Fair Pay For A Day’s Work

[Pink Cashmere]

There are many new hires that constantly complain about the pay at my job. They are argumentative about it, and say that us “old heads” are sheeple because we don’t have an issue with the pay.

It has started getting on my nerves, because if it’s not enough money for you, go work somewhere else that pays better.

Years ago, there was a newer employee that I worked with, and she complained that she wasn’t being paid enough money. But when she got fired, you best believe she worked with the union to fight to get that same job back, that she said didn’t pay her shit.

New hires start at over $18/hour, at least, and you don’t have to have a college degree or special skills to get those starter jobs. In less than a couple years, they will be making at least $20/hour. I know that that hourly wage goes farther in some parts of the country than in other parts of the country. But regardless, nobody is forcing you to work there. And I don’t like the trend of making people that have worked there for decades, being the enemy when we try to point out the benefits of working there. My employer sends me a statement every year, detailing how much it costs to employ me, with my salary and the benefits they provide. The costs of my benefits is almost half of my salary now. 

Anyway, these employees start at more than the $15/hour wage I’ve seen tossed around for a few years now as a bare minimum, living wage. And their job comes with benefits. 

Am I the asshole for thinking they should should STFU or just find another job that also requires just a HS diploma or GED, and no specific skills, but pays better?

[Tennesseer]

Without mentioning the employer I worked for for thirty years, there is a Facebook group for active and retired employees.  The Facebook group contains about 35,000 past and present employees.  I belong to it.

I don't follow it too much as the complaints about pay for newer employees are the same complaints as your group.  Also there is a lot of complaining about benefits too.  The newer employees also don't want to hear old timers' thoughts on the issues.

When the complaining becomes the only discussion I will unfollow the group.  But before I do, I post a picture of an open exit  door. 

[msventoux]

I tend to get jumped on verbally in real life when expressing similar sentiments, but isn’t it essentially an entitlement attitude?  

I had a second job in the back office of a major retailer while I was a non-traditional student in college.  The starting pay then wasn’t horrible for non-skilled labor of various types, somewhat more than minimum wage. The job duties were clearly defined. There were always multiple people bitching in the break room that they weren’t being paid enough to do X, Y or Z duty that was in their job description. Then quit and find a better job, or show some initiative to get promoted so you don’t have to do that particular duty any longer?  

I had a hard time mustering sympathy for them when I was working full-time, going to college part-time, and doing that job part-time. I didn’t want to be stuck there, or at entry level of my main job, so I was taking steps to make my situation better.  The retailer wasn’t a great career, but honestly for pretty brainless work that I could do at the end of a full workday, it served its purpose and was a nice change from my main work and school.  If you showed up on time and at least tried to do your job you received merit increases to your hourly wage in addition to your annual raise. 

[Pink Cashmere]

Sept 9, 2023 18:12:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Without mentioning the employer I worked for for thirty years, there is a Facebook group for active and retired employees.  The Facebook group contains about 35,000 past and present employees.  I belong to it.

I don't follow it too much as the complaints about pay for newer employees are the same complaints as your group.  Also there is a lot of complaining about benefits too.  The newer employees also don't want to hear old timers' thoughts on the issues.

When the complaining becomes the only discussion I will unfollow the group.  But before I do, I post a picture of an open exit  door. 

I think I know the employer you mention.

Several years ago, while we were out and about, Mister and I ran into someone Mister knew that had worked there long enough for him to retire. That guy was fussing about how the “new” people didn’t really want to work, and how they acted. This was way before the pandemic when companies started making excuses saying nobody wants to work.

What I thought then, and came to believe after seeing what’s happened where I work….. I try not to generalize, but it does seem like younger people are not as willing to do the kind of manual labor that prior generations did. At my job, they clock in and then leave to go get something to eat, which is stealing time by itself. Lately a lot of them have been fired and escorted out of the building for stealing tangible items. That has happened more in the last couple of years, than all the other 25 years I’ve worked there combined.

I do not feel bad for anybody that gets fired for stealing. Thieves that steal where I work, jeopardize my livelihood, so yes, figure out who they are and fire them, asap.

One woman that got caught stealing and fired a couple years ago, wrote on her FB page that our employer didn’t pay her enough, that’s why she was stealing. She’s a dummy anyway, because posting that was admitting to stealing from our employer, but I was good with that, because she got caught and couldn’t work there anymore.

There was something else I meant to say, regarding your post, but I lost that thought and can’t remember it

[Pink Cashmere]

Sept 9, 2023 18:28:26 GMT -5 msventoux said:

I tend to get jumped on verbally in real life when expressing similar sentiments, but isn’t it essentially an entitlement attitude?  

I had a second job in the back office of a major retailer while I was a non-traditional student in college.  The starting pay then wasn’t horrible for non-skilled labor of various types, somewhat more than minimum wage. The job duties were clearly defined. There were always multiple people bitching in the break room that they weren’t being paid enough to do X, Y or Z duty that was in their job description. Then quit and find a better job, or show some initiative to get promoted so you don’t have to do that particular duty any longer?  

I had a hard time mustering sympathy for them when I was working full-time, going to college part-time, and doing that job part-time. I didn’t want to be stuck there, or at entry level of my main job, so I was taking steps to make my situation better.  The retailer wasn’t a great career, but honestly for pretty brainless work that I could do at the end of a full workday, it served its purpose and was a nice change from my main work and school.  If you showed up on time and at least tried to do your job you received merit increases to your hourly wage in addition to your annual raise. 

When I first started working for my employer, part of my job included removing rubber bands from what people had put rubber bands around to keep their stuff together.

I was making more money than I ever had in my life, and my thought was that if my employer wanted to pay me more money than I’d ever made, to fool with rubber bands….. nothing was leaving my area without me removing the rubber bands lol.
 

[Tennesseer]

Sept 9, 2023 18:42:03 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Sept 9, 2023 18:12:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Without mentioning the employer I worked for for thirty years, there is a Facebook group for active and retired employees.  The Facebook group contains about 35,000 past and present employees.  I belong to it.

I don't follow it too much as the complaints about pay for newer employees are the same complaints as your group.  Also there is a lot of complaining about benefits too.  The newer employees also don't want to hear old timers' thoughts on the issues.

When the complaining becomes the only discussion I will unfollow the group.  But before I do, I post a picture of an open exit  door. 

I think I know the employer you mention.

Several years ago, while we were out and about, Mister and I ran into someone Mister knew that had worked there long enough for him to retire. That guy was fussing about how the “new” people didn’t really want to work, and how they acted. This was way before the pandemic when companies started making excuses saying nobody wants to work.

What I thought then, and came to believe after seeing what’s happened where I work….. I try not to generalize, but it does seem like younger people are not as willing to do the kind of manual labor that prior generations did. At my job, they clock in and then leave to go get something to eat, which is stealing time by itself. Lately a lot of them have been fired and escorted out of the building for stealing tangible items. That has happened more in the last couple of years, than all the other 25 years I’ve worked there combined.

I do not feel bad for anybody that gets fired for stealing. Thieves that steal where I work, jeopardize my livelihood, so yes, figure out who they are and fire them, asap.

One woman that got caught stealing and fired a couple years ago, wrote on her FB page that our employer didn’t pay her enough, that’s why she was stealing. She’s a dummy anyway, because posting that was admitting to stealing from our employer, but I was good with that, because she got caught and couldn’t work there anymore.

There was something else I meant to say, regarding your post, but I lost that thought and can’t remember it

When I started with my employer in 1975, my hourly wage was one dollar more than federal minimum wage that year of $2.10 per hour. Over the years, I took advantage of job opportunities with the company which raised my yearly income.

I mentioned that several times in the Facebook group I previously noted. The posts get a few likes and positive replies. I guess the others are satisfied with just complaining.

I understand not everyone can relocate for a promotion but there are local internal opportunities too.

[Cookies Galore]

Sept 9, 2023 18:58:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 9, 2023 18:42:03 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I think I know the employer you mention.

Several years ago, while we were out and about, Mister and I ran into someone Mister knew that had worked there long enough for him to retire. That guy was fussing about how the “new” people didn’t really want to work, and how they acted. This was way before the pandemic when companies started making excuses saying nobody wants to work.

What I thought then, and came to believe after seeing what’s happened where I work….. I try not to generalize, but it does seem like younger people are not as willing to do the kind of manual labor that prior generations did. At my job, they clock in and then leave to go get something to eat, which is stealing time by itself. Lately a lot of them have been fired and escorted out of the building for stealing tangible items. That has happened more in the last couple of years, than all the other 25 years I’ve worked there combined.

I do not feel bad for anybody that gets fired for stealing. Thieves that steal where I work, jeopardize my livelihood, so yes, figure out who they are and fire them, asap.

One woman that got caught stealing and fired a couple years ago, wrote on her FB page that our employer didn’t pay her enough, that’s why she was stealing. She’s a dummy anyway, because posting that was admitting to stealing from our employer, but I was good with that, because she got caught and couldn’t work there anymore.

There was something else I meant to say, regarding your post, but I lost that thought and can’t remember it

When I started with my employer in 1975, my hourly wage was one dollar more than federal minimum wage that year of $2.10 per hour. Over the years, I took advantage of job opportunities with the company which raised my yearly income.

I mentioned that several times in the Facebook group I previously noted. The posts get a few likes and positive replies. I guess the others are satisfied with just complaining.

I understand not everyone can relocate for a promotion but there are local internal opportunities too.

$2.10/hr in 1975 is equivalent to $12/hr now. $3.10/hr in 1975 equates to a little over $17/hr today. Federal minimum wage is $7.25. Not say many people are actually making that minimum wage now, or even that $17/hr is a decent wage, but it is not an apples to apples comparison.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 9, 2023 21:19:39 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

Sept 9, 2023 18:58:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

When I started with my employer in 1975, my hourly wage was one dollar more than federal minimum wage that year of $2.10 per hour. Over the years, I took advantage of job opportunities with the company which raised my yearly income.

I mentioned that several times in the Facebook group I previously noted. The posts get a few likes and positive replies. I guess the others are satisfied with just complaining.

I understand not everyone can relocate for a promotion but there are local internal opportunities too.

$2.10/hr in 1975 is equivalent to $12/hr now. $3.10/hr in 1975 equates to a little over $17/hr today. Federal minimum wage is $7.25. Not say many people are actually making that minimum wage now, or even that $17/hr is a decent wage, but it is not an apples to apples comparison.

I wasn't trying to make a comparison. Just pointing out fact. I will say though making $3.10 and hour was decent hourly pay way back then. Those active employees on the Facebook message board I mentioned are making more $17 as starting pay. But they want more, much more.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

I think it's easy for us old timers to focus on the positives of where we ended up work wise, it was a path we choose and we did the best we could within our situations and are satified with it, for the most part.

But I am ok with the younglings looking at things differently, and having increased expectation within their employement. If they find something better, they'll move on. If they can get changes and concession where they are they will. Elsewise they will end up settling - either quietly or with continued complaints.

But trying to get larger pieces of the pie for the rank and file isn't the worst thing to be focusing on.

[tallguy]

Sept 9, 2023 18:01:23 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

There are many new hires that constantly complain about the pay at my job. They are argumentative about it, and say that us “old heads” are sheeple because we don’t have an issue with the pay.

It has started getting on my nerves, because if it’s not enough money for you, go work somewhere else that pays better.

Years ago, there was a newer employee that I worked with, and she complained that she wasn’t being paid enough money. But when she got fired, you best believe she worked with the union to fight to get that same job back, that she said didn’t pay her shit.

New hires start at over $18/hour, at least, and you don’t have to have a college degree or special skills to get those starter jobs. In less than a couple years, they will be making at least $20/hour. I know that that hourly wage goes farther in some parts of the country than in other parts of the country. But regardless, nobody is forcing you to work there. And I don’t like the trend of making people that have worked there for decades, being the enemy when we try to point out the benefits of working there. My employer sends me a statement every year, detailing how much it costs to employ me, with my salary and the benefits they provide. The costs of my benefits is almost half of my salary now. 

Anyway, these employees start at more than the $15/hour wage I’ve seen tossed around for a few years now as a bare minimum, living wage. And their job comes with benefits. 

Am I the asshole for thinking they should should STFU or just find another job that also requires just a HS diploma or GED, and no specific skills, but pays better?

Minimum wage for most workers in Seattle is $18.69/hour.  Yes, that would go a lot further in most areas of the country.  

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

After we moved here, we found out that starting pay for deputies and EMT are federal min wage. We are appalled that people we depend on to help keep us safe work for peanuts. The turnover is high here and it is reported that the main reason is pay. Being county employees, I have no idea how long it would take for them to get up to better pay level. They are specially trained for their jobs which can be dangerous and they can make roughly twice as much if they go flip burgers. 


That is pretty effed up.

[daisylu]

Sept 10, 2023 3:33:02 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

After we moved here, we found out that starting pay for deputies and EMT are federal min wage. We are appalled that people we depend on to help keep us safe work for peanuts. The turnover is high here and it is reported that the main reason is pay. Being county employees, I have no idea how long it would take for them to get up to better pay level. They are specially trained for their jobs which can be dangerous and they can make roughly twice as much if they go flip burgers. 


That is pretty effed up.

Yes, it is.

[giramomma]

Sept 9, 2023 18:01:23 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

New hires start at over $18/hour, at least, and you don’t have to have a college degree or special skills to get those starter jobs. In less than a couple years, they will be making at least $20/hour. I know that that hourly wage goes farther in some parts of the country than in other parts of the country. But regardless, nobody is forcing you to work there. And I don’t like the trend of making people that have worked there for decades, being the enemy when we try to point out the benefits of working there. My employer sends me a statement every year, detailing how much it costs to employ me, with my salary and the benefits they provide. The costs of my benefits is almost half of my salary now. 

Re: The benefits.

I think people in our 40s are the last generation to really value benefits AND be able to decide and more importantly be able to work for benefits rather than pay.

I'm going to be one of the last staff lifers..people are moving in and out more and more where I work.

I don't know if it's entitlement per say. I'd be hard pressed to believe that a proper response to "i need a car to get to work and $17/hour won't cover my basics." is "kid. you are so very entitled. Knock it off." I think expectations are different. The rules are different.

I also think folks are still reeling from the pandemic. My DS is 19, and is like, whoa, it really sucked. I know I'm still really unhappy most of the time. TBH, some days it would really be nice to able to talk about the things that I see at work, that are quite troublesome. It is exhausting having to fake it that everything is wonderful and act in a way that signals you aren't paying attention but you really are.

And at least you are working in a spot where folks aren't worried about retribution when they communicate that they see things that they don't like. 

I also don't think that education is the golden path the betterment that it's been sold to us as.

And, I really wish it were as easy as get a new job. Sometimes, it's not that easy as "just quit and find a new one."

[giramomma]

Sept 10, 2023 3:33:02 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

After we moved here, we found out that starting pay for deputies and EMT are federal min wage. We are appalled that people we depend on to help keep us safe work for peanuts. The turnover is high here and it is reported that the main reason is pay. Being county employees, I have no idea how long it would take for them to get up to better pay level. They are specially trained for their jobs which can be dangerous and they can make roughly twice as much if they go flip burgers. 


That is pretty effed up.

A lot of child care centers pay 10-13 an hour for childcare workers.

You can now earn close to 30/hour bagging groceries on Sundays at the grocery store we shop at.

There's something really wrong with that.

One would think that, in terms of what we value, someone taking care of our kids, keeping them alive and safe, would be valued over bagging groceries.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sept 10, 2023 8:56:37 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Sept 10, 2023 3:33:02 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

After we moved here, we found out that starting pay for deputies and EMT are federal min wage. We are appalled that people we depend on to help keep us safe work for peanuts. The turnover is high here and it is reported that the main reason is pay. Being county employees, I have no idea how long it would take for them to get up to better pay level. They are specially trained for their jobs which can be dangerous and they can make roughly twice as much if they go flip burgers. 


That is pretty effed up.

A lot of child care centers pay 10-13 an hour for childcare workers.

You can now earn close to 30/hour bagging groceries on Sundays at the grocery store we shop at.

There's something really wrong with that.

One would think that, in terms of what we value, someone taking care of our kids, keeping them alive and safe, would be valued over bagging groceries.

I don't think elder care workers get even that.

I know the $8600.a month I'm paying isn't going to the people who do the day to day care of my grandma.

It's all going to the shifty corrupt administration who can't actually administrate their way out of a paper bag.

It's disgusting.

And disturbing because you can end up getting what you pay for while the one raking it in aren't paying attention.

I was going to punch the next person who praised Mr as an essential worker.

You treat us like garbage, pay us like garbage then expect us to be happy the company made record profits?! That you shared amongst yourselves?

Honestly surprised someone didn't burn the building to the ground after that speech.

It's really fucked up what we deem valuable work. You can't tell me a nursing home admin actually contributes so much more value that they deserve six figures while the person actually caring for the patients get $9.50/hr

[laterbloomer]

Sept 9, 2023 23:44:42 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I think it's easy for us old timers to focus on the positives of where we ended up work wise, it was a path we choose and we did the best we could within our situations and are satified with it, for the most part.

But I am ok with the younglings looking at things differently, and having increased expectation within their employement. If they find something better, they'll move on. If they can get changes and concession where they are they will. Elsewise they will end up settling - either quietly or with continued complaints.

But trying to get larger pieces of the pie for the rank and file isn't the worst thing to be focusing on.

This 👆 I don't think the complainers should be treating the old timers like the enemy but I don't think the old timers should be treating the complainers like they are entitled brats either. It has been the complainers that have improved conditions for all the workers tradionally. Companies do not give away any more than they absolutely have to. We need the complainers.
I'm an investor now and I benefit from company profits but I am still aware that I have just learned to take advantage of a fucked up system. I can not believe that when a company is making good money a bunch of people sitting on their butts doing nothing profit more from it than the people doing the actual work. I am in a position to take advantage of it now, a bit, but the crumbs I get have not blinded me to the fact that we are in another form of serfdom.

[Pink Cashmere]

Sept 9, 2023 23:44:42 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I think it's easy for us old timers to focus on the positives of where we ended up work wise, it was a path we choose and we did the best we could within our situations and are satified with it, for the most part.

But I am ok with the younglings looking at things differently, and having increased expectation within their employement. If they find something better, they'll move on. If they can get changes and concession where they are they will. Elsewise they will end up settling - either quietly or with continued complaints.

But trying to get larger pieces of the pie for the rank and file isn't the worst thing to be focusing on.

I am ok with younger people looking at things differently too. They don’t have to be so confrontational with us though and call us names like we’re the enemy.

One thing we’ve tried to explain to them is that we let our contract go to arbitration and that is how the stuff they are upset about got put into place. They want us to let the current contract go to arbitration, when they gained more from this contract than us old heads did. It included provisions to increase their pay specifically, in addition to the raises the rest of us get, and undo some of the other negative stuff that was done when it went to arbitration a few contracts ago.

So it’s not like nobody cares about getting them more money. They are just so ugly about it.

[Pink Cashmere]

Sept 10, 2023 3:33:02 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

After we moved here, we found out that starting pay for deputies and EMT are federal min wage. We are appalled that people we depend on to help keep us safe work for peanuts. The turnover is high here and it is reported that the main reason is pay. Being county employees, I have no idea how long it would take for them to get up to better pay level. They are specially trained for their jobs which can be dangerous and they can make roughly twice as much if they go flip burgers. 


That is pretty effed up.

Yes, that’s awful. They should definitely make more money than that.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Sept 10, 2023 11:47:42 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Sept 9, 2023 23:44:42 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I think it's easy for us old timers to focus on the positives of where we ended up work wise, it was a path we choose and we did the best we could within our situations and are satified with it, for the most part.

But I am ok with the younglings looking at things differently, and having increased expectation within their employement. If they find something better, they'll move on. If they can get changes and concession where they are they will. Elsewise they will end up settling - either quietly or with continued complaints.

But trying to get larger pieces of the pie for the rank and file isn't the worst thing to be focusing on.

I am ok with younger people looking at things differently too. They don’t have to be so confrontational with us though and call us names like we’re the enemy.

One thing we’ve tried to explain to them is that we let our contract go to arbitration and that is how the stuff they are upset about got put into place. They want us to let the current contract go to arbitration, when they gained more from this contract than us old heads did. It included provisions to increase their pay specifically, in addition to the raises the rest of us get, and undo some of the other negative stuff that was done when it went to arbitration a few contracts ago.

So it’s not like nobody cares about getting them more money. They are just so ugly about it.

then it could be just a few individual assholes at play. Calling coworkers names should not happen and maybe talk with management or HR about those individuals.

[laterbloomer]

Sept 10, 2023 11:47:42 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Sept 9, 2023 23:44:42 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I think it's easy for us old timers to focus on the positives of where we ended up work wise, it was a path we choose and we did the best we could within our situations and are satified with it, for the most part.

But I am ok with the younglings looking at things differently, and having increased expectation within their employement. If they find something better, they'll move on. If they can get changes and concession where they are they will. Elsewise they will end up settling - either quietly or with continued complaints.

But trying to get larger pieces of the pie for the rank and file isn't the worst thing to be focusing on.

I am ok with younger people looking at things differently too. They don’t have to be so confrontational with us though and call us names like we’re the enemy.

One thing we’ve tried to explain to them is that we let our contract go to arbitration and that is how the stuff they are upset about got put into place. They want us to let the current contract go to arbitration, when they gained more from this contract than us old heads did. It included provisions to increase their pay specifically, in addition to the raises the rest of us get, and undo some of the other negative stuff that was done when it went to arbitration a few contracts ago.

So it’s not like nobody cares about getting them more money. They are just so ugly about it.

Are you going to let it go to arbitration? Or are these improvements you got without arbitration?

[Pink Cashmere]

Sept 10, 2023 12:11:46 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Sept 10, 2023 11:47:42 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I am ok with younger people looking at things differently too. They don’t have to be so confrontational with us though and call us names like we’re the enemy.

One thing we’ve tried to explain to them is that we let our contract go to arbitration and that is how the stuff they are upset about got put into place. They want us to let the current contract go to arbitration, when they gained more from this contract than us old heads did. It included provisions to increase their pay specifically, in addition to the raises the rest of us get, and undo some of the other negative stuff that was done when it went to arbitration a few contracts ago.

So it’s not like nobody cares about getting them more money. They are just so ugly about it.

Are you going to let it go to arbitration? Or are these improvements you got without arbitration?

No, we voted to accept the contract the way it was negotiated between our union and our employer. If we had not, it would’ve gone to arbitration, and there’s no telling what might have happened. It could go very well for us, or it could go very badly, like it did the last time, when the arbitrator created a whole new set of (less) wages for employees that got hired after that contract started.

I went and looked at the numbers, they start at over $18/hour, but in less than 2 years they make over $22/hour, plus whatever COLA’s we get during that time, twice/year if there is inflation. They are mad because of the different wage chart for them, but that happened because we let that contract be settled by an arbitrator. They are also mad because they might work beside me, doing the exact same job, but I make more money than they do, just because I’ve been there so long.

But that part has always been like that. When I was new, I worked beside old folks that made more money than I did. I don’t see that changing. 

My question now is, what is a fair wage for a job that doesn’t require anything but a HS diploma, no special skills?

[laterbloomer]

Sept 10, 2023 12:35:29 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Sept 10, 2023 12:11:46 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Are you going to let it go to arbitration? Or are these improvements you got without arbitration?

No, we voted to accept the contract the way it was negotiated between our union and our employer. If we had not, it would’ve gone to arbitration, and there’s no telling what might have happened. It could go very well for us, or it could go very badly, like it did the last time, when the arbitrator created a whole new set of (less) wages for employees that got hired after that contract started.

I went and looked at the numbers, they start at over $18/hour, but in less than 2 years they make over $22/hour, plus whatever COLA’s we get during that time, twice/year if there is inflation. They are mad because of the different wage chart for them, but that happened because we let that contract be settled by an arbitrator. They are also mad because they might work beside me, doing the exact same job, but I make more money than they do, just because I’ve been there so long.

But that part has always been like that. When I was new, I worked beside old folks that made more money than I did. I don’t see that changing. 

My question now is, what is a fair wage for a job that doesn’t require anything but a HS diploma, no special skills?

Congratulations on your contract.

I have always found it odd that the skill set is what determines the value for the frontline positions. This is a logic that favours management and we need to break free of it. The fact is that job needs to be done for the company to be profitable. So it's valuable. And we don't use the same competitive standard for CEO's. There are lots of people that would do their jobs for a lot less but they are still paid exorbitant amounts. And it's not based on talent because lots of them fail and still get ridiculous pay cheques.

[ajmom]

This is an interesting post. I could have written about this 40 years ago when I first got out of college and got a promising job as an outside plant engineer for New York Telephone. People complaining about time wasters of the youth reminds me back then of an engineer in his forties, who promised to “show me the ropes”. Turns out he was just a big time waster. He took me to his house and introduced me to his daughter, and then he took me to his dental appointment… no sick leave for him. He wasn’t even a good engineer, and how he managed to keep his job I will never know.

So there have always been and will always be time wasters and those who shirk

It didn’t really bother me over the years if people complained about their pay check. (Now I worked for federal govt). I was content in my pay and the flexibility it provided in my part time status so I could better look after my kids.

I didn’t mind others complaining or even goofing off and me having to sometimes pick up the slack with no thanks.

The only thing that really bothered me was the hypocrisy of management who pretended we were one happy family, but who played favorites. Managers complained the most. I DID get bothered by their complaints. Lol. So I was so glad to finally retire. Now I teach music and help out at the elementary school. More in line with what I always wanted to do.

[bean29]

Couple thoughts. I posted about my conversation with my DN about Union Trade jobs in What are you Doing RN-OT earlier. One thing I asked him was what happens with the defined contribution plans if someone decides carpentry is not for them can they take their $ with them like a 401K? He said he did not know, but same had occurred to him.

I would not blame some “newbie” employees being unhappy with a bifurcated agreement where older employees have defined benefit pensions and newer ones have defined contributions and the $$ contributed are vastly different.

Two nephews are teachers, we also discussed that we felt teaching is a very difficult job, and no longer well paid. DN mentioned that teaching jobs are had are hard to fill rn.
-

[scgal]

I always felt that a person accepted the money with the position going in. If they want more they can ask but if turned down they have a choice move on or stay it is really simple. I lost alot of good workers who wanted more I tried to get more sometimes succeeded but if it wasn't what they were expecting then they would leave. I don't blame them even the ones who were unreasonable with their expectations, they will find out how it works. I am currently dealing with a promoted employee who pay should be increased by 20% for her skill set the company gave the normal 4%. I will continue to fight for her but they probably won't budge and she will leave with all the training we gave. Dumb move on the company. 

Another problem is "living wage" what the hell is that. Most of the people I know were broke in the beginning too we just worked longer hours more days. We figured it out, as skill sets improved, opportunities opened we received more. I have a son in law that sees his parents and us in what we have and tries to go out and "finance" that lifestyle. My daughter has her hands full there. 
It took us 35 yrs to accomplish this you just don't wake us and say I have it.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I think the problem with a "living wage" is that what you need to live like food and shelter are not in our control.   I know Phil has constantly liked to brag about how affordable the Midwest is and it still is compared to say the coasts but we're slowly catching up in terms of houses being gobbled up by corporations and jacking up the price. 

We have a shit ton of luxury condos being built that have hardly anyone living in them.  I am not sure what the cities are getting out of having these things built but it is obviously something. We're talking $250k plus condos.  I can tell you right here right now that most of the people who live in these areas DO NOT make enough to afford that.

They tear down affordable single family homes and apartment complexes to build these things.   The ones sitting empty in what used to be a playground are freaking luxury senior condos.  Yes because Council Bluffs Iowa just has thousands of rich seniors waiting to live right next to a levy holding back the Missouri River after it has flooded MULTIPLE times in the last decade. 

Should wages go up to where someone can afford a $250k condo?  IDK.       Should people have the right to basic shelter?  Yes.

What would be a better thing to happen is someone stepping in and saying no more of these condos.   No more tax breaks for letting cities have these people fly in and build giant complexes that then sit empty. 

Instead maybe offer incentives to build affordable housing/apartments so people don't have to make a huge salary to have a roof over their heads.  Build apartments that people can afford with a roommate or two starting out.

We also have very little jobs coming here.  We just got an Amazon warehouse which is fantastic but they still only employ so many people.

The problem is much much bigger that just raising salaries.   I absolutely agree that minimum wage needs raised $7.50/hr is ridiculous it should have kept pace with inflation.   BUT the problem is corporations and politicians are going to continue to price everyone other than themselves out.  There is no salary that is going to keep up with corporate greed.   This is what happens when you put profit above all else.

[plugginaway22]

A $250K condo around here is a total re-do. The new builder grade cheaply finished condos around here are starting at 300K and we are in a mid COL area in the mid-Atlantic. Two people making even 50K each should be able to afford that. Yes I am now old and retired but we bought our then $150K house on a household salary of 40K. People say it is all relative but it is not.  Definitely need more salary to afford today's housing prices.

[tallguy]

Sept 11, 2023 9:47:07 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think the problem with a "living wage" is that what you need to live like food and shelter are not in our control.   I know Phil has constantly liked to brag about how affordable the Midwest is and it still is compared to say the coasts but we're slowly catching up in terms of houses being gobbled up by corporations and jacking up the price. 

We have a shit ton of luxury condos being built that have hardly anyone living in them.  I am not sure what the cities are getting out of having these things built but it is obviously something. We're talking $250k plus condos.  I can tell you right here right now that most of the people who live in these areas DO NOT make enough to afford that.

They tear down affordable single family homes and apartment complexes to build these things.   The ones sitting empty in what used to be a playground are freaking luxury senior condos.  Yes because Council Bluffs Iowa just has thousands of rich seniors waiting to live right next to a levy holding back the Missouri River after it has flooded MULTIPLE times in the last decade. 

Should wages go up to where someone can afford a $250k condo?  IDK.       Should people have the right to basic shelter?  Yes.

What would be a better thing to happen is someone stepping in and saying no more of these condos.   No more tax breaks for letting cities have these people fly in and build giant complexes that then sit empty. 

Instead maybe offer incentives to build affordable housing/apartments so people don't have to make a huge salary to have a roof over their heads.  Build apartments that people can afford with a roommate or two starting out.

We also have very little jobs coming here.  We just got an Amazon warehouse which is fantastic but they still only employ so many people.

The problem is much much bigger that just raising salaries.   I absolutely agree that minimum wage needs raised $7.50/hr is ridiculous it should have kept pace with inflation.   BUT the problem is corporations and politicians are going to continue to price everyone other than themselves out.  There is no salary that is going to keep up with corporate greed.   This is what happens when you put profit above all else.

I don't know specifically about the Midwest being more affordable, but it certainly is a hell of a lot cheaper.  GF and I had dinner a couple of days ago with a young couple looking to buy a house or condo.  They were going to look at some after dinner.  Found one they really liked...for about $800,000.  For a condo.  Not a house.  A condo.  HOA fees will add hundreds more each month to what they pay. 

Affordabillity takes into account what people earn as well as the price of housing.  I just looked up the affordability index for Washington.  Statewide, the median home sales price is $621,100, and requires an income of $182,450 to qualify.  The actual median income is a little over one-third of that, and 87.8% of households cannot qualify to buy a home.  In King County, the median price is $830,000 and requires an income of $243,950.  89.1% cannot afford to buy, even though the median income is over $106,000.  Immediately to the north, prices and incomes are lower (though still well above the state average.)  93.2% cannot afford to buy.  If GF and I were able to find ANYTHING for $250,000 we'd probably buy a few of them to rent out.  An empty lot in Seattle, if you could even find one, is probably double that.

Here  is a link to a U.S. News and World Report ranking of states by affordability so you can look at each state.  Washington is 46th by that metric, but also ranks #2 as best overall state to live in.  Midwest states that rank high on affordability generally do well or fairly well on the overall ranking.  Southern states that rank high on affordability are more on the bottom of the overall list. 

[Ryan]

People rag on the boomers for everything, but I don't know if it's 100% warranted.  My parents drove their cars into the ground, raised 5 kids in a 3 bed house, never remodeled anything, my dad fixed everything, re-used everything, and we drove on all vacations.  This was the case even after running a successful business.   My parents would never, ever just give me money and tell me to go have fun.  It would be hard to raise 5 kids on 1 salary today, but it's probably closer to reality than people think, they would just need to cut down their lifestyle drastically.

Now if I compare that to my sister in law that just got married.  They both work, but they have cars less than 5 years old.  They went on a 2 week honeymoon, they have gone to Disney this year, they have been to FL, they went out to CA to visit their sister, and they take multiple short-trip vacations.  That's not to mention the clothes, movies, and eating out.  

I think some of it is inflation, but some of it is entitlement.  Just look around at the cars people drive, the phones they have, the TVs they buy.  They want all the cool stuff, plus they want to buy a house in the area they want to live.

Just out of curiosity, I looked in my old town to see what the difference was in price from when we bought.  We paid $275K in 2004, houses are now going for $400K.  

[daisylu]

$250,000 with 10% down leads to a $1589/month mortgage. Following the 30% rule, that means the buyer would need to make $29.79/hour. I doubt many jobs around there are paying that. And even if they were, adding 5 kids plus a spouse to feed and clothe is definitely out the question.