Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 18, 2011 11:05:21 GMT -5
"I remember several years ago, some tv show or magazine doing a piece on how a SAHM would cost more to replace than the income the working dad makes, simply because the SAHM is 100 different jobs that would cost a fortune to hire someone to do."
Then I guess I'm grosssly underpaid because I do most of the stuff a SAHM does on top of working full time. SAHM's seem to think they have the market cornered on things like cooking, laundry, cleaning, paying bills ect.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 11:08:33 GMT -5
By YOU it isn't but from what you say about her, your odds seem to not be good. And by ME I would be the last person to stay in a marriage where I am miserable and unhappy. Again, choices, choices, choices. her spending is acceptable now because she does bring in the income to support her share of the expenses, pay down the student loans and contribute 30% to retirement. That will change quickly if she thinks it would be ok for her to stay home while I pay over $1,000 /month for an education she had and now not using. Again, I don't know how it goes in other marriages, but just because my wife says she wants to do something doesn't mean I have to agree with it. The only way she would get to stay home was if she manage to make those 100K student loans disappear. She better start playing the lottery or ask her mom to pay it off
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2011 11:34:05 GMT -5
...:::"but everyone needs to accept the idea that someday the financial picture might change and the SAHS might need to go back to work":::...
But, but... I thought only a woman was allowed to say "things have changed, I want a new (better) deal"! If a man says it, he is told "we agreed on <x> and I expect you to live up to it!"
...:::"Having a spouse stay at home can infinitely reduce the stress on the working partner.":::...
Seconded, and I've seen it at both ends of the economic spectrum. Of course, its really only beneficial if the SAH actually DOES the things to save money/run the house. If the worker gets home and still has to do all the chores, then the SAH provides no value whatsoever.
...:::"imply because the SAHM is 100 different jobs that would cost a fortune to hire someone to do":::...
That tired tripe just won't ever die. They manipulate the results by adding "CEO" as one of the jobs the SAH does, and assigning it a ridiculously high salary that in reality only a handful of the most publicized CEOs actually make. A SAHP is extremely valuable, I just don't think you can assign a dollar value to it.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on May 18, 2011 11:44:23 GMT -5
BTW, do you honestly think your wife is going to go back to work after having a baby? We will find out in 3 years won't we I love how you all decide that the husband/father has no say in it. Just bend down and agree to just take it. LOL ;D ;D My wife spend 6 years in undergrad/grad school and now studying/preparing to start a PhD program next year. Also let's not forget that she has a massive amount of student loans. Let's just say being a stay at home mom is not even up for negotiations. Actually it was all up to my husband if he wanted to stay home with DS. I had no problems if he wanted to work, but I also have no problems (ok I really like it) that he stays home
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 18, 2011 11:48:58 GMT -5
And in the long run it has been the best thing for our kiddo. I've been deeply involved with him and his schooling since day 1. I've had to help make up for times when hubby didn't see kiddo most of hte week because of working nights. Which btw, pays much better than working during the day in his industry.
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Kind of sad that your husband is so dependent on you do cook and clean for him and couldn't do these things himself. I do it all, cook, clean, laundry, shop, pay the bills, manage the finances and more. I prefer being a well rounded person and know that I can take care of myself.
*sigh* Why do people have to be so rude and judgmental? Some households do very well with a SAHP. Others prefer to have both parents working.
There's nothing inherently wrong with either choice. I happen to think that SAHP is riskier, but some risks in life are well worth taking! I just don't understand why people are so insecure in their own choices that they constantly have to tear down those of others. Do what you want, what's best for your family, and stop feeling like your choices need to be justified to the entire world - or that because they're the best choices for you, they're automatically the best choices for other people!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 18, 2011 11:52:19 GMT -5
"I remember several years ago, some tv show or magazine doing a piece on how a SAHM would cost more to replace than the income the working dad makes, simply because the SAHM is 100 different jobs that would cost a fortune to hire someone to do."
That article was crap (and this isn't a general statement about SAHMs, just a comment on that particular article). It said that SAHMs performed jobs like psychologist, nurse, housecleaner, gourmet chef, tutor, etc. Some of those are legit, but most of them pointed to highly-paid careers that most SAHMs are not qualified to do - or even if they're qualified for one, they wouldn't be qualified for all of them.
It was just a silly piece of fluff to make insecure SAHMs feel better about themselves. The only way being a SAHM would replace an income of $100k plus is if it enabled the working partner to travel more, or something else that doubled his income and he couldn't do if they were both working. And that's how it is for some families, but not the vast majority of them. In most households, SAHPs save some money but nothing anywhere near that much.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 18, 2011 11:55:40 GMT -5
But, but... I thought only a woman was allowed to say "things have changed, I want a new (better) deal"! If a man says it, he is told "we agreed on <x> and I expect you to live up to it!"
That's not what I think. If a family situation changes and it would bring more value to the household for a SAHP to go back to work, I think that they need to go back to work - male or female. And it frankly shocks me that so many SAHPs don't seem prepared for this eventuality. I can understand enjoying staying at home, but you shouldn't do it at the expense of your family.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 12:04:41 GMT -5
We will find out in 3 years won't we I love how you all decide that the husband/father has no say in it. Just bend down and agree to just take it. LOL ;D ;D My wife spend 6 years in undergrad/grad school and now studying/preparing to start a PhD program next year. Also let's not forget that she has a massive amount of student loans. Let's just say being a stay at home mom is not even up for negotiations. Actually it was all up to my husband if he wanted to stay home with DS. I had no problems if he wanted to work, but I also have no problems (ok I really like it) that he stays home Yes it what you are missing : you support his decision to be the stay at home parent. In the case giving in the OP, while maybe the husband might have agreed to it at the beginning, he no longers agrees to it. There is no way I would be a stay at home parent if my wife did not support such decision and same goes for her. Both partners have to sign off on it and support it, not one partner going: I am going to stay home and you just have yo accept it.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 18, 2011 12:19:28 GMT -5
As I said, it works best for OUR home. I also pointed out that my husband works nights, which can be an entirely different world when it comes to what home life is like. He has stuck with working nights for almost 20 years because it pays more than working days in his industry.
I didn't try and say that what works for us is what others should be doing....just that it works for US. And that I have no shame or regrets in being a SAHM.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 18, 2011 12:24:58 GMT -5
"It is called division of labor." "One of the benefits of being married vs being single is you get a partner with whom you can share duties or pick up the slack where you drop the ball "
There's a difference between division of labor and not even being able to feed yourself, pay a bill, or do laundry because you're so wholly and totally dependent on your partner to do those things. It's like those women whose husbands die and you find out they can't even drive or know how to pay a bill.
I'm not saying division of labor is bad, but you still need to be a well rounded person and know how to handle the basics of living. I just find it sad that some people can't do that.
"*sigh* Why do people have to be so rude and judgmental? Some households do very well with a SAHP. Others prefer to have both parents working"
So you think it's just fine and dandy that an adult can't even operate a washing machine? I'm not tearing down the stay at home lifestyle as much as commenting that people need to be well rounded and adaptable.
You've said it yourself that the SAHS needs to be flexible and responsive to the needs of the family by being ready to return to work at a moment's notice. I'm saying the same thing, that everyone needs to know how to cook, clean, and do laundry, pay bills to be flexible and not rely on their partner to know how to do these things. Everyone needs to be flexible and willing to work, do laundry, pay bills ect.
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sil
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Post by sil on May 18, 2011 12:29:28 GMT -5
Agree that it's about Division of Labor. Spouses should spend roughly the same amount of time on "labor", regardless of whether one spouse participates in more or greater income-generating labor.
I think what is lacking with many households is a common definition of "labor" Obviously the time you spend at the office counts, but if you don't have an agreement on whether other activites count as "labor" then you're going to have conflicts.
Every family has to have their own agreement - for DH and me the following count as "labor" - Commute time - "required" after hours business activity (e.g. dinner with a client) - Business travel - occasional "optional" after hours business activity (e.g. meeting up with co-workers after work once in a blue moon....perhaps in order to drink a Blue Moon) - getting kids ready for school/daycare/activities taking kids to or from school/daycare/activities - infant / toddler care anytime they arent napping - homework, homeschool, reading or other teaching activities with your kids - cooking - cleaning (doing laundry only counts if you're the one who folds/puts away the clothes!) - yard work - house, car, clothing repair/maintenance - grocery shopping - family finances (including paying the bills, but also the Extreme Coupon thread won me over....if someone does this well, I'd count this as value-add labor) - active work on home-based businesses that add to the families' bottom line
Things that do not count include: - supervision of older children - hobby "businesses" that do not bring in net revenue that benefits the whole family - volunteer work that does not benefit the family - DIY jobs that do not benefit the family - "Me" time - regular "optional" after hours work activity
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Post by stl76 on May 18, 2011 12:56:59 GMT -5
"So you think it's just fine and dandy that an adult can't even operate a washing machine? I'm not tearing down the stay at home lifestyle as much as commenting that people need to be well rounded and adaptable.
You've said it yourself that the SAHS needs to be flexible and responsive to the needs of the family by being ready to return to work at a moment's notice. I'm saying the same thing, that everyone needs to know how to cook, clean, and do laundry, pay bills to be flexible and not rely on their partner to know how to do these things. Everyone needs to be flexible and willing to work, do laundry, pay bills ect. "
I agree with everything you said in this post and others. Every adult should be able to take care of themselves financially and otherwise. You never know what life will bring.
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on May 18, 2011 13:08:08 GMT -5
{ 2) is he going to step up to 50% of everything once she goes ft }
Amazing how these threads take on alife of their own. Discussion is great, even if it's goes off the track of the OP.
However, when discussing aspects of the OP, I some times wonder if posters even bother to read the threads.
He will probably kick it up, but she is still going to be responsible for a heck of a lot, I would say 80%. I could be wrong, but knowing him, he has no patience, I don't see it lasting.
They have a busy life now, and they live quite well. He wants her to take on more so the next time he wants the biggest and brand new best, they will have the added income.
She would rather be budget conscious, forgo the expensive lifestyle, and not add anymore stress into their lives, and her going FT will do that. And I still think she will get the brunt of it, because nothing changed when she went PT.
As it stands now, he will be resentful if she doesn't work, and if he doesn't start contributing a lot more, she is going to be resentful, especially if the added income gets spent by him.
I think the one lesson to be learned is that is sure makes for a happier marriage when both spouses have the same goals in life.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 13:13:47 GMT -5
He wants her to take on more so the next time he wants the biggest and brand new best, they will have the added income.
Sounds like DH and his siblings. FIL and his 5 brothers all competed with each other when it came to stuff, DH and his siblings absorbed that.
They missed one key point though, that FIL and company had MONEY to do those things.
So they've all gotten themselves into trouble over the years. DH has managed to get out of it and SIL has somewhat, but BIL is still going.
When I say I would refuse to work two jobs it is because I know that DH would never be happy because one of the other two would then go out and buy something bigger and badder than what he currently has. The cycle would then be rinsed and repeated.
Fortunately he has come to recognize that about himself and deals with it accordingly. But when we it looked like we were headed towards marriage I made clear that spiraling us down into debt and ever increasing job loads just so he could engage in pissing contests with his brother wasn't happen.
I think the one lesson to be learned is that is sure makes for a happier marriage when both spouses have the same goals in life.
Pretty much.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on May 18, 2011 13:20:00 GMT -5
"So you think it's just fine and dandy that an adult can't even operate a washing machine? I'm not tearing down the stay at home lifestyle as much as commenting that people need to be well rounded and adaptable. You've said it yourself that the SAHS needs to be flexible and responsive to the needs of the family by being ready to return to work at a moment's notice. I'm saying the same thing, that everyone needs to know how to cook, clean, and do laundry, pay bills to be flexible and not rely on their partner to know how to do these things. Everyone needs to be flexible and willing to work, do laundry, pay bills ect. Is anyone saying that their spouse doesn't know HOW to do those things? I don't think so. It is that things work better if there is a division of labor. At any given time, my DH and I could swap roles and adequately get the job done (except for the fact that his income doesn't pay the bills, but in all other chores).
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 18, 2011 13:26:44 GMT -5
"Is anyone saying that their spouse doesn't know HOW to do those things?"
Actually, Steff said this in post 105. That's where my line of comments stemmed from.
"To be honest, hubby wouldn't know how to order a pizza over hte phone, much less online if he was starving. He paid for the new washer & drier, but he stands and stares at it like it's a monster from Mars going "HUH?"."
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on May 18, 2011 13:37:59 GMT -5
I always wanted a wife that was a housewife. I don't have kids so don't need a SAHP spouse but just a wife. She could cook, clean, pick out gifts for my mom, mail Christmas cards and do other things that need done.
I was a housewife for a few years and always shoveled the snow and did other things to make his life easier. He never needed to mow a lawn or cook or clean or buy food. He didn't know how to run a washing machine until we had been married about 15 years. He dug up a plant and gave it to a neighbor getting dirt on his shirt, she said I was going to kill him but he said I wouldn't because it would be clean when I got home from work. So he learned to use the washer and dryer it isn't rocket science. After that he washed his own work clothing and all bathroom towels. The washer was in the bathroom and all the towels were the same color so we stored the dirty ones in the washer. To wash something else you ran a load of towels first so being all matching they didn't need sorted.
Being a housewife is not hard at all, I could do all the cooking, cleaning, yard work, laundry and shopping in an hour or two a day. I was too bored to continue. SAHP would be better because then you would have kids to play with and take care of.
I think a housewife would be worth about minimum wage and a SAHP about that plus day care cost unless the kids were special needs or they had parents or someone that needed a caregiver. Then it would be worth 30-40K in saved cost.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 18, 2011 13:50:44 GMT -5
I didn't try and say that what works for us is what others should be doing....just that it works for US. And that I have no shame or regrets in being a SAHM.
It might just be semantics, but talking about how you were "deeply involved" with your son's schooling from day one struck me as rude, because it implies that working parents can't be - and many are.
I'm glad your choices worked out for you, but different people make different ones and it works out fine for them too.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 18, 2011 13:53:19 GMT -5
You've said it yourself that the SAHS needs to be flexible and responsive to the needs of the family by being ready to return to work at a moment's notice. I'm saying the same thing, that everyone needs to know how to cook, clean, and do laundry, pay bills to be flexible and not rely on their partner to know how to do these things. Everyone needs to be flexible and willing to work, do laundry, pay bills ect.
I agree with that whole statement, I just wasn't crazy about the way you worded it. I thought it was rude and condescending. If her husband works crazy hours outside the home, I wouldn't expect him to be able to pick up everything within the home at a moment's notice.
DF would also have a pretty hard time juggling all the bills if I were to suddenly croak - because that's my domain. Likewise, I never have and likely never will learn to cook all that well, so we eat better with him around than I would on my own. When I lived alone, I had a few staple meals that I made but I also ate out a lot.
So people bring different things to the relationship - it doesn't mean that people can't adapt, just that it's hard sometimes when you have to do it at a moment's notice.
ETA: I do agree that not being able to order a pizza is really weird and probably not good. Who doesn't know how to order a freaking pizza?!
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steff
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Post by steff on May 18, 2011 14:08:55 GMT -5
Ok, I give up....sorry I said anything....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 18, 2011 14:21:11 GMT -5
Actually, I never have ordered a pizza over the phone.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 18, 2011 14:24:08 GMT -5
Actually, I never have ordered a pizza over the phone. It doesn't really matter. It's not rocket science. You call the number they ask for your order, then they ask if it's delivery or pick up, your address, cash or card, and your card number if you're paying that way. It's not really something you have to be experienced to do. However, in our current culture it's totally fine to imply that a man would be too stupid to figure out something that easy. God forbid you said the same thing about a woman though.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on May 18, 2011 14:28:42 GMT -5
Personally. when I was single and out of college, it was so much easier to do all the chores than it is now. I had 2 bedroom apartment that I could clean while doing laundry on Friday night. Bills took less time to pay. Meals, it was just me and I would do something very simple otherwise I would have leftovers for a month.
It is just a lot more complicated and time consuming with a husband, a house, 10 acres, and a toddler.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 14:30:35 GMT -5
God forbid you said the same thing about a woman though. DH thought for the past couple of years I was incapable of taking out the garbage. No, I just really really hate doing it and will foist it onto someone else as soon as I can.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 18, 2011 14:39:28 GMT -5
God forbid you said the same thing about a woman though. DH thought for the past couple of years I was incapable of taking out the garbage. No, I just really really hate doing it and will foist it onto someone else as soon as I can. I'm incapable of mowing the lawn with a gas mower. I can't generate enough power (or whatever) pulling the cord to start it. Last time we were buying a lawn mower I told DH if he wanted me to help with the lawn, he needed to either buy electric or something with a push start/turn key. Or a walk behind one... He bought gas with a pull cord. I take that to mean I don't need to deal with the lawn.
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on May 18, 2011 15:24:28 GMT -5
I'm kind of new, so just jumping in here.
Dh and I don't have any kids of our own. We both work very full-time. He has kids from a previous marriage who live about 20 minutes away. We drive out there at least three time a week to take them to sports practice, go to school plays, etc. We also help out with coaching their teams and such. Because they don't live with us we don't deal with the daily messes or laundry kids create, meal prep for the whole family, homework, baths etc. This is partially offset by travel time it takes to get to them for their activities, but I'm sure afternoons/evenings in their home with their mother is much more busy and rushed than what we have going on at our house.
Even with the time we do spend on kids (which is less than what it would be if we had them full time) it is really hard for both of us to be working full time. They are at the age where they all have different places to be at 4:30, and one of us has to get off early to get them places. I honestly can't imagine working full time if we had kids that age in our own home. I don't know how it would all get done and how any of us would have the quality of life I am looking for.
To all of you mothers who work full time and manage to make that all work, I applaud you. I'm not being snarky at all. You are truly supermoms in my opinion. I couldn't do it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 15:32:13 GMT -5
According to DH I am incapable of vacuuming properly. So it became his chore after the last time he bitched at me for not doing it right. He is very careful not to complain anymore in case he winds up with another chore being dumped in his lap.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on May 18, 2011 15:49:21 GMT -5
I had to learn to properly fold towels for DH. We were dating and one evening I was up at his house and start folding his towells and he had to refold them because they didn't fit in his drawer properly.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 18, 2011 15:52:06 GMT -5
According to DH I am incapable of vacuuming properly. So it became his chore after the last time he bitched at me for not doing it right. He is very careful not to complain anymore in case he winds up with another chore being dumped in his lap. This is why I don't wash DH's work clothes any more. He b!tched the first 2 times I did and I just thought "Ok, I'm done trying with this." We were dating at the time though and I was trying to be nice since he was letting me do my laundry at his place instead of going to the laundry mat.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 18, 2011 17:45:54 GMT -5
This is why I don't wash DH's work clothes any more. He b!tched the first 2 times I did and I just thought "Ok, I'm done trying with this." We were dating at the time though and I was trying to be nice since he was letting me do my laundry at his place instead of going to the laundry mat. LOL, DH complains about my laundry, too... apparently I don't use enough fabric softener. Funny thing is, when we were living with his parents, I got lectured by FIL because I put fabric softener into a load of his hunting clothes Screw laundry!
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