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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 14:58:53 GMT -5
Would she consider a good Assisted Living Community near where you plan to live? With her resources, she could afford one where she'd have her own apartment, a decent restaurant with meals provided, shuttles to nearby places, and a lot of activities. That way neither of you would be living under a roof owned by the other and she could be as involved as she wants to be in the community activities. I have only one child and that's my long-term plan. From what you've said, it sounds like she has no particular ties to where she lives now. This one gets my vote.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 15:01:25 GMT -5
"Maybe you and DH could look in to renting or buying a place near her" Renting a place has also crossed my mind but I need to research it further. I really don't want to buy another house (we own 5) but I'm also not keen on renting either. I guess I'm pretty spoiled but one of the hardest things about living in Germany for the past two years has been living in a rented house. After owning our own homes over the last 24 years it's been frustrating living in someone else's house. Although MIL says she thinks of her home as "our" house (ha-ha we know it's her house) it is true that DH is her only child and her Trust does give DH the house. So at this point I can rationalize the "our" part.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 15:03:27 GMT -5
"Would she consider a good Assisted Living Community near where you plan to live?" Not yet. Unless she has a horrific injury she's going to want to live in this house until her brother dies. It is a pet peeve of mine when someone asks you to give up your life to help them in a difficult situation and insist on having all their own way. It does not bode well for how she will treat you.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 19, 2011 15:07:42 GMT -5
I agree with later... from the OP, it sounded like you were leaning toward doing it... the later posts seem to indicate you're leaning the other way. Sometimes I don't know how I feel about something until I hash it out in writing, so I can sympathize.
What does your DH think? Is he pushing for/against it, or leaving it up to you?
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on May 19, 2011 15:17:40 GMT -5
bonnap - I am nearly 27 and DH and I lived with his grandmother right after we married. We were there for 18 months. DH's grandfather passed the year we got married. Grandma has 4 children - 2 wanted her to sell the house, 2 wanted her to keep the house. It is paid for and is a ranch with a basement.
DH and I agreed to move to the house with her in her basement, similar to what you describe. Small kitchen, living room, two bedrooms and bath. We remodeled it at our expense. It was fine for us. We saved even more money for the down payment on our house, and she was comfortable to stay in the house to grieve her loss and think about what she really wanted. We found a great house and moved after 18 months.
SIL started working near her grandmother's house, so she decided to move in there shortly after we moved out. Grandma is very happy. Her health is not ideal, and she is restricted to do certain things, like drive, go up and down the steps for laundry, etc. It was no skin off of our noses to be there and SIL feels the same way.
Granted, the situation is different, but both DH and I reflect on this as something we both benefited from and feel like we helped Grandma out in her time of need.
One thing I didn't hear was how your DH feels about all of this?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 15:20:45 GMT -5
"It is a pet peeve of mine when someone asks you to give up your life to help them in a difficult situation and insist on having all their own way. It does not bode well for how she will treat you."
Later,
I hear what you're saying and agree with you. I certainly felt that way when I took care of her 18 months ago. But like I said in an earlier post, something's changed and she's realizing that she needs some kind of help...forever. By posting here I'm trying to flush out what will be the least difficult option. I suspect that if we try out the living situation and it doesn't work that she'll be far more ameanable to the over 55 living or retirement home situation provided we take her dogs (we have already agreed to do that as part of her estate planning process). Insisting that she sell her house now and move in or near us without first trying out her suggestion is going to be a lot more work.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 15:32:20 GMT -5
"I didn't hear was how your DH feels about all of this?" He's told her he won't live in her basement (hence her offer to move downstairs) but I would be surprised if he isn't thinking along the same lines as I am. He loves his mom even from time to time if he wants to kill her (that's meant figuratively not literally! ). The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. His biggest concern is the pet issue. I think if we put another set of doors downstairs we can reduce the probability of the dogs escaping downstairs. It's a difficult situation and I don't think there's an easy answer. We are a lot more flexible. We have to move in a year regardless. Because all of our properties have been rented out I don't have the emotional attachment that MIL has to her home.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 15:38:06 GMT -5
I also don't view the move as a permanent situation. I can see us living like this until she reaches another declining stage where she needs 24 hour care vs a daily check-in. Then it's time to sell the house and move to the next stage.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 19, 2011 15:49:54 GMT -5
Keep in mind that your definition of when she reaches the next declining stage may differ from hers. There have been so many stories on these boards about a parent who refuses to move/sell, even when they can no longer take care of themselves. This happened to my great aunt, and to her dying day she raved about how my grandfather had "stolen" her house and stuck her in a nursing home.
If you do enter into this situation, it may be useful for you or your DH to get advice from an attorney specializing in elder law. You'll also definitely want to discuss this with your MIL and make sure you have an understanding of the type of care you're going to provide - e.g. when she reaches the point where she can no longer use the bathroom by herself or be trusted to walk more than a few feet, you'll have to bow out and let the professionals take over.
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Post by lulubean on May 19, 2011 15:53:08 GMT -5
Corgis will never kill cats, they are too scared of em.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 16:07:44 GMT -5
MW JD,
Excellent post. I planned on having the "next stage" discussion when we meet next month.
Good point about bringing in the elder care attorney. At least with DH being an only child and DMIL's siblings reaching the same spot, there aren't many other relatives to complain to!
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 16:12:20 GMT -5
"Corgis will never kill cats, they are too scared of em."
LOL, individually I would agree with you. And if I were a dog I wouldn't mess with my 6 year old black German rescue cat. She's one tough cookie. But my 12 supersized Siamese is a big lug and has known nothing but love his whole life.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 16:32:14 GMT -5
I would move in for a month or two to find a reliable caregiver who could live with your MIL and to hash out other issues. I wouldn't do it permanently. For my grandparents, DH's grandparents, and my step-father (he's in his 80's) making strange financial decisions (like being overly generous - paying someone twice for the same service) was one of the first signs of their mental decline. Taking care of someone who is in declining physical health is very intimate - if you, your husband and your MIL aren't comfortable with wiping her butt I wouldn't recommend it. My guardians live with a set of parents and have to help them shower, change poopy/wet sheets, and give them shots. Sometimes it's easier for everyone involved if it is an independent professional. I'd request that you or your husband be put on her checking/brokerage accounts (as long as there are no tax consequences) in order to be able to monitor her spending. It sounds intrusive but in my grandparents case that was the only way her children found out that my grandparents hadn't been paying property tax or homeowners/auto insurance. DH's grandmother was being taken advantage of by a gardener - they found multiple checks written out to him for absurd amounts. It will also let you know if her live-in caregiver is taking money from her. On an emotional level - elderly parents can be quite emotionally abusive and nuts when their brains head downhill. If your relationship already has some quirks it's probably not going to get better while you are living together. Good luck! Enjoy the CA sunshine!
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 16:44:52 GMT -5
I think that Anne is right on. If you went for an extended visit (several weeks to a couple of months) a lot of things may become clearer. At the same time, you will be in a position to research options for down the road. It's better not to wait until you need them because then you are tyring to reaseach while under the gun to make a decision.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 17:14:13 GMT -5
Wow, Anne your comments are very insightful. Ditto GG. Karma to you both. (Sorry GG yours will come a little later).
As you know Anne, the SF Bay Area is only an hour's flight or day's drive to Portland. So it would be relatively easy for us to get up there if there were serious problems. It's one of the reasons I wanted to move to the Bay Area house first; it's mid way between Portland & San Diego (where my 75 year old father lives).
I had thought about the financial situation. We can actually monitor that while we are in Germany. As I told my husband, the hard part is the more qualitative stuff e.g. her back yard pond is leaking, do you repair it (again) or throw in the towel and fill it in? Ditto for other repairs around the house.
You're right that taking care of someone is quite intimate. Although I wouldn't have a problem wiping her butt I do fear her mouth. She is not a nice person when she hurts. And that's the conversation we need to have with her.
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Post by debtheaven on May 19, 2011 19:08:01 GMT -5
That's a tough one, Bonnap. I think you've gotten some great advice. And although the money saved might be a "perk", obviously that's not why you'd be doing it.
A few questions: what if your Dad in SD starts to go downhill while you're living with your MIL?
Also, I know that you had a plan once you came back to the US to start living in your homes and selling some of them off. Are you OK with postponing that?
Are you seriously willing to take on three dogs with your cats if something happens to your MIL? Or would that be short-term? I must have missed something, but if you worry about them cohabiting in your MIL's house, what would change in your house?
Questions aside, I would probably try it out short-term and see how things go, since it seems to me that that's how you're leaning. I would leave my options open though. I would leave my own home empty (or rented out short-term) in the meantime, I certainly wouldn't commit myself long-term. One, you don't know how it will work out, and two, as others have said, if your MIL goes downhill quickly, you might find you have bitten off more than you are willing to chew.
But I think your conclusion that you (or DH) could only influence her if you tried it out is certainly correct. Without proof to the contrary, she seems like the type of woman who would be fiercely difficult to budge into another arrangement without good "proof". One could ostensibly argue that wetting one's self and not realizing it seems to be the beginning of "proof" though, as well as the beginning of a slippery slope.
Kudos and karma to you for wanting to make a go of it though.
ETA: My ex's grandmother moved to the south when her husband finally agreed. He died a month later. There was a woman taxi-driver who all the retired women absolutely loved, because she was a woman and they felt safe with her.
My ex in-laws used to fly down every few months to visit GM. Imagine their surprise when they looked at the GM's checkbook and found TONS of checks to this woman. Grandma's memory was getting worse, and every time the charming lady taxi driver drove her somewhere, she'd gently remind Grandma that there was no rush, but she hadn't yet paid her the previous ride or two. Grandma was mortified, so she'd immediately cut (yet another) check.
My friend's grandmother was sold a quantity of wine guaranteed to fill your cellar for 20 years, when she was in her early 80s. And she didn't even drink LOL, she bought into the guy's spiel that it was "for company". Happily my friend's dad caught it in time and was able to cancel the deal.
Sadly, people DO prey on the elderly. It is indeed a very valid fear.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 19:18:33 GMT -5
Thank you, GG and bonnap. Have you considered an elder concierge service or geriatric care manager? I think they'd be able to provide your MIL with a lot of the services you are looking for. Some of them also do mediation and create plans with the whole family so there is a framework in place for solving some of those dilemmas.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on May 19, 2011 19:52:54 GMT -5
Although I wouldn't have a problem wiping her butt I do fear her mouth. She is not a nice person when she hurts. And that's the conversation we need to have with her. But consider the mental aspect of aging as well. The 'conversation' may not be of any use. Your 76 year-old MIL may be far different from your future 86 year-old MIL, dementia hits everyone to varying degrees - the kindest sweetest person can become a vicious combative person with a string of loud swear words that will curl your hair. And no 'conversation' will fix it - you just have to crank up the empathy and remember who she once was as you wipe her butt and get your ears blasted.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on May 19, 2011 19:56:52 GMT -5
My friend's grandmother was sold a quantity of wine guaranteed to fill your cellar for 20 years, when she was in her early 80s. When my dad was well into his nineties we were getting packages from Publishers Clearing House regularly - magic cures, neat magnets, do-everything screwdrivers, etc. We went back thru his checkbook, appeared to be about $20 monthly. So we let it go, apparently he was getting catalogs and he was enjoying the 'good deals'.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 19, 2011 20:03:12 GMT -5
My grandmother was abused financially by her caretaker back in the 60's. The woman cleaned out her bank account and took anything of any value in the house.
Now it is my parents who my DS and I are trying to figure out what to do with. My mother has watched a sister with Ahlzheimer's pay her rent twice (lived in senior housing and they only cashed one), forget to eat or smoke (the smoking part was a good thing) and turn in to a hermit. My mother checked in on her at 9 AM every day. One morning, she said she had fallen and she had crawled to the phone waiting for my mother's call the next day. An ambulance was called and doctor refused to let her return to her home. Her son was in total denial about the Ahlzheimer's until then. She is now in a nursing home.
Every time anyone visits, she asks if they are taking her home. She packs her things up to go home at least once a week. She says they don't feed her, but she has put on weight and is thriving physically. She says they won't let her cook. She wants to drive her car.
I don't know what the solution is in any case.
My sister and offered our parents her home. She did it for her husband's parents until it was time for them to go to nursing homes and she will do it for ours. I couldn't do it. My sister has a tremendous heart and is willing to build an addition as their house doesn't have a shower or tub on the main level. We both want them some place where they have no stairs. They do have stairs now and we worry about them falling. They are both 87.
The Lifealert is a great idea, but my parents won't do it. You would think they would because a friend of theirs fell while going in to her crawl space for some tools and broke her hip. She was there for 2 days before some friends sent the police over to check. She has broken the same hip twice more and is now in assisted living. She told me she hates it, but what can she do. She had no children and husband is gone.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 19, 2011 20:12:59 GMT -5
bonnap, I do hope you will consider contacting an elder care case manager. A local hospital should be able to put you in touch with someone. These people are accustomed to dealing with the problems you'll be facing, and are aware of all the different sources of help in the community, both for your MIL and for the two of you. This person would be able to aid you in planning for the talk you need to have about current needs, as well as future needs, and how these will be dealt with.
My 89-year-old mother lives with me. She's in possession of her faculties, for the most part, but is somewhat forgetful. She's mobility challenged, and must use a walker to get around; therefore, she can't carry anything, or prepare her own meals. It's difficult for her to do her laundry, and she can't make her own bed. Those are things I do, along with handling her finances. It is often challenging, and she still feels it's her place to run my life. ;D It's not always easy to keep the smile on your face and just explain, quietly, that everything is under control.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 20:18:02 GMT -5
Debt, Thanks for your comments. Here's answers to your questions; Dad seems to be in pretty good shape although he doesn't go to the doctor regularly so who knows. He and his SO also live in a nearly 3000 sq.ft. house (but all on one level) with 3 extra bedrooms. Don't ask me why both he and my MIL bought the biggest houses they've ever owned in their late 60s DH's SO is also in good shape and her mother lived to nearly 100. They live on almost 3 acres and all that manual labor seems to be doing them good. I can (and do) stay with them for short visits when I'm in San Diego. The longer term plan was us buying that San Diego County house. Interestingly my dad expressed interest a few months ago into downsizing into the same PUD (Planned Unit Development) that MIL's dad used to own a unit in. It's only about 10 minutes away from our house. I suppose I had hoped that we could talk MIL into moving there too but I think she's declining faster than I thought. As to the dogs; they are actually pretty sweet as long as MIL isn't winding them up. When I was there 18 months ago she gave me a schedule to feed them fruits and vegetables every hour! Then she would start screaming at me from her room insisting that they weren't fed every 15 minutes. Yeah it was a nightmare. Fortunately her Vet friend came over to visit and firmly advised her that she was making everyone crazy and mentally screwing up her dogs. Thankfully that schedule has relaxed substantially. As to keeping all those pets separate, with some strategic improvements it can be done. The problem will be if MIL "forgets" to close the gate and the dogs invade the cats' interior space. The dogs are in pretty good health but are almost 10. Typically Corgis only live 12-14 years and will be slowing down. I WAS leaning towards giving it a go but Anne's post really makes the most sense. My back up plan was to limit the lease renewals at the Bay Area house to one year and to move to the vacation house (where I'm staying now) if things got really bad. I think an important part of the meeting next month is establishing benchmarks for when she goes into assisted living regardless of whether we live there or she has an in care home giver. Wetting oneself by itself isn't enough but being unable to go to the bathroom by oneself is probably a good benchmark. I wouldn't be so concerned about the incontinence (she did have bladder cancer after all) but the fact she didn't know she wet herself is of concern. Your story about the Taxi driver is an excellent example of my concern. She's re-done her yard three times in the 8 years she's been there, spending well over $100,000 in the process. Different contractors telling her the system is shoddy and it has to be re-done. We were a little concerned but she's always been a little OCD and it's her money. She LOVES her house and the garden (even though it's over the top maintenance-wise). It will break her heart to move from it. She was in apartments/condos most of her life so the garden brings her a lot of joy. So you can see why this process is so hard.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 20:24:36 GMT -5
"My friend's grandmother was sold a quantity of wine guaranteed to fill your cellar for 20 years, when she was in her early 80s."
Well when I first read Debt's story I was thinking, Dang, what an inheritance! Sorry your friend didn't inherit 20 years worth of wine, LOL!
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 19, 2011 20:30:34 GMT -5
When my grandmother passed away at age 94, my dad's family was looking at the expiration dates on all the magazines she was receiving. Some were 10 years in to the future. On some, they changed the addresses to the brothers and sisters who were interested and others got canceled. They figured she just sent money when they sent a bill.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 20:32:32 GMT -5
"the kindest sweetest person can become a vicious combative person with a string of loud swear words that will curl your hair" Since we don't have any kind or sweet people in the family there will be no surprises there! Seriously I have heard about those kinds of problems. I do think that the "conversation" we have to have is to set benchmarks on types of care. Right now MIL is lucid but is terribly concerned that she's starting to lose her mind. I've gently teased her that she's now among us mortals but it is a concern. Thanks for the suggestions about a geriatric concierge/manager. Consulting one of those could be helpful. Anne do you know anyone in the Portland area?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 21:10:59 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 21:31:55 GMT -5
Anne, you're the best. More Karma
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 22:22:21 GMT -5
mmhmm, There is a special place in heaven for you and folks like you (my sister took in our mother for five years after her Alzheimer's diagnosis). ...<karma>
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 22:45:47 GMT -5
It's a mutual admiration society.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 20, 2011 0:50:55 GMT -5
Aww, thanks! For me, it's a pleasure. I'm fortunate enough to have had good, loving parents who did their very best for me and my younger brother. Now, I have the chance to give back, and that's a real honor, as far as I'm concerned. My father died about ten years ago, suffering from vascular dementia. It got so bad we had no choice but to put him in a local nursing home. It was one at which I do volunteer work, so I knew the care he'd receive would be top-notch, and it was. Thankfully, mother is able to see to most of her needs. It bothers her not to have her full independence, but she's adjusted beautifully, really. We do well together, and we're really lucky. Not everyone has this opportunity.
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