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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2011 15:09:04 GMT -5
And do brace yourself, once everything is settled and there is no further "business" to focus on, it gets hard. Even if you are happy about it. Not always. Other than having to help DS work though the effects of living in a war zone for years, it was like not banging my head against a wall anymore. It feels so good when you stop!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 18, 2011 15:30:28 GMT -5
I'm always amazed that people think a spouse who didn't keep promises during the marriage is going to keep promises afterward. I've been a YM member long enough to know that if someone didn't bring money into the household during the marriage, they sure aren't going to pay the credit cards in divorce.
I'm glad your ex has already moved out. Did you check to make sure she didn't take anything she wasn't supposed to? If there is anything you truly value, get it OUT of the house and into the care of a friend or relative whom you can trust.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 18, 2011 16:07:06 GMT -5
No kidding. Remember that possession is 9/10's of the law and change the locks.
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ltdan
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Post by ltdan on Apr 18, 2011 16:17:49 GMT -5
So I got in touch with a local divorce lawyer. He got straight down to business - $2,500 retainer fee that should cover most of the work (assuming that there aren't a lot of back and forth negotiations), and told me straight up that the soon to be ex would get 55% of the assets, and be responsible for 45% of the debt.
Need a sanity check - is that reasonable? Is that what most lawyers charge? And is that a normal distribution of assets/liabilities? I was initially planning on writing up my own property statement (or getting one online) that both of us would sign in front of a notary, and then file for divorce on my own. We're still civil enough at this point that I think this might work. So...let me know if I'm horribly ill informed and live in a fantasy land.
And I kind of figured that the <bleep> spouse would take half of everything.
The soon to be ex has taken the majority of her stuff. She did come by this weekend, and took more clothes, shoes, and various nick knacks which kind of irked me. (my congigo coffee thermos, pull up bar and some food from the fridge) But that should really be the least of my problems. I don't want to become petty like her and then be bitter the rest of my life.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Apr 18, 2011 16:27:07 GMT -5
My brother is going through a divorce now. They each gave their lawyers retainers of $4000. Of course they have kids and joint property.
His lawyer told him to keep everything in writing. Any property that was exchanged get a receipt for (ie STBeX picked up a suitcase full of clothes and a box of dvd movies). Any money exchanges should be done in check format so you have a paper trail. NEVER exchange cash.
DBro's ex is psycho and calls the cops on everything. She will show up at his house and demand money for groceries and if he doesn't give it to her she calls the cops. Called them once to complain that he gave her a gift card to the grocery store instead of the cash she wanted. Divorce can bring out the worst in people.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 18, 2011 16:33:53 GMT -5
$2500 retainer seems reasonable, but I honestly would expect that it wouldn't cover the full divorce even if it is amicable. When I shopping around for a lawyer most implied that it would likely be more in the range of 5K for an easy divorce, but then we have kids so that probably factors into it.
55%/45% on assets & debts seems a little unreasonable. Do you live in a community property state? I would try to factor that down so you keep most of the assets & most of the debt, especially if the debt has your name attached.
I would have a conversation with her & see if you can reach an agreement. If you can & you are happy with it, then start the process on your own. You can always hire a lawyer later if she becomes difficult or doesn't want to stick to what you initially agreed. If she is difficult from the get-go, asking for too much, wanting alimony, etc, then just go straight for a lawyer & save yourself the trouble.
Oh, and I would talk to a few more lawyers & maybe get some recommendations for a lawyer before picking one to hire. You do need to let the little things go. One lawyer told me about people wasting hundreds of dollars in lawyer fees arguing over items that could be replaced for a fraction of the cost, she advised focus on the big things & don't sweat the little stuff unless it isn't replaceable.
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ltdan
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Post by ltdan on Apr 18, 2011 16:45:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice Angel! I live in PA, so it's not a community property state. I think that should make things easier.
And I have reached out to family & friends for lawyer referrals. I'll be making more calls the rest of this week. Although it's honestly easier to discuss in a somewhat anonymous online message board than with family and friends, though. So thanks everyone for your helpful info!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 18, 2011 16:46:13 GMT -5
I know its cliche, but I just realize that the best answer on what to expect in a divorce is: expect the unexpected.
...:::"and told me straight up that the soon to be ex would get 55% of the assets, and be responsible for 45% of the debt.":::...
I don't know how I'd take that. Part of me would think that he must be a pretty bad attorney if that is the best I can hope for. The other part of me would worry that he was spot on.
I would certainly not want to have to pay alimony. Hopefully you can exchange something like "If you give up alimony, I'll give up the claim to your future earnings.
IMO, and based on what I've seen, you want to get as much up front as possible. I say that because it seems like the person who gets it all up front gets 100%, while the person who gets paid via a "promise for the future" (future earnings, ex pays debt...) gets shafted in some way. What if she lands a rich guy and never works again? How would you get a % of future earnings? Would she still pay old debt if she has no income?
And I second the "get your name OFF any debt you expect her to pay". That seems to happen a lot in stories we hear too -- so and so SAID she'd pay a debt, and it was in the divorce decree. But if your name is on it, then you are responsible when she decides she'd rather keep her money and stick you with the bill.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2011 16:56:13 GMT -5
Do you think the 55/45 split is because she is still in school? If she's in a field that requires a PhD (college English teacher, for example), then she is five years away from being self-supporting.
My ex and I did an amicable split. The lawyer just did the paperwork. I have no idea how much he paid (it was the ex's lawyer). Five or six years later we still asked each other, "Did you want such and such? I'm getting rid of it." That's still true even though we have now remarried.
You actually sound rather cool about it in your first post, but now you sound like every other ex on here. Your ex might not be out to get you, you know. You know her better than we do.
Meanwhile, what is the back story about the dog? Was she allergic? Did it scare her? Why did you agree?
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ltdan
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Post by ltdan on Apr 18, 2011 17:11:04 GMT -5
Since everyone is interested in the dog story, here goes: got the puppy when he was about 2 months old. After the first year the STBX got tired of him. She wasn't allergic to the dog, and he was friendly enough. Heck, I was the one walking him everyday. So we unloaded the dog to my mom, who began to get attached to him whenever she visited. So he's in a good home, albeit rather overweight and spoiled. And I do get to see him a few times a year. Bonus.
Why did I agree to this? Because I'm stupid, and was too eager to please the wife at the time.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 18, 2011 17:25:16 GMT -5
I think people were interested in the dog because your initial wording made it sound like she did it behind your back. Like you came home one day & the dog was gone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2011 17:33:12 GMT -5
What's important is not just the retainer but the hourly rate. If they charge a lot per hour they'll burn through the retainer faster and want more. Not that a high fee is always bad. This is your financial future and you want a good person on your side.
I'd be interested in the logic of the 45% you/55% her split. Since you've "invested" in her future by giving her the opportunity to go to school for years instead of be a bigger financial support to the household (and paid her tuition from your income?), and won't be getting any return on that, I think I'd start with the reverse proportions- at least. But a good lawyer can tell you what will fly in your situation better than I can.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Apr 18, 2011 17:53:39 GMT -5
My divorce was cheap, fast and painless. Took 3 months and 20 days, no fighting over anything and cost about $500.
I took what I wanted from the house but left him anything he would be mad about like his tools. I took half the furniture and appliances and left him the house and his new truck. I took the old car and I offered him $10K for his half of some property.
He still loved me so didn't charge me interest and didn't get an attorney until things were settled between us. His attorney said if he didn't charge interest he needed to get a balloon payment in 3 years but didn't do anything else for him.
I did end up paying for his range but got out of paying any other debts except the last 5 car payments on my old car.
I didn't want the house we didn't have equity and he would have been outraged since we used his GI bill to get it also I didn't want him to know where I lived.
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Frappuccino
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Post by Frappuccino on Apr 18, 2011 22:08:20 GMT -5
Don't count on the claim to her future earnings. If she becomes self employed, she can make it look like she doesn't earn much.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 6:19:07 GMT -5
Don't count on the claim to her future earnings. No, I wasn't saying he should get that. Judges are reluctant to grant alimony to people who can support themselves. I'm saying that the joint assets are smaller because she's been in college during the marriage- thus, little or no income to contribute and maybe incurring costs paid out of the OP's income. Since he won't be there to reap the benefits of her increased income potential after the sacrifices he made so she could get there, he should get more of the assets they now have. I know he said she was incapable of keeping a job, but will she or her lawyer ever admit that?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 19, 2011 6:25:50 GMT -5
The LAST thing you want to ever admit is that your soon to be ex spouse in incapable of earning a living. That is how alimony gets granted. Those debts must be paid off in full before divorce is granted if your name is on them. CC's and other accounts should no longer be joint.
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Post by jarhead1976 on Apr 19, 2011 8:12:17 GMT -5
From here on out only take advice from your attorney! Talk to your attorney as little as possible. You talk for 3 minutes he charges you for 15 minutes. That equals about 80 dollars.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 10:04:42 GMT -5
The LAST thing you want to ever admit is that your soon to be ex spouse in incapable of earning a living. That is how alimony gets granted. Total agreement. My point is that the OP can state that his STBX has massively increased her income potential because of whatever he did to support her collecting degrees, and since he won't benefit from that he should get more of the assets. The fact that STBX doesn't hold down jobs for very long is something neither side will want to raise- the OP because it would work against him, and STBX because it doesn't make her look good. At our divorce hearing, my Ex, who'd been mostly laying about abusing alcohol in a welfare motel since the split, told the judge he was a doctoral candidate in clinical psychology. The Ex talked a good game. In this case, he was clueless that it just reinforced that idea that he did not need alimony despite being unemployed the last 5 years.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 19, 2011 10:13:36 GMT -5
...:::"Why did I agree to this? Because I'm stupid, and was too eager to please the wife at the time.":::...
A mistake we've all made at some point.
...:::"My point is that the OP can state that his STBX has massively increased her income potential because of whatever he did to support her collecting degrees, and since he won't benefit from that he should get more of the assets.":::...
Excellent point, its all in the wording. If I ever have to go through this, I would sleep a lot better if it was a done deal, vs having to hope someone will follow through.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 10:26:20 GMT -5
I have heard that some couples are able to divide assets equally & more or less part as friends after a divorce, even to the point of seeing each other every now & then after it's all over.
I've also heard that there is a bunny out there that once a year goes around hiding decorated eggs in the back yard for kids to find.
I've never actually met that reasonable couple or the Easter Bunny so I don't know if either story is true. I do know that if I knew then what I know now about divorces (from my first). I would have hired a lawyer that only ate raw meat & that Doberman Pinscher were afraid of.......But that's just me.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2011 10:26:21 GMT -5
and told me straight up that the soon to be ex would get 55% of the assets, and be responsible for 45% of the debt.
I'd get a new laywer unless he could explain to me WHY this is going to be the case and I was satisfied with the answer.
I do not think it would hurt to call a few more laywers and see what they say. DO NOT tell them what he said, see what conclusions they come up to on their own.
Then you can evaluate whether or not you want to go with this lawyers approach or if someone else offers an approach that is more in line with what you desire.
I still would not do it on your own because you want to make sure you get it done and get it done right.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 10:46:47 GMT -5
I wouldn't recommend this to her, but you might try getting her to let you subtract her share of common debt from her share of the house equity. That's what we did (except we got an equity loan as well and paid everything off).
I do think you can have a "simple" divorce if both parties want it to be so.
If you put a judge in the middle of this, there is always the chance he/she will take the STBX's side. That doesn't mean you don't need a lawyer; you do.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 19, 2011 11:09:23 GMT -5
Second what dq said. Get a second and/or third opinion. Do not tell them what #1 said.
Oldtex - I actually had a civil divorce (my second :-( ) There were no kids from that marriage. We had no debt either. Savings and some equity in the home. We sat down and decided that I'd keep my 401K and he'd keep his (which was more). He gave me the savings in return for signing a quitclaim deed on the house. We figured the savings was approximately equal to my half the equity. We did argue over a favorite cookbook (he won that one) The lawyer was a friend who'd just finished law school. He charged us $300 to file the paperwork and we split his fee.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2011 11:16:04 GMT -5
We have two couples in our neighborhood that divorced and bought a house on the same street, or the next street over. They see each other all the time. They watch each other's houses when the other travels, etc. Both of those couples had kids - so it really worked out, although there were some awkward moments (like the random car that stayed overnight - who was that?!) I have another set of friends who divorced, and then got together once a week for coffee or a meal. I told them it was weird, and they said "Do you want us to fight and really blow up the whole group?"
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Post by jarhead1976 on Apr 19, 2011 11:16:25 GMT -5
Bro , you do not need to seek additional advice and or any more expense by getting another lawyer. Just sit back and let him do his job... Its not going to happen over night and you can bet her attorney will be in touch with yours.. The less you two argue and the more you agree upon the sooner and cheaper it will be. Over
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Clever Username
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Post by Clever Username on Apr 19, 2011 11:30:30 GMT -5
Need a sanity check 55% of the assets, and be responsible for 45% of the debt. I think you missed this point. Your reply should be: I am not willing to have my name left on any of her debt. Did you make the lists, I suggested? Sure this 55/45 is where you start. Now, shuffle until she ends up with $0 debt.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 19, 2011 12:27:53 GMT -5
Most lawyers will do a free initial consultation. To not speak to a couple of lawyers to get an idea of what to expect fee-wise & potential outcomes is just stupid.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2011 13:16:20 GMT -5
Just sit back and let him do his job...
And just let her have 55% of the assets and take on 45% of the debt?
If that is what he wants then go for it, but if he doesn't he needs to make that clear and if the lawyer won't work with him to find a solution he likes he needs to find another one.
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Post by kristi28 on Apr 19, 2011 17:52:50 GMT -5
I am another one of those who had an amiable divorce. I don't hang out with my ex, but we get along fine when we run into each other. I sent over a baby gift for his new LO just a couple of weeks ago.
Advice - keep in mind that no-one ever thinks that their divorce was fair. My goal was to end up with the best deal that I could get, ignoring what he got. I ended up giving my XH more than half of our assets, but not by a whole lot. By doing that, I convinced him that he was getting a "good deal", and we agreed to a division of property without the use of lawyers. We then paid one to draw up the documents, to the tune of about $500. I figure that if we fought about it using lawyers, I might have gotten something more "fair", but after I paid my attorney, I would have ended up with less. My divorce took about five months in total, and I have never regretted going about it in the way that we did. We each managed to get some of what was most important to us, and do it in a way that didn't cause a lot of hatred or drama.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 20, 2011 17:33:30 GMT -5
Just sit back and let him do his job... And just let her have 55% of the assets and take on 45% of the debt? If that is what he wants then go for it, but if he doesn't he needs to make that clear and if the lawyer won't work with him to find a solution he likes he needs to find another one. Is that really what the attorney was saying? From the moment I read it, I thought it was a figure of speech. The attorney is saying "It's not going to be exactly 50/50, but we'll get it as close as we can." Life is not perfectly fair, and neither is divorce. Those who get nitpicky over every little thing end up with long, drawn out divorces costing a fortune. If a settlement is reasonably close to 50/50, just take it. Maybe I'm wrong, that was just how I read it.
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