|
Post by straydog on Apr 29, 2011 0:19:23 GMT -5
I just read this article today and it is pretty frightening. Especially if you have a chronic pain condition and need a regular prescription of pain killers. According to the article, the Obama administration is pushing for all states to adopt Computerized Prescription Drug Monitoring Programs (PDMP). Quote from the article: "The same thing is true of the Obama administrations proposed regulations that doctors be barred from prescribing narcotic pain killers until they receive "training on the importance of appropriate prescription and dispensing of opioids to prevent adverse effects, diversions, and addiction." So, now federal and state bureaucrats are going to be training your doctor on what he can and cannot prescribe and when? I guess that medical school isn't that important anymore. So if the Obama administration forces the states (withholding of fed funds) to get them to adopt PDMPs, does that mean that your doctor, or yourself, could receive a visit, or be requested for an interview - just to see if you fit their profile of a 'prescription drug abuser' or addict? And supposing you are in pain most of the week? And you have to take your meds just to keep out of being in agony? Are they then going to prohibit you from your prescription if you fit their 'profile'? Regardless of how it leaves you? Just as bad, supposing a cop runs your plates. Will this information about your prescription come up on his screen? Well if it does, then it's probably going to be an instant pull-over. Remember, they are no longer 'peace officers', they are now 'law enforcement officers'. So even if you waited the correct amount of time for the prescription to wear off, he could still drag you into the station for a blood test, and if it's still in your blood stream, even if you were OK to drive; you could still be in hot water. There is a solution to this. If you live in a state that has adopted the PDMP, then title your car under an LLC. If you live in a state like N.Y. where they make it difficult, then spend a little more and title your car under a trust. Just give it a common name that has nothing to do with you (green mountain trust). Drug Control vs. Pain Control: A Crackdown On Opioid Prescriptions Will Hurt Patients patriotpost.us/opinion/jacob-sullum/2011/04/28/drug-control-vs-pain-control-a-crackdown-on-opioid-prescriptions-will-hurt-patients/
|
|
zipity
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 0:32:17 GMT -5
Posts: 1,101
|
Post by zipity on Apr 29, 2011 0:37:49 GMT -5
the Obama administration is pushing for all states to adopt Computerized Prescription Drug Monitoring Programs
Unfortunately the article you posted doesn't back up it's claim that the administration is doing anything to get states to adopt PDMPs. In fact a quick google shows that states have been implementing PDMPs for a number of years.
|
|
|
Post by ty on Apr 29, 2011 0:52:16 GMT -5
Wouldn't affect me. I don't have a habit of popping pills or doing drugs. Those that feel the need to live on them on a daily basis need to learn to accept pain. 'm sure some people may need them, but if you are in so much pain that you have to rely on drugs that make you sleepy all day long, you might as well start looking into euthanasia as a resolution to the problem. There's no need of doping yourself up all day long and sleeping all day long. That's not living.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Apr 29, 2011 2:08:04 GMT -5
Wow, wasn't it easy, typing those words? With a keyboard and monitor, anyone can say any old thing whether it really makes sense or not.
It's even easier to tell others what they should or shouldn't be doing despite not being in that situation yourself.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,518
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2011 5:59:31 GMT -5
... They don't do studies on that. FDA Panel to Weigh Lupus Drug's Risks, Benefits This Weekby C Laino - 2010 Nov 15, 2010 ... An FDA panel to weigh the drug's risks and benefits this week. ... different measures than people given standard treatment alone, she says. ... www.medscape.com/viewarticle/732543
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 20, 2024 18:43:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 6:00:05 GMT -5
"The same thing is true of the Obama administrations proposed regulations that doctors be barred from prescribing narcotic pain killers until they receive "training on the importance of appropriate prescription and dispensing of opioids to prevent adverse effects, diversions, and addiction."
Doctors are REQUIRED to receive a lot of training, this is just one more piece of it. Call it a refresher if you will because they have had it before. Sad to say but it's easy to give out pain meds, sometimes to easy. Some people have a very low tolerance for pain & it's easy to over medicate them because of what they are telling you. Doctors rarely go back & check records to figure out exactly how much they have given you or how much you are taking. Then there's the patients that go to several doctors that don't know about each other. I would also add that many doctors feel that they can deal with dependence on a drug at a later date, their main objective is to get you thru what your going thru.
I'm not trying to defend this, just trying to explain that it's not a big deal.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 20, 2024 18:43:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 6:04:23 GMT -5
'm sure some people may need them, but if you are in so much pain that you have to rely on drugs that make you sleepy all day long, you might as well start looking into euthanasia as a resolution to the problem. There's no need of doping yourself up all day long and sleeping all day long. That's not living
Something like cancer can take a long treatment time even if your making progress & responding to treatment. Plus it can get very painful. You wouldn't want someone to end it all because they couldn't stand the pain, 3 or 4 treatments away from being cured. Sometimes being doped up is living.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 20, 2024 18:43:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 6:21:25 GMT -5
Used correctly even powerful opiods like Morphine are non-addictive. Toughtimes your both right & wrong here. Morphine is always addictive BUT (your right) used short term one wouldn't usually get physically addicted. The problem is that someone could get mentally addicted (even short term) because of the lack of pain (if they didn't tolerate pain well). That's why those little buttons connected to IV pain machines are programed not to work within a certain span of time. (I know that I'm being picky on your answer). Also morphine is a Schedule II medication. Schedule III medications are something like Tylenol #3 (with a half grain of codeine) & they are a lot less addicting than Schedule II medications. Oh & someone who has had LONG TERM pain medication won't respond normally to more pain medication (like after an operation). That's because their body has built up a tolerance to it (much like a drug addict has to take more & more of the drug to get the same high).
|
|
Bluerobin
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:24:30 GMT -5
Posts: 17,345
Location: NEPA
|
Post by Bluerobin on Apr 29, 2011 6:22:17 GMT -5
Don't worry, you can always see your IPR, Independent Pharmaceutical Representative (drug dealer) if the doctor won't cooperate
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 20, 2024 18:43:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 6:32:53 GMT -5
Yes, it is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. We are going to put more and more controls and more and more hoops to jump through to prevent the 1% addicts from doing what they do but making it increasingly difficult for the 99% who have legitimate medical needs. But, like anything, they can just do governmental knee jerks like pulling a drug off the market because a few people were harmed and that is much easier to measure. It is much more difficult to measure the human toll and suffering when you don't have these things available. They don't do studies on that.
Snerdley your argument could be made for just about any drug on the market except pain medication (& for several reasons). They all mask pain but to different degrees. If one is recalled because of adverse side effects there is always something else or a combination of drugs that can be substituted for it. Also they don't remove drugs from the market just because they can be abused, all Schedule II drugs are habit forming & have abuse potential. They remove them because of dangers to the patients. A drug that makes 99 people pain free but kills the 100th person without warning would be removed from the market because it kills people. Lastly the companies that make those drugs would remove them anyway. They just don't make enough on them to spend millions of dollars (or more) in legal fee's.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 20, 2024 18:43:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 6:39:10 GMT -5
Anyway back to the point of the post. I see this training as nothing more than Continual Education that doctors are required to do anyway (or they lose their license). Doctors can sometime (& DO) get to close to patients treatment & not realize that they have created a drug addict. But more than that, sometimes they make the decision that addiction doesn't matter as much as the possible side effect of the pain. (You can't cure someone that kills themselves because their are in so much pain). Remember they take an oath to prevent pain & to do no harm. Sometimes they walk a fine line between those 2 statements. Just my thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 29, 2011 6:41:19 GMT -5
Wouldn't affect me. I don't have a habit of popping pills or doing drugs. Those that feel the need to live on them on a daily basis need to learn to accept pain. 'm sure some people may need them, but if you are in so much pain that you have to rely on drugs that make you sleepy all day long, you might as well start looking into euthanasia as a resolution to the problem.
Wow! That's pretty rough, KK. Apparently you've never had severe pain.
I have been dealing with a failing hip since November. It took 3 months before I could be scheduled for surgery and I lived on narcotics for those 3 months. It wasn't optimal, but it was a solution until a more permanant one could be made.
I can't imagine why anyone would advocate euthanasia while waiting for a hip replacement, or dealing with kidney stones, or chronic back pain - or the multitude of reasons why there is inoperable pain and a person WANTS to live.
FWIW, drugs do not make you sleepy all day. I was on narcotics from November through most of February. When I stopped hurting, I stopped taking them. Used properly, most people do not get high nor addicted to them. Over the years, I've been on narcotics for extended periods of time and each time it's been the same.
Pity you felt the need to weigh in on something you know nothing about.
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Apr 29, 2011 10:00:32 GMT -5
Wow...the panic. All caused from a complete misunderstanding about PDMP. This doesn't have anything to do with training Dr's, it has to do with educating individuals on drug effects and the use and abuse of these drugs in the state. It's also enacted and administered at the state level. IMHO, we need these here in "gods waiting room". Besides the infamous FL pill mills popping up all over the place, My own mother got addicted to pain pills (severe back issues) and it almost killed her. When my dad called DW (after she was transported and admitted to the hospital of course) worried because she kept blacking out for brief periods, we started investigating and found prescriptions for pain pills from four or five different Dr's. A database tracking in-state usage would have likely caught this. ________________________ www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/faq/rx_monitor.htm#11. What is a prescription drug monitoring program (PDMP)? According to the National Alliance for Model State Drug Laws (NAMSDL), a PDMP is a statewide electronic database which collects designated data on substances dispensed in the state. The PDMP is housed by a specified statewide regulatory, administrative or law enforcement agency. The housing agency distributes data from the database to individuals who are authorized under state law to receive the information for purposes of their profession. 2. Does the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) oversee PDMPs? The DEA is not involved with the administration of any state PDMP. 3. What are the benefits of having a PDMP? The overview provided by NAMSDL clearly identifies the benefits of a PDMP: as a tool used by states to address prescription drug abuse, addiction and diversion, it may serve several purposes such as: 1. support access to legitimate medical use of controlled substances, 2. identify and deter or prevent drug abuse and diversion, 3. facilitate and encourage the identification, intervention with and treatment of persons addicted to prescription drugs, 4. inform public health initiatives through outlining of use and abuse trends, and 5. educate individuals about PDMPs and the use, abuse and diversion of and addiction to prescription drugs.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,339
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 29, 2011 10:16:21 GMT -5
We have PDMP here in our state. DH used to be addicted to pills and would hop from doctor to doctor and pharmacy to pharmacy. Since no one ever talks to anyone, he was able to easily get prescription after prescription. Before the PDMP I could go to Dr. W on Monday for pain pills, then drive across town to Dr. Y on Tuesday and get yet another prescription. It was very easy to get several prescriptions and then you just filled them at a different pharmacy each time. The PDMP is a central database for all doctors and all pharmacists. So Medicap can see that you already filled a pain prescription at Walgreen's yesterday and not fill a new one today. Dr. Y can now see that I went to Dr. W already and got a script and not give me another one. I also have no problems with mandating continued education. Doctors should be doing this anyhow but it isn't always required that they do so. My DH had undiagnosed kidney stones, which were a legitmate need for pain pills. However after awhile he started filling the prescription faster and faster to the point of where a bottle of 100 pills wasn't lasting a week. Instead of questioning it not only did the doctor give him more, but would increase the dosage every time. I don't believe every doctor does this, but some need to be smacked upside the head for giving out pain pills like they are candy. Used and prescribed properly there is no harm but when given to an addict by a doctor who doesn't pay attention it can make for a horrible mess.
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Apr 29, 2011 10:24:51 GMT -5
I also have no problems with mandating continued education. Doctors should be doing this anyhow but it isn't always required that they do so. I'd imagine they are. DW is required so many hours every year to maintain her RN license. I don't believe subject material is mandated though. She does tend to stick with subjects related to the patients she's caring for (cardiac related) but I would assume a nurse could take some easy, unrelated course such as caring for hangnails or something like that just to "log hours".
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Apr 29, 2011 10:26:51 GMT -5
I don't see the big deal. This won't affect anyone legitimately needing pain pills. This is to catch the people that hop doctor to doctor & have a half dozen prescriptions at any given time. No good doctor would ever write a second prescription for pain pills that a person is already taking, but without a system like this doctors don't know that a patient already has a prescription & is just trying to get more.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 20, 2024 18:43:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 10:27:51 GMT -5
Given that the OP says the doc will be barred from prescribing until they have the trainning, i'm guessing that if it doesn't apply to you.. you don't take the training, and if you need to prescribe, then it does apply to you...
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,339
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 29, 2011 10:30:15 GMT -5
So if the Obama administration forces the states (withholding of fed funds) to get them to adopt PDMPs, does that mean that your doctor, or yourself, could receive a visit, or be requested for an interview - just to see if you fit their profile of a 'prescription drug abuser' or addictAll ours does is send up a red flag if I show up at Medicap with a pain pill prescription and I've already just filled one at Walgreen's. Medicap will refuse to fill the prescription. Same with doctors. Dr. Y will not prescribe me pills because it's already in teh database that Dr. W gave me a prescription. No one can access it besides medical/pharmacy professionals.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 20, 2024 18:43:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 10:48:24 GMT -5
Plus, state licensing boards already can (and some do) require specific subject areas for some continuing education hours. NY state requires an annual infection control course for some healthcare providers. I don't see how this would be any different.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 29, 2011 13:16:34 GMT -5
I don't see the big deal. This won't affect anyone legitimately needing pain pills. This is to catch the people that hop doctor to doctor & have a half dozen prescriptions at any given time. No good doctor would ever write a second prescription for pain pills that a person is already taking, but without a system like this doctors don't know that a patient already has a prescription & is just trying to get more. We're broke. It's just not that big a priority to me that government chase addicts around and "catch" them doing what they're going to do anyway.
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Apr 29, 2011 13:59:38 GMT -5
We're broke. It's just not that big a priority to me that government chase addicts around and "catch" them doing what they're going to do anyway. Looking at a cost benefit analysis, it could actually be a cost benefit to the state. This is an old GAO analysis (July 1992) but estimated savings for NY's medicaid program in two years was $27 million. Michigan estimated they saved $440k in one year. archive.gao.gov/d33t10/147189.pdfI haven't seen an analysis for FL yet but there is a foundation trying to raise money to cover operating costs through private donations. www.flpdmpfoundation.com/
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 29, 2011 14:02:02 GMT -5
Wouldn't the ultimate cost savings be letting them overdose?
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Apr 29, 2011 14:22:47 GMT -5
You are assuming this is about addicts and not people selling the pills. And who is paying for all of these extra pills?
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Apr 29, 2011 14:25:31 GMT -5
WASHINGTON — As Congress debates the government's role in health care, a report out Wednesday finds that state and federal officials failed to detect millions of dollars in Medicaid prescription drug abuse. An audit of the government program in five large states found about 65,000 instances of beneficiaries improperly obtaining potentially addictive drugs at a cost of about $65 million during 2006 and 2007 — including thousands of prescriptions written for dead patients or by people posing as doctors. The report, by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), represents "an enormous opportunity to save money," says Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del., who has scheduled a hearing Wednesday on the findings. When bills for the doctors' visits are added, along with the potential for Medicaid fraud in states not reviewed by the GAO audit, Carper said: "We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars." www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-09-29-Medicaid-drug-abuse-fraud-Michael-Jackson_N.htmWant to change your mind?
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Apr 29, 2011 14:35:59 GMT -5
Wouldn't the ultimate cost savings be letting them overdose? You are assuming they will die. More likely they will go into a coma, get hospitalized for a while, recover & start the cycle over again. Also, I am guessing that many people with major prescription abuse problems don't contribute a whole lot to society & are on welfare programs. Honestly though, while it is a good idea, most of who really want to will just find another way to get the drugs. The black market price will skyrocket & nothing will really change. Maybe they should start just selling them OTC & taxing the heck out of them. At one point in his career Gary Johnson didn't even believe herion should be illegal. I believe he has changed his stance on that though, it probably wasn't a popular opinion with the majority.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Apr 29, 2011 14:43:37 GMT -5
That is the better plan- make them all OTC.
I figure there are two ways to deal with the drug problem- keep them illegal and live with the massive crime and law enforcement costs (not working at all) or making them legal, end the black market, and only deal with the addicts.
If cocaine was back on the shelves in Walgreens tomorrow what do you think would happen to the the drug cartels and gangs?
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Apr 29, 2011 15:08:06 GMT -5
Wouldn't the ultimate cost savings be letting them overdose? Doubtful. Much cheaper if we didn't have to pay for the drugs that they are OD'ing on or the emergency costs to try and save them when they do. But they are dying...at least down here they are. From the FL PDMD Foundation linked above: The 2009 Florida Medical Examiner’s Report provides that nearly seven Floridians are lost every day to prescription drug overdoses. Deaths attributed to prescription drug overdoses have doubled since 2003—1,234 to 2,488. This is five times the amount of deaths for all illegal drugs combined, and almost equal to the number of Florida traffic fatalities in 2009.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Apr 29, 2011 15:15:02 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Apr 29, 2011 15:24:56 GMT -5
Every drug has the potential to kill someone. People have died from Tylenol. Those who don't realize that there is always risk/benefit discussion don't really understand what they are getting into. EVERY drug, procedure, surgery, etc has a potential for an adverse effect on somebody. Sheesh. Are we really into that much magical thinking nowadays? Hell getting out of bed has the potential to adversely effect you. Likewise staying in bed has the potential to adversely effect you. Face it, life is a killer.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,518
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2011 15:50:47 GMT -5
Every drug has the potential to kill someone. People have died from Tylenol. Those who don't realize that there is always risk/benefit discussion don't really understand what they are getting into. EVERY drug, procedure, surgery, etc has a potential for an adverse effect on somebody. Sheesh. Are we really into that much magical thinking nowadays? Hell getting out of bed has the potential to adversely effect you. Likewise staying in bed has the potential to adversely effect you.Face it, life is a killer. I do high cable activities with kids and sometimes they ask, "Am I going to die?" I almost always answer, "Yes, but probably not today doing this activity." I go on to tell them I have read reports of people slipping on a rug getting out of bed, hitting their head on a nightstand, and dying. I have also read reports of people having a car or tree crash into a house and killing the person in their bed. "So, you can get killed getting out of bed and you can get killed staying in bed. You make your choices and take your chances. Who's first?"
|
|