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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 13:07:16 GMT -5
Am I insane? Sorry for the long post but you can tell it's a difficult decision. Please help me think this through.
I'm back in the States for a 2 month visit. The first couple of days were spent with my MIL. It's obvious that she's starting to decline. She's 76 and while that's not necessarily old, she's had 3 serious bouts of cancer; kidney, breast, bladder and several bouts of skin cancer. She's recovered from all of them but the surgeries have taken their toll. Although she still drives okay she has other issues; she's had several falls, gastro problems, the list goes on which required ambulance trips to the emergency room. When I was there we were getting ready to go out to dinner and I noticed she had wet her pants. She didn't even know until I pointed it out.
DH and I are both worried about her. She's a proud woman and has lived alone for about 40 years. She retired from her civil service career about 10 years ago at the Senior Executive level (think 1 star General in the CS). So she's used to having her way.
Financially she's in pretty good shape. She has a Federal Pension of about $100k/yr and it's indexed for inflation. The state of Oregon (where she lives) doesn't tax Federal pensions. In addition she has additional investments; I'm guessing of about $500k including the equity in her house. We'll know more in about a month when DH visits her and I drive up to meet with them. BTW DH is an only child.
Although extremely bright (she has a PhD and was in charge of several federal chemical hazardous waste programs) she can be shockingly naive with financial matters. She's lent money to folks who have worked on her house, etc. She can be too generous at times and then resents it when people don't reciprocate (all of us in the family have complained about the generosity coming with strings. LOL).
About 2 years ago she completely remodeled the walk-out basement of her 3000 sq.ft. house so it's basically it's own apartment complete with a small kitchen. She had this work done in anticipation of extended stays by caregivers. It's a nice space; probably 1000 sq.ft. with 3 (small) bedrooms, 2 baths and it's own sitting room.
She would like us to move in with her. Both DH and I have said no. All three of us have our personality issues plus between us we have 5 pets (she 3 spoiled Corgis, we 2 spoiled cats). Both DH and I are deeply concerned that the dogs would act like a pack and possibly kill the cats if they came in contact with each other in the house. But the areas are separate with a gate at the top of the stairs. Also the yard is two different levels fully fenced and separated by gates.
Now that I'm 800 miles away sitting in our vacation home in the So. Cal mountains, I'm reconsidering whether we should at least try it out. DH plans on retiring next year at age 53 and we planned on moving to our former home in the SF Bay Area. In fact we paid off the house in March anticipating the move. We planned to live there for 3-5 years, fixing up the house and selling it and moving into our next rental house which is located in San Diego (near where my father lives with his SO).
And while it's a great plan with us mid way between both of our remaining parents I think we are going to be constantly worried about her. She's quite isolated and has no social outlet. She moved to OR to be near an older brother (who is in the last stages of Parkinson's) and his wife. That brother was finally moved into assisted living about a year ago because his nearly 80 year old wife couldn't pick him up when he would fall. The wife has since had a niece move in with her and is in weekly (but not daily contact) with my MIL.
Although this wouldn't be a financially driven decision, it could work well for us. I would want us to pay for the utilities (mainly because I don't want to hear her complain about us using them) but think she should keep paying the mortgage, taxes and insurance on her house. We would be responsible for our own food. Since we wouldn't be moving into our Bay Area house for a while we could keep collecting the rent which should net us about $2000/mth. That would bring our retirement income to nearly $100k/yr.
Thoughts? WWYD?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 19, 2011 13:11:44 GMT -5
bonnap, I don't know what you should do. What I can tell you is that my civilian manager's father died this morning. Whatever you and your DH decide, make sure you can live with your decision and have no regrets/wishes of "I wish we'd moved closer to X."
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Post by jospaced on May 19, 2011 13:16:14 GMT -5
It's so hard to know the right thing to do with aging parents!!!! When my dad died, I just could not see my way clear to move in with mom; we would have driven each other crazy. But the set-up she has is not as desirable as your MIL's. Could you give it a trial run? That way you could get a really clear idea of what her needs are and how that living situation would work for you. One of my friends converted the lower level of her house to an "in-law" apartment and has both her parents living there. It has worked out fine, although some days she calls me screaming.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 19, 2011 13:19:27 GMT -5
I really just want to make a bunch of jokes about playstations and acne.
Is there any possibility that you could find a home where you want to live and she could come live with you instead?
Agh. I feel for you.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 13:25:30 GMT -5
Would she consider a good Assisted Living Community near where you plan to live? With her resources, she could afford one where she'd have her own apartment, a decent restaurant with meals provided, shuttles to nearby places, and a lot of activities. That way neither of you would be living under a roof owned by the other and she could be as involved as she wants to be in the community activities. I have only one child and that's my long-term plan.
From what you've said, it sounds like she has no particular ties to where she lives now.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 13:27:48 GMT -5
"make sure you can live with your decision and have no regrets/wishes of "I wish we'd moved closer to X."
Exactly. I'm terribly worried that we'll get the call that someone found MIL at the bottom of the stairs after 2 days.
Dang, you'd think I was raised Catholic!!!
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 13:29:16 GMT -5
bonnapp, This is one of those "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situations. You already know that you will be getting those calls when she falls, or has to have another surgery, or........
If you were living there it would be easier to deal with esp since your DH is an only child, it's all going to fall on his and your shoulders.....
Your situation is so unique and you do have the flexibility to give it a trial that I'd be tempted. Overall, do you like your MIL? Or does she annoy you?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 13:30:07 GMT -5
"Is there any possibility that you could find a home where you want to live and she could come live with you instead?"
Well she could live in the basement of our home in the SF Bay area but it's not nearly as nice. We'd have to spend some serious bucks to make it elder friendly.
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Post by jospaced on May 19, 2011 13:31:49 GMT -5
We tried assisted living for my mother. She hated it, even though it was a very nice place. She just wanted to be in her own home. We have honored that decision but insisted she has homecare, which has worked out great. <<Mom is 98>>
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 13:34:47 GMT -5
"Would she consider a good Assisted Living Community near where you plan to live?"
Not yet. Unless she has a horrific injury she's going to want to live in this house until her brother dies.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 13:35:50 GMT -5
Jo D,
How far away do you live from your mother?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 19, 2011 13:35:55 GMT -5
"make sure you can live with your decision and have no regrets/wishes of "I wish we'd moved closer to X." Exactly. I'm terribly worried that we'll get the call that someone found MIL at the bottom of the stairs after 2 days. Dang, you'd think I was raised Catholic!!! bonnap - it happens that way sometimes. it happened to a coworker last Labor Day.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 13:36:49 GMT -5
bonapp, With her resources, have you considered home care? It could be live in or hourly.... If you want to reaearch it, you can google Senior's Choice". or eldercare plus the county and state
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Post by jospaced on May 19, 2011 13:37:40 GMT -5
I live about 15 minutes away. And there's also another sibling who lives about the same distance.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 13:38:51 GMT -5
"make sure you can live with your decision and have no regrets/wishes of "I wish we'd moved closer to X." Exactly. I'm terribly worried that we'll get the call that someone found MIL at the bottom of the stairs after 2 days. Dang, you'd think I was raised Catholic!!! bonnap - it happens that way sometimes. it happened to a coworker last Labor Day. Indeed it does. My aunt was in her 80's and fell in her backyard. It was 12 hours before she was discovered. Fortunately it was in the summer because she spent the night lying there.
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Post by jospaced on May 19, 2011 13:39:23 GMT -5
gardening: We have found this to be a great option. I think the wonderful person we found is one reason my mom is still alive. Mom is taken care of, and they actually have fun together.
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Post by jospaced on May 19, 2011 13:48:07 GMT -5
Another thing we did when she was adamant about staying in her home was to get "Lifealert". She wears a necklace with a button to push if she should fall or need some other kind of help.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 13:56:09 GMT -5
"have you considered home care? It could be live in or hourly"
Yes but I haven't researched it. Thank you for the resource. I'll check it out this evening (I'm doing the annual deep cleaning for our summer renters).
During her many operations she has had some people stay with her as care givers but there have been issues. I'm not convinced that they were truly qualified caregivers. Like I said in my OP she can be surprisingly naive and has a habit of feeling sorry for folks. For example, she took in one woman who was supposed to take care of her dogs while MIL was sick and in the hospital. The woman wound up locking all the dogs (including her own) in the apartment while she went to work. You can guess the result.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 14:04:30 GMT -5
I should add that right now MIL is using the services of the daughter of a woman MIL met at a bath improvement store during one of her remodeling projects. It's working out well but it's not a permanent solution. She's currently un or under employed but is trying to get into nursing school. She comes about 3x week, walks the 3 dogs and helps or does the housework. She is a sweet girl and because MIL has long term disability insurance the cost is being paid from insurance. Unfortunately that will end soon. I am going to suggest that MIL continue that kind of service even if it comes out of her own pocket at least until we get back to the States.
The tricky part is finding the right person. OR has a horrible meth problem and my MIL keeps reading about all of these elder abuse stories in the newspaper about caregivers...
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 14:06:57 GMT -5
I should add that right now MIL is using the services of the daughter of a woman MIL met at a bath improvement store during one of her remodeling projects. It's working out well but it's not a permanent solution. She's currently un or under employed but is trying to get into nursing school. She comes about 3x week, walks the 3 dogs and helps or does the housework. She is a sweet girl and because MIL has long term disability insurance the cost is being paid from insurance. Unfortunately that will end soon. I am going to suggest that MIL continue that kind of service even if it comes out of her own pocket at least until we get back to the States. The tricky part is finding the right person. OR has a horrible meth problem and my MIL keeps reading about all of these elder abuse stories in the newspaper about caregivers... three words: "licensed", "bonded" , "agency"
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 19, 2011 14:11:50 GMT -5
This is one of those gut decisions that all the pro/con lists in the world aren't going to help you solve (I hate that kind!). Sleep on it for a few days, then take a long walk or drive and see how you feel. Does the thought of moving in fill you with dread? Or do you worry more about getting that phone call?
And sometimes if you've thought things through over and over and still can't come to a decision... maybe that IS your decision (in this case, it would probably be not to move in).
Also, what does your DH think?
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Anne_in_VA
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Post by Anne_in_VA on May 19, 2011 14:12:26 GMT -5
Bonnap - you said you're in the states for a couple of months - could you move into the basement apt for the duration of your stay to try it out and see if you're compatible and this would give you time to figure out what the issues are.
I'd also recommend her keeping the home caregiver she currently has if the person is willing to stay with her even if it has to come out of MIL's pocket.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on May 19, 2011 14:15:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure this sounds like a situation where assisted living is needed just yet or even an in home caregiver. It really depends on how well you like your MIL. Could you have ground rules where everyone had some privacy? Is she going to nag you if you go out late at night? I would be tempted to do it on a trial basis to see how it would work. Another option would be just a roommate situation. My Grandma (turns 90 in August) went into assisted living 3 years ago kicking and screaming. She did not want to go, but she could no longer drive and lived on a farm 15 miles from the nearest town of more than 90 people (and that town only had 1000, although it does have a hospital). She had fallen down the cellar, fallen off the lawn mower, and was very isolated. After she had been in assisted living for 2 months she went to visit my parents and fell off of my other Grandma's front porch and broke her hip. Afterwards, she embraced assisted living life and has absolutely thrived in assisted living. My dad and Uncle swore to me 3 years ago that she would not live to see 90. Well, we are 3 months away from an awesome birthday bash. She's actually coming with my parents and other Grandma to visit DS this weekend (and me and DH, but mainly DS).
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on May 19, 2011 14:16:41 GMT -5
Is the walk-out basement elderly friendly? She might do better down there - and no stairs to worry about.
In our family several relatives have lived into their 90's. Dad was 98. In all cases, falls determined the final living situation. They lose both balance and strength - a step into a tub or shower becomes major. They fall and then can't get up. And they forget their push-button locket, they leave it in the bath room. Same with the phone, it is never within reach. Look for single-level living, that means no entry steps (even two-steps from the garage into the house become major). I can tell you - it is very hard to get someone down two steps and into a car for a trip to the ER after a bathroom fall (in fact, in retro spec, I should have called 911).
If the walk-out has no steps to the driveway, smooth surfaces between rooms, etc, so she can push a walker everywhere w/o hitting a bump, that is ideal. And raised bathroom stools, grab bars everywhere, for balance. And a small kitchen where she can stand in one spot, balance with a walker, and reach things w/o having to travel around.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 19, 2011 14:18:09 GMT -5
Bonnap - you said you're in the states for a couple of months - could you move into the basement apt for the duration of your stay to try it out and see if you're compatible and this would give you time to figure out what the issues are. I'd also recommend her keeping the home caregiver she currently has if the person is willing to stay with her even if it has to come out of MIL's pocket. I second this.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on May 19, 2011 14:22:25 GMT -5
Is the walk-out basement elderly friendly? She might do better down there - and no stairs to worry about. In our family several relatives have lived into their 90's. Dad was 98. In all cases, falls determined the final living situation. They lose both balance and strength - a step into a tub or shower becomes major. They fall and then can't get up. And they forget their push-button locket, they leave it in the bath room. Same with the phone, it is never within reach. Look for single-level living, that means no entry steps (even two-steps from the garage into the house become major). I can tell you - it is very hard to get someone down two steps and into a car for a trip to the ER after a bathroom fall (in fact, in retro spec, I should have called 911). If the walk-out has no steps to the driveway, smooth surfaces between rooms, etc, so she can push a walker everywhere w/o hitting a bump, that is ideal. And raised bathroom stools, grab bars everywhere, for balance. And a small kitchen where she can stand in one spot, balance with a walker, and reach things w/o having to travel around. You just described the elder apartment complex that my Grandma and Grandad lived in. They were a community of little duplexes, with a central community house. It was great! Lawn care and maintence provided, and a nurse who did well-checks once a week. There were also permanently installed alert pulls in the bathroom, kitchen and by each bed. It was a good solution for them after they initally adjusted.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 14:30:09 GMT -5
"could you move into the basement apt for the duration of your stay to try it out and see if you're compatible and this would give you time to figure out what the issues are."
Not really. I'm here to do some property work. But both DH and I have stayed at the house before. I was her caregiver for 2 weeks about 18 months ago. It wasn't fun as she was very demanding. But I think the dynamics have changed. She's really worried; I haven't seen that before. Even during the two days that I was there she was a lot more relaxed about things not being perfect or her way. We'll definitely get more of a taste of it when I stay for several days next month. And of course the dynamic with DH is a whole 'nother piece. Fortunately we have this place in the mountains where either one of us could escape to for a week or so at a time...
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 14:42:07 GMT -5
"Is the walk-out basement elderly friendly? She might do better down there - and no stairs to worry about."
No. Although to her credit she did volunteer to live there and install two of those sitting mechanical chairs (I think they are about 14k each!). Although the main entrance to the house is a split level entrance the main floor has a back (kitchen) door which is only one step to the side yard, garage and street level so pretty easy to get someone in and out of the house that way. She's had some practice with her brother as he has been going through his decline with Alzheimer's. She had a temporary ramp put in, higher toilet et cetera.
Longivity is the coin toss here. Her father lived to 102 but her mom only until her mid 50s. Because MIL smoked for about 50 years her heath isn't good. I think it's why she's had so many cancers. Although she's a fighter I don't think she will last more than 10 years and will probably go into a deep decline when her brothers die and then her dogs. No joke about the dogs; we don't have children and they are clearly the substitute grandchildren.
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Post by shanendoah on May 19, 2011 14:50:58 GMT -5
I'll be honest, if you have doubts, don't do it. Maybe you and DH could look in to renting or buying a place near her, but living under the same roof, even if there is separation, can be relationship destroying.
My MIL lived with us for 16 months. They were the worst 16 months of my life (there were other contributing factors, but MIL was the major reason.) We didn't have as nice a set up as you describe- we were all on one floor with one bathroom, but given our personality issues, that would have made the situation tolerable for a while longer, but still not a good option. She is now in age restricted housing. Its not any type of assisted living, but only people 60 or older can live there. They have all sorts of community activities which has been great for MIL's socialization. (When she lived at our house, she refused to go to a senior center or do anything other than sit around and watch tv.)
You might look into age restricted housing, or the progressive communities- places where she can start in completely independent living situations and move to assisted and later nursing home care as she needs it, sometimes only temporarily (like after surgery).
Otherwise, the home care situation sounds good. If the young woman currently helping can't continue to do so, definitely look into agencies. The ones in Seattle let you pick from a menu of options based on what kind of care people need and how often.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 14:51:02 GMT -5
"she went to visit my parents and fell off of my other Grandma's front porch and broke her hip. Afterwards, she embraced assisted living life"
I think it will take something like this to get her into assisted living. As you suggest I don't think she's there yet either. Right now I think she needs companionship and someone who will check on her on a daily basis given how fragile she is.
BTW She bought her long term care insurance swearing she wouldn't go into a home but after watching how awful it's been for her Sister in law caring for her brother I think she's beginning to see the light. Ironically her father (the one who lived to 102) downsized to the smaller home in his 60s, then moved to the retirement home in his 80s then into their assisted living in his mid 90s.
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