Am I the only one?

[grumpyhermit]

From the accounts I read, this was never going to be a rescue mission anyway, even if they had found them intact. 

I don't care that rich idiots want to be be rich idiots, but I could do without the hours of breathless news coverage about it. 

Though an interview James Cameron did, did lead me to watch the documentary Deep SeaChallege about the sub he built to go into the Marina Trench and that was quite interesting. Amazing what you can accomplish with proper planning, crewing, and safety protocols. 

[billisonboard]

Jun 23, 2023 8:13:45 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

From the accounts I read, this was never going to be a rescue mission anyway, even if they had found them intact. 

I don't care that rich idiots want to be be rich idiots, but I could do without the hours of breathless news coverage about it. 

Though an interview James Cameron did, did lead me to watch the documentary Deep SeaChallege about the sub he built to go into the Marina Trench and that was quite interesting. Amazing what you can accomplish with proper planning, crewing, and safety protocols. 

I also could, and actually did, do without hours of coverage. A few minutes on nightly news, a couple of articles, this thread and I felt adequately informed.

[chiver78]

Jun 23, 2023 8:13:45 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

From the accounts I read, this was never going to be a rescue mission anyway, even if they had found them intact. 

I don't care that rich idiots want to be be rich idiots, but I could do without the hours of breathless news coverage about it. 

Though an interview James Cameron did, did lead me to watch the documentary Deep SeaChallege about the sub he built to go into the Marina Trench and that was quite interesting. Amazing what you can accomplish with proper planning, crewing, and safety protocols. 

I watched Ghosts of the Abyss last night, which involved taking a pair of subs down to Titanic. it was narrated by Bill Paxton, who was on one of the subs. He also played the explorer in the movie. 

[billisonboard]

Jun 23, 2023 8:02:52 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

This upset me all day yesterday when they kept saying there was x amount of oxygen left..... and I kept thinking how awful it would be to suffocate to death on the sea bed.

Seems they died soon after contact was lost and their bodies may never be found.

It seems this submersible had undergone absolutely no safety checks, and it was taking fee paying passengers.

The 19 year old didn't even want to go.

What the heck! This sort of thing has got to stop immediately.

Choice. Who are we to make it for others? Even the 19 year old made his choice to go along. Consequences of choice can be wonderful or sometimes they can suck. This time they sucked big time. It happens.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I keep seeing people on Facebook saying "Well people go into space!  People have died for space exploration!"  

Yeah but here is the thing, when bad shit happened NASA has busted it's ass to ensure as much as any human can that those things will not happen again.  People go through training to go up into space even the celebrities.   They will scrub a launch if something looks funny no matter how small.   They test and they test and they test everything that goes up before it is sent into outer space.  It doesn't pass it doesn't go.

They do everything they possibly can to mitigate risk and ensure people come back alive.  Is it perfect?  No, no human made system ever is but NASA tries to get as close to perfect as possible.

This was a bunch of rich people on a tourist adventure using a freaking Playstation (or was it Xbox) controller to navigate.  It's someone who ignored multiple safety warnings and even fired employees for speaking out about them.  On top of that the crew was inexperienced.

THAT is a key difference.

What I do not get is for that much money they could have probably chartered a research boat and had them send down a robot while they chilled on the dock with caviar and champagne to watch the feed.   To do it this way just gives you the ability to brag to your other rich friends that you are SO rich that you could personally tour the Titanic underwater.

Their choice I guess but not now I'd want to go out.  Not worth it.

[thyme4change]

Jun 23, 2023 9:38:25 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I keep seeing people on Facebook saying "Well people go into space!  People have died for space exploration!"  

Yeah but here is the thing, when bad shit happened NASA has busted it's ass to ensure as much as any human can that those things will not happen again.  People go through training to go up into space even the celebrities.   They will scrub a launch if something looks funny no matter how small.   They test and they test and they test everything that goes up before it is sent into outer space.  It doesn't pass it doesn't go.

They do everything they possibly can to mitigate risk and ensure people come back alive.  Is it perfect?  No, no human made system ever is but NASA tries to get as close to perfect as possible.

This was a bunch of rich people on a tourist adventure using a freaking Playstation (or was it Xbox) controller to navigate.  It's someone who ignored multiple safety warnings and even fired employees for speaking out about them.  On top of that the crew was inexperienced.

THAT is a key difference.

The O rings of the challenger were a known problem - but NASA crossed their collective fingers and sent up a school teacher anyway.

And, billionaires are now getting on non-NASA space ships.

I agree that this particular sea vessel seemed particularly underwhelming, but experimental things are all risky. These rich dudes probably didn’t think anything bad would possibly happen to them - after all, they are wealthy!!

[grumpyhermit]

Jun 23, 2023 9:03:34 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jun 23, 2023 8:13:45 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

From the accounts I read, this was never going to be a rescue mission anyway, even if they had found them intact. 

I don't care that rich idiots want to be be rich idiots, but I could do without the hours of breathless news coverage about it. 

Though an interview James Cameron did, did lead me to watch the documentary Deep SeaChallege about the sub he built to go into the Marina Trench and that was quite interesting. Amazing what you can accomplish with proper planning, crewing, and safety protocols. 

I watched Ghosts of the Abyss last night, which involved taking a pair of subs down to Titanic. it was narrated by Bill Paxton, who was on one of the subs. He also played the explorer in the movie. 

That's on my list for tonight because it was referenced in the other documentary I watched. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jun 23, 2023 10:03:13 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 23, 2023 9:38:25 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I keep seeing people on Facebook saying "Well people go into space!  People have died for space exploration!"  

Yeah but here is the thing, when bad shit happened NASA has busted it's ass to ensure as much as any human can that those things will not happen again.  People go through training to go up into space even the celebrities.   They will scrub a launch if something looks funny no matter how small.   They test and they test and they test everything that goes up before it is sent into outer space.  It doesn't pass it doesn't go.

They do everything they possibly can to mitigate risk and ensure people come back alive.  Is it perfect?  No, no human made system ever is but NASA tries to get as close to perfect as possible.

This was a bunch of rich people on a tourist adventure using a freaking Playstation (or was it Xbox) controller to navigate.  It's someone who ignored multiple safety warnings and even fired employees for speaking out about them.  On top of that the crew was inexperienced.

THAT is a key difference.

The O rings of the challenger were a known problem - but NASA crossed their collective fingers and sent up a school teacher anyway.

And, billionaires are now getting on non-NASA space ships.

I agree that this particular sea vessel seemed particularly underwhelming, but experimental things are all risky. These rich dudes probably didn’t think anything bad would possibly happen to them - after all, they are wealthy!!

All true.

IDK though I don't know a lot about submarines but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn and a sub being piloted by a video game controller would be a huge red flag for me.

Kinda like I am not getting a tattoo from the guy doing it in his apartment using a fish hook as a needle.  I don't need to be a master artist to think . .. hmmm.

But then again people do that and wonder why they ended up with Hepatitis.   Stupidity and lack of common sense know no socioeconomic bounds. 

[skeeter]

Has anyone heard or read why a search was not started Sunday afternoon/night in the same area where the Titan descended instead of looking everywhere else for 4 days??

Seems to me they would have found the debris site then thereby saving family members the anguish of not knowing if their loved ones were still alive (and suffering) or dead.  They may have also found human remains so families could have had a "proper burial" instead of having the remains scattered, probably for miles and miles, by the underwater currents.

JMHO

[Artemis Windsong]

 .

I am grateful their minds didn't have enough time to determine what happened.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 23, 2023 10:03:13 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 23, 2023 9:38:25 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I keep seeing people on Facebook saying "Well people go into space!  People have died for space exploration!"  

Yeah but here is the thing, when bad shit happened NASA has busted it's ass to ensure as much as any human can that those things will not happen again.  People go through training to go up into space even the celebrities.   They will scrub a launch if something looks funny no matter how small.   They test and they test and they test everything that goes up before it is sent into outer space.  It doesn't pass it doesn't go.

They do everything they possibly can to mitigate risk and ensure people come back alive.  Is it perfect?  No, no human made system ever is but NASA tries to get as close to perfect as possible.

This was a bunch of rich people on a tourist adventure using a freaking Playstation (or was it Xbox) controller to navigate.  It's someone who ignored multiple safety warnings and even fired employees for speaking out about them.  On top of that the crew was inexperienced.

THAT is a key difference.

The O rings of the challenger were a known problem - but NASA crossed their collective fingers and sent up a school teacher anyway.

And, billionaires are now getting on non-NASA space ships.

I agree that this particular sea vessel seemed particularly underwhelming, but experimental things are all risky. These rich dudes probably didn’t think anything bad would possibly happen to them - after all, they are wealthy!!

either that, or they are so overstimulated that they have to try stupid shit just to feel alive.

[Tiny]

Jun 23, 2023 15:35:04 GMT -5 skeeter said:

Has anyone heard or read why a search was not started Sunday afternoon/night in the same area where the Titan descended instead of looking everywhere else for 4 days??

Seems to me they would have found the debris site then thereby saving family members the anguish of not knowing if their loved ones were still alive (and suffering) or dead.  They may have also found human remains so families could have had a "proper burial" instead of having the remains scattered, probably for miles and miles, by the underwater currents.

JMHO

First, it's important to know that no one capable of doing any sort of rescue activity was less than a day away.
second, it's important to know that once the emergency was called in - the rescue people had to figure out what they needed to do... I'm betting my right front tooth that NO ONE had an emergency plan (a set of steps, what to do, a place where all the information on the submersible and how to lift it off the bottom of the ocean, etc) was in place. oh, and a single sheet of paper with some high level vague bullet points - like "notify authorities" isn't a plan. I don't think there was any sort of pre-prepared plan for what to do if the submersible got stuck on the bottom of the ocean.

That said, what I've read is that the PolarPrince didn't contact anyone until 6:30pm - about 30minutes after the submersible was suppose to return to the surface. (at face value - that tells me (so this MY OPINION it was pretty common to loose contact with the submersible and the top side crew wasn't overly concerned. Maybe it had happened often in the past - so they just sat and waited. OR this never happened before and the crew panicked eventually called their employer (oceangate) and asked what they should do.)

The call for "help" didn't go out until Sunday evening. And then the search from the air happened (because maybe the submersible came back up - but was terribly off course). That seems like a good place to start if all you have available is air search capabilities.     While that was happening that gave time (several days) for the other types of technology that could actually do something to arrive.

I think once there was enough sonar evidence that the submersible had imploded soon after it's last contact with the mothership - it was easier to know where to look for debris.  They knew more or less where the submersible was in it's descent and I'm sure they had water current info and could make a good guesstimate of where it might be. 


(think about it - what if the "rear thrusters" got stuck in the on position - and they also lost some ability to steer - the submersible could have traveled away from the wreck for some amount of time before the thrusters ran out of "thrust". I bet you can come up with some other ways the submersible MIGHT have wound up someplace it wasn't suppose to be. It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack (that you could only search by being blindfolded and crawling thru the hay feeling around to find the needle - you could NOT torch the haystack OR use a magnet) )


FYI:  there were no human remains to be found.  The pressure immediately turned them all into, I don't know, maybe mist??     Do you know any fire/police people?  They might have some stories about what's left when someone jumps off (or accidentally falls from) a high rise building and hits the concrete street.    The pressure at 12000 feet below sea level is even beyond that...    

[saveinla]

I asked my DH who used to sail in huge oil tankers and he said that until you are in the ocean you don't have an idea of how vast the area is and how hard it is to pinpoint anything.
There is much more technology now, but that does not mean its as easy as pointing to a certain point and saying - here is where we go. The tides are very good in carrying things quickly and in different directions than what you would expect .

[billisonboard]

Jun 24, 2023 13:57:27 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Jun 23, 2023 15:35:04 GMT -5 skeeter said:

Has anyone heard or read why a search was not started Sunday afternoon/night in the same area where the Titan descended instead of looking everywhere else for 4 days??

Seems to me they would have found the debris site then thereby saving family members the anguish of not knowing if their loved ones were still alive (and suffering) or dead.  They may have also found human remains so families could have had a "proper burial" instead of having the remains scattered, probably for miles and miles, by the underwater currents.

JMHO

First, it's important to know that no one capable of doing any sort of rescue activity was less than a day away.
second, it's important to know that once the emergency was called in - the rescue people had to figure out what they needed to do... I'm betting my right front tooth that NO ONE had an emergency plan (a set of steps, what to do, a place where all the information on the submersible and how to lift it off the bottom of the ocean, etc) was in place. oh, and a single sheet of paper with some high level vague bullet points - like "notify authorities" isn't a plan. I don't think there was any sort of pre-prepared plan for what to do if the submersible got stuck on the bottom of the ocean.

That said, what I've read is that the PolarPrince didn't contact anyone until 6:30pm - about 30minutes after the submersible was suppose to return to the surface. (at face value - that tells me (so this MY OPINION it was pretty common to loose contact with the submersible and the top side crew wasn't overly concerned. Maybe it had happened often in the past - so they just sat and waited. OR this never happened before and the crew panicked eventually called their employer (oceangate) and asked what they should do.)

The call for "help" didn't go out until Sunday evening. And then the search from the air happened (because maybe the submersible came back up - but was terribly off course). While that was happening that gave time (several days) for the other types of technology that could actually do something to arrive.

I think once there was enough sonar evidence that the submersible had imploded soon after it's last contact with the mothership - it was easier to know where to look for debris.


(think about it - what if the "rear thrusters" got stuck in the on position - and they also lost some ability to steer - the submersible could have traveled away from the wreck for some amount of time before the thrusters ran out of "thrust". I bet you can come up with some other ways the submersible MIGHT have wound up someplace it wasn't suppose to be. It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack (that you could only search by being blindfolded and crawling thru the hay feeling around to find the needle - you could NOT torch the haystack OR use a magnet) )


FYI:  there were no human remains to be found.  The pressure immediately turned them all into, I don't know, maybe mist??     Do you know any fire/police people?  They might have some stories about what's left when someone jumps off (or accidentally falls from) a high rise building and hits the concrete street.    The pressure at 12000 feet below sea level is even beyond that...    

all of that and having to first figure out who would be in charge of the effort (individual or committee), who were all the players, and what resources were available and when.

[happyhoix]

Jun 24, 2023 13:57:27 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Jun 23, 2023 15:35:04 GMT -5 skeeter said:

Has anyone heard or read why a search was not started Sunday afternoon/night in the same area where the Titan descended instead of looking everywhere else for 4 days??

Seems to me they would have found the debris site then thereby saving family members the anguish of not knowing if their loved ones were still alive (and suffering) or dead.  They may have also found human remains so families could have had a "proper burial" instead of having the remains scattered, probably for miles and miles, by the underwater currents.

JMHO

First, it's important to know that no one capable of doing any sort of rescue activity was less than a day away.
second, it's important to know that once the emergency was called in - the rescue people had to figure out what they needed to do... I'm betting my right front tooth that NO ONE had an emergency plan (a set of steps, what to do, a place where all the information on the submersible and how to lift it off the bottom of the ocean, etc) was in place. oh, and a single sheet of paper with some high level vague bullet points - like "notify authorities" isn't a plan. I don't think there was any sort of pre-prepared plan for what to do if the submersible got stuck on the bottom of the ocean.

That said, what I've read is that the PolarPrince didn't contact anyone until 6:30pm - about 30minutes after the submersible was suppose to return to the surface. (at face value - that tells me (so this MY OPINION it was pretty common to loose contact with the submersible and the top side crew wasn't overly concerned. Maybe it had happened often in the past - so they just sat and waited. OR this never happened before and the crew panicked eventually called their employer (oceangate) and asked what they should do.)

The call for "help" didn't go out until Sunday evening. And then the search from the air happened (because maybe the submersible came back up - but was terribly off course). That seems like a good place to start if all you have available is air search capabilities.     While that was happening that gave time (several days) for the other types of technology that could actually do something to arrive.

I think once there was enough sonar evidence that the submersible had imploded soon after it's last contact with the mothership - it was easier to know where to look for debris.  They knew more or less where the submersible was in it's descent and I'm sure they had water current info and could make a good guesstimate of where it might be. 


(think about it - what if the "rear thrusters" got stuck in the on position - and they also lost some ability to steer - the submersible could have traveled away from the wreck for some amount of time before the thrusters ran out of "thrust". I bet you can come up with some other ways the submersible MIGHT have wound up someplace it wasn't suppose to be. It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack (that you could only search by being blindfolded and crawling thru the hay feeling around to find the needle - you could NOT torch the haystack OR use a magnet) )


FYI:  there were no human remains to be found.  The pressure immediately turned them all into, I don't know, maybe mist??     Do you know any fire/police people?  They might have some stories about what's left when someone jumps off (or accidentally falls from) a high rise building and hits the concrete street.    The pressure at 12000 feet below sea level is even beyond that...    

On another board someone described what happened to them as passing from a biological state to a physical state instantaneously.  So there will be no remains to recover. 

It is a blessing, however, that what happened to them happened so quickly. I have claustrophobia and the though of them squeezed into that tiny vehicle for days, knowing there was a strong possibility they would suffocate before they could be rescued - and the guilt the dad would have had for bringing his son with him….. nearly gave me a panic attack. So tragic. 

[djAdvocate]

Jun 24, 2023 14:14:55 GMT -5 saveinla said:

I asked my DH who used to sail in huge oil tankers and he said that until you are in the ocean you don't have an idea of how vast the area is and how hard it is to pinpoint anything.
There is much more technology now, but that does not mean its as easy as pointing to a certain point and saying - here is where we go. The tides are very good in carrying things quickly and in different directions than what you would expect .

consider the disappearance of MH370.  this is an object that is probably 100 or 1000 times larger than this dinky sub, and it went down in similarly deep water.  of course, there are major differences- but the search went on for EIGHTEEN MONTHS and without any idea of even the square 100 miles it went down in.

the ocean is vast and mysterious.

[happyhoix]

There isn’t really any reason for humans to go either down into the depths of the ocean OR out into space. We have the technology to send robots capable of operating cameras and sampling arms to study both. If people have a strong urge to be close up to the titanic, virtual reality can now create detailed renderings of the wreck - heck, they can probably have the experience underwater so you can even get wet doing it.

Way cheaper to deploy drones - they aren’t as fragile as people, and don’t require things like breathing air, food or toilets. You don’t have to worry about how to get them back home. If you lose them, you’re only out money.

And literally, we know more about space than we do about the deep parts of the ocean. There are animals that live along the edge of thermal vents that live off bacteria that lives in their guts and metabolize hydrogen sulfide - they might as well be intergalactic aliens. If we’re going to go poking around down there it should be drones.

[laterbloomer]

Jun 23, 2023 9:06:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jun 23, 2023 8:02:52 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

This upset me all day yesterday when they kept saying there was x amount of oxygen left..... and I kept thinking how awful it would be to suffocate to death on the sea bed.

Seems they died soon after contact was lost and their bodies may never be found.

It seems this submersible had undergone absolutely no safety checks, and it was taking fee paying passengers.

The 19 year old didn't even want to go.

What the heck! This sort of thing has got to stop immediately.

Choice. Who are we to make it for others? Even the 19 year old made his choice to go along. Consequences of choice can be wonderful or sometimes they can suck. This time they sucked big time. It happens.

I really resent the amount of taxpayer money that went towards the search or rescue mission for the thrill seekers that made this really bad choice.

[billisonboard]

Jun 24, 2023 15:25:39 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There isn’t really any reason for humans to go either down into the depths of the ocean OR out into space. We have the technology to send robots capable of operating cameras and sampling arms to study both. If people have a strong urge to be close up to the titanic, virtual reality can now create detailed renderings of the wreck - heck, they can probably have the experience underwater so you can even get wet doing it.

Way cheaper to deploy drones - they aren’t as fragile as people, and don’t require things like breathing air, food or toilets. You don’t have to worry about how to get them back home. If you lose them, you’re only out money.

And literally, we know more about space than we do about the deep parts of the ocean. There are animals that live along the edge of thermal vents that live off bacteria that lives in their guts and metabolize hydrogen sulfide - they might as well be intergalactic aliens. If we’re going to go poking around down there it should be drones.

Artifical insemination works well also.

[billisonboard]

Jun 24, 2023 15:55:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jun 23, 2023 9:06:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Choice. Who are we to make it for others? Even the 19 year old made his choice to go along. Consequences of choice can be wonderful or sometimes they can suck. This time they sucked big time. It happens.

I really resent the amount of taxpayer money that went towards the search or rescue mission for the thrill seekers that made this really bad choice.

How much are we talking? Calculating the amount can be a little tricky. You have the crews of Coast Guard ships who would be paid in port or on a search. You have operating costs that would incur on training missions or on an actual search. You potentially have lessons learned which could save money in future efforts. So I wonder how expensive is it really?

[toomuchreality]

One of the articles I read, before they found out what happened, quoted a guy that went down on a previous mission in the same sub. He said they lost coms during their excursion too. For 5 1/2 hours! Luckily, that's all they lost, on that trip.

[Tiny]

Jun 24, 2023 15:55:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jun 23, 2023 9:06:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Choice. Who are we to make it for others? Even the 19 year old made his choice to go along. Consequences of choice can be wonderful or sometimes they can suck. This time they sucked big time. It happens.

I really resent the amount of taxpayer money that went towards the search or rescue mission for the thrill seekers that made this really bad choice.

I think the only consolation is that all the people and technology involved got in some "real world" training - if they didn't already have some. 

Perhaps some better search practices or people with more experience will come out of it that can be applied to other kinds of rescues. 

[thyme4change]

Jun 23, 2023 15:35:04 GMT -5 skeeter said:

Has anyone heard or read why a search was not started Sunday afternoon/night in the same area where the Titan descended instead of looking everywhere else for 4 days??

Seems to me they would have found the debris site then thereby saving family members the anguish of not knowing if their loved ones were still alive (and suffering) or dead.  They may have also found human remains so families could have had a "proper burial" instead of having the remains scattered, probably for miles and miles, by the underwater currents.

JMHO

I heard someone (who probably isn’t a great source) say that the implosion would be so fast and furious their bodies would basically liquify and even if someone was very nearby they wouldn’t have found human remains. I don’t know if that is true - but it sure sounds gross.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 24, 2023 17:46:34 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 23, 2023 15:35:04 GMT -5 skeeter said:

Has anyone heard or read why a search was not started Sunday afternoon/night in the same area where the Titan descended instead of looking everywhere else for 4 days??

Seems to me they would have found the debris site then thereby saving family members the anguish of not knowing if their loved ones were still alive (and suffering) or dead.  They may have also found human remains so families could have had a "proper burial" instead of having the remains scattered, probably for miles and miles, by the underwater currents.

JMHO

I heard someone (who probably isn’t a great source) say that the implosion would be so fast and furious their bodies would basically liquify and even if someone was very nearby they wouldn’t have found human remains. I don’t know if that is true - but it sure sounds gross.

possibly.  it could also be like crushing a can.  once it reaches it's limit, whatever is in there stays in there.  so, there might be remains, but i would agree that they would not be recognizable as human.

[chiver78]

gemstones are created under pressure. I can share some links to the science of it, but I'm not sure this forum wants that. but, if the pressure vectors of an implosion of something like that hull are anything like the pressure vectors of gemstone formation, there isn't anything left to find. 

[djAdvocate]

Jun 24, 2023 18:04:32 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

gemstones are created under pressure. I can share some links to the science of it, but I'm not sure this forum wants that. but, if the pressure vectors of an implosion of something like that hull are anything like the pressure vectors of gemstone formation, there isn't anything left to find. 

the pressure was 400ATM, or about 5600 PSI at the Titanic.
I hear varying accounts of where they were.  but i would contend
that they were at around 4000 PSI based on reports.

it takes roughly 200x that much pressure to make a diamond.

[chiver78]

Jun 24, 2023 19:41:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 24, 2023 18:04:32 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

gemstones are created under pressure. I can share some links to the science of it, but I'm not sure this forum wants that. but, if the pressure vectors of an implosion of something like that hull are anything like the pressure vectors of gemstone formation, there isn't anything left to find. 

the pressure was 400ATM, or about 5600 PSI at the Titanic.
I hear varying accounts of where they were.  but i would contend
that they were at around 4000 PSI based on reports.

it takes roughly 200x that much pressure to make a diamond.

thanks, so then it's pretty much definite that there's nothing left to find. 

FWIW, my comment came from general engineering studies. my focus was chemical engineering, so more on flows rather than stresses and pressures.  [img]https://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/ymamsmiles/tongue2.png[/img]

[djAdvocate]

Jun 24, 2023 19:46:02 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jun 24, 2023 19:41:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the pressure was 400ATM, or about 5600 PSI at the Titanic.
I hear varying accounts of where they were.  but i would contend
that they were at around 4000 PSI based on reports.

it takes roughly 200x that much pressure to make a diamond.

thanks, so then it's pretty much definite that there's nothing left to find. 

FWIW, my comment came from general engineering studies. my focus was chemical engineering, so more on flows rather than stresses and pressures. 

i contend that it is POSSIBLE that this vessel collapsed, and left them all inside like a shrink wrapper.  i am not at all sure that there would be "nothing left".  water, as you know, is generally not considered compressible, and people are about 98% water or something, right?

edit: we are 66% water.  i am not sure how much of the rest of us are compressible, however.

[chiver78]

Jun 24, 2023 19:50:24 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 24, 2023 19:46:02 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

thanks, so then it's pretty much definite that there's nothing left to find. 

FWIW, my comment came from general engineering studies. my focus was chemical engineering, so more on flows rather than stresses and pressures. 

i contend that it is POSSIBLE that this vessel collapsed, and left them all inside like a shrink wrapper.  i am not at all sure that there would be "nothing left".  water, as you know, is generally not considered compressible, and people are about 98% water or something, right?

except there isn't an "inside" as there were two separate debris fields, each of which had pieces of the hull. this wasn't a ball of foil you crumple after baking off party snacks. implosion demolished the structural integrity of the hull. 

I'm curious to see what comes of any further investigation. I doubt any of it will become public, though. 

[djAdvocate]

Jun 24, 2023 19:54:03 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jun 24, 2023 19:50:24 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i contend that it is POSSIBLE that this vessel collapsed, and left them all inside like a shrink wrapper.  i am not at all sure that there would be "nothing left".  water, as you know, is generally not considered compressible, and people are about 98% water or something, right?

except there isn't an "inside" as there were two separate debris fields, each of which had pieces of the hull. this wasn't a ball of foil you crumple after baking off party snacks. implosion demolished the structural integrity of the hull. 

I'm curious to see what comes of any further investigation. I doubt any of it will become public, though. 

you're probably right.  the details are probably too grim to imagine.
interesting about the two hull pieces.  i hadn't heard that before now.
i have not been following the aftermath very carefully.  once i heard
the determination that they were dead, i was kinda done with this story.
but it is interesting science, if you can back away from the gore.