Am I the only one?

[chiver78]

Jun 24, 2023 19:56:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 24, 2023 19:54:03 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

except there isn't an "inside" as there were two separate debris fields, each of which had pieces of the hull. this wasn't a ball of foil you crumple after baking off party snacks. implosion demolished the structural integrity of the hull. 

I'm curious to see what comes of any further investigation. I doubt any of it will become public, though. 

you're probably right.  the details are probably too grim to imagine.
interesting about the two hull pieces.  i hadn't heard that before now.
i have not been following the aftermath very carefully.  once i heard
the determination that they were dead, i was kinda done with this story.
but it is interesting science, if you can back away from the gore.

you and I have very different forensic interests. for all your fact-driven posts, I sometimes forget you're not also an engineer. I actually didn't hear about this til probably Tuesday, and I'll admit to a whole lot of schadenfreude about it all. and now that we know what happened, I want to know every detail I can learn about how and why it all broke down, including the ignoring of safety approvals. so I've been reading up and listening to all of the experts in submarining, mechanical experts on gaskets/seals and the like, and I'm just fascinated now. 

[Tennesseer]

Jun 24, 2023 19:56:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 24, 2023 19:54:03 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

except there isn't an "inside" as there were two separate debris fields, each of which had pieces of the hull. this wasn't a ball of foil you crumple after baking off party snacks. implosion demolished the structural integrity of the hull. 

I'm curious to see what comes of any further investigation. I doubt any of it will become public, though. 

you're probably right.  the details are probably too grim to imagine.
interesting about the two hull pieces.  i hadn't heard that before now.
i have not been following the aftermath very carefully.  once i heard
the determination that they were dead, i was kinda done with this story.
but it is interesting science, if you can back away from the gore.

They were dead in a millisecond. They didn't even have time to say "Huh?"

[billisonboard]

Moved from another thread:

Jun 24, 2023 19:34:33 GMT -5 Opti said:

....

www.huffpost.com/entry/dan-crenshaw-titan-submersible-leadership-failure_n_6494f4a5e4b0aec6b7ffbee6

“I have been hearing a lot of concerning things from people, the civilian side who are involved in this,” Crenshaw said Thursday in a statement to reporters. “You know, we’ve got to look into it, see what’s true and what isn’t. … What appears to be the case is epic failure in leadership. Where exactly that leadership failure is, I don’t know. Is it the White House, Coast Guard, Navy? I’m not sure.”

Really? A private company loses communications with a private submersible and the US Government failed to immediately throw its full resources into a rescue effort? President Biden failed to order that to happen? Military Leadership failed? Maybe if it had been a military vessel with our troops in it ... But it wasn't.

[countrygirl2]

The older guys had lived their lives, what I keep thinking about is the young man of 19 the was terrified but went to please his father. To me that was the greatest tragedy of all.

[toomuchreality]

Jun 24, 2023 22:50:39 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

The older guys had lived their lives, what I keep thinking about is the young man of 19 the was terrified but went to please his father. To me that was the greatest tragedy of all.

Although I too think this is a tragedy, I also think the loss of all the knowledge that some of the older men had, that is gone in an instant, after years and years of study, is a huge loss.

Like with airplanes, I'm glad there are people who will go to great lengths, to find the answers about why this happened, so that hopefully, it won't happen again.

It's one of the things I appreciate about this board and its members. There are people who know so much more about things than I do, or that know how and where to find information. And people who have thought of things, that I hadn't. I like information and I appreciate everyone for sharing the information you have, on all topics.

[countrygirl2]

That is true also, and I didn't think of that. Was just focused on all the possibilities ahead for that young man.

[Opti]

Jun 25, 2023 3:53:35 GMT -5 toomuchreality said:

Jun 24, 2023 22:50:39 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

The older guys had lived their lives, what I keep thinking about is the young man of 19 the was terrified but went to please his father. To me that was the greatest tragedy of all.

Although I too think this is a tragedy, I also think the loss of all the knowledge that some of the older men had, that is gone in an instant, after years and years of study, is a huge loss.

Like with airplanes, I'm glad there are people who will go to great lengths, to find the answers about why this happened, so that hopefully, it won't happen again.

It's one of the things I appreciate about this board and its members. There are people who know so much more about things than I do, or that know how and where to find information. And people who have thought of things, that I hadn't. I like information and I appreciate everyone for sharing the information you have, on all topics.

I read how James Cameron had known the French pilot for 25 years. His knowledge definitely will be missed. 

[chiver78]

today's newspaper had an extended obit for the group of 5. this was from the section on the Frenchman. (I really hope I get the code right from my phone..)

Few knew the wonders, as well as the risks, of such a dive more than Nargeolet. “If you are 11 meters or 11 kilometers down, if something bad happens, the result is the same,” he said in a 2019 interview with The Irish Examiner. “When you’re in very deep water, you’re dead before you realize that something is wrong, so it’s just not a problem.”

[happyhoix]

There was a thing on CBS this morning showing a clip with the inventor of this submersible from several years back talking about how some of his ‘innovations’ on his vehicle broke safety rules but how it was important to not always follow the safety rules when being innovative.

Then they had an ex-Navy submarine guy who said he felt the reason this vehicle failed was it was made of three different materials - titanium, steel, and plexiglass - three different materials with three different physical responses to being pressurized. He said that’s why US subs never have portholes and the entire hull is one material.

What an arrogant idiot. “I can make it cheaper and better because of my awesome innovations - safety rules just slow things down.”

I guess we’re fortunate this thing was so small and could only fit five people. Imagine if he applied the same attitude toward dams or subway systems.

Science, people! Stick with science!!

[Opti]

Jun 25, 2023 9:42:29 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There was a thing on CBS this morning showing a clip with the inventor of this submersible from several years back talking about how some of his ‘innovations’ on his vehicle broke safety rules but how it was important to not always follow the safety rules when being innovative.

Then they had an ex-Navy submarine guy who said he felt the reason this vehicle failed was it was made of three different materials - titanium, steel, and plexiglass - three different materials with three different physical responses to being pressurized. He said that’s why US subs never have portholes and the entire hull is one material.

What an arrogant idiot. “I can make it cheaper and better because of my awesome innovations - safety rules just slow things down.”

I guess we’re fortunate this thing was so small and could only fit five people. Imagine if he applied the same attitude toward dams or subway systems.

Science, people! Stick with science!!

Cameron made the comment about the hull too. Watching my car age past ten years old and ungaraged was a lesson in materials science on my car. Rubber ages no matter what you do and yes different materials respond differently to temperature and pressure changes. 

Maybe it was innovative, but it appears it was the wrong kind of innovation, or at least one that had much lower limits to be successful than he and the CEO had planned on.

[billisonboard]

Jun 25, 2023 9:42:29 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There was a thing on CBS this morning showing a clip with the inventor of this submersible from several years back talking about how some of his ‘innovations’ on his vehicle broke safety rules but how it was important to not always follow the safety rules when being innovative.

Then they had an ex-Navy submarine guy who said he felt the reason this vehicle failed was it was made of three different materials - titanium, steel, and plexiglass - three different materials with three different physical responses to being pressurized. He said that’s why US subs never have portholes and the entire hull is one material.

What an arrogant idiot. “I can make it cheaper and better because of my awesome innovations - safety rules just slow things down.”

I guess we’re fortunate this thing was so small and could only fit five people. Imagine if he applied the same attitude toward dams or subway systems.

Science, people! Stick with science!!

He operated a small private company with entrepreneurial freedom. He would not be able to apply the same attitude towards dams nor subway systems because those are public works projects with governmental oversight. Go Capitalism!

[happyhoix]

Jun 25, 2023 10:41:14 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jun 25, 2023 9:42:29 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There was a thing on CBS this morning showing a clip with the inventor of this submersible from several years back talking about how some of his ‘innovations’ on his vehicle broke safety rules but how it was important to not always follow the safety rules when being innovative.

Then they had an ex-Navy submarine guy who said he felt the reason this vehicle failed was it was made of three different materials - titanium, steel, and plexiglass - three different materials with three different physical responses to being pressurized. He said that’s why US subs never have portholes and the entire hull is one material.

What an arrogant idiot. “I can make it cheaper and better because of my awesome innovations - safety rules just slow things down.”

I guess we’re fortunate this thing was so small and could only fit five people. Imagine if he applied the same attitude toward dams or subway systems.

Science, people! Stick with science!!

He operated a small private company with entrepreneurial freedom. He would not be able to apply the same attitude towards dams nor subway systems because those are public works projects with governmental oversight. Go Capitalism!

well, at least as long as the Dems retain some control. GOP loves to talk about dismantling all the pesky regulatory agencies in government, like the EPA and OSHA. I remember Paul used to say we should remove all the regulatory restrictions, because if you got hurt by a dam or a subway system you could sue someone to cover damages, and that would be enough to make the companies act safely. 

Clearly, with this submersible company, that wasn’t enough of a deterrent. Buyer beware, I guess. 

[Tiny]

I guess OceanGate now knows how durable their innovative submersible is.

I'm going under the assumption that the submersible had been in service for some time and had made X number of successful trips to the bottom.


It got a lot of real world testing!

[thyme4change]

The mental gymnastics these people go through to redefine the world. They didn’t hire 50 year old white guys because young guys are cheaper and will not make as much noise when the CEO does something stupid.

And to say that Democrats are the ones that support deregulation??!! WTF



Conservatives Are Now Blaming The Titanic Sub Tragedy On 'Wokeness'


www.huffpost.com/entry/lost-titanic-sub-wokeness_n_64949559e4b0c0ed59b12b5c

[djAdvocate]

Jun 24, 2023 20:05:42 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jun 24, 2023 19:56:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

you're probably right.  the details are probably too grim to imagine.
interesting about the two hull pieces.  i hadn't heard that before now.
i have not been following the aftermath very carefully.  once i heard
the determination that they were dead, i was kinda done with this story.
but it is interesting science, if you can back away from the gore.

you and I have very different forensic interests. for all your fact-driven posts, I sometimes forget you're not also an engineer. I actually didn't hear about this til probably Tuesday, and I'll admit to a whole lot of schadenfreude about it all. and now that we know what happened, I want to know every detail I can learn about how and why it all broke down, including the ignoring of safety approvals. so I've been reading up and listening to all of the experts in submarining, mechanical experts on gaskets/seals and the like, and I'm just fascinated now. 

sure i am.  BSME.

but what i see here is a bunch of amateurs with no background in Engineering using an unproven design with a material not known for fatigue resistance, and risking five lives doing it.  i think the ultimate conclusion here is that they didn't rigorously test this idea, and they didn't do comprehensive inspections.  there is no amount of safety protocol that would have helped this catastrophic failure, imo.  it was a flawed design and unfortunately for them, they paid for it with their lives.

but if you find out something REALLY interesting that subverts my dismissiveness, by all means post it.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 25, 2023 12:54:22 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I guess OceanGate now knows how durable their innovative submersible is.

I'm going under the assumption that the submersible had been in service for some time and had made X number of successful trips to the bottom.


It got a lot of real world testing!

right.  it is good for about a dozen trips down.  that's it.
so, like they got the lucky draw.  #13.  Just like the Apollo mission.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 25, 2023 13:40:33 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The mental gymnastics these people go through to redefine the world. They didn’t hire 50 year old white guys because young guys are cheaper and will not make as much noise when the CEO does something stupid.

And to say that Democrats are the ones that support deregulation??!! WTF



Conservatives Are Now Blaming The Titanic Sub Tragedy On 'Wokeness'


www.huffpost.com/entry/lost-titanic-sub-wokeness_n_64949559e4b0c0ed59b12b5c

by wokeness, you mean like the FDA?

why have a bunch of people experienced in food safety, when you can leave it up to a bunch of white guys to run their own plants, producing drugs and meat for Americans?

oh, that's right.  because they will cut corners, and kill people.
forgot about that part.

maybe this mission could have used a little bit MORE wokeness.
after all, woke means AWARE.

[chiver78]

Jun 25, 2023 13:55:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 24, 2023 20:05:42 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

you and I have very different forensic interests. for all your fact-driven posts, I sometimes forget you're not also an engineer. I actually didn't hear about this til probably Tuesday, and I'll admit to a whole lot of schadenfreude about it all. and now that we know what happened, I want to know every detail I can learn about how and why it all broke down, including the ignoring of safety approvals. so I've been reading up and listening to all of the experts in submarining, mechanical experts on gaskets/seals and the like, and I'm just fascinated now. 

sure i am.  BSME.

but what i see here is a bunch of amateurs with no background in Engineering using an unproven design with a material not known for fatigue resistance, and risking five lives doing it.  i think the ultimate conclusion here is that they didn't rigorously test this idea, and they didn't do comprehensive inspections.  there is no amount of safety protocol that would have helped this catastrophic failure, imo.  it was a flawed design and unfortunately for them, they paid for it with their lives.

but if you find out something REALLY interesting that subverts my dismissiveness, by all means post it.

my bad, I definitely missed that. you are way better versed in the financial world than most of the engineers I know (including myself). cheers, I'm a BSChE who stumbled into instrumentation & controls out of the gate. 

and yes, I've been reading on failure rates, etc, for the materials used in the seals and gaskets. it sounds at first pass that this is related to fatigue. truly, these things should have been tested at length before just going out and using them. because then it becomes a game of Russian Roulette to see who's onboard when the stuff finally fails. 

[djAdvocate]

Jun 25, 2023 14:06:46 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jun 25, 2023 13:55:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

sure i am.  BSME.

but what i see here is a bunch of amateurs with no background in Engineering using an unproven design with a material not known for fatigue resistance, and risking five lives doing it.  i think the ultimate conclusion here is that they didn't rigorously test this idea, and they didn't do comprehensive inspections.  there is no amount of safety protocol that would have helped this catastrophic failure, imo.  it was a flawed design and unfortunately for them, they paid for it with their lives.

but if you find out something REALLY interesting that subverts my dismissiveness, by all means post it.

my bad, I definitely missed that. you are way better versed in the financial world than most of the engineers I know (including myself). cheers, I'm a BSChE who stumbled into instrumentation & controls out of the gate. 

and yes, I've been reading on failure rates, etc, for the materials used in the seals and gaskets. it sounds at first pass that this is related to fatigue. truly, these things should have been tested at length before just going out and using them. because then it becomes a game of Russian Roulette to see who's onboard when the stuff finally fails. 

it seems like you could test this in some massive pressure vessel or do a scale test in something smaller.  a N2 tank is good for this kind of pressure.  run 100 or 1000 cycles, and inspect it for cracks.  seems pretty easy, if you can budget maybe $50k for that.  so, really, this came down to a failure to spend money up front on this.  and that killed 5 people.  that should end them as a business.

controls engineer?  heavy.  respect.

[chiver78]

thanks, you're not too shabby yourself.   

you could absolutely test this in a massive pressure vessel. there's a fantastic place here on Cape Cod that is capable of doing just that - Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. this failure was entirely preventable with good engineering practices, and was a result of a whole hell of a lot of hubris. Stockton Rush was quoted* last winter - "You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed, don't get in your car, don't do anything. At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk-reward question." 

how do you feel comfortable using a material that's never been used before on a submersible, to go to that severe of a depth, without major testing? validation qual requires three runs that produce the same results. there's no indication that they even did that. this article contains quotes of Rush complaining about the strict safety oversight stifling innovation. I feel badly for the other four men that put their lives in the hands of this egotist, but they should have done a little more research into the lack of safety testing and the like before literally signing away their lives. 


*quote source, one of many to carry this quote. 

[djAdvocate]

Jun 25, 2023 14:26:48 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

thanks, you're not too shabby yourself.   

you could absolutely test this in a massive pressure vessel. there's a fantastic place here on Cape Cod that is capable of doing just that - Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. this failure was entirely preventable with good engineering practices, and was a result of a whole hell of a lot of hubris. Stockton Rush was quoted* last winter - "You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed, don't get in your car, don't do anything. At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk-reward question." 

how do you feel comfortable using a material that's never been used before on a submersible, to go to that severe of a depth, without major testing? validation qual requires three runs that produce the same results. there's no indication that they even did that. this article contains quotes of Rush complaining about the strict safety oversight stifling innovation. I feel badly for the other four men that put their lives in the hands of this egotist, but they should have done a little more research into the lack of safety testing and the like before literally signing away their lives. 


*quote source, one of many to carry this quote. 

safety is never a "pure waste".  lives are at stake.  unless safety doesn't allow use.  and that might have been the case here.  in other words, if your device CANNOT be operated safely (like a chainsaw), you simply warn people that they could get killed using it, and put as much distance between yourself and them.  but what i see here is the opposite.  which tells me that he was either willfully or blissfully unaware of the risks.  that is not a good place to be when you are putting your OWN life at stake, let alone that of others.

[swamp]

Jun 24, 2023 20:05:42 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jun 24, 2023 19:56:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

you're probably right.  the details are probably too grim to imagine.
interesting about the two hull pieces.  i hadn't heard that before now.
i have not been following the aftermath very carefully.  once i heard
the determination that they were dead, i was kinda done with this story.
but it is interesting science, if you can back away from the gore.

you and I have very different forensic interests. for all your fact-driven posts, I sometimes forget you're not also an engineer. I actually didn't hear about this til probably Tuesday, and I'll admit to a whole lot of schadenfreude about it all. and now that we know what happened, I want to know every detail I can learn about how and why it all broke down, including the ignoring of safety approvals. so I've been reading up and listening to all of the experts in submarining, mechanical experts on gaskets/seals and the like, and I'm just fascinated now. 

There is a YouTube clip by 2 Bit DiVinci you should check out. He’s an engineer and I thought he did a great job discussing the safety failures 

[chiver78]

thanks! I'm going to look that up. 

[swamp]

Jun 25, 2023 13:40:33 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The mental gymnastics these people go through to redefine the world. They didn’t hire 50 year old white guys because young guys are cheaper and will not make as much noise when the CEO does something stupid.

And to say that Democrats are the ones that support deregulation??!! WTF



Conservatives Are Now Blaming The Titanic Sub Tragedy On 'Wokeness'


www.huffpost.com/entry/lost-titanic-sub-wokeness_n_64949559e4b0c0ed59b12b5c

Apparently they forgot about the white dude that got fired for questioning the safety of the sub 

[djAdvocate]

Jun 25, 2023 14:47:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jun 24, 2023 20:05:42 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

you and I have very different forensic interests. for all your fact-driven posts, I sometimes forget you're not also an engineer. I actually didn't hear about this til probably Tuesday, and I'll admit to a whole lot of schadenfreude about it all. and now that we know what happened, I want to know every detail I can learn about how and why it all broke down, including the ignoring of safety approvals. so I've been reading up and listening to all of the experts in submarining, mechanical experts on gaskets/seals and the like, and I'm just fascinated now. 

There is a YouTube clip by 2 Bit DiVinci you should check out. He’s an engineer and I thought he did a great job discussing the safety failures 

ok.  he seems to be saying it might have been an IMPACT failure.  wow.  that is a theory i had not heard before.  

do we have descent information from the Titan?  i would love to see a graph of depth over time.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 25, 2023 14:52:03 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jun 25, 2023 13:40:33 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The mental gymnastics these people go through to redefine the world. They didn’t hire 50 year old white guys because young guys are cheaper and will not make as much noise when the CEO does something stupid.

And to say that Democrats are the ones that support deregulation??!! WTF



Conservatives Are Now Blaming The Titanic Sub Tragedy On 'Wokeness'


www.huffpost.com/entry/lost-titanic-sub-wokeness_n_64949559e4b0c0ed59b12b5c

Apparently they forgot about the white dude that got fired for questioning the safety of the sub 

this is the opposite of a "woke" problem, imo.  again, woke = aware.  there appears to be a concerted effort to NOT be aware on the part of the CEO.  he seems like the kind of guy who might have voted for Trump.

edit: i just looked it up.  i guessed right.  Stockton Rush has been a consistent GOP doner since Trump showed up.

so, yeah- i stand by what i said.  this dude was NOT woke.  he was, if anything, anti-woke.

[toomuchreality]

I didn't verify this info:

Regarding keeping the costs down, I read that the hull was made from material that had been part of an airplane that was retired due to age. He snagged it up, saying something to the effect of "It will last forever."

The unfortunate people who trusted this man and his sales pitch.

[Opti]

Jun 25, 2023 11:41:44 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Jun 25, 2023 10:41:14 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

He operated a small private company with entrepreneurial freedom. He would not be able to apply the same attitude towards dams nor subway systems because those are public works projects with governmental oversight. Go Capitalism!

well, at least as long as the Dems retain some control. GOP loves to talk about dismantling all the pesky regulatory agencies in government, like the EPA and OSHA. I remember Paul used to say we should remove all the regulatory restrictions, because if you got hurt by a dam or a subway system you could sue someone to cover damages, and that would be enough to make the companies act safely. 

Clearly, with this submersible company, that wasn’t enough of a deterrent. Buyer beware, I guess. 

Its never been enough of a deterrent. If Paul really read and understood American history, he would know that. If you and a bunch of people are dead, you aren't suing anyone. You are dead. Maybe your family sues maybe your family is part of a class action suit and gets a fraction of what they should have gotten because the lawyers got most of the money for starting the suit.

Plus, if he thought on it further, what laws exactly then can the injured use to sue with?

[Spellbound454]

Hope they do find bodies for the relatives to bury
and I hate to say it, but there are marine creatures on the sea bed, which keep it clean.

They will need to be pretty quick with the recovery.

[billisonboard]

Burial at sea is a time honored tradition which might need to be embraced here.