Poverty and the roll of the dice

[Opti]

Sept 1, 2024 23:55:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 1, 2024 22:30:33 GMT -5 Opti said:

But what are those jobs, because the world does not stay static, many become replaceable or less desirable jobs as time goes on.
Plus, there are ebbs and flows in hiring and demand for US based employees. For example, I found a nice, interesting job I could probably do now for Paramount+ but it is based in Hungary to support non-US TV. 

The trades, plumbing or electrician for examples, are great choices. Teaching is solid. Pharmacist gives you great options. "Nice, interesting" is probably something to avoid.

Some of us aren't made for boring. Pharmacist is not the job it was when I was going to college. The requirements for hours and shifts are not a walk in the park if you work at a retail pharmacy. Continuing education is a must of course, but few go to pharmacy school back them thinking a good portion of their work week is going to be nights and weekends for example.

Locksmith was a great choice at one time, but with standardized key sets and companies getting into the biz of car lockouts and even house lockouts, those who know their stuff are rare or have folded their businesses. Teaching depends, What are you teaching, where are you teaching, are you in Covid times or have a crappy principal etc. My mom was a lifetime teacher. I have considered it off and on for years, but I think I'd be much happier teaching at the college level and I do not have a PhD at this point and adjunct instructor pay out here sucks.

[Opti]

I will add Bills nice and interesting has created industries and great wealth for some folks. Steve Jobs and Elon Mush as examples. Martha Stewart, even Oprah powering through the news to talk show industry. There are lots of failures along the way, but picking easy or should be stable is not always a winning strategy either. I met nurses who ended up in the wrong specialization who became unhireable for years. I know so many engineers who had to change careers or take lesser jobs. I try not to keep count. I also know several major success stories who are making major income because of what they specialized in, papers they wrote or patents they are on. A few created companies, one I decided not to take a pay cut to interview at and in retrospect since everything tanked after 9/11, it could have been a decent choice. It was weird though, I played volleyball with the man who did the research that created the company. It was no longer small, it employed at least 70 people at the time.

[scgal]

Sept 1, 2024 15:18:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 1, 2024 15:17:08 GMT -5 scgal said:

Here is another question why does there need to be equality in wealth? 

do you mind if i rephrase the question thusly:

"why is it desirable to have a more even distribution of wealth"?

i can't answer the question the way you have it.

Why can't you answer it? 

Anyhow there shouldn't be an even distribution or what many consider redistribution of wealth. The ones who obtain it will have no desire to do more. Or simply put invest in business which in most instances helps everyone else besides lining their own pockets. 

Ok so lets here why it's more desirable. 

[Opti]

Sept 2, 2024 6:56:09 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 1, 2024 15:18:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

do you mind if i rephrase the question thusly:

"why is it desirable to have a more even distribution of wealth"?

i can't answer the question the way you have it.

Why can't you answer it? 

Anyhow there shouldn't be an even distribution or what many consider redistribution of wealth. The ones who obtain it will have no desire to do more. Or simply put invest in business which in most instances helps everyone else besides lining their own pockets. 

Ok so lets here why it's more desirable. 

Society's that do not exploit the poorest of their citizens tend to be more stable. The French Revolution happened because of the excesses of the French Court were possible by making it even harder for French peasants to survive. Now because you aren't super rich you probably believe your odds of being kidnapped and held for ransom are low. In the US perhaps, certain other countries, no.
The richer you are the more likely you are to be targets of robbery and assault. The mor wealth the bottom part of society has the less crime in robbery, murder, assault, and general stealing there are. And as you know by the amplified stories in RW media, it is rarely confined to just the poor hurting other poor people. They are aware as many of us are it's the greed of the rich that keeps things unfair. 

While it is possible to build wealth without taking advantage of the poor, it sadly is not the usual way certain many titans choose to go. That's why occasionally in India or China the owner of a factory which pays below average sometimes gets kidnapped. Sometimes they survive the ordeal, sometimes they do not. Inequities of land can also produce organizations like Hamas, mobs and gangs. I personally prefer a fairer happier world, but I am not a conservative that thinks everyone is out to get me.

[billisonboard]

Sept 2, 2024 0:13:52 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 1, 2024 23:55:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

The trades, plumbing or electrician for examples, are great choices. Teaching is solid. Pharmacist gives you great options. "Nice, interesting" is probably something to avoid.

Some of us aren't made for boring. Pharmacist is not the job it was when I was going to college. The requirements for hours and shifts are not a walk in the park if you work at a retail pharmacy. Continuing education is a must of course, but few go to pharmacy school back them thinking a good portion of their work week is going to be nights and weekends for example.

Locksmith was a great choice at one time, but with standardized key sets and companies getting into the biz of car lockouts and even house lockouts, those who know their stuff are rare or have folded their businesses. Teaching depends, What are you teaching, where are you teaching, are you in Covid times or have a crappy principal etc. My mom was a lifetime teacher. I have considered it off and on for years, but I think I'd be much happier teaching at the college level and I do not have a PhD at this point and adjunct instructor pay out here sucks.

I was discussing what will help young people develop a career plan to survive financially during their lifetime. And yes there will be a need for them to update skills and really know their stuff. Happy is a luxury.

[Opti]

Sept 2, 2024 8:24:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 2, 2024 0:13:52 GMT -5 Opti said:

Some of us aren't made for boring. Pharmacist is not the job it was when I was going to college. The requirements for hours and shifts are not a walk in the park if you work at a retail pharmacy. Continuing education is a must of course, but few go to pharmacy school back them thinking a good portion of their work week is going to be nights and weekends for example.

Locksmith was a great choice at one time, but with standardized key sets and companies getting into the biz of car lockouts and even house lockouts, those who know their stuff are rare or have folded their businesses. Teaching depends, What are you teaching, where are you teaching, are you in Covid times or have a crappy principal etc. My mom was a lifetime teacher. I have considered it off and on for years, but I think I'd be much happier teaching at the college level and I do not have a PhD at this point and adjunct instructor pay out here sucks.

I was discussing what will help young people develop a career plan to survive financially during their lifetime. And yes there will be a need for them to update skills and really know their stuff. Happy is a luxury.

I disagree. While happiness is a choice it is harder to feel that way during war, losses, and medical problems it can be done. Doing something just to survive for years on end perhaps your entire life does not lead to good outcomes. People who sit in boxes others want for them generally have shorter more miserable lives than those who either fit in those boxes or have found their own path.

And I thought this election more than any other is about choices to be who we are as best we can. I know you are a teacher, but would you be as content with your life if instead you didn't teach about politics but were instead shoe-horned into teaching HomeEc at a girl's school or a PE teacher required to coach an after school sports team because it would help you survive financially. 

Right now Catholic males can choose to go into the priesthood if that is the way they want to survive financially. I think being at peace with your choices in life might be the biggest predictor of longevity after wealth and where you live. In yesterday's story for all ages it concerned the activist who helped found the National Farmer Workers Association which later became part of UFW. I do not subscribe to the YM belief of going for a perfect life or thinking only of financial security. I am glad Dolores Huerta wanted better for others instead of staying in the lane society would have her be in. 

[billisonboard]

Sept 2, 2024 0:22:37 GMT -5 Opti said:

I will add Bills nice and interesting has created industries and great wealth for some folks. Steve Jobs and Elon Mush as examples. Martha Stewart, even Oprah powering through the news to talk show industry. There are lots of failures along the way, but picking easy or should be stable is not always a winning strategy either. I met nurses who ended up in the wrong specialization who became unhireable for years. I know so many engineers who had to change careers or take lesser jobs. I try not to keep count. I also know several major success stories who are making major income because of what they specialized in, papers they wrote or patents they are on. A few created companies, one I decided not to take a pay cut to interview at and in retrospect since everything tanked after 9/11, it could have been a decent choice. It was weird though, I played volleyball with the man who did the research that created the company. It was no longer small, it employed at least 70 people at the time.

I realize that there are hundreds, maybe even thousands, of examples of individuals who are superstars who can be referenced. I tend not to rely on those when talking to kids with moderate motivation and academic talent. Late bloomers exist and will grow in their time long past the point I am talking to them.

[billisonboard]

Sept 2, 2024 8:44:18 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 2, 2024 8:24:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I was discussing what will help young people develop a career plan to survive financially during their lifetime. And yes there will be a need for them to update skills and really know their stuff. Happy is a luxury.

I disagree. While happiness is a choice it is harder to feel that way during war, losses, and medical problems it can be done. Doing something just to survive for years on end perhaps your entire life does not lead to good outcomes. People who sit in boxes others want for them generally have shorter more miserable lives than those who either fit in those boxes or have found their own path.

And I thought this election more than any other is about choices to be who we are as best we can. I know you are a teacher, but would you be as content with your life if instead you didn't teach about politics but were instead shoe-horned into teaching HomeEc at a girl's school or a PE teacher required to coach an after school sports team because it would help you survive financially. 

Right now Catholic males can choose to go into the priesthood if that is the way they want to survive financially. I think being at peace with your choices in life might be the biggest predictor of longevity after wealth and where you live. In yesterday's story for all ages it concerned the activist who helped found the National Farmer Workers Association which later became part of UFW. I do not subscribe to the YM belief of going for a perfect life or thinking only of financial security. I am glad Dolores Huerta wanted better for others instead of staying in the lane society would have her be in. 

FWIW, I currently work one-to-one with high needs and autistic students who have no clue that an election campaign is happening. I like this idea of "being at peace with your choices in life" much better than the idea of being happy with them.

[Opti]

People are going to be put into poverty boxes because of who they are, the time they live in and where they live. Just like Trump's "black jobs" I think those of us who are up to it, should reject those labels. Gays throughout history have been celebrated to reviled and much of history pushed down economically if their sexual preference was known.

However, especially in the NYC area male homosexuals have embraced the pursuit of appearance both in their physical being and the pursuit of material possessions. They are one of the richest small demographics. Lesbians though can be smarter than average but often make even less on the whole than heterosexual women do. A doubled society disability perhaps?

So while Hispanics and black people as a group do worse than whites as a group for now, there still remains huge swaths of white people who are poor because of opportunities and situation. The amount of course corrections I and others have done in my situation is bigger than most of you know. Its rather depressing actually, but I rarely share any of that as it would easily identify me and almost no poster would choose to believe me. This entire board has a history of chasing off its poorer posters because they do not want to hear the poster as much as they would like to cure them. It is rarely based on the poorer poster's real needs and situations. The only one that got some grace for awhile was Shasta, and that's because the board had recently succeeded in driving off another underfunded poster and felt guilty for a bit. Its not just this board of course, most of the funded are deeply naive as to how the world works in the US for the poorer among us. I thankfully never thought I knew it all like some, but it has been an enlightening and very shocking journey being downwardly mobile in a blue state that is always changing. Since I prefer suburban bordering on rural, I have yet to live in a city or town that tilted Dem. Its been GOP and I remain surprised at Trumpers I meet.

[Opti]

Sept 2, 2024 8:46:59 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 2, 2024 0:22:37 GMT -5 Opti said:

I will add Bills nice and interesting has created industries and great wealth for some folks. Steve Jobs and Elon Mush as examples. Martha Stewart, even Oprah powering through the news to talk show industry. There are lots of failures along the way, but picking easy or should be stable is not always a winning strategy either. I met nurses who ended up in the wrong specialization who became unhireable for years. I know so many engineers who had to change careers or take lesser jobs. I try not to keep count. I also know several major success stories who are making major income because of what they specialized in, papers they wrote or patents they are on. A few created companies, one I decided not to take a pay cut to interview at and in retrospect since everything tanked after 9/11, it could have been a decent choice. It was weird though, I played volleyball with the man who did the research that created the company. It was no longer small, it employed at least 70 people at the time.

I realize that there are hundreds, maybe even thousands, of examples of individuals who are superstars who can be referenced. I tend not to rely on those when talking to kids with moderate motivation and academic talent. Late bloomers exist and will grow in their time long past the point I am talking to them.

Many smart folks get stifled before they even escape HS. Suicide rates among the top 5 to 10% of students are way too high and its a society thing. People like me, female with my kind of brain are exceedingly rare, and have even bigger crosses to bear than the ADHD males who may become economic superstars if they make it into their thirties. The success for my small cohort is much less. One of those is a pharmacist. Back in my college days, getting into that particular pharmacy school was even harder than getting into almost every vet school in the US.

Lastly,
Almost everyone helps the middle. There is little help for those on the outside unless people see immediate profit and fame in it, like those with exceptional talent in sports. Most people in the middle actively try to pull us down, so sometimes I am not a fan of humanity because of their own biases and beliefs. They believe smart people would exploit them, mainly because they themselves would do so. The people who do exploit them though are generally from the middle with exceptional emotional intelligence and talents in manipulating others. Two things that are not that likely to come with high native intelligence.

Trump versus Steve Jobs
Tucker Carlson versus those who actually built the Internet 
Trump versus Harris

[djAdvocate]

Sept 2, 2024 6:56:09 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 1, 2024 15:18:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

do you mind if i rephrase the question thusly:

"why is it desirable to have a more even distribution of wealth"?

i can't answer the question the way you have it.

Why can't you answer it? 

because i don't think that an equal distribution of wealth is a GOAL.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 2, 2024 6:56:09 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 1, 2024 15:18:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

there shouldn't be an even distribution or what many consider redistribution of wealth. The ones who obtain it will have no desire to do more. 

it has nothing to do with will.
in feudal societies, the rich own everything and the poor own nothing.  they are PREVENTED from owning things by the rich.  i don't think anyone views that as desireable.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 2, 2024 6:56:09 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 1, 2024 15:18:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

do you mind if i rephrase the question thusly:

"why is it desirable to have a more even distribution of wealth"?

i can't answer the question the way you have it.

Why can't you answer it? 

Anyhow there shouldn't be an even distribution or what many consider redistribution of wealth. The ones who obtain it will have no desire to do more. Or simply put invest in business which in most instances helps everyone else besides lining their own pockets. 

Ok so lets here why it's more desirable. 

apart from the obvious working class argument, there are TWO arguments for the elite:

1) a more egalitarian wealth distribution generates better economic growth.  in the period between 1823-1973 in the US, the wealthy and the poor shared the gains in productivity equally.  the result was what Wolff calls "the virtuous cycle" where striving causes massive economic turns which benefit every level of society.

2) a more egalitarian system accompanies lower social unrest.  if you review the societies that have more egalitarian wealth distribution, you will find that they are (for the most part) NOT shithole countries.  and, conversely, you will find those with the least egalitarian wealth distribution are.  this is because the poor are not invested in systems where the rich take everything from them and leave them with no benefit.  this is precisely how FDR framed the argument in the 30's that led to the massive social programs that we have now.  either the capital elite gave back to the people, or the people would rise up and take it from them.

[scgal]

Sept 2, 2024 11:24:22 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 2, 2024 6:56:09 GMT -5 scgal said:

there shouldn't be an even distribution or what many consider redistribution of wealth. The ones who obtain it will have no desire to do more. 

it has nothing to do with will.
in feudal societies, the rich own everything and the poor own nothing.  they are PREVENTED from owning things by the rich.  i don't think anyone views that as desireable.

To support this mindset would mean that you move from poor to middle on your own.

[pulmonarymd]

Nice myth. The IS has less upward mobility than many of of European allies and Australia. It will eventually lead us to be less competitive. But sure, someone who was born on third base and thought they hit a triple has done it all themselves.

The myth about Trump fabulousness as a businessman needs to be deflated. If he had taken what daddy gave him and put it into the S&P 500, he would be far wealthier than he is today, with zero effort except listening to someone else. The way to make a lot of money is to start with a lot of money. The deck is stacked against the poor black child. Any claim to the opposite is just disingenuous

[mollyc]

The question is, do we want a world where only the extraordinary can move from poor to some degree of middle? The history of the World is full of stories of extraordinary people who flourished and moved to the top of Society despite their sex, race, religion or original class standing. Most social programs, as I understand them, are set up to lower the need to be extraordinary.

Canada and the USA went through an unusual period where any poor boy or girl (especially if perceived as White) could move into the Middle just by not fucking up. Don’t have too many kids across decades, don’t become an addict, get a job with a pension, buy and hold a house or land. Unions really helped bring up all of the wages.

I know my parents’ fortunes changed when my mom could no longer bear children and my dad was willing to move somewhere that they could get steady, union pay jobs with pensions.

Yet there is often the idea that these people were bootstrapping their way to Middle class. No. The opportunities were there for my parents and they finally took advantage of them.

There is a trend for opportunities to be fewer and far between for the average, let alone the less than average.

My DB with learning issues could get a good paying union job in a mill without a diploma in the late 70s. My DD’s husband needed his diploma and the mill to be desperate enough to take someone with experience from a lumber/hardware store.

I hope this makes sense. My phone refreshed twice and deleted everything I posted.



Edited to add, C was also helped by the number of people who knew his dad.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 2, 2024 12:25:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 2, 2024 11:24:22 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it has nothing to do with will.
in feudal societies, the rich own everything and the poor own nothing.  they are PREVENTED from owning things by the rich.  i don't think anyone views that as desirable.

To support this mindset would mean that you move from poor to middle on your own.

i don't think you understand what i just said.  in feudal societies, the poor cannot move to middle, except as the elite will it.  and mostly, they don't will it.  if the poor attempt to move to middle in a feudal society, they are met with force.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 2, 2024 13:17:40 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Nice myth. The US has less upward mobility than many of of European allies and Australia. It will eventually lead us to be less competitive. But sure, someone who was born on third base and thought they hit a triple has done it all themselves.

this is 100% true.  but the reasons WHY should be mentioned.  it is because the poor are ECONOMICALLY INSECURE in the US.  they are one paycheck away from homelessness, in many cases.  they can't save enough to make advantageous changes in their lives.

in Europe, there is a secure social safety net, and therefore those that have little or nothing will not fear their ASPIRATIONS.  they can take a year or two to go back to school and get the training they need to succeed.  and that is why we are slowly losing ground to these places.  that, and the fact that we have ceased becoming more secular.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 2, 2024 13:18:23 GMT -5 mollyc said:

The question is, do we want a world where only the extraordinary can move from poor to some degree of middle? The history of the World is full of stories of extraordinary people who flourished and moved to the top of Society despite their sex, race, religion or original class standing. Most social programs, as I understand them, are set up to lower the need to be extraordinary.

Canada and the USA went through an unusual period where any poor boy or girl (especially if perceived as White) could move into the Middle just by not fucking up. 

it doesn't need to be extraordinary, is the thing.  we had this virtuous cycle of capitalism in place until 1973 or so.  every generation was more wealthy than that before it- from top to bottom.  since 1973, the bottom 50% is stuck where they were in 1973, and the wealthy have gotten fabulously rich through gains in productivity.  

what i have been trying to say is that we used to SHARE IN THAT.  because...well....AMERICA!~!!!  we were one nation and one people.  now?  it really is class war.  but the bottom 99% seems to be ready to throw down for the 1% rather than throwing them out.  and the result is that they keep doubling down on their power, policies and politics.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 2, 2024 13:17:40 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

The myth about Trump fabulousness as a businessman needs to be deflated. If he had taken what daddy gave him and put it into the S&P 500, he would be far wealthier than he is today, with zero effort except listening to someone else. The way to make a lot of money is to start with a lot of money. The deck is stacked against the poor black child. Any claim to the opposite is just disingenuous

he is a horrendous businessman.  he has, by some counts, run TEN businesses into the ground.  he will do the same with the US government.  

you know why?  because he only cares about himself.  he will use every egalitarian impulse in our society against us and for himself to continue on his gravy train.

greed is not good.  it is one of the seven deadly sins.  we should elect people that embody the four cardinal virtues.

[Opti]

Sept 2, 2024 13:18:23 GMT -5 mollyc said:

The question is, do we want a world where only the extraordinary can move from poor to some degree of middle? The history of the World is full of stories of extraordinary people who flourished and moved to the top of Society despite their sex, race, religion or original class standing. Most social programs, as I understand them, are set up to lower the need to be extraordinary.

Canada and the USA went through an unusual period where any poor boy or girl (especially if perceived as White) could move into the Middle just by not fucking up. Don’t have too many kids across decades, don’t become an addict, get a job with a pension, buy and hold a house or land. Unions really helped bring up all of the wages.

I know my parents’ fortunes changed when my mom could no longer bear children and my dad was willing to move somewhere that they could get steady, union pay jobs with pensions.

Yet there is often the idea that these people were bootstrapping their way to Middle class. No. The opportunities were there for my parents and they finally took advantage of them.

There is a trend for opportunities to be fewer and far between for the average, let alone the less than average.

My DB with learning issues could get a good paying union job in a mill without a diploma in the late 70s. My DD’s husband needed his diploma and the mill to be desperate enough to take someone with experience from a lumber/hardware store.

I hope this makes sense. My phone refreshed twice and deleted everything I posted.



Edited to add, C was also helped by the number of people who knew his dad.

I think there was a virtuous cycle especially after world war II and until 1973 or so. The UAW supported good jobs in the auto and aerospace industry. Life was good if you could get into the telephone unions as well IBEW and the other one. Not to mention back then plumbing and electrical contractors, builders were predominately Americans born here. The housing and auto industries flourished.

Now because of corporate outsourcing Americans in IT are often passed over in favor of people in India coming to work here or outsourcing the work entirely to China, Israel, and Ireland to name a few. Plumbers in CNJ make serious money and seem to prefer to hire immigrants for cheap wages over anyone else in the last twenty years or so. 

NJ is wicked top heavy in administration for public education, fire and police departments. This has to do with all the home rule politics which make even Chicago politics look like amateur hour. Growing up in suburban Illinois my HS was in one multi-town district and elementary and jr highs were governed by a different multi-town district. Here towns like to keep it to themselves so there are crap tons of superintendents which leads to higher school taxes across the state.

Plus think how life in the 40s did not require personal computers or mobile phones to survive and be part of society. It wasn't until the latter half of the 60s TVs were even common in homes not in NYC or LA. And with shrinking farms, the dynamics of buying and getting food changed as well. And it is hard to get a job anywhere except a small business without jumping electronic hoops to put in a resume and hope the program does not reject you simply because it does not like a word or phrase in your resume. 

[billisonboard]

Sept 2, 2024 13:18:23 GMT -5 mollyc said:

The question is, do we want a world where only the extraordinary can move from poor to some degree of middle? The history of the World is full of stories of extraordinary people who flourished and moved to the top of Society despite their sex, race, religion or original class standing. Most social programs, as I understand them, are set up to lower the need to be extraordinary.

Canada and the USA went through an unusual period where any poor boy or girl (especially if perceived as White) could move into the Middle just by not fucking up. Don’t have too many kids across decades, don’t become an addict, get a job with a pension, buy and hold a house or land. Unions really helped bring up all of the wages.

I know my parents’ fortunes changed when my mom could no longer bear children and my dad was willing to move somewhere that they could get steady, union pay jobs with pensions.

Yet there is often the idea that these people were bootstrapping their way to Middle class. No. The opportunities were there for my parents and they finally took advantage of them.

There is a trend for opportunities to be fewer and far between for the average, let alone the less than average.

My DB with learning issues could get a good paying union job in a mill without a diploma in the late 70s. My DD’s husband needed his diploma and the mill to be desperate enough to take someone with experience from a lumber/hardware store.

I hope this makes sense. My phone refreshed twice and deleted everything I posted.



Edited to add, C was also helped by the number of people who knew his dad.

Solid post. The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that these people were "middle class". I would describe it as working class. My family was "middle-class" when I was young but when I got to high school, I starting dating a gal who's parents were rich - until I realized that they were really just middle-class and not even close to wealthy. But the two cars, boat, split -level house with no kids sharing bedrooms, airplane vacations certainly seemed like wealth to this boy from a lower level working-class environment.

[Opti]

Sept 2, 2024 13:54:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 2, 2024 12:25:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

To support this mindset would mean that you move from poor to middle on your own.

i don't think you understand what i just said.  in feudal societies, the poor cannot move to middle, except as the elite will it.  and mostly, they don't will it.  if the poor attempt to move to middle in a feudal society, they are met with force.

Castes in India now are a great example of this. If you are born into the untouchables, it is believed there you must stay until reborn next life into better circumstances. I believe there are other countries that have similar things.

I think the mobility of those in the US born into poverty out of poverty is something dismal like 3 to 4%. Dropping of course because Trumpers think they know things about things they have never lived or in cases of those who were only in poverty as children do not understand the various ways people in the US get there. Like BK, it is much less than 50% because of bad personal choices. Most of it is outside forces and culture which includes social programs.

[billisonboard]

Sept 2, 2024 14:10:14 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 2, 2024 13:18:23 GMT -5 mollyc said:

The question is, do we want a world where only the extraordinary can move from poor to some degree of middle? The history of the World is full of stories of extraordinary people who flourished and moved to the top of Society despite their sex, race, religion or original class standing. Most social programs, as I understand them, are set up to lower the need to be extraordinary.

Canada and the USA went through an unusual period where any poor boy or girl (especially if perceived as White) could move into the Middle just by not fucking up. Don’t have too many kids across decades, don’t become an addict, get a job with a pension, buy and hold a house or land. Unions really helped bring up all of the wages.

I know my parents’ fortunes changed when my mom could no longer bear children and my dad was willing to move somewhere that they could get steady, union pay jobs with pensions.

Yet there is often the idea that these people were bootstrapping their way to Middle class. No. The opportunities were there for my parents and they finally took advantage of them.

There is a trend for opportunities to be fewer and far between for the average, let alone the less than average.

My DB with learning issues could get a good paying union job in a mill without a diploma in the late 70s. My DD’s husband needed his diploma and the mill to be desperate enough to take someone with experience from a lumber/hardware store.

I hope this makes sense. My phone refreshed twice and deleted everything I posted.



Edited to add, C was also helped by the number of people who knew his dad.

I think there was a virtuous cycle especially after world war II and until 1973 or so. The UAW supported good jobs in the auto and aerospace industry. Life was good if you could get into the telephone unions as well IBEW and the other one. Not to mention back then plumbing and electrical contractors, builders were predominately Americans born here. The housing and auto industries flourished.

Now because of corporate outsourcing Americans in IT are often passed over in favor of people in India coming to work here or outsourcing the work entirely to China, Israel, and Ireland to name a few. Plumbers in CNJ make serious money and seem to prefer to hire immigrants for cheap wages over anyone else in the last twenty years or so. 

NJ is wicked top heavy in administration for public education, fire and police departments. This has to do with all the home rule politics which make even Chicago politics look like amateur hour. Growing up in suburban Illinois my HS was in one multi-town district and elementary and jr highs were governed by a different multi-town district. Here towns like to keep it to themselves so there are crap tons of superintendents which leads to higher school taxes across the state.

Plus think how life in the 40s did not require personal computers or mobile phones to survive and be part of society. It wasn't until the latter half of the 60s TVs were even common in homes not in NYC or LA. And with shrinking farms, the dynamics of buying and getting food changed as well. And it is hard to get a job anywhere except a small business without jumping electronic hoops to put in a resume and hope the program does not reject you simply because it does not like a word or phrase in your resume. 

I attribute a lot of that to the veterans coming back from the war. You had former officers managing former foot soldiers who had saved their butts in battle. Much harder to exploit a human being with whom you shared a foxhole and C-Rats.

[Opti]

Sept 2, 2024 14:12:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 2, 2024 13:18:23 GMT -5 mollyc said:

The question is, do we want a world where only the extraordinary can move from poor to some degree of middle? The history of the World is full of stories of extraordinary people who flourished and moved to the top of Society despite their sex, race, religion or original class standing. Most social programs, as I understand them, are set up to lower the need to be extraordinary.

Canada and the USA went through an unusual period where any poor boy or girl (especially if perceived as White) could move into the Middle just by not fucking up. Don’t have too many kids across decades, don’t become an addict, get a job with a pension, buy and hold a house or land. Unions really helped bring up all of the wages.

I know my parents’ fortunes changed when my mom could no longer bear children and my dad was willing to move somewhere that they could get steady, union pay jobs with pensions.

Yet there is often the idea that these people were bootstrapping their way to Middle class. No. The opportunities were there for my parents and they finally took advantage of them.

There is a trend for opportunities to be fewer and far between for the average, let alone the less than average.

My DB with learning issues could get a good paying union job in a mill without a diploma in the late 70s. My DD’s husband needed his diploma and the mill to be desperate enough to take someone with experience from a lumber/hardware store.

I hope this makes sense. My phone refreshed twice and deleted everything I posted.



Edited to add, C was also helped by the number of people who knew his dad.

Solid post. The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that these people were "middle class". I would describe it as working class. My family was "middle-class" when I was young but when I got to high school, I starting dating a gal who's parents were rich - until I realized that they were really just middle-class and not even close to wealthy. But the two cars, boat, split -level house with no kids sharing bedrooms, airplane vacations certainly seemed like wealth to this boy from a lower level working-class environment.

That sounds like middle class into bottom upper middle class. The middle class is often defined very broadly with lower, middle, and upper portions. Upper middle class is basically people who are starter rich and feel sorry for themselves. 

I do not like your belief in a working class as the majority of people qualifying for social programs are "working class". The majority work at least one FT job. Many work a FT and PT job if they have kids or increasing if you live somewhere like NJ as a single person not living with someone else. 


I would suggest if you haven't already, look into how your own state defines the levels. A good way to see this is to look at affordable housing websites or see what the qualifications are for SNAP and other social programs. The amount of slavery in the US is increasing. Most of it is unseen like prostitution rings, scam calling centers, and farmers keeping workers on the property and unable to leave. 

But for those not in those situations but slightly above, DeSantis has decided AG workers in his state are not allowed shade or water breaks while picking crops in Florida. So now more people can die in their 20s and low 30s from dehydration, kidney failure etc. But scgal isn't great that DeSantis is catering to the rich farmers or AG coprs and hastening Florida into AG conditions in Africa?

[Opti]

Sept 2, 2024 14:28:04 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 2, 2024 14:10:14 GMT -5 Opti said:

I think there was a virtuous cycle especially after world war II and until 1973 or so. The UAW supported good jobs in the auto and aerospace industry. Life was good if you could get into the telephone unions as well IBEW and the other one. Not to mention back then plumbing and electrical contractors, builders were predominately Americans born here. The housing and auto industries flourished.

Now because of corporate outsourcing Americans in IT are often passed over in favor of people in India coming to work here or outsourcing the work entirely to China, Israel, and Ireland to name a few. Plumbers in CNJ make serious money and seem to prefer to hire immigrants for cheap wages over anyone else in the last twenty years or so. 

NJ is wicked top heavy in administration for public education, fire and police departments. This has to do with all the home rule politics which make even Chicago politics look like amateur hour. Growing up in suburban Illinois my HS was in one multi-town district and elementary and jr highs were governed by a different multi-town district. Here towns like to keep it to themselves so there are crap tons of superintendents which leads to higher school taxes across the state.

Plus think how life in the 40s did not require personal computers or mobile phones to survive and be part of society. It wasn't until the latter half of the 60s TVs were even common in homes not in NYC or LA. And with shrinking farms, the dynamics of buying and getting food changed as well. And it is hard to get a job anywhere except a small business without jumping electronic hoops to put in a resume and hope the program does not reject you simply because it does not like a word or phrase in your resume. 

I attribute a lot of that to the veterans coming back from the war. You had former officers managing former foot soldiers who had saved their butts in battle. Much harder to exploit a human being with whom you shared a foxhole and C-Rats.

Yet it did not happen for those returning from Vietnam. And it happened much less for those returning from Korea. Bills the expanding economy from WW II floated many boats, not just veterans. Just like shrinking economies toss a certain number of people out on their ear. In the pandemic some of the work from home peeps did great. Meanwhile retail, especially food businesses hurt, As did travel, entertainment etc. Businesses failed differently than they did during the credit crisis. 

[billisonboard]

Sept 2, 2024 14:28:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 2, 2024 14:12:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Solid post. The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that these people were "middle class". I would describe it as working class. My family was "middle-class" when I was young but when I got to high school, I starting dating a gal who's parents were rich - until I realized that they were really just middle-class and not even close to wealthy. But the two cars, boat, split -level house with no kids sharing bedrooms, airplane vacations certainly seemed like wealth to this boy from a lower level working-class environment.

That sounds like middle class into bottom upper middle class. The middle class is often defined very broadly with lower, middle, and upper portions. Upper middle class is basically people who are starter rich and feel sorry for themselves. 

I do not like your belief in a working class as the majority of people qualifying for social programs are "working class". The majority work at least one FT job. Many work a FT and PT job if they have kids or increasing if you live somewhere like NJ as a single person not living with someone else. 


I would suggest if you haven't already, look into how your own state defines the levels. A good way to see this is to look at affordable housing websites or see what the qualifications are for SNAP and other social programs. The amount of slavery in the US is increasing. Most of it is unseen like prostitution rings, scam calling centers, and farmers keeping workers on the property and unable to leave. 

But for those not in those situations but slightly above, DeSantis has decided AG workers in his state are not allowed shade or water breaks while picking crops in Florida. So now more people can die in their 20s and low 30s from dehydration, kidney failure etc. But scgal isn't great that DeSantis is catering to the rich farmers or AG coprs and hastening Florida into AG conditions in Africa?

I prefer sociological studies of class to governmental definitions. There is a psychological reason for government to make everyone "middle-class." It helps tap down the type of class uprising we started to see in the thirties.

[billisonboard]

Sept 2, 2024 14:36:44 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 2, 2024 14:28:04 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I attribute a lot of that to the veterans coming back from the war. You had former officers managing former foot soldiers who had saved their butts in battle. Much harder to exploit a human being with whom you shared a foxhole and C-Rats.

Yet it did not happen for those returning from Vietnam. And it happened much less for those returning from Korea. Bills the expanding economy from WW II floated many boats, not just veterans. Just like shrinking economies toss a certain number of people out on their ear. In the pandemic some of the work from home peeps did great. Meanwhile retail, especially food businesses hurt, As did travel, entertainment etc. Businesses failed differently than they did during the credit crisis. 

It is important to look at a very different rotation pattern that was used in Vietnam. Individuals were rotated into and out of units instead of maintaining group integrity.

[scgal]

Sept 2, 2024 14:28:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 2, 2024 14:12:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Solid post. The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that these people were "middle class". I would describe it as working class. My family was "middle-class" when I was young but when I got to high school, I starting dating a gal who's parents were rich - until I realized that they were really just middle-class and not even close to wealthy. But the two cars, boat, split -level house with no kids sharing bedrooms, airplane vacations certainly seemed like wealth to this boy from a lower level working-class environment.

That sounds like middle class into bottom upper middle class. The middle class is often defined very broadly with lower, middle, and upper portions. Upper middle class is basically people who are starter rich and feel sorry for themselves. 

I do not like your belief in a working class as the majority of people qualifying for social programs are "working class". The majority work at least one FT job. Many work a FT and PT job if they have kids or increasing if you live somewhere like NJ as a single person not living with someone else. 


I would suggest if you haven't already, look into how your own state defines the levels. A good way to see this is to look at affordable housing websites or see what the qualifications are for SNAP and other social programs. The amount of slavery in the US is increasing. Most of it is unseen like prostitution rings, scam calling centers, and farmers keeping workers on the property and unable to leave. 

But for those not in those situations but slightly above, DeSantis has decided AG workers in his state are not allowed shade or water breaks while picking crops in Florida. So now more people can die in their 20s and low 30s from dehydration, kidney failure etc. But scgal isn't great that DeSantis is catering to the rich farmers or AG coprs and hastening Florida into AG conditions in Africa?

It's unfactual nonsense comments like this that help keep parties separated. He did not say workers are not allowed shade or breaks. He merely signed a bill stating the govt will not support it. There is a big big difference. 

[pulmonarymd]

Depending on business to do the right thing is naive. As has been shown throughout history, starting with Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle, LoveCreek, the fouling of air and water in the name of profits, the desecration of land by radioactive pollution, and the abuses in the meat packing industries, corporations will do what maximizes profits. They only care about difficult to replace employees. They employ immigrants in the fields, and they are expendable. Regulations are required so a minimal safety standard is maintained. By abdicating his responsibility, DiSantis proves he does not care