Open Question: how will people think of Trump in 100 years?

[djAdvocate]

are some of you thinking that if Trump turns the US into a dictatorship, he will become that "revered leader" that we all think of as a sort of God, now and into the future?

if so, i ask this: how many DEMOCRATIC STATES have had a fascist takeover and viewed the fascist that way? there are no examples that i can think of that went from democratic to fascist and stayed that way. but again, i am not as good a historian as some of you are.

[billisonboard]

... a 100 year old person is only going to have his own memories. ...

Much of what my brain uses to process ideas comes from things I have experienced through formal and self education.

[hurley1980]

Well, whatever.  You asked us how people will think of Trump in 100 years, and we have given you our opinions.  If feels like you are looking for a specific answer here that none of us are giving you.  So I'm going to bow out of this conversation.

[billisonboard]

Jun 6, 2024 15:40:57 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Well, whatever.  You asked us how people will think of Trump in 100 years, and we have given you our opinions.  If feels like you are looking for a specific answer here that none of us are giving you.  So I'm going to bow out of this conversation.

I gave a "totally acceptable" answer so I hope to get a gold star. Or at least a silver.

[tallguy]

Jun 6, 2024 14:38:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

think about that, though.  i have no memory of any president in my first 15 years of life, and only from my dad at 15 years, not on my own.  my first tangible memory of a president was the first time i voted.

I am an outlier in many ways, I think, but this is one.  I started to become politically aware at seven or eight.  That was mostly because of the Vietnam War being in our living rooms every evening, but also because of the civil rights issues and other cultural changes of the mid- to late-60s.  In third grade I attended a private school for gifted children, and one of the "activities" was to research and choose a candidate for the 1968 election.  My eight-year-old self, not believing that this country had legitimate reason to be in Vietnam and that the war should end, backed Eugene McCarthy.  I don't think Bobby Kennedy had entered the race yet when I started thinking about it, but in retrospect he would have ultimately been my choice.

[NastyWoman]

Jun 6, 2024 14:38:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 6, 2024 8:30:46 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

The minds of people alive in 100 years.  They are starting with today's kids.  People often develop political beliefs from their family, early on.  Give it a few generations to perpetuate and we are at 100 years. Mike Huckabee is giving those families a jump start at indoctrination.  

School boards are becoming more conservative activist.  I see it becoming worse, not better.  

I used to think that in a national crisis, the tides could turn quickly (i.e, the Great Depression, World War II).  After COVID, I no longer believe it. 

As for Don Jr., I think he is charismatic to the MAGAts. He will step into his father's shoes. 

think about that, though.  i have no memory of any president in my first 15 years of life, and only from my dad at 15 years, not on my own.  my first tangible memory of a president was the first time i voted.

a 100 year old person is only going to have his own memories.  he would have to be 120 to effectively recall Trump, and i am not counting on that.  so, what will my kids think is the question.

in some ways it is a harder question.  in some ways it is not.

as to Don, Jr, he will also not be alive in 100 years.  but i will add something to that portion of the discussion, as well.  how often does a 2nd generation do as well as 1st gen in politics?  i would say never, but i am sure you will find an exception.  so i will simply say that the general rule is they do worse.

we don't actually like dynastic leadership in the US.  it is something that has worked in our favor in the past, and i happen to think it will work into the future.  on that basis, i am guessing that Don Jr will not do as well as pops.  he will be seen as inferior.

but hey, i have been wrong a bit about Trump in the past.  maybe i will be in the future.  which is why i started this thread.

thanks for your responses.

This is why I said we can only hope that in 100 years Fopa will be remembered as one of the worst presidents of all time. There are 25 more presidential administrative periods between then and now! If the GOP does not reverse its direction soon the future could be very bad. 

[Opti]

Jun 5, 2024 7:50:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jun 5, 2024 4:52:23 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

this thread is running out of steam, so i will add a small part of my own opinion, here.

i agree with Tenn.  the way we can tell how a president is likely to be viewed in the future is how they were viewed in the past, and how they are viewed now.  with VERY rare exceptions (Truman being a notable one), historical opinion of presidents rarely changes over time by a significant degree.  the top 5 presidents a century ago are the top 5 presidents now, with only a couple of small changes in the 20th century.

the FACT that Trump is a bottom decile president now does not bode well for him in the future.  he will likely remain there.  the ONLY way he could change this was by doing away with history, like the Taliban did, imo.  but history is a thorny opponent- particularly in light of the fact that it is not just us that records it!

of course, our journey with Trump is not done yet.  so here is really the only question: are things with him more likely to get better or worse, from the historical perspective.  in other words, is Trump likely to rehabilitate his image, and if not, what is the likelihood of historians doing it?  this is conjecture, but i would posit that it is possible to deduce it based on what we know BOTH of Trump AND historians.

So is the question now "people" will view him or how historians will rank him? Historians now rank him low and half the people are looking to put him back in the White House.

We need good turnout again. Trump has not had 50% or better of the popular vote either time. I think more than half of the people want him to remain out of office, but we must remain vigilant and vote. 

[Opti]

Jun 6, 2024 16:47:05 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 6, 2024 14:38:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

think about that, though.  i have no memory of any president in my first 15 years of life, and only from my dad at 15 years, not on my own.  my first tangible memory of a president was the first time i voted.

I am an outlier in many ways, I think, but this is one.  I started to become politically aware at seven or eight.  That was mostly because of the Vietnam War being in our living rooms every evening, but also because of the civil rights issues and other cultural changes of the mid- to late-60s.  In third grade I attended a private school for gifted children, and one of the "activities" was to research and choose a candidate for the 1968 election.  My eight-year-old self, not believing that this country had legitimate reason to be in Vietnam and that the war should end, backed Eugene McCarthy.  I don't think Bobby Kennedy had entered the race yet when I started thinking about it, but in retrospect he would have ultimately been my choice.

What a blessed education you had at a young age. How very cool. 

[tallguy]

Jun 6, 2024 17:47:03 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jun 6, 2024 16:47:05 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I am an outlier in many ways, I think, but this is one.  I started to become politically aware at seven or eight.  That was mostly because of the Vietnam War being in our living rooms every evening, but also because of the civil rights issues and other cultural changes of the mid- to late-60s.  In third grade I attended a private school for gifted children, and one of the "activities" was to research and choose a candidate for the 1968 election.  My eight-year-old self, not believing that this country had legitimate reason to be in Vietnam and that the war should end, backed Eugene McCarthy.  I don't think Bobby Kennedy had entered the race yet when I started thinking about it, but in retrospect he would have ultimately been my choice.

What a blessed education you had at a young age. How very cool. 

Yes, it was.  Having separate teachers for each period at that age, doing dissection in science class, choosing a culture to study, taking French, etc.  I even remember the students and a teacher or teachers holding a "trial" over something that happened on the playground (I was a witness), and beating someone in chess in two moves.  It was very cool, but I only went for one year.  It took half of my mother's income to keep me there, and I couldn't really feel good about that.  I returned to public school and was pretty bored again.  I do recall in fourth grade that I would fairly regularly finish my work, walk over to the other side of the room, and "teach" one of my friends.  

[tallguy]

Back to the topic, I am just waiting for the day when the J. in Donald J. Trump stands for "Jailbird." 

[dondubble]

Jun 6, 2024 18:43:04 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 6, 2024 17:47:03 GMT -5 Opti said:

What a blessed education you had at a young age. How very cool. 

Yes, it was.  Having separate teachers for each period at that age, doing dissection in science class, choosing a culture to study, taking French, etc.  I even remember the students and a teacher or teachers holding a "trial" over something that happened on the playground (I was a witness), and beating someone in chess in two moves.  It was very cool, but I only went for one year.  It took half of my mother's income to keep me there, and I couldn't really feel good about that.  I returned to public school and was pretty bored again.  I do recall in fourth grade that I would fairly regularly finish my work, walk over to the other side of the room, and "teach" one of my friends.  

The nuns at St. Als should have gotten a shot!🥷🏿

[tallguy]

Jun 6, 2024 23:52:35 GMT -5 dondubble said:

Jun 6, 2024 18:43:04 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Yes, it was.  Having separate teachers for each period at that age, doing dissection in science class, choosing a culture to study, taking French, etc.  I even remember the students and a teacher or teachers holding a "trial" over something that happened on the playground (I was a witness), and beating someone in chess in two moves.  It was very cool, but I only went for one year.  It took half of my mother's income to keep me there, and I couldn't really feel good about that.  I returned to public school and was pretty bored again.  I do recall in fourth grade that I would fairly regularly finish my work, walk over to the other side of the room, and "teach" one of my friends.  

The nuns at St. Als should have gotten a shot!🥷🏿

Doubt that they would have had ANY influence on me.    

[djAdvocate]

Jun 6, 2024 15:40:57 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Well, whatever.  You asked us how people will think of Trump in 100 years, and we have given you our opinions.  If feels like you are looking for a specific answer here that none of us are giving you.  So I'm going to bow out of this conversation.

no, not really.  (even) if you sincerely feel that there is a possibility that he will be revered the world over in 100 years, i will accept that.  i am just trying to understand your position.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 6, 2024 17:35:44 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Jun 6, 2024 14:38:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

think about that, though.  i have no memory of any president in my first 15 years of life, and only from my dad at 15 years, not on my own.  my first tangible memory of a president was the first time i voted.

a 100 year old person is only going to have his own memories.  he would have to be 120 to effectively recall Trump, and i am not counting on that.  so, what will my kids think is the question.

in some ways it is a harder question.  in some ways it is not.

as to Don, Jr, he will also not be alive in 100 years.  but i will add something to that portion of the discussion, as well.  how often does a 2nd generation do as well as 1st gen in politics?  i would say never, but i am sure you will find an exception.  so i will simply say that the general rule is they do worse.

we don't actually like dynastic leadership in the US.  it is something that has worked in our favor in the past, and i happen to think it will work into the future.  on that basis, i am guessing that Don Jr will not do as well as pops.  he will be seen as inferior.

but hey, i have been wrong a bit about Trump in the past.  maybe i will be in the future.  which is why i started this thread.

thanks for your responses.

This is why I said we can only hope that in 100 years Fopa will be remembered as one of the worst presidents of all time. There are 25 more presidential administrative periods between then and now! If the GOP does not reverse its direction soon the future could be very bad. 

an excellent, horrendous, and valid point.  i hadn't really considered that things might get worse.

thanks a lot!  

[djAdvocate]

Jun 6, 2024 17:44:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jun 5, 2024 7:50:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

So is the question now "people" will view him or how historians will rank him? Historians now rank him low and half the people are looking to put him back in the White House.

We need good turnout again. Trump has not had 50% or better of the popular vote either time. I think more than half of the people want him to remain out of office, but we must remain vigilant and vote. 

the question is how FUTURE people will view him- not now.  100 years ago, people put Harding in office and he was an inferior candidate.  8 years ago, people put Trump in office, and he was an inferior candidate.  as Nasty pointed out, there are 25 more chances to do worse in the next hundred years.

so the question is not how he is viewed now.  i am positing that how people view Harding NOW is how historians view him because people (even tallguy) have no experience with Harding, and because historians try to capture facts in the arc of history (by some relevant standard), rather than their "feelings".  who will people of the future consult?  maybe that is the best question to consider in evaluating this.

edit: phrased another way, is how will this exciting, dynamic, and visionary version of Trump that some hold wear over time based on what I BELIEVE is the evidence that he is nothing of the sort.  do we live in a post-truth world where this kind of rubbish will stick around for a century?  these are the questions i am thinking about- but i am trying to ask the question in a pithy way.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 6, 2024 18:43:04 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 6, 2024 17:47:03 GMT -5 Opti said:

What a blessed education you had at a young age. How very cool. 

Yes, it was.  Having separate teachers for each period at that age, doing dissection in science class, choosing a culture to study, taking French, etc.  I even remember the students and a teacher or teachers holding a "trial" over something that happened on the playground (I was a witness), and beating someone in chess in two moves.  It was very cool, but I only went for one year.  It took half of my mother's income to keep me there, and I couldn't really feel good about that.  I returned to public school and was pretty bored again.  I do recall in fourth grade that I would fairly regularly finish my work, walk over to the other side of the room, and "teach" one of my friends.  

what "system" did they use?  was it a Deweyite school?

[tallguy]

Jun 7, 2024 1:14:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 6, 2024 18:43:04 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Yes, it was.  Having separate teachers for each period at that age, doing dissection in science class, choosing a culture to study, taking French, etc.  I even remember the students and a teacher or teachers holding a "trial" over something that happened on the playground (I was a witness), and beating someone in chess in two moves.  It was very cool, but I only went for one year.  It took half of my mother's income to keep me there, and I couldn't really feel good about that.  I returned to public school and was pretty bored again.  I do recall in fourth grade that I would fairly regularly finish my work, walk over to the other side of the room, and "teach" one of my friends.  

what "system" did they use?  was it a Deweyite school?

I have absolutely no idea.  I was eight. 

I could link you to what should be the current website.  I'm pretty sure it is the same school.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 7, 2024 1:37:48 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 7, 2024 1:14:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

what "system" did they use?  was it a Deweyite school?

I have absolutely no idea.  I was eight. 

I could link you to what should be the current website.  I'm pretty sure it is the same school.

please do!

[Opti]

DJ, I was commenting on Bill's comment -

Historians now rank him low and half the people are looking to put him back in the White House

[djAdvocate]

Jun 7, 2024 5:44:08 GMT -5 Opti said:

DJ, I was commenting on Bill's comment -

Historians now rank him low and half the people are looking to put him back in the White House

understood.

and i think that statement is false, as you pointed out.
first of all, let's start with "the people".  presumably that would include all US citizens.
there are 330M of them.  less than 25% tried to put him back in office last time.
if we mean voters, there are 230 million of them.  so, again, that is about 33%, not half.  and if we take this further, to actual voters, it is STILL less than 50% (as you pointed out).

so, no- less than half of "the people" want Trump.  even less than half of the voters.  even fewer American citizens.

i think that ultimately, historians reflect the view of the majority, with minor deviations.  and there are reciprocal reasons for this.

[NastyWoman]

Jun 6, 2024 17:44:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jun 5, 2024 7:50:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

So is the question now "people" will view him or how historians will rank him? Historians now rank him low and half the people are looking to put him back in the White House.

We need good turnout again. Trump has not had 50% or better of the popular vote either time. I think more than half of the people want him to remain out of office, but we must remain vigilant and vote. 

Cold comfort. If you think that should keep keep you safe think again while reflecting on this: in 1933, the last uncontested/fair election in Germany until after WWII, the Nazis won just 43% of the vote. There are tens of millions of people who died as a result of that election. With the increasing embrace of fascism/totalitarianism disguised as nationalism the country is getting far to close to falling of the slippery slope into a ravine. 

Note that I have rarely hoped to be wrong as strongly as I am now for,if I am not, it will spell disaster not just for the US but the entire world

[happyhoix]

Jun 5, 2024 9:02:13 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

I think in people's minds Trump will stay on the pedestal he now occupies with the MAGAts, and gain even more support.  I would like to think historians would continue to rank him low, but I have my doubts. 

Mike Huckabee is doing his very best to capture the hearts and minds of the kids in this country by flooding them with propaganda.  

thekidsguide.com/trumpelectionbundle/?promotioncode=T44RB24H&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwmYCzBhA6EiwAxFwfgGgzOMW8Mf2cXEu3s4EhCZMaWJeQQH6KXOlin70HQzaQWtFXhNisRhoC7rkQAvD_BwE

Trump will age out, but I think Don Jr. is primed to step in and run for office at some point. It's scary to think of a Trump political dynasty along the lines of the Kennedys and Bushes. 

I don’t think Don jr has the same type of confidential swagger the minions like from his dad. He and his wife always come across as slightly crazed. Plus I think he lacks the need to attention and admiration that drives his dad.

There’s about a thousand other wanna be MAGA kings out there, though. Some will grab the mantle.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 7, 2024 15:18:08 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Jun 6, 2024 17:44:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

We need good turnout again. Trump has not had 50% or better of the popular vote either time. I think more than half of the people want him to remain out of office, but we must remain vigilant and vote. 

Cold comfort. If you think that should keep keep you safe think again while reflecting on this: in 1933, the last uncontested/fair election in Germany until after WWII, the Nazis won just 43% of the vote. There are tens of millions of people who died as a result of that election. With the increasing embrace of fascism/totalitarianism disguised as nationalism the country is getting far to close to falling of the slippery slope into a ravine. 

Note that I have rarely hoped to be wrong as strongly as I am now for,if I am not, it will spell disaster not just for the US but the entire world

interesting number, no?  that is quite similar to the Trump vote.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 7, 2024 16:59:13 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Jun 5, 2024 9:02:13 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

I think in people's minds Trump will stay on the pedestal he now occupies with the MAGAts, and gain even more support.  I would like to think historians would continue to rank him low, but I have my doubts. 

Mike Huckabee is doing his very best to capture the hearts and minds of the kids in this country by flooding them with propaganda.  

thekidsguide.com/trumpelectionbundle/?promotioncode=T44RB24H&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwmYCzBhA6EiwAxFwfgGgzOMW8Mf2cXEu3s4EhCZMaWJeQQH6KXOlin70HQzaQWtFXhNisRhoC7rkQAvD_BwE

Trump will age out, but I think Don Jr. is primed to step in and run for office at some point. It's scary to think of a Trump political dynasty along the lines of the Kennedys and Bushes. 

I don’t think Don jr has the same type of confidential swagger the minions like from his dad. He and his wife always come across as slightly crazed. Plus I think he lacks the need to attention and admiration that drives his dad.

There’s about a thousand other wanna be MAGA kings out there, though. Some will grab the mantle.

he comes off as a cheap imitation.  like DeSantis in the primary.  not a good look.

[billisonboard]

Jun 6, 2024 14:51:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 6, 2024 14:38:07 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

If he succeeds, not everyone is going to agree on how they view him in 100 years.  Those who want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen will view him as the savior of our country.  The man who brought us back to the Christian nation we are supposed (in their minds) be.  Others will view him as the one who destroy our democracy. But thats only if he wins and project 2025 becomes and stays the law of the land. 

There is also the chance that he succeeds and everything goes to crap, and we elect his predecessor who undoes all he messed up.  It is impossible to know how people will view him 100 years from now since we won't know what the world will look like in 100 years.   Too many different outcomes could happen in the next century.  I know you know this!  

Hell, humans may not even exist 100 years from now, or there will be so few of them, it will be a wasteland of outlaws like Mad Max.  

yes, of course.  but what i am asking here (and i think TG answered it quite well) is how many outcomes would rehabilitate him in the view of a person looking back 100 years?

i am sure that bills would say i lack imagination.  and maybe that is true.  but i can only imagine TWO outcomes that would guarantee him a slot above where he is.  the first is that he comes around and does some good things for America, and apologizes for all the things he messed up on.  the other is that HISTORIANS will remember him more fondly.

ALL of the other possibilities i can think of involve him doing worse than he is now.  and that is pretty measurable, too.

again, i don't think it is that hard.  you just have to look at the long arc of history and find analogues for Trump and read about them.  almost to a person, they are not viewed well.  in fact, i can't think of a single Trumpy example that is viewed kindly by MOST people today.

why do i even care?  because i think if we COULD find someone, our chances of ridding ourselves of him and his nuisance is practically nil.  get me?

The fact that you think about what I would say is a great sign you have an active imagination.

[seriousthistime]

True, about Don Jr., but after G.W. Bush got elected, I would say he probably doesn't need it.  He's got the name and that may be enough. 

However, he likely won't be relying on the National Enquirer to elevate him to celebrity status. 

[busymom]

I'm finding it difficult to understand why a number of people want to be his VP.  It's like they have a death wish...

[billisonboard]

Jun 8, 2024 11:17:26 GMT -5 busymom said:

I'm finding it difficult to understand why a number of people want to be his VP.  It's like they have a death wish...

Or a death of Trump wish. For most (all?) the only hope they have of ever being POTUS is to be VPOTUS and assume the office by succession. That potential of power has to be an irresistible pull for those with that ambition.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 8, 2024 11:13:01 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

True, about Don Jr., but after G.W. Bush got elected, I would say he probably doesn't need it.  He's got the name and that may be enough. 

However, he likely won't be relying on the National Enquirer to elevate him to celebrity status. 

GW also seemed like a cheap imitation to me.
i had SOME respect for his dad.
i had none for W.

[Opti]

Jun 8, 2024 11:17:26 GMT -5 busymom said:

I'm finding it difficult to understand why a number of people want to be his VP.  It's like they have a death wish...

I think they don't know how awful it would be to work closely with him until it happens. Apparently, he can be charming to some for a period of time until the mask slips. I think he can hide his worst impulses to people he mostly joins on stage for less than an hour.