mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on May 17, 2011 12:50:50 GMT -5
Personally, krickitt, I don't like to see this type of thread on this board, either. It has absolutely zip to do with politics. It's started for one purpose: to allow one group to throw rocks at another group. It's sandbox mentality in a nutshell, and I'd just as soon see this sort of thing prohibited here; yet, I don't want to impose my wishes on others who post here. If there are enough who object to this sort of thing, we may see it disappear.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on May 17, 2011 12:51:26 GMT -5
Then I too am obligated to say YOU are wrong and a fool, see goes both ways.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 17, 2011 12:55:14 GMT -5
My job is to proclaim the truth. I have to give an account for the opportunities taken, or missed to tell the truth. You're accountable for what you do with it. Hell is a real place, and it's a place of memory. If you remain too stubborn to accept Christ, you will go there and while there for all eternity with no escape-- you will remember this opportunity. I hope that doesn't happen- but again, it's not up to me what you choose to do with the truth. It's just my duty to tell it.
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Post by ed1066 on May 17, 2011 13:10:04 GMT -5
Is it in the bible to be a hypocrite? You should read it sometime and find out...
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 17, 2011 13:13:49 GMT -5
Friends, friends. Let us stop this feuding and agree that we are all glorious fools. ;D Purty weak potatoes. You're arguing that Hawking placed societies on an arbitrary continuum (measuring some unknown quantity) and stated "some societies are further to the right than others on this unknown continuum". I have difficulty interpreting "Some societies have greater value" to mean "Some societies have a greater value on the chicken McNugget index." And Drama's theory that Hawking works on such a high level that he is no longer capable of writing comprehensible English doesn't inspire much confidence either. 'Value' is synonymous with 'worth' in any subjective context (unless explicitly defined otherwise). I maintain that Hawking was probably talking about ideas rather than societies. That is: about social memes that evolve, survive, or perish. He just picked an unfortunate phraseology. But who knows? Maybe you, Drama, and I will be outed as Hawking apologists when he goes off his nut in 2013 talking about the "rise of the ubermensche".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 13:20:53 GMT -5
LOL!!! Virgil-- can I ask you publicly to come help moderate our board (since you won't answer my PMs LOL!!) or is it just too whacked out crazy for you here??? ;D
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shelby
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Post by shelby on May 17, 2011 13:26:16 GMT -5
"I maintain that Hawking was probably talking about ideas rather than societies. That is: about social memes that evolve, survive, or perish. He just picked an unfortunate phraseology." This is what I was getting at earlier, glad you realize he is not a Nazi(maybe).
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 17, 2011 14:00:57 GMT -5
Krickitt: I had 'Reply to Krickitt' on my to-do for this week. (OK, I admit I got lazy.)
Alas, I'm nowhere near 'electable' on P&M. I only come here once in a while, and I find myself embroiled in a philosophical debate every time I do.
US politics, which is theoretically what this board is about, don't interest me much. I consider the Republicans and Democrats to be the same party vis a vis any issues that matter: plans to eliminate the deficit (trimming $50 billion off a $1.6 trillion yearly shortfall ain't gonna cut it, boys and girls), US military overspending, US military operations in Afghanistan, Libya, and Pakistan, and US border protection.
Although there seems to be no shortage of... ehmm... "misguided" views on P&M, it isn't the job of the moderators to be thought police. And in fairness to the current mods, I've seen a few posts reported against both sides of the political spectrum where I would've gone a-bannin', but Tenn, Demin, and Diver have dealt with the matter less drastically.
Shelby: You don't have to be a Nazi to espouse social Darwinism. The Reich just happens to be one of the more horrific examples of the theory put into practice. I agree with you that Hawking surely isn't a social Darwinist, but that doesn't absolve us from monitoring what he says. Semper Fidelis, as they say.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 14:05:20 GMT -5
... sigh... I tried...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 17, 2011 15:46:07 GMT -5
My job is to proclaim the truth. I have to give an account for the opportunities taken, or missed to tell the truth. You're accountable for what you do with it. Hell is a real place, and it's a place of memory. If you remain too stubborn to accept Christ, you will go there and while there for all eternity with no escape-- you will remember this opportunity. I hope that doesn't happen- but again, it's not up to me what you choose to do with the truth. It's just my duty to tell it. But I still don't understand why your belief is the truth, but my belief, or Mohammed Ahmed's belief, or Jeremiah Wright's belief, or whoever's belief isn't the truth. There are tons of religious scholars who disagree, so if they can't tell me what "the truth" is, I don't think anyone knows, and will know until we are dead. Do I think there is a God? Do I think there is a Heaven? I hope so? Is there more than one way to get there? I hope so. Would it be fair to only allow those who are born again/saved into heaven when religion is so highly influenced by culture? I think so. We won't know until we die. I hope to see you in Heaven, but we just might all end up rotting in the ground.
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Post by lakhota on May 17, 2011 19:14:36 GMT -5
Insider: "The Christian Right is Aiming to Destroy All Things Public"The Right has pushed for the state to hand over its public duties to private companies, including military operations, prisons, health care, public transport, and all the rest. The following is an excerpt from Frank Schaeffer's new book, Sex, Mom, and God: How the Bible's Strange Take on Sex Led to Crazy Politics -- and How I Learned to Love Women (and Jesus) Anyway (Da Capo Press, 2011). Raised in Switzerland in l'Abri, a utopian community and spiritual school his evangelical parents founded, Schaeffer was restless and aware even at a young age that "my life was being defined by my parent's choices." Still, he took to "the family business" well, following his dad as he became one of the "best-known evangelical leaders in the U.S." on whirlwind speaking tours. While rubbing shoulders with Pat Robertson, James Dobson and Jerry Falwell, Schaeffer witnessed the birth of the Christian anti-abortion movement, and became an evangelical writer, speaker and star in his own right. Much More: www.alternet.org/belief/150936/insider%3A_%22the_christian_right_is_aiming_to_destroy_all_things_public%22/?page=entire
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Post by ty on May 17, 2011 19:19:10 GMT -5
I know the truth. You all have been had and scammed by these charlatans. They need yo to believe in this nonsense so they can buy their cars, expensive homes and all these other material things they claim the bible and god was against.
Just open your eyes and mind, and see the bs you have been fed.
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on May 17, 2011 19:25:19 GMT -5
I know the truth. You all have been had and scammed by these charlatans. They need yo to believe in this nonsense so they can buy their cars, expensive homes and all these other material things they claim the bible and god was against. Just open your eyes and mind, and see the bs you have been fed. My religion has never once asked me for any kind of monetary donation. Or is is just Christians you hate so much?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 17, 2011 19:30:00 GMT -5
"Some of us know the truth and we care. It's that simple."
Nobody knows- it is that simple. You are convinced and you have faith, so are the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. I find the idea of heaven as some exclusive club for only one group of people that follows a particular faith repugnant.
"If you remain too stubborn to accept Christ, you will go there and while there for all eternity with no escape"
Also repugnant. Let's see- a loving God that has no problem with eternal damnation- only man could come up with that. Hell is nothing but a scare tactic to keep the membership up- better see you on Sunday or else.
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on May 17, 2011 19:42:18 GMT -5
Hawking has already admitted that his previous writings about black holes are incorrect. He may be the most intelligent person alive, but he is still fallible.
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Post by moxie on May 17, 2011 20:00:50 GMT -5
^I just can't believe that he is STILL ALIVE! AMAZING!!
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 17, 2011 21:12:43 GMT -5
"Some of us know the truth and we care. It's that simple." Nobody knows- it is that simple. You are convinced and you have faith, so are the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. I find the idea of heaven as some exclusive club for only one group of people that follows a particular faith repugnant. "If you remain too stubborn to accept Christ, you will go there and while there for all eternity with no escape" Also repugnant. Let's see- a loving God that has no problem with eternal damnation- only man could come up with that. Hell is nothing but a scare tactic to keep the membership up- better see you on Sunday or else. Only man can come up with the idea that you can do whatever you want without any regard to consequences.
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Post by lakhota on May 17, 2011 21:16:20 GMT -5
I believe that applies throughout the animal kingdom. However, I think most humans know there are consequences - just not the supernatural kind.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 17, 2011 21:50:10 GMT -5
Only man can come up with the idea that you can do whatever you want without any regard to consequences. Who doesn't think there are consequences? Eternal torture in a fire pit though- especially for trivial stuff like- I don't know- being brought up in a different faith? What kind of sick person would come up with something like that? Judgmental people that claim to know God better bring some ice water if hell does exist- gonna have to do a little time.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 17, 2011 21:52:34 GMT -5
Only man can come up with the idea that you can do whatever you want without any regard to consequences. Who doesn't think there are consequences? Eternal torture in a fire pit though- especially for trivial stuff like- I don't know- being brought up in a different faith? What kind of sick person would come up with something like that? Judgmental people that claim to know God better bring some ice water if hell does exist- gonna have to do a little time. You insult people and then call them judgemental for getting upset. Classic...
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Post by lakhota on May 17, 2011 22:05:23 GMT -5
First Habitable Planet Close To Being Confirmed By Scientists Scientists may be just steps from discovering the first habitable planet beyond our own. Gliese 581d, a planet orbiting the red-dwarf star Gliese, may be the first real candidate for human expansion. That is, if it didn't take 3,000 lifetimes to get there, according to Science Daily. More: www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/17/first-habitable-planet-2030_n_862785.html
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 22:09:00 GMT -5
Maybe Hawking's chosen can go there..
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 18, 2011 8:20:40 GMT -5
You insult people and then call them judgemental for getting upset. Classic... Didn't insult anyone- just pointing out that judgmental know it alls are subject to their own fantasies. I find it real strange- that, as a lowly human I have the capacity to forgive people- yet in some religions, hell is waiting for non believers- not even sinners. That's it- not accepting a particular savior and it's eternal damnation. So basically, humans are more forgiving than God? God does things to people humans find disgusting or sadistic over trivial stuff? If you believe that you have a very warped mind- probably due to years of indoctrination.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on May 18, 2011 9:09:59 GMT -5
"Stephen Hawkings would be dead if he lived in England."-Investors Business Daily
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on May 18, 2011 9:28:26 GMT -5
The problem with the issues of religion is that most of the things like forever burning in a fiery pit forever is not from God but centuries old stories of terror created by man to scare the begeesus out of people to get them to convert to what ever religon being sold at the time. For centuries every happening or major disaster was blamed on an act of God. Even the earthquake in Japan one government official said God was punishing Japan. This is what gives a belief of a higher being a bad name and not biblical at all. The bible does say that the wicked will be punished in the end but how and when is taken way out of context by many pervayers of the scriptures. Again the old method of trying to scare the populace into converting to their brand of religon.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 18, 2011 9:37:01 GMT -5
"Some of us know the truth and we care. It's that simple." Nobody knows- it is that simple. You are convinced and you have faith, so are the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. I find the idea of heaven as some exclusive club for only one group of people that follows a particular faith repugnant. "If you remain too stubborn to accept Christ, you will go there and while there for all eternity with no escape" Also repugnant. Let's see- a loving God that has no problem with eternal damnation- only man could come up with that. Hell is nothing but a scare tactic to keep the membership up- better see you on Sunday or else. Well, you can find it repugnant that there's only one fire exit, and you can stand there while the building burns and argue with the architecht and eventually burn to death-- or you can take the exit. God know, because He IS the Truth: John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". God has revealed Himself to us: Psalm 19: 1 The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship. 2 Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known. 3 They speak without a sound or word; their voice is never heard. 4 Yet their message has gone throughout the earth, and their words to all the world.
Romans 1:18-21 declares, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”
Romans 2:14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
There are more than a dozen other ways God has revealed Himself.
But the more important point I'd like to get back to is this notion that jusitice is somehow "repugnant" to you. I find this repugnant. Of course there's a moral order. Repugnant would be an "anything goes" universe with no final accountability for evil.
Heaven is NOT an exclusive club. It's wide open. You simply have to choose it.
John 3:16 says "For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life".
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
You can flail around and be all 'offended' by the Truth, but it will not change it.
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Post by ty on May 18, 2011 9:40:30 GMT -5
The problem with the issues of religion is that most of the things like forever burning in a fiery pit forever is not from God but centuries old stories of terror created by man to scare the begeesus out of people to get them to convert to what ever religon being sold at the time. For centuries every happening or major disaster was blamed on an act of God. Even the earthquake in Japan one government official said God was punishing Japan. This is what gives a belief of a higher being a bad name and not biblical at all. The bible does say that the wicked will be punished in the end but how and when is taken way out of context by many pervayers of the scriptures. Again the old method of trying to scare the populace into converting to their brand of religon.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 18, 2011 10:11:48 GMT -5
You'll get no argument from me that organized religion has been used to justify everything from war, to murder, to genocide, to slavery, rape and many other evils. And that includes Christianity as an institution. Jesus made that pretty clear in His public ministry calling religious leaders a "generation of vipers" who served their father, the devil. In his ONLY public display of anger, he was not rousting a cat house or gay bar-- he was chasing money changers out of the Temple. Don't let religion and religious leaders dissuade you from seeking the Truth-- seeking God yourself. Because in the end, you're not going to be asked about them, you're going to be asked about you.
Judgment is basically a, "How would you like to pay for that?" situation. It's gonna be you, or the lamb. Choose the Lamb. The only thing unfair or outrageous about Christianity is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. Jesus took the punishment I was destined to receive. He took my shame, guilt, and death. And Jesus offers that gift to whoever will accept Him.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 18, 2011 10:17:51 GMT -5
You'll get no argument from me that organized religion has been used to justify everything from war, to murder, to genocide, to slavery, rape and many other evils. And that includes Christianity as an institution. Jesus made that pretty clear in His public ministry calling religious leaders a "generation of vipers" who served their father, the devil. In his ONLY public display of anger, he was not rousting a cat house or gay bar-- he was chasing money changers out of the Temple. Don't let religion and religious leaders dissuade you from seeking the Truth-- seeking God yourself. Because in the end, you're not going to be asked about them, you're going to be asked about you. Judgment is basically a, "How would you like to pay for that?" situation. It's gonna be you, or the lamb. Choose the Lamb. The only thing unfair or outrageous about Christianity is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. Jesus took the punishment I was destined to receive. He took my shame, guilt, and death. And Jesus offers that gift to whoever will accept Him. If someone was born in China or Saudi Arabia and never had the chance to "choose the Lamb" why is it OK to eternally damn them to Hell?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 18, 2011 10:19:45 GMT -5
"But the more important point I'd like to get back to is this notion that jusitice is somehow "repugnant" to you. I find this repugnant. Of course there's a moral order. Repugnant would be an "anything goes" universe with no final accountability for evil."
So anyone of a different faith is not moral? Is evil? Will face justice for believing differently? Explain how you are any different from the Taliban....Is it just to punish Jews because they don't accept Christ?
'Heaven is NOT an exclusive club. It's wide open. You simply have to choose it.'
If the only choice is your particular God, based on your particular interpretation, of your preferred religious text, then that is very exclusive- and very unjust.
Eternal hell is not compatible with a just God- especially if you want to play the pick the right faith game. The only reason you are Christian is because of your culture, probably born and raised that way. I'm looking into Latvian Orthodox myself.
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