henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 22, 2011 20:02:42 GMT -5
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Post by marshabar1 on May 22, 2011 20:16:36 GMT -5
89.27% respondents, including me, vote a solid no to 1967 border and yes to Israel being our one true ally in the area.
Glad to hear rich American Jews are finally waking up a little bit and wondering why they support anti-Semitics ALL the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2011 20:19:58 GMT -5
89.27 includes me. I stand with Israel.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 22, 2011 20:34:04 GMT -5
LOL!
A FOX News Poll? FOX?
I am surprised there is any percent who said 'yes' or 'not sure'.
What next-a Focus On The Family poll asking their followers if same-sex marriage should be legalized? I would expect the same results as Fox's poll.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 22, 2011 20:45:44 GMT -5
LOL! A FOX News Poll? FOX? I am surprised there is any percent who said 'yes' or 'not sure'. What next-a Focus On The Family poll asking their followers if same-sex marriage should be legalized? I would expect the same results as Fox's poll.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2011 20:50:12 GMT -5
You guys ARE free to post polls by people that think we should bail on Israel and let the Islamists have them. Then they can put all their focus on taking US down.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 22, 2011 20:57:57 GMT -5
krickitt-I have been a supporter of Israel all my life. And Israel and its neighbors have been fighting all of my life too. I want Israel and its neighbors to once and for all knock this shit off. It has been going on more than long enough. Sit down and work it out. Now.
As for Fox's poll-it represents America's thoughts as much as a poll on Think Progress would.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on May 22, 2011 21:06:53 GMT -5
The Fox poll has nothing to do with what Obama said in his speech. "Should Israel Pull back to '67 borders to create Palestinian State?" Please show me a quote of Obama saying those exact words. I would bet anything that Obama, everyone in the white house and every middle easter negotiator for the past 40 years would also vote no, were they bored enough to take that Fox poll. Obama said: "We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states." Whatever happened to the days when republicans understood the concept of negotiation and the concept of setting a "base" from where negotiations begin. If any "conservatives" decided to look at the base negotiating position for every US led Israel/Palestinian peace effort they would find that the pre-67 war borders have usually been used as a base, when they weren't the cease fire lines from 1948 were used which are not nearly as favorable to Israel. Wouldn't it be interesting if republicans bothered to understand the facts before believing the sound bites, debates would certainly be more interesting and Fox news would go out of business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2011 21:13:04 GMT -5
Oh, we understand. What Obama said was....nothing. Nothing has changed,and everybody is talking about it. That's what Obama DOES. He says nothing.. then gauges public response, then says what I MEANT was.... either that or he outright lies and deceives, like he did in El Paso.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 22, 2011 21:16:10 GMT -5
Tennesseer,
If you support Israel as you say you do, then are you unhappy to know that others do too, and in overwhelming numbers?
True, the Fox poll might well replicate a poll by Thinkprogress, with its very left leaning audiience.
And that makes it all the more look like your diss of Fox viewers was a bait rather than an honest viewpoint. What is the debating point you want to make? Or better yet, is there one?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 22, 2011 21:33:43 GMT -5
henryclay-What was the point of you posting a clearly biased poll? Was it to bait other posters? You have been around long enough to know many posters believe Fox is a biased source of news. So why post a poll from Fox-let alone an unscientific one at that?
As for others supporting Israel? That doesn't make me unhappy one bit. We just disagree a bit about whether or not Israel should return to its original borders. I believe Israel should return to its borders that existed in 1948 when Israel proclaimed its independence. Once peace treaties are signed with Syria and the Palestinian Authority, Israel should return the Golan Heights and the West Bank.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on May 22, 2011 21:45:09 GMT -5
henryclay-What was the point of you posting a clearly biased poll? Was it to bait other posters? You have been around long enough to know many posters believe Fox is a biased source of news. So why post a poll from Fox-let alone an unscientific one at that? As for others supporting Israel? That doesn't make me unhappy one bit. We just disagree a bit about whether or not Israel should return to its original borders. I believe Israel should return to its borders that existed in 1948 when Israel proclaimed its independence. Once peace treaties are signed with Syria and the Palestinian Authority, Israel should return the Golan Heights and the West Bank.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 22, 2011 21:50:51 GMT -5
Tennesseer I posted the link to the Fox poll, NOT the poll itself, (thank you very much), because I saw it and the lopsided responses made me aware that what I have seen ob boards like this one son't seem to reflect the national view. Whether all the respondents are right wing kooks of errant anti-ACORN plants is not identified.
But I also looked for a Gallup, Zogby or Rasmussen poll to use as a meaasuring stick. I didn't find one. If you have one, , , or anything that purports to be a scientific poll on the same subject, please do us all a favor and post the results.
But, are you now telling me that I, as an individual person, am supposed to limit my posts to things that would please people who seem to stand for so much that I was taught to avoid?
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zipity
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Post by zipity on May 22, 2011 21:54:03 GMT -5
Nothing has changed,and everybody is talking about it.
So talking about negotiating a peace treaty is a bad thing in AZ? I'll have to do a bit of research and see how many people from AZ spoke out against Bush when his negotiators tried to work the same deal.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 22, 2011 21:55:00 GMT -5
Of course you couldn't post the poll henryclay-it is on going.
Stop with the drama henryclay-it is unbecoming.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 22, 2011 22:03:17 GMT -5
Like so many threads here, where people respond to each other, I have responded to the points you have directed at me. No more, no less.
As for unbecomiong, I thought your fox diss was unbecoming. I thought even more so when you began to explain yourself.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 22, 2011 22:12:44 GMT -5
The Fox poll has nothing to do with what Obama said in his speech. "Should Israel Pull back to '67 borders to create Palestinian State?" Please show me a quote of Obama saying those exact words. I would bet anything that Obama, everyone in the white house and every middle easter negotiator for the past 40 years would also vote no, were they bored enough to take that Fox poll. Obama said: "We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states." Whatever happened to the days when republicans understood the concept of negotiation and the concept of setting a "base" from where negotiations begin. If any "conservatives" decided to look at the base negotiating position for every US led Israel/Palestinian peace effort they would find that the pre-67 war borders have usually been used as a base, when they weren't the cease fire lines from 1948 were used which are not nearly as favorable to Israel. Wouldn't it be interesting if republicans bothered to understand the facts before believing the sound bites, debates would certainly be more interesting and Fox news would go out of business. and he made it very clear again today in his speech that no one is bailing on Israel. The realities are , and I don't blame them if they can get away with it, the "Status Quo ", is fine for the current leaders of Israel. There is no State with all the strengths of a State, to make alliances, treaties, having to answer to anyone but their own people. The new realities from 1967, is they have put Israeli settlements strategically where they wanted , throughout the West Bank, just look at the maps. Walls cutting off the Palestinian villages from each other. Roads that only Israeli's can drive on and if anyone with 1/2 a brain can see the way it is today, the West bank is pockets of Palestinian Villages, surrounded from all sides by Israelis . Just to go from A to B is a day and a half if your not turned back for what ever reason. How can a State survive that way, how do you build commerce, infrastructure , roads, move goods to market, have industrial plants and get products to market. Of course they love the status quo. The only thing better would be to have enough Israeli's with a weapon for every single Palestinian say over 12, to watch and make sure they are doing nothing wrong. Naturally that won't work so they did the next best thing. They want security, well there is never 100 % security, 9/11 proved that, there is always risk. The border of "67" are where you start, then the bargaining takes place. We want this , we give you that, we pull out here but you move back there, always with the ideas of security in mind. They had most of this done already, they were bargaining over blocks, not miles. Palestinians have self defense weapons only, no offensive heavy weapons. No need for it. Israeli's attack them, they would never be allowed to have enough to give a good fight anyway, and no one else is going to attack them. hell they can save a fortune, let Israel spend the $ , their problem. The whole idea here is no more Wars..Israel is always going to be more then able to defend themselves , alone , so where is the danger. You have some Palestinians, Arabs from elsewhere don't accept the peace, I discussed that else where, the Palestinians are responsible to stop, or if they slip through go after with all force to catch them, no militias allowed. Obama made a great speech, he hit it on the nail head, Natanjahu , have no clue where he is coming from. Not sure what the political set up is right now in Israel, possible he is not the one to settle this, need some one new, who trust me , will look out for Israels interests security. I wonder if it is all about security or more just Israeli's self interest. Still many Palestinians still work in Israel, cheap labor, some entrpeneur penaurs set up businesses , industry's in West bank, still cheap labor. Products sold from Israel to West bank, what if now those goods bought more from Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq. Not to try and work it out..does not compute, the status quo is not working. To give away their security and if the Palestinians don't understand that, become obstinate, no give, thinking they will get more, THEN you keep the status quo, and so be it, but MUST negotiate not dictate, and be as fair as one can be. They say Jerusalem must stay in Israel hands , all of it, all places. Why? I don't see giving hugh chunks away, but a symbolic presence, Arab East Jerusalem, some of it, Government buildings, their capital, a place to welcome dignitaries to the new State. Why not. If it could be worked out in time, I could see a open city, walk from the Arab, Palestinian side, no guards, no check points, shop here there, tourist go wherever, only way you know which side your in possible the flags on light poles. The call to prayer. Obamas proposal as a basis to talk, no bail out, just a attempt to get off the snide.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 22, 2011 22:25:53 GMT -5
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 22, 2011 23:03:40 GMT -5
The vote is now better than 12 to 1 against Omama's position. There is also a Rasmussen poll that, (scienticfically), says better than 71% of those polled think that Israel should get assurances that it has a right to exist, something they have never had, and is contrary to the base purpose of some of her enemies. A new Rasmussen poll shows that 71% of likely U.S. voters believe recognizing Israel's right to exist should be part of any Middle East peace agreement. The survey was taken before Obama's Middle East speech Thursday, when he proposed a two-state solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine and helping fund Egypt.
In another Rasmussen poll from February of this year, however, Americans polled overwhelmingly for ending foreign aid to Arab states in the Middle East, including Egypt (this was before the Muslim Brotherhood took over). In fact, only 20% of American adults polled wanted the aid to continue, while 58% were against it. townhall.com/tipsheet/elisabethmeinecke/2011/05/20/poll_71_percent_say_israels_right_to_exist_must_be_recognized_in_middle_east_peace_negotiationsand: uselectionnews.org/71-of-americans-side-with-israels-right-to-exist/853716/
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 22, 2011 23:13:32 GMT -5
A new Rasmussen poll shows that 71% of likely U.S. voters believe recognizing Israel's right to exist should be part of any Middle East peace agreement. Wow! 29% don't. What do they believe?
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shelby
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Post by shelby on May 22, 2011 23:13:44 GMT -5
"The vote is now better than 12 to 1 against Omama's position.
There is also a Rasmussen poll that, (scienticfically), says better than 71% of those polled think that Israel should get assurances that it has a right to exist, something they have never had, and is contrary to the base purpose of some of her enemies."
I'm confused Obama does take the position Isreal has the right to exist and should be recognized by there opposition.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 22, 2011 23:47:39 GMT -5
Ah, but shelby, Obama is only a broker wannabee. The problem Israel has is that the people Obama wants Israel to negotiate with aren't on board and willing to concede the same benevolent thoughts.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on May 22, 2011 23:53:26 GMT -5
I thought that was the point though was that he was saying they have to realize Israel exists to even start negotiating.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 0:10:51 GMT -5
Which is why Obama's speech does not matter much. He just made a lot of very dangerous people mad, and upset a lot of people that can actually imagine what he said happening, which is not going to happen under the current situation in the ME because it would be too dangerous for Israel. It's very much like the El Paso speech, where he gave all those illegals big hope... so they and their supporters will vote for him... even though there is NO WAY anything is going to be done about immigration before the next election.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 23, 2011 0:26:48 GMT -5
I thought that was the point though was that he was saying they have to realize Israel exists to even start negotiating. I can't get into his head, and he may have intended something like that, but I sure never heard him articulate the idea in plain words. Good gosh, I can't even guess what the translation would come out like if English speaking peope are that far apart on what he said.
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on May 23, 2011 9:46:28 GMT -5
Once a nation becomes sovereign, they really don't need "assurances." And countries that are friendly or neutral don't need to tell them, and with a hostile country, "assurances" aren't going to do a thing (and it's their problem if they think that way).
And this seems like a silly trap that falls under "if someone doesn't state A, they must believe ~A." Now, since none of you have never said that Israelis shouldn't just all go to Mars, ergo you all believe that they should, eh? it's a loaded poll question.
I never heard him articulate that water is wet, so does he believe it's dry? Hey, could you link to where you articulated in plain words that water is wet, or do you believe the opposite?
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Post by ed1066 on May 23, 2011 13:44:20 GMT -5
Liberals should be required to memorize this part of the Palestinian Charter (i.e. their constitution). If you support the Palestinian "cause", you support this: Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! And this: [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas). www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thej....ts/charter.html
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 13:59:06 GMT -5
They don't believe it, Ed. To decide that Islamists do not have it in for Israel, regardless of all the proof to the contrary, is an odd choice to make, but that is the choice they have made. I'm very glad that I do not in any way agree with terrorists.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 23, 2011 14:34:11 GMT -5
Since its inception as a home for Jews Israel has been faced with hostility from its arab neighbors. It has fought four wars to maintain its survival. The most notable was in the summer of 1967 when for 6 days Israel defended itself from attacks by ground and air forces of its immediate neighbors, Jordan, Syria and Egypt, plus two squadrons of airplanes and 100 tanks from Iraq, Pakistan Air Forces acting in an independent capacity, and aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. Although the war was no walk in the park, and consumed much of Israel’s military equipment and several thousand of its personnel dead or wounded, they won the war flat out, including taking the entire Sinai Peninsular and Gaza Strip from Egypt. Jordan lost the area known as the West Bank of the Jordan River all the way to, and including East Jerusalem. Syria lost the Golan Heights. In total Israel expanded its territory by a factor of about 3. In 1973, and beginning on Yom Kippur, the holiest day on the Jewish calendar, Egypt and Syria tried once again to, and very nearly did, defeat Israel. See: two accounts: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_Warand: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/73_War.htmlIn 1977 President Carter brokered a summit between Israel and Egypt at Camp David which produced the “Camp David Accords” in 1978.. Under the provisions of the Accords Egypt recognized Israel’s sovereign status and the Sinai Peninsular was ceded back to the Egyptians. Egypt’s President Anwar Sadat was later assassinated for having recognized Israel’s sovereignty and agreeing to the Camp David Accords. To date no other arab country has formally recognized Israel’s right to exist. Israel also returned the Gaza Strip in to Egypt in 2005, but has maintained administrative control over its airports, seaports and border crossings. Except for Egypt, and more recently Jordan, there are no arab consuls or embassies in Israel. Jordan has attempted, unsuccessfully, to have Israel recognized by other arab nations, and has repeatedly made a proposal to negotiate an end the conflicts, all of them, in return for peace. No arab country has stepped forward in agreement. www.jordanembassyus.org/new/me/arabinitiative.shtmlThe rockets, rocks, bullets, suicide bombers and RPG’s continue to take their toll on Israeli property and citizens. Through it all the Israelis have asked for only one thing: arab recognition of UN Resolutinm 242 which would give Israel the right to live in peace. It would seem the arabs are deaf. Obama's proposal is an attempt to circumvent UN Resolution 242 and would dilute Israel of its authority to negotiate its own future.
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on May 23, 2011 14:36:22 GMT -5
"CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF PALESTINE" www.mideastweb.org/palconstitution.htmen.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Palestine_%282003%29That's funny, when I searched for those phrases in their Constitution, even the words "Jews" and "peaceful solutions" aren't mentioned. The regulars here know about you and your lack of truthfulness and honesty, but I did what I did just in case there's someone new here. Otherwise, you two can go on with your little "libs think" circle jerk without any liberals' input. It's an odd choice to presume that you know all about libs without asking or quoting them, but it is a choice you two have made over and over. I'm glad I do not agree with those statements that you tell us we do or smug, knee-jerk, Fox-aid drinking partisians who can only use straw man arguments and back-pat each other. So yeah, carry on.
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