I had a panic attack yesterday.

[raeoflyte]

I didn't see your update before I posted. If that 7% is the majority of your retirement contributions and you'd still be dealing with the thing that caused the panic attack I wouldn't take the demotion either.

[Ava]

That 7% is the majority of my contributions to an IRA.
I also contribute to a 401k through payroll deductions.
It's a big sacrifice for me, but I think it's worth it to accumulate as much as I can, as quickly as I can.

Yes, the manager was very honest and I appreciate that.
But in the end, we were talking about two completely different scenarios.

He was talking about a permanent demotion and I was thinking we would discuss something temporary.

Im not going backwards.
I've put too much time, effort, and student loans to get here.

It's possible I could explain a demotion to a prospective new employer, but let's face it, that makes things more complicated. A demotion is a red flag for an employer, no matter how you spin it.

As for being happier in a job with less responsibilities, we discussed that also. The two work tasks that give me anxiety; one I would get rid off, the other I would still have to perform.
That's not enough to entice me to a demotion.

And I thought I wouldn't mind being at a lower level than everyone else in the group, but now that I'm faced with that concrete possibility, it makes me feel horrible.
Just thinking about the 4 years I worked so hard to get to senior level, the new person I'm helping to train who just started at senior level, my co worker the super star becoming a supervisor, etc.
No, it's too much for me.
But again, I don't have to answer them until July 31, so I'll wait until then before letting them know my decision.

[finnime]

That is a tough one, Ava. One consideration regarding the $ is that as an hoursly position, this job is eligible for overtime pay. I don't know if realistically you'd get that. But if you could, that could easily make up for the 7% in bonus.

Since they have offered a solution for you that even provides the same income, the landscape is now altered. They are not going to be happy with you in the same position but less stress/less intensity of work. I think if you turn down the offer you are going to have to supply good answers to how things are different for you now, so you can manage the stress without a problem and go the extra mile.

Me, personally, would not confide in a coworker without first considering other work relationships he has. If he's someone you've spoken with before about similar concerns then it's probably okay. But you would have to be aware of the relationship web he is in.

I'm wearing my management hat in writing the above. As a friend, I'd say to you that you're doing fine. You're taking care of your health and that is paramount. Know that we all support you whatever you decide.

[Ava]

Thanks fininme

I'm so nervous I haven't been able to sleep and it's 4 am.

Being hourly means they don't expect/want you to work over 40 hours.
There's no overtime.

They probably won't be happy with my decision, and I'm not happy with their proposal.

Yes, I'm taking care of my health the best I can.

A permanent demotion makes me feel horrible so it's a no.
Since they gave me two weeks I'm taking that time to answer. They seem to believe I'll take the offer so they'll go easy on me for the next two weeks. That gives me more time to recover.

As for what I'm doing to improve. Well, the problem basically boils down to my business writing skills. So I'm going to the library after work and getting a book about that to try to improve.

That's all I can do and I'm at peace with my decision and whatever consequences come. I rather be let go than be the lowest level employee in the team
It's different when you're young and or when you're new.
But I've been there 9 years and I'm the employee with more seniority. I just can't stomach a permanent demotion.

By the way, the demotiondoesn'tmean easier work. Ill keep all my duties except one. There are two that cause me problems. Onlyone would go away. Other than that, the only differencewould be that my borrowes would have lower amount loans, butyou still have to do the same work on their accounts.

You're right about not discussing with a coworker. I trust him but you never know. People in general like to talk and gossip. So I won't tell him anything about my issues.

[raeoflyte]

That sounds like a raw deal. If you told them now that you don't want to take the demotion I wonder if they'd take the time to look at any other possible accommodations. So hard to know before you do.

Are there any other openings in the company you could ask to transfer to? If you're ready to be fired before taking a demotion anything is on the table and while your manager is personable, I don't think he's been in your corner professionally for a while.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Could you take the demotion then ramp up the job searching with the extra time you have available?   The idea that you are going down a step but they expect you to continue to operate on the same level does not sit well with me.  Same stress but no opportunities and now your resume shows you went "down" a level.   

It sounds more like they would be gearing up to terminate you over time.

I know you want to stay because of the generous vacation time but it is starting to look like a "have your cake and eat it too" situation.   Vacation time is a benefit and it is something you can negotiate when starting a new job.  You likely wouldn't get as much as you do now but you may be able to land an extra week or a few more days.  

Honestly trying to keep this job going for the sake of vacation doesn't seem to be doing you any good health or mental wise.  It might be worth looking at a job that has less vacation time but would be less stress overall and you don't have a sword dangling over your head.

It's okay career wise to make a lateral move for a change of pace.  While it wouldn't look great where you currently are you when it comes to switching employers can easily explain that you decided to make a lateral move/take a lower position at this time because of all the reorgs going on in your company and how that was affecting job duties/promotions/etc.  Those are valid reasons to decide to move even if it is not in an upward fashion.  You don't have to say a word about your anxiety.   

[steph08]

Ava, I believe your best opportunity lies outside of that organization. It has been stressing you for a long time and will continue to do so. 

The pandemic opened up so many additional telework opportunities that I believe that you could find one that matches your skillset. It will take some time, but you will get there. I started casually job hunting around June 2021 to leave my the job I was in, and I started my new job at the end of January 2022 - and it is fully remote. Vacation time is something that you can negotiate as well. 

I think whatever you decide at your current job - staying at current level or taking the demotion - you need to get working to get out of there. They don't respect you, and it isn't a healthy environment for you - this panic attack shows that. 

[geenamercile]

Ava I am going to wish you luck and I hope everything works out for you.  You have been mentioning for a while now about your supervisor talking to you about your work performance and not being able to keep up, and I think there was a few times where you had to go back and fix a mistake.  If you choose not to take the demotion, I agree with the person who said you need a concrete plan on how to meet their expectations and the job duties of this position, if not I fear this will just be the start of your way out. As I have a feeling they will start to create a paperwork trail to let you go if you do not keep up with the expectations of this position.  I know you said you would be okay with that outcome, but I am wondering if part of that is because you don't believe that will really happen, just like you thought that the talk about down grading was going to be a temporary move, while the company was looking at it as a permanent move.    

Personally I don't think staying where you are at at the level you are at is a good idea.  It isn't good for your health, and I don't think the company thinks it is a good thing for them either.  I would start job hunting for something that will be a better fit for you. 

[Ava]

Thanks for all the comments.

I agree I should start working on plan b.

Today I had the evaluation they postponed when I had the panic attack.

It went well, though they gave me a lot of tasks, which is fine.

Right now, another job here in the US doesn't appeal to me at all.

I'm leaning towards moving back to Uruguay if this doesn't improve.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jul 18, 2023 15:07:00 GMT -5 Ava said:

Thanks for all the comments.

I agree I should start working on plan b.

Today I had the evaluation they postponed when I had the panic attack.

It went well, though they gave me a lot of tasks, which is fine.

Right now, another job here in the US doesn't appeal to me at all.

I'm leaning towards moving back to Uruguay if this doesn't improve.

If that is what you really decide to do I'd take the demotion then since you would be back to only working 40 hours basically quiet quit and put all the extra energy you have been burning on the job to planning your move back to Uruguay.

Then when the likely inevitable happens you are ready to go.

[Ava]

I'm not taking the demotion.
I'm not quiet quitting though I rarely work more than 40 hours.

I would love to get another job and work here a few more years. Two or three, not more than that.
But I don't have the strength in me to interview, with the anxiety. Same about working for a new company, new team, new boss. I'm afraid.
That's what happens when you're in a situation like mine for long. You lose confidence and is difficult to sell yourself to a new employer.

My two concerns about going to Uruguay are finding a job and having to live at my moms home

[Ava]

I have 6 weeks vacation booked in December.
I hope I can stay with this job until then.

Why is life so complicated?

[debthaven]

But I don't have the strength in me to interview, with the anxiety.

You may feel differently about this in a few weeks with the medication. 

Reading you over the years, I'd be worried about you living with your mother too. Living near each other? Sure! But sharing the same house ... dunno.

[finnime]

Since you have determined that you are not going to accept a demotion, I think it's very important that you rephrase your choice as a strength position, as in: I am going to keep and excel in my current job. I will get more training if needed and use my energy and knowledge to show what I can do.

When you move from a point of fear and anxiety you are more apt to fall. debthaven has a good point, too, about your medication kicking in soon. Your strength and capability will be more visible especially to yourself once that is working for you.

[Ava]

Well, I think I have a plan.

I'm following Drama's advice of quiet quitting, but only for today. So I have time to relax and take it easy. My manager is off today and tomorrow, so quiet quitting today is no biggie.

I get the idea of improving my skills as much as I can. I already got the business writing book from the library and I'm reading it. But it's not like I've been slacking forever and now I want to improve because I'm in trouble. I have done my best, I'm very responsible and dependable. Besides this health episode I had recently, I never caused any kind of trouble, drama or disruption at work. No matter what I did it was never enough.

Thinking about the whole situation, now I feel singled out and probably seen as an easy target.
There's a reorganization coming and I guess getting me to accept a permanent demotion makes things easier for them.
I don't want to dwell on this too much, but how is it he just hired someone at the senior level, is trying to hire someone else at the senior level, but I belong at the junior level forever. These people are new, the whole team including me is training them, they haven't had to prove their worth etc.
Make it make sense.
I can understand saying Ava is not promotable. But to demote me?

And he tried to sell it to me as a great thing, very positive and I should be all over it.

Anyway. That's something I have to process with my therapist.

The plan is to say no to the demotion, try my best to improve my business writing skills, do my best at work but not go one second over 40 hours because my mental health comes first.
Then once I come back from vacation in January, start applying to local jobs.
As Debt said, the anti anxiety medication is starting to work and I'll probably be able to deal with interviews then.
If I get a new job, try my best. If I can't handle it, then, yes, go back to Uruguay.

Seems like a solid plan to me

[raeoflyte]

At best your boss hasn't been in your corner or a good manager for a long time as I see it. I think the good relationship you had built up with him blurred that, and maybe for him too. He's probably thinking this incident is an easy way to move you back into the junior role where you always had a good performance rating which makes his life easier and he can convince himself that will make your life better too.

I think you have a good plan. I'm a little torn though. I think the probability of turning things around at your current job is going to be tough, so then I lean towards looking for a different job. But job searching is so hard, so I get needing to hold off on that.

Did you answer and I missed it - are there any other opportunities at your current company that you could try to transfer to? Something new but also similar?

[raeoflyte]

And...when you're in a job that's the wrong fit, it's almost impossible not to wrap up a lot of our self worth in our jobs. But this is just a job that isn't working out. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with you, or you did anything wrong. A better job for you is out there.

[Ava]

Jul 19, 2023 11:19:30 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

And...when you're in a job that's the wrong fit, it's almost impossible not to wrap up a lot of our self worth in our jobs. But this is just a job that isn't working out. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with you, or you did anything wrong. A better job for you is out there.

That's exactly what I think. I have to keep repeating that and internalizing it.

[Ava]

Since I've quiet quitting for today, hehe, I spent some time looking at openings in current company.
Nothing jumped at me as a great opportunity.

There's one in Houston Texas for a staff accountant. It's one level below me, but I'm willing to take a step back to enter a purely accounting role.
I think Houston would be a good city. I love big cities and I love hot weather.
I'm willing to move but not without a job and health insurance.

Jobs like the one I'm looking at pop up every now and then in current company.
I'm pretty sure if I apply and get selected they would let me keep my current salary.

That's is where my manager can become a true ally. If I apply internally he'll probably put a good word so I'll be out of his way.

But I'm not ready to start applying yet. I need to recover from the anxiety and I want the big vacation.

It will be difficult to hang on for a few more months. But I think it's worth it.
With the medication I was able to get through my evaluation yesterday without getting agitated or nervous, etc. And I did quite well in the evaluation.

I don't care about this job that much anymore. So I'll do my best but I'm not going to get emotionally involved in it. Now I know exactly where I stand here, at the lowest level forever. I also see now this isn't the only possibility. There's a world out there, and I will find an employer that values me and my contributions

[debthaven]

I think that sounds like a good plan!

Since the vacation has already been approved, might they allow you to take it anyway, if you stayed with the same company? (I'm referring to the job in Texas.)

[TheOtherMe]

Ava, please don't take this wrong, but you keep talking about seniority.  

In today's business world, seniority means nothing unless it's a union job.  It's the work you do that matters and your boss has told you several times you weren't meeting goals.  I don't know what the goals are, but if two people apply for the same promotion and one has not been meeting goals, the other person applying will almost always get the promotion.

It sounds like from what you have written, your manager doesn't consider you promotable at this time.

[Ava]

Jul 19, 2023 13:04:03 GMT -5 debthaven said:

I think that sounds like a good plan!

Since the vacation has already been approved, might they allow you to take it anyway, if you stayed with the same company? (I'm referring to the job in Texas.)

Yes, I think it's a good plan.

I'm not going to apply to that Houston job. I'm not going to apply to any jobs, internal or external, until I come back from vacation.

I still feel anxious about interviewing. A new job half way across right now is too much too fast for me.
Vacation booked with flight costing $1,715 from NYC.
Would cost much more transferring to another airport. Airlines charge a lot for that sort of change in plans.

[Ava]

Jul 19, 2023 15:01:36 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Ava, please don't take this wrong, but you keep talking about seniority.  

In today's business world, seniority means nothing unless it's a union job.  It's the work you do that matters and your boss has told you several times you weren't meeting goals.  I don't know what the goals are, but if two people apply for the same promotion and one has not been meeting goals, the other person applying will almost always get the promotion.

It sounds like from what you have written, your manager doesn't consider you promotable at this time.

I had a union job before I got into this company.
Union was all about seniority.
Here seniority doesn't matter for promotions and such.

The only reason I mention seniority is because we already had two people leave within 3 months of being hired. Of course management complains about not being serious and reliable.
I know I'm not promotable in this group. All I meant is I've around for a long time. I've been a good team player, honest and dependable person. It wouldn't be a big deal to leave me at current level, particularly considering they wouldn't lower my salary.
But no. They have to go in an offer me a voluntary permanent demotion. And try to sell it to me as a very good thing as if I were stupid.

It's OK. I have to look out for myself because nobody else will.

I don't want to dwell on that too much.
I have a plan and I want to look forward and not backwards.
I'm think I can stay here until mid December, go on vacation and then look for a new job.

I'm going the best work I can for them for as long as I'm in this group. That's the only thing I owe them. Do my best while I'm here.

Well, except today that I'm quiet quitting for the day, hehe

[geenamercile]

Jul 19, 2023 11:08:32 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

At best your boss hasn't been in your corner or a good manager for a long time as I see it. I think the good relationship you had built up with him blurred that, and maybe for him too. He's probably thinking this incident is an easy way to move you back into the junior role where you always had a good performance rating which makes his life easier and he can convince himself that will make your life better too.

I think you have a good plan. I'm a little torn though. I think the probability of turning things around at your current job is going to be tough, so then I lean towards looking for a different job. But job searching is so hard, so I get needing to hold off on that.

Did you answer and I missed it - are there any other opportunities at your current company that you could try to transfer to? Something new but also similar?

I am going to disagree with the bold and agree with the italicized.  My thought is that Ava's boss has been looking out for her and trying to make it work out for awhile for her.  If I remember there has been a few times where he has had to mentioned that Ava's work hasn't been up to standard, including times that Ava has mentioned working on the weekend or later in the evenings to catch up or get it done.  I think that good relationship may have allowed him to give Ava some grace, but with the reorganization coming I am wondering if he is getting any pressure from those above him, who don't know Ava, on the reasons to keep her.  I agree he might be looking at the demotion as getting Ava back into a role that she was strong in and did good in, but I am not so sure that it is to make things easier on him.  Perhaps it is to make sure with the restructure she has a role.  The fact that they offered it at her current pay makes me thing of FMLA and light duty aspect.  No her doctor did not put her own light duty, but I do feel that offer also CYA the company some if they do let her go.      


Thinking about the whole situation, now I feel singled out and probably seen as an easy target.
There's a reorganization coming and I guess getting me to accept a permanent demotion makes things easier for them.
I don't want to dwell on this too much, but how is it he just hired someone at the senior level, is trying to hire someone else at the senior level, but I belong at the junior level forever. These people are new, the whole team including me is training them, they haven't had to prove their worth etc.
Make it make sense.
I can understand saying Ava is not promotable. But to demote me?


How long you have been at a job means jack squat.  What matters is how well you do the job.  He just hired someone at the senior level because he believes this person can do that job at the expected performance.  If he hires someone else at the senior level it would be for the same reason.  Yes there maybe some training on specif ways your company does things, but I would guess/hope they have the experience and skill set needed for the job.  If you promote someone it is because you believe they have the skill set and will be able to perform at the expected quality level of that upper job. Why demote someone, because they are not performing at the work at the quality you expect for that level, but you still believe they can offer value at the company at a lower level.  Because you think  demoting is better than firing for that person, because with demoting you don't have to go through the whole hiring process and taking a chance on someone completely new who may or may not be better then the person you fired.   

[Pink Cashmere]

Jul 19, 2023 6:04:18 GMT -5 Ava said:

I'm not taking the demotion.
I'm not quiet quitting though I rarely work more than 40 hours.

I would love to get another job and work here a few more years. Two or three, not more than that.
But I don't have the strength in me to interview, with the anxiety. Same about working for a new company, new team, new boss. I'm afraid.
That's what happens when you're in a situation like mine for long. You lose confidence and is difficult to sell yourself to a new employer.

My two concerns about going to Uruguay are finding a job and having to live at my moms home

My job is completely different from yours, because I am union and seniority counts in many ways. I am dealing with that right now, because after 25 years of being a good, dependable employee, I am now a problem employee because I have severe attendance issues. My performance isn’t an issue, my attendance is. But I have a union to plead my case and point to my 25 years of service to defend me.

So I can’t really comment on your job situation. 

But what I can comment on, is that I know how detrimental it is or can be, to make decisions based on fear. That is not usually a path that leads to a joyful life. I want to say “don’t ask me how I know this”, but I like you enough that if you do ask, I will tell you, and I will also try to dig up things that I’ve read that confirmed my thoughts on the subject.

Ava, I’ve never met you in person, but please believe me when I say that your story is very inspiring to me. I cannot imagine doing the things that you have done. I don’t really like where I live, never have, but I’ve never found the courage to figure out how to move to another city or state, let alone a whole ‘nother country, like you did. BY YOURSELF! I am seriously in awe of you that you did that and worked so hard to be successful in this country you moved to. 

I think I’ve said this to you before, but I seriously believe you don’t give yourself enough credit. You are more courageous and much braver than the average person. Do I need to “yell” and type that in all caps to get your attention in hopes that you will think about it long enough to realize that it’s true?

You are a very smart and brave woman. You have credentials that you’ve worked hard for, to back you up when you look for employment that is suitable for you. For someone like you, job interviews go both ways imo, while they are trying to determine if you are a good candidate for whatever position you are interviewing for, you should also be trying to determine whether the job and company is a good fit for YOU! 

I understand being honest about being afraid to look for a new job. I really do. I have my own fears that I struggle with. But it’s not as if you would be walking into job interviews without credentials that back you up as far as being a good candidate for whatever job you applied for. Even if you have to go in the restroom a few minutes prior and do the SuperMan pose to help your confidence, I believe that you can do this. You can! It’s such a smaller thing than all of the things you’ve rocked so far.

I hope I haven’t said anything to offend you, and if I did, I apologize in advance. I just really, really want you to have a joyful life after all of your hard work and the amazing things you have accomplished so far.

[debthaven]

Ava, to be honest, I worry that you won't at that job anymore to be looking for a new one in January when you return from vacation. If you were going away in two or three months, I'd say yes, hang in there. But six or seven more months? 

I worry that they are counting on you to take this demotion, and that if you don't, they'll get rid of your position in the upcoming reorganization. I think perhaps your boss told you your job isn't in danger because he's assuming you'll accept the demotion.

I'm not sure your timeline for change is realistic.

[debthaven]

Also, I live in France, where the legal minimum is 5 weeks of vacation. You are taking 6 weeks off in December.

The new management is probably putting pressure on your boss about that ...

Personally, I'd apply to the job in Texas, if only to show that I'm willing to consider other positions and to relocate. 

Yes, changing THIS ONE flight would be expensive but if you were offered a new job with benefits, closer to Urugray, I think it's worth a try.

Of course you need to do what you feel is best for you. I just hope that your timeline works out. 

[plugginaway22]

It is amazing to me that this company has approved these extended vacations for you over the years. That is SO not the norm and practically unheard of. Since you know that you will eventually move back to Uruguay, take the demotion and be less stressed until you are ready to move. It is just a job.

[raeoflyte]

Ava - you didn't go on fmla, did you?

[Ava]

I went on short term disability leave that the company has in place