Fair Pay For A Day’s Work

[tallguy]

Just out of curiosity, I looked in my old town to see what the difference was in price from when we bought. We paid $275K in 2004, houses are now going for $400K.

My assessed value went up over $400,000 in ONE year.  Good thing I don't have to buy my house now.  

[grumpyhermit]

Sept 11, 2023 12:33:26 GMT -5 daisylu said:

$250,000 with 10% down leads to a $1589/month mortgage. Following the 30% rule, that means the buyer would need to make $29.79/hour. I doubt many jobs around there are paying that. And even if they were, adding 5 kids plus a spouse to feed and clothe is definitely out the question.

I don't get paid hourly, but adjusted to a standard 40/52 work schedule - I make not that much more than that.

I would not be comfortable with that high a mortgage on that salary. And I'm just ME, with no debt, and no dependents. The biggest part of my discretionary income every month goes to retirement savings - and I only manage around 15%.

I don't work in a high paying industry, but I'm also not entry level.

I get why some of the old timers at may be annoyed by the demands for more money, but the reality is that minimum, and therefore other wages, have stagnated over the last decade. $15 is objectively shit pay, even if its double the federal minimum. They are right to be pissed.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

This thread is one more "get off my lawn!" away from becoming pointless....

[Ryan]

Sept 11, 2023 12:33:26 GMT -5 daisylu said:

$250,000 with 10% down leads to a $1589/month mortgage. Following the 30% rule, that means the buyer would need to make $29.79/hour. I doubt many jobs around there are paying that. And even if they were, adding 5 kids plus a spouse to feed and clothe is definitely out the question.

It sounds bad to say but home ownership is probably not for everyone.  There are far more expenses to consider than just the monthly pymt.  I think the path is graduate college, save money, marry, dual income and save money, downpayment, and then grow into your mortgage.  It's certainly going to be harder if you're doing it alone, but honestly it would've been hard for me 20 years ago trying to do the same.

I don't think anyone believes that things aren't more out of reach now than they were 30 years ago.  But I think boomers are dismissive because there seems like there is very little attempt to limit the lifestyle a bit.   

[plugginaway22]

I am a boomer and I am not dismissive. It was a different world when nice homes cost 100k and you made 30K/year. No international travel, no cell phone plans, no gym memberships, no streaming subscriptions, etc. My 3 adult children make a lot more money than we did by same ages and they need the dual income households to maintain this new lifestyle. You need a chunk of cash saved up to buy even a starter home now!

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sept 11, 2023 14:09:57 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Sept 11, 2023 12:33:26 GMT -5 daisylu said:

$250,000 with 10% down leads to a $1589/month mortgage. Following the 30% rule, that means the buyer would need to make $29.79/hour. I doubt many jobs around there are paying that. And even if they were, adding 5 kids plus a spouse to feed and clothe is definitely out the question.

It sounds bad to say but home ownership is probably not for everyone.  There are far more expenses to consider than just the monthly pymt.  I think the path is graduate college, save money, marry, dual income and save money, downpayment, and then grow into your mortgage.  It's certainly going to be harder if you're doing it alone, but honestly it would've been hard for me 20 years ago trying to do the same.

I don't think anyone believes that things aren't more out of reach now than they were 30 years ago.  But I think boomers are dismissive because there seems like there is very little attempt to limit the lifestyle a bit.   

I think the problem with rent is so many houses now are owned by corporations that aren't even in the area.  It is stupid how much some single homes are being rented for around here. 

My mortgage is half that.  Ownership is still obtainable for a fairly decent price around here.  Then the landlords complain their houses are sitting empty. 

I get it is a business and they have to cover overhead and hopefully have some profit leftover.  That isn't what I am arguing about.   What I am talking about is all these, often times overseas, corporations coming into towns and buying property all over then jacking the rates up much higher than current going rates.

We didn't even meet the person who bought my grandma's house.  I feel hypocritical selling her house to the exact type of seller I am talking about but it was either that or the nursing home was going to try to get me accused of elder abuse.  So flipping the house was the option.  I imagine a lot of people who sell their houses feel similar and aren't taking into account what it does over all to the housing economy in their area.

It's a self feeding monster at this point.  I need $$$ to buy a house, so I sell my house to the investor who can buy it for $$$, then I turn around and offer $$$$ to try to get a new house from different investor who is offering $$$$$.   And on it goes.

[Pink Cashmere]

It just so happens that this morning there were a couple of posts in the FB group I’m in for people with my job, that reminded me of why I wrote the OP. It’s not so much that the newer hires complain, it’s how disrespectful they are to people that have been there for years, even when they give non biased answers to questions. It’s “old farts” this and “old asses” that.And why don’t you all just retire so we can make more money. 

That last one confuses me, because I don’t see what one has to do with the other. 

I agree with them that the 2 different wage charts is unfair. But they don’t seem to understand that the 2 wage charts came about when we let a contract go to arbitration. There is no more negotiating at that point, it’s whatever the arbitrator decides. The union has been trying to undo that damage ever since. The contract we just settled this year, made the biggest strides for them so far, since it happened. 

So the new hires say the union is worthless, and they get out or won’t join in the first place. Their prerogative, but we would be much worse off without our union. And when they get in trouble, guess who they run to lol.

And our union is really all we have to fight with. Our contracts have included a no strike/no lay off clause for forever. We can’t strike, we can’t even talk to the media, but they also can’t lay us off whether we have work to do or not.

So after being on FB today and reading my OP hereagain, I think what I wrote was more specifically about the young people that work for my employer that are so insulting toward people that have been there for years, more so than their complaints about the pay. I guess I was feeling that if it makes them so angry that they go around insulting people, they should probably find something else. The ones that speak on it without being ugly or divisive, are fine.

[grumpyhermit]

Oh, yeah they just sound like ignorant jerks.

I do get being frustrated that things may not move as quickly as you would like, but to be downright rude, and to not be able to connect the dots between labor unions, and improved pay and working conditions, is just lack of tact and education.

Hopefully they will learn with time and maturity that that approach is going to get you nowhere fast.

[TheOtherMe]

Way back when the Air Traffic Controller's Union found out that you really can't strike.   Air traffic control location was located near me and they did not believe they would all be fired.

My union could not strike against the federal government either but they should made life more tolerable at times.  And the numbers of members certainly help when it comes to pay, pension and benefits.  

Union reps used to say while they still have to represent those who don't pay, they don't have to do it well, especially if they think they are not in the right with their complaint.

[Pink Cashmere]

Our union has to represent people that don’t belong to the union also.

I haven’t asked them, because I don’t want to argue, but I’m wondering what would be considered fair pay and what determines the amount.

[tallguy]

So after being on FB today and reading my OP hereagain, I think what I wrote was more specifically about the young people that work for my employer that are so insulting toward people that have been there for years, more so than their complaints about the pay.  I guess I was feeling that if it makes them so angry that they go around insulting people, they should probably find something else.

(An open letter to those who think that way)

There is certainly an "arrogance of youth" that afflicts many among the younger generations, but there seems to also be a sense of entitlement.   Yes, life can be difficult now.   It was difficult in the past as well.  It may be difficult in different ways, but no generation is immune from having to overcome the troubles of their time.  It is disingenuous to think that your generation has more to overcome than those that came before.  Do you have trouble getting by financially now?  Okay, many of your parents did as well.  Are you not able to buy a house in your twenties or early thirties?  Are you not able to have all the luxuries that your parents do?  Well, they didn't have all of those from Day One either.  They probably scrimped, and saved, and went without for years to be able to be where they are today.  And don't you dare think that your grandparents and great-grandparents had easy lives.  You probably couldn't have made it through what they did. 

Day-to-day life is much easier now with such a vast array of modern conveniences.  Much freer now with a greater acceptance of difference and diversity.  There are many more options available today, but it may also be much more competitive now.  It would behoove many to take an honest look at the entire situation rather than focus narrowly on one or two things.  Stop thinking you should be able to have whatever you want whenever you want, and start working and planning for it.  Stop looking at social media and thinking that is real life.  It's not.  It's an image that insecure people wish to project.  Why in hell are you effectively paying people to make you feel miserable?  Grow up, and take responsibility for your own life and situation.  Work for it.  Don't complain about it.  And STOP being angry at and dismissive of  others.  Nothing you are going through gives you the right to be an a**h***.     

[Pink Cashmere]

I do remember when my ex-husband and I first split, I got a job at a bank after having been a SAHM. I was living in a house my Grandmother owned but didn’t live in, in what had become the ‘hood. It didn’t pay well. I would go work in other departments after my shift ended, and sometimes on Saturdays, but I still didn’t make much money. Definitely not enough to move out of the ‘hood. 

I didn’t want to raise my children in the hood, so I started taking night classes at the local university to dip my toes into going back to college. Then my current employer called me and offered me a job. I accepted. I worked both jobs for a few months, long enough to be vested in a stock option the bank had given us. After I stopped working both jobs, I started working OT at my current job. 2 years after I started at my current job, I was in a position to start looking for a house to buy, a better, safer place to raise my children in. 

A lot of good things that happened in my life, were mostly luck. I don’t deny that. But there is also the fact that I was always willing to do whatever I needed to, to try to provide for my children, even if it meant parking my butt in a classroom again and trying to reactivate my brain lol. Sometimes I wonder if things would’ve been even better in many ways if my current job HADN’T called me, and I’d gotten a degree instead. But that’s neither here nor there at this point.

What never occurred to me, was to have the attitude the folks that act ugly have, demanding more pay, without any particular knowledge or skills to bargain with. My peers at my job have been breadwinners and put children through college and done well for themselves overall. One of the things I admire about posters here, and the reason I cheer them on when they are searching for better employment opportunities, is that they have knowledge and/or skills to back them up when they say they deserve better.

I do understand that times have changed since the pandemic, and even in the area I live in, where historically housing was fairly inexpensive compared to other parts of the country, the costs are ridiculous now. The house we bought in 2019, I could’ve stretched and bought by myself back then,  even though it would’ve been wayyyy outside my comfort zone Things started getting crazy soon after with housing costs and home values, and by the end of 2020, I couldn’t have bought it by myself. I still couldn’t, today. And my income is more than both the average and median household income for this area. So I get it that the increases in housing costs and inflation in general, have made things much more difficult than they were when I bought my modest little house when I was 29yo. 

But for the newer people at my job, us old folks are their allies and not their enemies. We want them to be able to get to the point where they can live a comfortable lifestyle too. But even for us, it didn’t happen overnight, and a lot of us worked OT to be able to do some of the things we did for our families and our lives. 

I am fully on board with how the pandemic changed people’s views about jobs, wages, and how they are treated. And I understand the problem regarding how we are all paid the same at my job, regardless of where you live in the country, when the cost of living varies so wildly between different places. 

When I was first hired, solidarity was a big thing. We were brothers and sisters fighting the same fights. A lot of the newer employees just want to fight, with everybody, period lol. Even with us “old farts” who didn’t make or even approve of the new rules. But we have approved of the negotiations to try to fix what happened some contracts ago that affects them negatively.

[raeoflyte]

Sept 11, 2023 14:28:08 GMT -5 plugginaway22 said:

I am a boomer and I am not dismissive. It was a different world when nice homes cost 100k and you made 30K/year. No international travel, no cell phone plans, no gym memberships, no streaming subscriptions, etc. My 3 adult children make a lot more money than we did by same ages and they need the dual income households to maintain this new lifestyle. You need a chunk of cash saved up to buy even a starter home now!

You're confusing non related issues. None of the items you listed are the reasons home prices are out of reach. The people who can afford to buy are more likely to also afford international travel because it is a widening divide of have vs have not. But it's that divide of wages vs cost - and cost of basic goods to survive, not just luxuries that make that a bad comparison.

[Ryan]

Sept 12, 2023 9:12:10 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Sept 11, 2023 14:28:08 GMT -5 plugginaway22 said:

I am a boomer and I am not dismissive. It was a different world when nice homes cost 100k and you made 30K/year. No international travel, no cell phone plans, no gym memberships, no streaming subscriptions, etc. My 3 adult children make a lot more money than we did by same ages and they need the dual income households to maintain this new lifestyle. You need a chunk of cash saved up to buy even a starter home now!

You're confusing non related issues. None of the items you listed are the reasons home prices are out of reach. The people who can afford to buy are more likely to also afford international travel because it is a widening divide of have vs have not. But it's that divide of wages vs cost - and cost of basic goods to survive, not just luxuries that make that a bad comparison.

It's definitely related.  There is no question that housing costs are on the rise.  For those that scrimp and save, then I do feel bad that it's out of reach.

But honestly, I don't know anyone that spends like my parents generation did when they were starting out.  Most people that complain that they can't afford the house are spending a lot of money on non-essential expenses.  Starbucks, going out to lunch, going out with friends, vacations, streaming services, cell phone plans, clothes, etc.  It's not everyone and it varies, but expectations are just so different.

I'm saying this as someone that is raising my kids totally different than my parents growing up.  I don't drive on vacations, we spend more on vacations, we go to the movie theatres, we belong to a lot of museums, we take a lot of day trips, I give my kids money to go out with friends, we have 5 cell phones and apples watches on a plan, etc.  I don't consider myself extravagant, but all that stuff adds up.  

[swamp]

Sept 11, 2023 14:09:57 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Sept 11, 2023 12:33:26 GMT -5 daisylu said:

$250,000 with 10% down leads to a $1589/month mortgage. Following the 30% rule, that means the buyer would need to make $29.79/hour. I doubt many jobs around there are paying that. And even if they were, adding 5 kids plus a spouse to feed and clothe is definitely out the question.

It sounds bad to say but home ownership is probably not for everyone.  There are far more expenses to consider than just the monthly pymt.  I think the path is graduate college, save money, marry, dual income and save money, downpayment, and then grow into your mortgage.  It's certainly going to be harder if you're doing it alone, but honestly it would've been hard for me 20 years ago trying to do the same.

I don't think anyone believes that things aren't more out of reach now than they were 30 years ago.  But I think boomers are dismissive because there seems like there is very little attempt to limit the lifestyle a bit.   

And I think you are dead wrong.   The cost of housing and college has risen faster than inflation and wages. 

[grumpyhermit]

No amount of coupon clipping and baggie washing is going to fix this: www.cnbc.com/2021/11/10/home-prices-are-now-rising-much-faster-than-incomes-studies-show.html

[wvugurl26]

I think there are also things today that are necessary that were not a thing for prior generations. While you don't need the absolute latest iPhone every year, at this point a smart phone and internet are pretty necessary. These things didn't exist as things accessible for regular people when my parents were starting out. You could get TV channels over the air.

Skipping a daily stop at Dunkin would be $1,157. That entire amount is not going to be savings as I would buy more kcups, etc to make it at home. Skipping one luxury is not going to make up for the increased housing prices. My house has increased in value by $100k in the 8 years since my DH bought it. And it's not just a valuation, I've seen closing prices on a half dozen units in the last year. Our salaries have not increased at a comparable rate.

You can argue some people could do a better job on limiting luxuries but I would bet in many cases it won't begin to make housing affordable.

ETA: Swamp and hermit said it better than me.

[Ryan]

Sept 12, 2023 11:22:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 11, 2023 14:09:57 GMT -5 Ryan said:

It sounds bad to say but home ownership is probably not for everyone.  There are far more expenses to consider than just the monthly pymt.  I think the path is graduate college, save money, marry, dual income and save money, downpayment, and then grow into your mortgage.  It's certainly going to be harder if you're doing it alone, but honestly it would've been hard for me 20 years ago trying to do the same.

I don't think anyone believes that things aren't more out of reach now than they were 30 years ago.  But I think boomers are dismissive because there seems like there is very little attempt to limit the lifestyle a bit.   

And I think you are dead wrong.   The cost of housing and college has risen faster than inflation and wages. 

So what younger people do in response to this is spend more on discretionary purchases?   I guess if they have given up on buying a house, maybe that's what you do.  I have heard a lot in the last 10 years about how millennials don't care about advancement or buying a house, they want experiences and travel.  Well, I guess you can't have it all.

For those attempting to make it work, I do feel bad about this.  But there are just so many that just want everything.  I  can't even remember the last time someone telling me they are going to a community college.  I look at the parking lot and most cars are way nicer than the crappy cars my parents drove.  I know people think that avoiding starbucks is not going to get you a house, but saving $100/month is about $10K more in home you can afford.  My 2 sister in laws just didn't want to buy a house, so they waited.  And that waiting, cost them a lot of money.

[wvugurl26]

The problem being $10k more of a house purchase price still doesn't get me anywhere close to buying the house my DH bought 8 years ago. Skipping the coffee isn't going to do it. And this is in an area I would consider it to be low costs versus the surrounding areas.

People don't want to admit that for large groups of people, no amount of scrimping and skipping luxuries is going to result in them being able to buy a house. The prices are too high. It's not a matter of being willing to sacrifice and skip luxuries, the math is never going to work.

My biweekly health insurance premium in 2010 when I first started my job was $65. Today that premium is $210. No amount of never buying food or drink out, never traveling, or having no streaming services will make up for the price increases. Everyone wants to say people are just soft and want to make no sacrifices but prices have gone up much higher in the last decade than wages.

[daisylu]

Home ownership may not be for everyone, but everyone needs a roof over their head. In most areas rents are even higher than mortgages.

In the closest town near me, which is not that big, even a slum lord apartment is out of reach for a lot of people. Think a 1 bedroom 600 sq ft, for $1200 a month in a not very safe area. In a city where the hourly wage is $15 an hour. That would equal to half of a person's net income. How are people supposed to get ahead?

[swamp]

Sept 12, 2023 12:20:11 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Sept 12, 2023 11:22:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

And I think you are dead wrong.   The cost of housing and college has risen faster than inflation and wages. 

So what younger people do in response to this is spend more on discretionary purchases?   I guess if they have given up on buying a house, maybe that's what you do.  I have heard a lot in the last 10 years about how millennials don't care about advancement or buying a house, they want experiences and travel.  Well, I guess you can't have it all.

For those attempting to make it work, I do feel bad about this.  But there are just so many that just want everything.  I  can't even remember the last time someone telling me they are going to a community college.  I look at the parking lot and most cars are way nicer than the crappy cars my parents drove.  I know people think that avoiding starbucks is not going to get you a house, but saving $100/month is about $10K more in home you can afford.  My 2 sister in laws just didn't want to buy a house, so they waited.  And that waiting, cost them a lot of money.

No, but cutting out your daily coffee and dropping Hulu isn't going to get you the $350,000 you need. 

I don't blame the younger generation for not wanting to buy a house.    It's a way to build wealth, but it can also be a burden.  

And I don't know who you hang out with where you don't know anyone who is going to community college.   I know plenty.   The colleges are still there, so someone is going. 

[minnesotapaintlady]

Our two local high schools run profiles of all the upcoming graduates in the newspaper in May every year that includes their future plans and I'd say at least a quarter of them state they're going to be attending the local community college and/or working.  Starting next year it's free for all graduates of area high schools, so I'm thinking that will go up.

Houses are still kinda/sorta affordable here, but not like 30 years ago when I bought my first house for 42K.  My oldest doesn't seem all that interested in home ownership.  He likes the idea of being able to move around...but...he's also only 21.  I've told both my kids that they're welcome to build on my land but I doubt either will take me up on it.  We'll see.

[bean29]

Sept 11, 2023 14:09:57 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Sept 11, 2023 12:33:26 GMT -5 daisylu said:

$250,000 with 10% down leads to a $1589/month mortgage. Following the 30% rule, that means the buyer would need to make $29.79/hour. I doubt many jobs around there are paying that. And even if they were, adding 5 kids plus a spouse to feed and clothe is definitely out the question.

It sounds bad to say but home ownership is probably not for everyone.  There are far more expenses to consider than just the monthly pymt.  I think the path is graduate college, save money, marry, dual income and save money, downpayment, and then grow into your mortgage.  It's certainly going to be harder if you're doing it alone, but honestly it would've been hard for me 20 years ago trying to do the same.

I don't think anyone believes that things aren't more out of reach now than they were 30 years ago.  But I think boomers are dismissive because there seems like there is very little attempt to limit the lifestyle a bit.   

I agree with this.  Many of the renters we have had could never be homeowners as they could not even do basic home maintenance, and at those lower incomes, they would not be able to afford to pay others to do maintenance.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sept 12, 2023 12:47:31 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Home ownership may not be for everyone, but everyone needs a roof over their head. In most areas rents are even higher than mortgages.

In the closest town near me, which is not that big, even a slum lord apartment is out of reach for a lot of people. Think a 1 bedroom 600 sq ft, for $1200 a month in a not very safe area. In a city where the hourly wage is $15 an hour. That would equal to half of a person's net income. How are people supposed to get ahead?

One of my coworkers was looking at an apartment that ended up having a massive roach problem.  The landlord wants $1700/month.   I quipped he should have demanded the landlord write in the roaches at least split the costs.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sept 12, 2023 11:22:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 11, 2023 14:09:57 GMT -5 Ryan said:

It sounds bad to say but home ownership is probably not for everyone.  There are far more expenses to consider than just the monthly pymt.  I think the path is graduate college, save money, marry, dual income and save money, downpayment, and then grow into your mortgage.  It's certainly going to be harder if you're doing it alone, but honestly it would've been hard for me 20 years ago trying to do the same.

I don't think anyone believes that things aren't more out of reach now than they were 30 years ago.  But I think boomers are dismissive because there seems like there is very little attempt to limit the lifestyle a bit.   

And I think you are dead wrong.   The cost of housing and college has risen faster than inflation and wages. 

And insurance of all kinds.  My mortgage payment itself is extremely affordable.   My housing insurance is starting to outpace my income because they are all raising their rates due to national disasters.  I am not going to avocado toast my way out of sky rocketing insurance costs.

Same with health insurance.  IDK where some YM-ers work but I have NEVER had my employer raise my salary in compensation for insurance premiums increasing.  The difference always goes straight into the shareholder's pocket.

I'm not avocado toasting my way out of my health insurance premiums jumping up to twice the cost it was last year either.   We got lucky that at the moment DH's insurance is affordable.   

I would like to see the argument about how it's young people entitlement to need health insurance in a country where you are fucked if you don't have it.

[haapai]

Sept 11, 2023 14:28:08 GMT -5 plugginaway22 said:

I am a boomer and I am not dismissive. It was a different world when nice homes cost 100k and you made 30K/year. No international travel, no cell phone plans, no gym memberships, no streaming subscriptions, etc. My 3 adult children make a lot more money than we did by same ages and they need the dual income households to maintain this new lifestyle. You need a chunk of cash saved up to buy even a starter home now!

This Gen X-er can't help but notice that health insurance is conspicuously missing from your list.  I pay a heck of a lot more for that than for international travel, cell phone plans, gym memberships, and everything else that I subscribe to.  Let me be perfectly clear about this- health care costs me more than all of those combined and I know how to find and use my marginal tax rate in order to come to that conclusion. 

I seriously believe that health care is what's turning a whole lot of us into neo-serfs. 

[plugginaway22]

Yes, it depends on your employer and what state you live in. One daughter (30s) has no fees cadillac plan thru her employer. Other daughter has a $250 monthly stipend to get her own coverage through the ACA. DH and I are purchasing our coverage through the ACA. Yes, health care costs are a huge difference now.

[raeoflyte]

Don't even get me started on that soap box. The cheapest plan available to me once my current job goes away is $941 a month just for premiums. We have hit our deductible every year for the last 8 years, so that'll be another $900 a month I have to assume we'll end up paying on the new plan (and I hope I'm wrong and that we live in a land of $50 co-pays but I won't know until we're on it).

If we didn't own our home we'd be screwed and not because of our cell phone plan.

[nidena]

I hope new folx to companies continue to raise a stink about shit wages.  I work clothing retail and thank all the powers that it's not the income I live off of.  It's $12.50/hr and that's a GREAT wage for clothing retail.  When I worked at WHBM I got hired at $10.50/hr.  Both places sell clothes that retail for upwards of $100 a piece.  The socks where I work are priced at $14.50.  Now, I understand that there are a lot of expenses that go into running these companies but I find it ridiculous that they don't pay their associates more.  Especially those of us who AREN'T doing brainless jobs.  I work my ass off at the store.  And not just on the sales floor.  I process shipment, box up and move large boxes of hangers and items used in display, am up and down ladders often because our back room has very tall shelves.  And dealing with customers is not for the faint of heart.  It's not so bad at my store but we do get some doozies.  None of the folx that I work with, aside from the management team, are working there for the wages.  All of us are retired or have other jobs that actually pay the bills.  We work where we work to get the clothes at a discount.  I'd love to have the option of benefits but that's only for the FT folx.

The funny thing is that $12.50/hr sounds pretty good until you do the math.  It's less than $2000/mo once taxes are taken out.  For shits and giggles, I looked up rentals in my neighborhood.  To rent a house almost exactly like mine costs just over $1400/mo.  My mortgage is $720/mo.  There are apartments available for around $1000/mo but they are really not great.  Now, I know those prices are cheap by coastal standards but this is Indiana.

[giramomma]

Sept 11, 2023 10:51:34 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Sept 11, 2023 9:47:07 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Here  is a link to a U.S. News and World Report ranking of states by affordability so you can look at each state.  Washington is 46th by that metric, but also ranks #2 as best overall state to live in.  Midwest states that rank high on affordability generally do well or fairly well on the overall ranking.  Southern states that rank high on affordability are more on the bottom of the overall list. 

I always find those reports to be completely out of whack for my midwest area.

Rural/LCOLA make up a good portion of my state and manage to "hide" the realities of living urban.

In my city, median HH income is about 75K. Half of the kids in the school district live in poverty. So, you are a have or a have not.

I live in a nice middle class neighborhood. The house next door to us sold for just about a half million. The average home in our county is selling for about 400K.

You are going to be hardpressed to find infant childcare for under 1200-1500 a month in home.

I'm reasonably smart. I've not yet figured out a way to be able to afford a 400K house, and a 1200+ child care bill on 75K a year with no help from parents.  Property taxes, on said 400K house are going to run over 10% of that 70K gross income.

It's like trying to improve our public school system. We have about 50 schools. All the schools have their unique issues. The school where all the homeless kids go to school has different needs from the school that serves the neighborhood with the million+ houses vs the school that has a low income population, but the kids are low income because the parents are PhD students or post docs.

No one has figured out yet that broad strokes don't work, in terms of improving our lives. We really need a lot of differentiation if we want to change things.