any such guarantee, perhaps there are some private ones which do?
<< They've proven they can't teach their kids, for whatever reason. Why should we let it get to the point that you've got an 18-year old who can't read well enough to hold down a job and doesn't know enough math to keep track of his/her spending? >>
There are plenty of public schools with graduates who can't read, do basic math, or keep track of their spending. Should we say they have proven they can't teach their students and close them down? If not, why not? Why is a parent, who is not in the business of education nor in charge of other people's children, be held to a higher standard?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 9, 2011 21:34:04 GMT -5
I think in the states that do utilize testing (like Lynne posted) the homeschool students are being held to the same standard as the public school students, if not an even lower one... fifteenth percentile is no great feat.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 21:55:43 GMT -5
<< I think in the states that do utilize testing (like Lynne posted) the homeschool students are being held to the same standard as the public school students, if not an even lower one... fifteenth percentile is no great feat. >>
If they were held to the same standards, then schools would be required to send the lowest 15% of all students off to some other school.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 22:08:44 GMT -5
The big city next door to us only graduates 50% of it's high school students on time. It only graduates 60% of students overall.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 22:18:05 GMT -5
<< In case you haven't noticed, we're at that point with many of our kids who attended public schools. >>
Exactly.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 22:42:08 GMT -5
<< That's kind of the point, though... public school standards are not exceptionally high, so if a home-schooled kid can't pass his or her grade level, barring a learning disorder, there's probably either 1) not much teaching going on; or 2) wildly divergent teaching/learning styles that should be addressed. >>
I think the point is, since public school standards are not exceptionally high, and since public schools very often do not meet their own standards, why should homeschoolers have those standards thrust upon them? Let the state prove that its system works, then we'll talk.
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blackcard
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Post by blackcard on Jun 9, 2011 22:48:48 GMT -5
Some kids just don't want to graduate. Because they don't want to go to school. In some ethnic circles it is looked at as trying to be "like whitey." The advantages or disadvantages of home schooling will come to light once they sit for the SAT or ACT for college admissions, and see how well they score.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 9, 2011 23:24:16 GMT -5
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 10, 2011 2:10:49 GMT -5
"Two of the schools in our area are losing so many students to home schooling that they can't afford to stay open."
That doesn't make any sense. Public schools are funded by property taxes. If you take your kids out of a public school you still pay property taxes that go to the public schools. So I really doubt public schools are in danger of closing. If anything it should be helping the schools financially since you're still paying them but they don't have to pay money to educate your kid.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 10, 2011 2:12:25 GMT -5
Anyway, homeschooling isn't something I'd want to do if I ever had kids. I went to public school and turned out okay and had an overall positive experience.
Only way I'd ever consider homeschooling is if the local public school sucked and there weren't any good private schools in the area I could afford.
I don't think homeschooling is a superior way of teaching kids as some claim. By definition home schooled kids have parents that care about their education and work to help them succeed. Those same kids would likely have succeeded in public or private school because of that same parental involvement. When you compare parents of home schooled kids to the general population, of course home schooled kids will look better, but compare it to kids in public school with the same level of parental involvement and you'll likely find that the outcomes are similar.
Bottom line is that being involved and responsive to your child's education is more important than the schooling method.
Plus homeschooling is not and will never be for everyone. Most parents have to work and single parents especially can't homeschool their kids.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 10, 2011 2:36:22 GMT -5
"Let's see...
Public School: -No choices over your classes or their subject matter. -No choices over your teachers. -No choices over who goes to your classes or how much of a distraction they are. -Bullying, teasing, pressure of "dressing right" and fitting in, cliques. -Minimal individual attention, especially if you are way behind OR way ahead."
Firebird, you seem to have preconceived notions about public school and homeschooling, and that homeschooling is supiror to public schooling.
First of all, you CAN choose your classes and teachers to some extent in public school. It's called electives and I took plenty of them. Plus I'm not sure why you're knocking not being able to choose your teachers, it's not like homeschooled kids can choose their teachers either. If mom is a bad teacher it's not like little Johnny can fire her any easier than a poor performing public school teacher. It's true you can't choose your classmates but you also can't choose your classmates (if any) in a homeschool enviornment either, or how disruptive they are. As far as minimimal individual attention God forbid that we teach kids to be independent learners and not to rely on teachers all the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 6:01:46 GMT -5
All the homeschooled kids I knew were VERY smart. One girl went to a prestigious private college and is now a middle manager at Microsoft at 25/26.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 6:06:46 GMT -5
Phoenix (and others), my town had a homeschooling group. One parent taught like 5-6 kids, so even if one kid had both parents working they could still be homeschooled.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 6:56:38 GMT -5
"Two of the schools in our area are losing so many students to home schooling that they can't afford to stay open." That doesn't make any sense. Public schools are funded by property taxes. If you take your kids out of a public school you still pay property taxes that go to the public schools. My understanding is that some of the funds they get are fron the state and are on a per-student basis, so there is some revenue decrease when there are fewer students. Also, if the students being funneled out into home schooling and private schools are smarter, have more involved parents and fewer problems at home and fewer special needs, it takes more resources to educate the remaining ones. I just remembered an anecdote I read in a bio of Thomas Edison when I was a kid. His teacher thought he was stupid because he asked too many questions. His mother took him out of school and taught him at home. (Which is a good example of how someone with probably a modest education herself did fine with home schooling.)
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 7:40:18 GMT -5
What will happen is that schools will close and teachers will get laid off as well as other staff. No union can protect you if there are no jobs as in kids to teach. That is called "voting with your feet." I do not like what is happening with public schools, mainstreaming kids who disrupt so the parents can say their precious darling is perfect not handicapped in some way instead of putting them with a teacher trained to deal with their childs disability who actually CHOSE to teach special needs children. But its cheaper for the school system to that child into a gen ed classroom so even if parents wanted to do right by their child, they might have to fight the school system and its cheapness. I don't want my kid in a class where the majority speak another language, where there are continual behavior problems, and where the kids are so stupid due to whatever reason, that the first 3 months of every school year is spent on remedial work. THAT is not fair to my child but your regular child has no rights at all to a disruption free education. ALL the rights are for a few not the many. The squeaky wheel gets greased. I am sure there are still school districts that are not inundated with problem children, DF claims we are living in one. Don't know and don't care since my kids are no longer in public schools. His step-grandchildren are and their parents seem satisfied but they are very uninvolved parents so I don't go by that. MY grandchildren will go to private schools because I will pay for them to. By that time, I will be able to afford it!!!!
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 10, 2011 7:45:03 GMT -5
One of the points that I haven't seen yet is the expense of homeschooling. Although it's not necessary that a parent stays home to homeschool, that seems to be the case the majority of the time, so you are already looking at households that can afford to be 1-income. Then, if you provide a program like petunia, with science teachers, art teachers, music teachers, etc., I would think that is a program that most people cannot afford to provide. So at that point, this also seems to be a monetary divide. I generally don't care how you educate your kid, but I don't know that I would homeschool my (hypothetical) children. I think my biggest problem with homeschooling is when it is done as a way to keep kids from seeing the world. When you set out to shield your kid from the world at large, I think you do them a disservice.
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Jun 10, 2011 7:47:38 GMT -5
I'm NOT saying homeschooled kids can't deal with the real world - but I think that school is a lot closer to the real world than being homeschooled.Let's see... Public School: -No choices over your classes or their subject matter. -No choices over your teachers. -No choices over who goes to your classes or how much of a distraction they are. -Bullying, teasing, pressure of "dressing right" and fitting in, cliques. -Minimal individual attention, especially if you are way behind OR way ahead. Homeschool (ideally): -Wide variety of subjects, tailored to the students' individual interests and strengths. -Unlimited individual attention. -Ability to instantly spot problem subjects, slow down and take things at own pace. -Choice of company and activities. -More control over schedule. -More personal responsibility for one's education. Real Life: -Choose your job. -Choose where you live. -Choose where you work. -Choose your friends, your partner, your religion, your social life. -If you want to learn about a subject, you take the initiative to learn it yourself. -Deal with people treating you badly by removing yourself from the situation or by confronting them directly. -Dress how you like, eat how you like, worship how you like... One of these is not like the other. Homeschooling is NOT perfect, but if done properly (I recognize that's a huge caveat) it should be a much more accurate mirror of real life than public school. Public school has almost no parallels in the real world. It's vastly different even from college. The biggest difference in my mind? Public school is designed to keep you in reactive mode for as long as possible. Think about it - can you name one thing that we do in public school which is NOT a reaction to someone telling us to do it? I can't. Yet in the real world, that's not how things work at all. Adults have to be PROactive about things that matter to them. Homeschooling is a much better conduit for teaching a kid how to be proactive and responsible for their own choices than public school. IMHO. Firebird, while I agree with all of the points you outlined above, I think you are also confusing the amount of "choice" that comes with age and maturity with the amount of "choice" that comes in homeschooling vs. public school. Obviously we have more choice in "the real world" but a lot of that is because "in the real world" we are adults. I would also respectfully argue that while you have to be "reactive" and deal the hand you are dealt in public school, those skills are incredibly valuable in real life. Would I love to be more proactive and choose everything about my life? Absolutely. In reality, there are always going to be things in real life that you can't control and do have to react to. In fact, I would argue that in general, you need to learn to be reactive to situations before you can be proactive. Believe me, I totally understand where you're going - and in a perfect world, I agree with you. But my job as a parent is to parent in this world, not a theoretical perfect one.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2011 8:05:38 GMT -5
There's a happy medium and I was glad DD was able to take advantage of it. She "virtual schooled"(online) for some subjects and LOVED it. Trust me, you cannot dawdle with those classes as those teachers are on you like flies on poop. She also went to school for chorus, and chemistry/lab. It isn't free/cheap to homeschool correctly. I guess you could say that in the summers, on weekends, and after school, good parents homeschool. Both kids learned math skills by computing the tip to leave the server, if they got it right, they got the change. I changed the percentage from time to time so they were doing this in elem. I'm sure parents on here do plenty of the same things. I made them read to me while I prepared dinner. Told them I read to them when they were small and now it was their turn to read to me. That way I knew what their reading skills were. I also bought the workbooks from KMart for over the summer and they thought they were fun. After each workbook we got ice cream. This was in addition to regular school. But when my kids starting to complain that the first 6 then 10 then more weeks of school was spent reviewing what was learned last year, I knew there was a problem.
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