Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 25, 2011 16:58:36 GMT -5
Move is not a choice, whether it be to another state or another country. Telling someone to just move is ridiculous. This is why I see no difference between a state mandate & federal mandate, both tell people they can just move if they don't like it.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 25, 2011 17:02:19 GMT -5
Actually put to a vote.
Does the Federal Government have the Authority to dictate American Health Coverage.
__ Yes __ No
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 25, 2011 17:22:13 GMT -5
Health coverage is a rouse. They want to control the money- they want to control YOU. Once they control your access to care, then if you don't do x, y, and z that the government wants you to do-- guess what? You die. It's the ultimate lever. And no, that's not an exaggeration- it's the whole purpose of statism: control, control, control. And confiscate.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 25, 2011 17:34:08 GMT -5
Yes, it is.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 25, 2011 17:36:30 GMT -5
Health coverage is a rouse. They want to control the money- they want to control YOU. Once they control your access to care, then if you don't do x, y, and z that the government wants you to do-- guess what? You die. It's the ultimate lever. And no, that's not an exaggeration- it's the whole purpose of statism: control, control, control. And confiscate. Sure Paul, people are dropping dead left and right in Canada and other single payer countries/ UHC countries due to the horrendous government control and crushing Socialism. The horror. The horror. (Actually they are paying less for better care for everyone but that's beside the point when dealing with an ideologue that would rather pay 10X for their care as long as some poor sod doesn't get a check up on their dime)
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 25, 2011 17:40:32 GMT -5
Health coverage is a rouse. They want to control the money- they want to control YOU. Once they control your access to care, then if you don't do x, y, and z that the government wants you to do-- guess what? You die. It's the ultimate lever. And no, that's not an exaggeration- it's the whole purpose of statism: control, control, control. And confiscate. Sure Paul, people are dropping dead left and right in Canada and other single payer countries/ UHC countries due to the horrendous government control and crushing Socialism. The horror. The horror. (Actually they are paying less for better care for everyone but that's beside the point when dealing with an ideologue that would rather pay 10X for their care as long as some poor sod doesn't get a check up on their dime) www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/02/24/canada.health.dispute/index.htmlSeems it happens evt1, whether you choose to believe it or not. ETA: If it wasn't for us the US this child would be dead.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 25, 2011 17:44:00 GMT -5
The real reason "stat-ism" is mentioned on right wing pundits shows. To instill irrational fear. Ok, I change my vote. In certain parts of Florida lithium should be added to the water until paranoia levels decrease.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 25, 2011 17:48:15 GMT -5
The real reason "stat-ism" is mentioned on right wing pundits shows. To instill irrational fear. Ok, I change my vote. In certain parts of Florida lithium should be added to the water until paranoia levels decrease. LMAO!
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on May 25, 2011 17:58:16 GMT -5
I don't understand how cons can miss the fact it is they who hate and rage....ridiculously obvious- but they miss everything and believe pure BS. Liberals are about hope, disappointment, disbelief, and pity. ;D
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on May 25, 2011 18:24:59 GMT -5
#64 "Family spokesperson Sam Sansalone said the hospital initially agreed to accept the transfer. He said he has since received an email indicating the request has been denied. Sansalone forwarded an email from the Detroit hospital that he said explains that after a review of Joseph's records by neurological and intensive care physicians, "we cannot offer Joseph anything that he has not been provided already during his current admission by his current clinical care team ... transfer to our facility will not provide him or the family any benefit." So you just lie about this link? The child IS dead and always was....) Pfffft!! Typical Pub "argument"!
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 25, 2011 18:29:43 GMT -5
For one - my health insurance is no longer going to be tied to my job. I will be able to purchase health insurance from a private insurer without being rejected for pre-existing conditions. It also helps to make insurance more affordable for the middle/lower class, which will help me immensily.Health insurance will be more expensive. Nothing in the healthcare bill does a single thing to reduce costs. I believe they were hoping for that but the realities seem to be, that it may not , yet the realities may be , that health care increases may be mitigated by obama care, not rise as much. The point was that the increases in health care , with out anything being done was to become unsusstainable according to all those experts who testyfied if I remember correctly from my watching the hearings.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 25, 2011 18:38:40 GMT -5
#64 "Family spokesperson Sam Sansalone said the hospital initially agreed to accept the transfer. He said he has since received an email indicating the request has been denied. Sansalone forwarded an email from the Detroit hospital that he said explains that after a review of Joseph's records by neurological and intensive care physicians, "we cannot offer Joseph anything that he has not been provided already during his current admission by his current clinical care team ... transfer to our facility will not provide him or the family any benefit." So you just lie about this link? The child IS dead and always was....) Pfffft!! Typical Pub "argument"! What did you expect- after scouring the internet for the UHC or single payer death panels all they can come up with is a few stories involving a trip or two to the US for treatment missing relevant facts- meanwhile the rest of the population enjoys healthcare coverage for life. Sure it isn't perfect, but it beats the hell out of what we have here (and it costs less).
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 25, 2011 18:49:40 GMT -5
Sure Paul, people are dropping dead left and right in Canada and other single payer countries/ UHC countries due to the horrendous government control and crushing Socialism. The horror. The horror. (Actually they are paying less for better care for everyone but that's beside the point when dealing with an ideologue that would rather pay 10X for their care as long as some poor sod doesn't get a check up on their dime) www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/02/24/canada.health.dispute/index.htmlSeems it happens evt1, whether you choose to believe it or not. ETA: If it wasn't for us the US this child would be dead. you do realize that "persistent vegetative state" means no hope of recovery, right?
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 25, 2011 18:53:04 GMT -5
So now I am a liar? I want proof, Baby Joesph came to the United States from canada to receive treatment that the UHC in Canada would not cover. The family flew back to their home in Windsor, Ontario, on Thursday, one month after receiving a tracheotomy at a children's hospital in St. Louis. www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/04/21/baby.joseph.goes.home/index.htmlThe last update I can find is April 29th with baby Joesph doing okay back home. So will I receive an apology? If you call me a liar you better damn well prove what you say.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 25, 2011 19:19:39 GMT -5
I am sure all of our wonderful insurance companies would have ignored his doctors and sprung for the treatment. BTW I am sure our wonderful insurance companies would have paid for this as well:
"After arriving in Canada on Thursday morning, the child was examined by a team of physicians at the Windsor Regional Hospital to ensure no complications or infections resulted from the flight. According to the hospital's president and CEO, David Musyj, the Maraachlis are prepared to take care of their son, but they also will be provided round-the-clock nursing care in their home. A team of community care nurses will alternate shifts staying with the family. They will take the lead on daily requirements, to include cleaning the trach, tube feeding and administering anti-anxiety medications. The nurses will also monitor his heart rate, suction secretions that build up in his lungs and provide oxygen as needed.
According to Musyj, the 24-hour nursing care, medications and all the equipment are provided free of charge under Canada's universal health care system.
Try that shit with Cigna- your ass is not getting round the clock nurses at your house. In the USA the kid is going to die in the ER and the parents are going bankrupt. Get a clue.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on May 25, 2011 19:47:42 GMT -5
Sorry ;D LOL!! Your LINK actually said so, said nothing about the dead kid coming to the USA. Waste of money, just because dittoheads went nuts, another Terry Sciavo waste of time...
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 25, 2011 19:56:26 GMT -5
I am sure all of our wonderful insurance companies would have ignored his doctors and sprung for the treatment. BTW I am sure our wonderful insurance companies would have paid for this as well: "After arriving in Canada on Thursday morning, the child was examined by a team of physicians at the Windsor Regional Hospital to ensure no complications or infections resulted from the flight. According to the hospital's president and CEO, David Musyj, the Maraachlis are prepared to take care of their son, but they also will be provided round-the-clock nursing care in their home.A team of community care nurses will alternate shifts staying with the family. They will take the lead on daily requirements, to include cleaning the trach, tube feeding and administering anti-anxiety medications. The nurses will also monitor his heart rate, suction secretions that build up in his lungs and provide oxygen as needed.
According to Musyj, the 24-hour nursing care, medications and all the equipment are provided free of charge under Canada's universal health care system.Try that shit with Cigna- your ass is not getting round the clock nurses at your house. In the USA the kid is going to die in the ER and the parents are going bankrupt. Get a clue. So you turn this against an Insurance company, when the government refused to pay for treatment. It's exactly the same. Now since the procedure was done elsewhere and paid for by private individuals the child has a chance to survive and is offered government benefits, what do people without those options do?
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on May 25, 2011 20:14:02 GMT -5
The kid is DEAD!!
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 25, 2011 20:14:18 GMT -5
So now I am a liar? I want proof, Baby Joesph came to the United States from canada to receive treatment that the UHC in Canada would not cover. The family flew back to their home in Windsor, Ontario, on Thursday, one month after receiving a tracheotomy at a children's hospital in St. Louis. www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/04/21/baby.joseph.goes.home/index.htmlThe last update I can find is April 29th with baby Joesph doing okay back home. So will I receive an apology? If you call me a liar you better damn well prove what you say. chill, seriously. I was clearly defining a medical term in YOUR QUOTE that you seemed to misunderstand. I have not followed this particular case, nor do I know anything about the prognosis of the child in question. past that, I did a quick google search. after reading a bit, I'm with evt - had all of this happened within the US, the child would have died long before any of the news hit the airwaves. because it was billed as a "Canadian healthcare is denying treatment" story, and it was a child, of course a religious hospital picked up the slack. they need all the PR help they can get. his case was picked up by the pro-life movement. I will give them this credit - they actually defended the life of a child that was already here.....even if he had previously been declared terminally ill by multiple members of the medical profession.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 25, 2011 20:20:10 GMT -5
Hey Warsaw, Can you just TRY to use a term slightly less demeaning than "con" to refer to conservative? And "Pub" doesn't help your argument either. You have points to make- possibly valid ones. You hurt your efforts by using language which demeans your opponents. Especially "con", which to me means "convict", and if repeated ad nauseum could be construed as breaking our rules. Deminmaine, Moderator. I have to plead guilty too, don't use em as much but got into the habit , like a short hand, less to type, how about C and L..think that might work? Always looking to make posting easier and faster, as if it is so important to get our thoughts out to all quickly so one can absorb all that wisdom so much sooner.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 25, 2011 20:33:22 GMT -5
So you turn this against an Insurance company, when the government refused to pay for treatment. It's exactly the same. Now since the procedure was done elsewhere and paid for by private individuals the child has a chance to survive and is offered government benefits, what do people without those options do? The government didn't deny paying for anything- the doctors refused the treatment. In fact it looks like the government is on the hook for quite a lot for this child- and luckily since the parents are Canadian, they will not endure financial ruin in addition. Considering the fact they had a child like this before, I doubt they would even get insurance here- or if they did it would exclude the same disease, so either way, in the great USA the kid wouldn't have been around long enough to become a story.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 25, 2011 21:46:18 GMT -5
I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination but could this be reference to the points of a compass? They were around when the bible was written.
That's not to say the writers of the bible didn't believe the world was flat; who knows but this could have easily been a compass and it's four corners.
All men are created equal. That's not meant to be interpreted as we take the wealth of all men [or people] to spread the wealth and make their bank accounts equal.
I assume as a non religious person yourself that you believe in Darwin's theory. Sometimes you have to let the weak die off. Nothing personal, just science.
Our sympathy as humans may be our downfall.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 25, 2011 21:50:06 GMT -5
I've got a clue for you: "HMO".
Look it up and let the class know what you find, including the origination of HMO's in the US; first their non-profit status and then their switch to for profit because of how horrible they were managed upon implementation - and by implementation, I mean forced up the asses of the American people.
Ever heard of unintended consequences? This is one of them that was caused by Medicare.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 25, 2011 23:37:27 GMT -5
What the hell are you talking about? HMO's were Nixon's answer to prevent single payer, no? Evidently the Canadians are just fine and it is the US citizens that are screwed- going to refute that one?
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on May 26, 2011 2:59:24 GMT -5
Hey, a self contradiction in two adjacent sentences. Maybe one of you Conservatives can break this thread's record and have it in the same sentence. Here's a bonus contradiction: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=politics&thread=8802&page=1Note the feelings of moral and intellectual superiority. And isn't it strange that liberals are conveinently undereducated by public schools or overeducated elitists when the situation calls for it? And even though there are two contradictions, they don't cancel each other out, sorry. It's like Conservatives are employees at the Ministry of Truth, and wasn't their hero Reagan President in 1984? Makes you wonder... In other words, "we want personal responsibility, unless it came from Obama, and since it came from Obama, we have to do the opposite!" That would only make sense if the entire world was a giant compass. And compasses are flat. I'm glad you defeated an argument I never made, I guess. Anyways, in Europe, people weren't "made equal," and there was little social mobility. "Darwin's theory" is about 150 years old and is wrong in some places, so no. That's social Darwinism. No, I don't believe in that either.
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pappyjohn99
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Post by pappyjohn99 on May 26, 2011 7:57:44 GMT -5
Liberals are about disappointment, disbelief, and pity.
This may be the truest thing you have ever said Warsaw.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 26, 2011 12:59:41 GMT -5
What the hell are you talking about? HMO's were Nixon's answer to prevent single payer, no? Evidently the Canadians are just fine and it is the US citizens that are screwed- going to refute that one? You're going to blame the Health Maintenance Organization Act of 1973 on Nixon?!? Better do some research.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 26, 2011 17:22:54 GMT -5
You're going to blame the Health Maintenance Organization Act of 1973 on Nixon?!? Better do some research. Maybe you should. whitehousetapes.net/clip/richard-nixon-john-ehrlichman-all-incentives-are-toward-less-medical-careIn this conversation excerpt, domestic policy advisor John EhrlichmanÞ briefed President Nixon on what he viewed as the advantages of relying on Health Maintenance Organizations as a key component of the U.S. health care system, using Edgar Kaiser's Permanente as an example. True HMOs at the time had been devised by health care reformers who hoped to control costs, improve patient care, and facilitate coverage for the uninsured. For Ehrichman, however, the HMO idea represented an opportunity to develop a private sector-based, profit-driven alternative to a national health care proposal offered by Senator Edward "Ted" Kennedy (D-MA). Nixon succinctly endorsed the idea in this conversation, and his administration soon made it the core of what would eventually become the Health Maintenance Organization and Resources Development Act of 1973. Can't get any clearer than that.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 26, 2011 18:18:04 GMT -5
"Maybe you should." Your in trouble now, Palmbeach does not take kindly to have his mistakes and false hoods pointed out, especially publickly...better buckle in, ...
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 26, 2011 23:31:38 GMT -5
A note to the moderators:
To be perfectly succinct, I am well past the point of being patient with posts like the one above. Now, I realize that "palmbeachpaul" was not the original author of those words, but his propensity for posting these sorts of politically bigoted and hateful articles is undeniably offensive to any liberal, and perhaps to some conservatives, as well.
His actions may not have directly violated the terms of use, so I am not necessarily requesting moderator intervention, yet at the same time, I must express my total disgust and revulsion at having to see this kind of trash repeated here on this board. I normally keep a level head in political discussions, but in regards to seeing this type of offensive propaganda, that may very well change.
I felt I should point out that I am as much offended by this article and it's reproduction here as I would be if I had been a victim of a racial slur.
And yes, I honestly do feel that offended.
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