Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 9, 2023 21:27:44 GMT -5
i can't figure out what the 30000 emails comment on page 21 is about. anyone care to step in and help? Trump deleted Hillary's 30,000 emails?   |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 9, 2023 21:34:22 GMT -5
i saw one of Trump's FORMER attorneys interviewed about the documents, and he said something interesting that shoots a hole in PART of what i have been saying on this thread. if Trump made COPIES of the NON-CLASSIFIED materials, then he is allowed to have those. that makes sense. when it came to the classified material, he was way cagier. he said "i would have to see it". i took it from that, and other comments he made that the classified material would have to be declassified for Trump to have EVEN COPIES in his possession. the indictment seems to indicate the same thing. that is why there was SUCH an interest in the classified material. although the unclassified material is also POTENTIALLY a problem, the classified material is CLEARLY a problem. did i get any of that wrong?Don't think so. The records themselves still belong to the government and must be returned. Copies of non-classified material should be okay, but copies are not even supposed to be made of classified documents outside of official channels, as far as I can recall. that is my understanding, too. this guy AT FIRST made it seem like the copies of classified material was OK. but the interviewer didn't let him off the hook. i think that what he was hoping was that there would be some marking on the document indicating that it was declassified and copied. but as Jack Smith pointed out, NONE of the documents in question were declassified. now, i get that Trump thinks that he has magical powers, and can just declassify stuff. but that is not true. and his entire case hinges on it. Jack Smith addressed that in the indictment. it is about half way through, if memory serves. he basically says that declassification has to be cleared with the classifying entity, which is what my understanding was, as well. so, does ANYONE at this point think that Trump can just randomly declassify shit? because that is his only hope, here, imo. Trump keeps mentioning the PRA. but the PRA is actually the enforcement arm that requires him to turn over everything that is not private to the government. it is the PRA that has gotten him into trouble. it is not a get out of jail free card. i don't understand what reading of the PRA that allows him to keep PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS. there is nothing in there about that. it doesn't even mention classified material. that is a separate standard, and as we have already discussed above, a separate violation. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 9, 2023 21:34:54 GMT -5
Trump deleted Hillary's 30,000 emails? i actually saw that as one possible thing he MIGHT be saying. |
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jun 9, 2023 21:36:01 GMT -5
Let's count Trump's current criminal charges against him. Mar-a-lago documents: 37 active felony counts. Stormy Daniels payoff: 34 active felony counts. The guy is sure going to be busy in state and federal courts. he will end up with over 100. guaranteed. so what is it i hear about these criminal miscreants threatening Civil War 2? guess JAN6 was not enough for them? time to round their asses up, as well. Starting with Rep Andy Biggs & Rep Clay Higgins. Rep Andy Biggs: We have now reached a war phase. Eye for an eye. Rep Clay Higgins: President Trump said he has "been summoned to appear at the Federal Courthouse in Miami on Tuesday, at 3 PM." This is a perimeter probe from the oppressors. Hold. rPOTUS has this. Buckle up. 1/50K know your bridges. Rock steady calm. That is all. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 9, 2023 21:41:50 GMT -5
what the fuck is wrong with these people?
that is clear incitement.
that HAS to be criminal.
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Post by tallguy on Jun 9, 2023 21:58:20 GMT -5
what the fuck is wrong with these people? that is clear incitement. that HAS to be criminal. The most basic GOP beliefs: IOKIYAR IACIYAD |
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 9, 2023 22:19:35 GMT -5
what the fuck is wrong with these people? that is clear incitement. that HAS to be criminal. The most basic GOP beliefs: IOKIYAR IACIYAD except that Democrats have not done this since the 60's. and even then, it was Democrats that were so far out of the mainstream.... for an ELECTED OFFICIAL to say this shit? it HAS to be criminal. |
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Post by tallguy on Jun 9, 2023 22:43:04 GMT -5
The most basic GOP beliefs: IOKIYAR IACIYAD except that Democrats have not done this since the 60's. and even then, it was Democrats that were so far out of the mainstream.... for an ELECTED OFFICIAL to say this shit? it HAS to be criminal. Can't be. It's OK If You Are Republican. It's A Crime If You Are Democrat. These are Republicans. Hence, not criminal. Right? In fact, it's a moral imperative for them to make this country what it is REALLY supposed to be.  |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 9, 2023 22:45:46 GMT -5
right, but my point was, and i am sure you didn't miss it, Democrats don't do this.
so, they are basically saying it is not a crime. that is fine. for them to SAY that.
i suspect that we are about to see how wrong that position is.
it will be an interesting spectactle.
the hue and cry is loud right now.
but i don't think it will stay that way.
the only way to stop fascists is to subject them to the judiciary.
history has shown us that.
this is ugly to watch.
but it is how fascism dies.
or, alternatively, our republic.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 9, 2023 22:47:47 GMT -5
he will end up with over 100. guaranteed. so what is it i hear about these criminal miscreants threatening Civil War 2? guess JAN6 was not enough for them? time to round their asses up, as well. Starting with Rep Andy Biggs & Rep Clay Higgins. Rep Andy Biggs: We have now reached a war phase. Eye for an eye. Rep Clay Higgins: President Trump said he has "been summoned to appear at the Federal Courthouse in Miami on Tuesday, at 3 PM." This is a perimeter probe from the oppressors. Hold. rPOTUS has this. Buckle up. 1/50K know your bridges. Rock steady calm. That is all. They use words to intimidate and scare. Most of the time they have no idea what they are really doing and saying. Rep Clay Higgins probably got elected as a Trump fan boy. Of course he will make noise and see if Trump's coattails will support him. Not surprising others haven't realized the party is over on that. Higgins won the runoff election on December 10, 2016, defeating fellow Republican Scott Angelle.From Wikiperdia |
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 9, 2023 23:03:46 GMT -5
right, but my point was, and i am sure you didn't miss it, Democrats don't do this. so, they are basically saying it is not a crime. that is fine. for them to SAY that. i suspect that we are about to see how wrong that position is. it will be an interesting spectactle. the hue and cry is loud right now. but i don't think it will stay that way. the only way to stop fascists is to subject them to the judiciary. history has shown us that. this is ugly to watch. but it is how fascism dies. or, alternatively, our republic. Not quite. They are saying it WOULD be a crime if Democrats had done it. Everything else is. Even BEING a Democrat is a crime, so anything they do HAS TO BE. NOTHING that Republicans do is a crime. They are the anointed ones. Just listen to 'em. They'll tell ya. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 9, 2023 23:12:17 GMT -5
read the indictment. a child could read it.
it is incredibly well done.
it lays it out step by step.
this is all the bones of the case.
and it is really strong.
i love his Trump quotes.
brilliant work. seriously.
kudos to the man with the
simplest name imaginable.
Mr. Smith goes to Washington.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jun 9, 2023 23:12:57 GMT -5
right, but my point was, and i am sure you didn't miss it, Democrats don't do this. so, they are basically saying it is not a crime. that is fine. for them to SAY that. i suspect that we are about to see how wrong that position is. it will be an interesting spectactle. the hue and cry is loud right now. but i don't think it will stay that way. the only way to stop fascists is to subject them to the judiciary.history has shown us that. this is ugly to watch. but it is how fascism dies. or, alternatively, our republic. There's also this: House Ethics Committee quietly restarts Gaetz probe |
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2023 23:18:59 GMT -5
Don't think so. The records themselves still belong to the government and must be returned. Copies of non-classified material should be okay, but copies are not even supposed to be made of classified documents outside of official channels, as far as I can recall. that is my understanding, too. this guy AT FIRST made it seem like the copies of classified material was OK. but the interviewer didn't let him off the hook. i think that what he was hoping was that there would be some marking on the document indicating that it was declassified and copied. but as Jack Smith pointed out, NONE of the documents in question were declassified. now, i get that Trump thinks that he has magical powers, and can just declassify stuff. but that is not true. and his entire case hinges on it. Jack Smith addressed that in the indictment. it is about half way through, if memory serves. he basically says that declassification has to be cleared with the classifying entity, which is what my understanding was, as well. so, does ANYONE at this point think that Trump can just randomly declassify shit? because that is his only hope, here, imo. Trump keeps mentioning the PRA. but the PRA is actually the enforcement arm that requires him to turn over everything that is not private to the government. it is the PRA that has gotten him into trouble. it is not a get out of jail free card. i don't understand what reading of the PRA that allows him to keep PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS. there is nothing in there about that. it doesn't even mention classified material. that is a separate standard, and as we have already discussed above, a separate violation. I have no doubt there is a procedure in place that is normally followed if the President wishes to declassify something, the government is a bureaucratic entity. However, I do think the President of the United States has the final say on declassifying "shit". Paragraph 34 (pages 15/16) indicates that Trump didn't declassify what he was sharing. That is what shatters his hope. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 10, 2023 0:14:09 GMT -5
i was just remembering Trump whining about them going through his son's bedroom.
i think we all understand now why they did that.
he was storing boxes in a BATHROOM.
i mean, come on man.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 10, 2023 1:18:18 GMT -5
So.... Trump is indicted in New York. He is indicted in federal court in Florida. He will be indicted in Georgia. He has already been forced to pay millions in judgments. Are there other cases still ongoing? He has what has been called a D-list of legal talent representing him because nobody else will. Meadows apparently flipped. Attorney-client privilege was pierced under the crime-fraud exception, so Corcoran at least is forced to testify. Nauta will almost certainly flip, I would think. Jack Smith has recordings and video to back up everything he charged. Trump has forever tarnished his name and damaged his "empire." He will go down in history as one of the worst presidents and people in American history.... I don't know, Donald, was it worth it? You know, as long as Donald Trump is losing, I don't think I will ever get tired of the winning! So much winning!  |
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 10, 2023 2:01:28 GMT -5
So.... Trump is indicted in New York. He is indicted in federal court in Florida. He will be indicted in Georgia. He has already been forced to pay millions in judgments. Are there other cases still ongoing? He has what has been called a D-list of legal talent representing him because nobody else will. Meadows apparently flipped. Attorney-client privilege was pierced under the crime-fraud exception, so Corcoran at least is forced to testify. Nauta will almost certainly flip, I would think. Jack Smith has recordings and video to back up everything he charged. Trump has forever tarnished his name and damaged his "empire." He will go down in history as one of the worst presidents and people in American history.... I don't know, Donald, was it worth it? You know, as long as Donald Trump is losing, I don't think I will ever get tired of the winning! So much winning! all of this howling by his Nazi fanbase will die down as people soak in the gravity of the indictments against him, i think. this is really sobering evidence. he will likely have a fourth case against him in DC. they seem to be falling at 2 month intervals. i am reasonably confident all four major cases will be happening at once. that will cut into his campaign schedule considerably. he should maybe consider dropping out. but of course, he won't do that. because if he did, he would lose one of his two best chances at exoneration. even though self pardoning is debatable. the other big question is if ANY of these cases will wrap up before next November. i am here predicting that at least one will. |
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 10, 2023 8:32:05 GMT -5
The guy who was indicted with him - Walt the valet who moved the boxes around in advance of the lawyer search of the storage room - there is some speculation he might flip and become a witness.
Trump will say he doesn’t know the guy.
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Post by andi9899 on Jun 10, 2023 8:54:21 GMT -5
The guy who was indicted with him - Walt the valet who moved the boxes around in advance of the lawyer search of the storage room - there is some speculation he might flip and become a witness. Trump will say he doesn’t know the guy. He will most definitely flip. He's just a regular person without the resources has. He can't afford to defend himself and will do what he needs to in order to avoid jail time. |
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 10, 2023 9:10:50 GMT -5
he will end up with over 100. guaranteed. so what is it i hear about these criminal miscreants threatening Civil War 2? guess JAN6 was not enough for them? time to round their asses up, as well. Starting with Rep Andy Biggs & Rep Clay Higgins. Rep Andy Biggs: We have now reached a war phase. Eye for an eye. Rep Clay Higgins: President Trump said he has "been summoned to appear at the Federal Courthouse in Miami on Tuesday, at 3 PM." This is a perimeter probe from the oppressors. Hold. rPOTUS has this. Buckle up. 1/50K know your bridges. Rock steady calm. That is all. In Canada there was apparently an incident where the far right people seized control of some bridges for a while - apparently that’s part of the game plan down here, too. I’m hoping this is just the rabid right rattling their sabers about saving America from the colored and homos. I hope these outrageous breeches of security highlighted in living color in the indictment will turn off the run of the mill MAGA patriots who still love America over Trump. |
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2023 9:19:42 GMT -5
The guy who was indicted with him - Walt the valet who moved the boxes around in advance of the lawyer search of the storage room - there is some speculation he might flip and become a witness. Trump will say he doesn’t know the guy. He will most definitely flip. He's just a regular person without the resources has. He can't afford to defend himself and will do what he needs to in order to avoid jail time. Nauta, whose full name is Waltine Torre Nauta, is from Guam and enlisted in the Navy in 2001. From 2012 to 2021, he served in Washington, D.C. as part of the Presidential Food Service, according to his service record.
...
Nauta was a valet to Trump, according to the indictment, a role that is similar to a personal assistant or "body man." Nauta would have worked closely with Trump in the White House and traveled with him, and continued to work for Trump after his presidency.
link I am less certain he won't fall on his sword. Career military types aren't necessarily just "regular". A willingness to take orders is something I couldn't do for a career (7 years was as much as I could take). |
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Post by tallguy on Jun 10, 2023 10:04:27 GMT -5
He will most definitely flip. He's just a regular person without the resources has. He can't afford to defend himself and will do what he needs to in order to avoid jail time. Nauta, whose full name is Waltine Torre Nauta, is from Guam and enlisted in the Navy in 2001. From 2012 to 2021, he served in Washington, D.C. as part of the Presidential Food Service, according to his service record.
...
Nauta was a valet to Trump, according to the indictment, a role that is similar to a personal assistant or "body man." Nauta would have worked closely with Trump in the White House and traveled with him, and continued to work for Trump after his presidency.
link I am less certain he won't fall on his sword. Career military types aren't necessarily just "regular". A willingness to take orders is something I couldn't do for a career (7 years was as much as I could take).Seven years longer than I could have....  |
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2023 10:09:34 GMT -5
... declassification has to be cleared with the classifying entity ... I think this should be considered in detail. How does this play out in a real world situation. An example: the CIA runs an operation in a South American country. It leads to the assassination of a political leader in that country. An investigation is run to see if the CIA was directly responsible for that result. The CIA classifies the report of that investigation Top Secret. The President of the United States decides that it is important for the results to be released to the public. The CIA tells him, "No." The President therefore can't legally disclose it. Taking it a step further, say the President does disclose it. The CIA refers the case to the Justice Department for review to determine whether charges should be filed against the President. As I indicated before, I think the President does have final authority. Or maybe I should say I hope so instead of it being in the hands of unelected faceless bureaucrats. |
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2023 10:13:03 GMT -5
Nauta, whose full name is Waltine Torre Nauta, is from Guam and enlisted in the Navy in 2001. From 2012 to 2021, he served in Washington, D.C. as part of the Presidential Food Service, according to his service record.
...
Nauta was a valet to Trump, according to the indictment, a role that is similar to a personal assistant or "body man." Nauta would have worked closely with Trump in the White House and traveled with him, and continued to work for Trump after his presidency.
link I am less certain he won't fall on his sword. Career military types aren't necessarily just "regular". A willingness to take orders is something I couldn't do for a career (7 years was as much as I could take).Seven years longer than I could have.... Well, full disclosure - there was a (totally unjustified) mutiny charge in there.  |
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 10, 2023 10:18:34 GMT -5
Seven years longer than I could have.... Well, full disclosure - there was a (totally unjustified) mutiny charge in there. Well, full disclosure - if it was after Day 1 you still would probably have beaten me. |
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 10, 2023 10:21:03 GMT -5
Out of curiosity how does the Secret Service fit into this? They must have witnessed most of this. Can they testify? It seems weird they would witness high treason and just male sure the guy doing it isn't killed. I thought you guys have a thing about serving country over individuals.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 10, 2023 10:33:43 GMT -5
Out of curiosity how does the Secret Service fit into this? They must have witnessed most of this. Can they testify? It seems weird they would witness high treason and just male sure the guy doing it isn't killed. I thought you guys have a thing about serving country over individuals. The Secret Service is a law enforcement agency. Its agents have a duty to report crimes, and there is no "protective functions privilege" which would shield them from having to testify if called. That being said, they are not necessarily at the president's side at all times. If Trump were in the Oval Office or the residence, they would not be in the room with him. They might be on the plane but not "with" him. They would not be listening in on his phone calls. In sum, there are a LOT of opportunities for someone such as Trump to commit illegal acts without agents witnessing them. |
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2023 10:34:23 GMT -5
Out of curiosity how does the Secret Service fit into this? They must have witnessed most of this. Can they testify? It seems weird they would witness high treason and just male sure the guy doing it isn't killed. I thought you guys have a thing about serving country over individuals. I read this: Secret Service. You can imagine that Trump will argue Mar-a-Lago was secure because he had Secret Service protection. But the government points out that protecting classified material is not their job. link Also not sure how much they directly witnessed. They are not always in the room during meetings and seeing boxes being moved isn't a clear indicator of "high treason" taking place. However, I am sure they will be called to testify if the prosecution thinks they have something significant to say. |
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Post by moon/Laura on Jun 10, 2023 10:39:36 GMT -5
I think there's not going to be enough popcorn in all the world to go with the shitshow trump is part of, lol. I was stalking a former FB friend's page (no one from here and a definite trumpy). The person *still* supports trump and feels that the indictments are bs, that the country is doomed, and that everything the dems believe are against the morals and beliefs the country was built on.  You know, I would LOVE to hear Paul's comments on this right now. Wonder if he's still a trumpy, too.
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 10, 2023 10:49:47 GMT -5
Out of curiosity how does the Secret Service fit into this? They must have witnessed most of this. Can they testify? It seems weird they would witness high treason and just male sure the guy doing it isn't killed. I thought you guys have a thing about serving country over individuals. I read through the indictment and somewhere in there they specifically say the Secret Service did not know anything about these documents (or basically anything in Trump’s boxes) - they very firmly stated Secret Service was NOT involved. I figure they put it there in plain English assuming this will be something Trump will try to use in his defense. |
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