Car Prices -- what is going on? Get a Tesla?

[minnesotapaintlady]

May 16, 2023 13:45:34 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

May 16, 2023 10:43:02 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

This probably works if you stick to interstate driving and plan all your stops ahead of time based on where the chargers are.  With the road trips I take all electric just isn't there yet.  It's getting better, but there are definitely a lot of "dead" zones and you can't just decide to spontaneously jump onto a scenic side road like you can with the gas back up. 

This pretty much mirrors what we saw driving.  As long as you remain on a coast, you are golden.  

The interstates are pretty safe too.  They seem to have one every 150 miles or so, BUT, we did see more than one when we were on our road trips the past couple years that were out of service for whatever reason.  It would really suck to show up to one you were depending on and have it be down! 

I think I would be fine for 95% of my driving which is work to home and school, but if I was going to choose between Tesla and Prime I'd go Prime.  Even with the 42 mile range I'd still be running straight electric almost all the time, but would have the ability to go long distances if needed.  Plus, Toyota service department 8 miles away and nearest Tesla dealership is 100 miles.  I get that you don't need service as much as with an ICE, but I'm sure there is some and some of it is probably unique to Tesla so not just taking it to the mom and pop shop.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

This is an interesting article.  Unfortunately, it is WSJ and I don5 hav3 a subscription (TD does).  The road trip did not go smoothly, largely due to lack of functional charging stations.  

www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401

[jerseygirl]

May 16, 2023 14:50:01 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

This is an interesting article.  Unfortunately, it is WSJ and I don5 hav3 a subscription (TD does).  The road trip did not go smoothly, largely due to lack of functional charging stations.  

www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401

The EV wasn’t a Tesla so couldn’t use Tesla superchargers. Other charging systems are at this point scarce and in my scant experience not maintained well. Maybe the new initiative that will spend huge amounts of money on charging networks will help - sometime in the future?

[Opti]

May 16, 2023 10:47:17 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

May 16, 2023 10:25:12 GMT -5 Opti said:

 also I understand from an owner of a Y, you can use a regular wall outlet to charge it up if you had to. Probably slow, but it is something.

A wall outlet is so very slow it’s essentially useless

I think it would be best for emergencies or for someone who could afford to leave their car plugged in overnight. Did not quiz the doctor who owns one on this fact.

[movingforward]

My state says there will be charging stations every 50 miles in 5 years. Not many right now.

That's about the time I will be looking for a new car. I do hope to go electric. It will not be a Telsa as I'm not all that crazy about them and I refuse to spend that much for a car (which in my mind just gets me from point A to point B. I'm not a car person).

They now make an electric version of my car (Hyundai Kona) but it is only available in 11 states. The next few years should bring more electric options.

[tskeeter]

May 16, 2023 10:43:02 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 16, 2023 10:04:27 GMT -5 schildi said:

I thought so too, untill I started looking at it closer. With the model Y, you get 330 miles of Range, so 5 hours of nonstop driving. When you do stop at one of their superchargers, it just takes 15 mins to gain another 160 miles. Or 30 mins to full.
It's a safety thing also to stop and take a break every once in a while anyways, so with the above charging times, I think it's feasible now

This probably works if you stick to interstate driving and plan all your stops ahead of time based on where the chargers are.  With the road trips I take all electric just isn't there yet.  It's getting better, but there are definitely a lot of "dead" zones and you can't just decide to spontaneously jump onto a scenic side road like you can with the gas back up. 

Wow!  We regularly drive between Reno and Minneapolis.  From your map it looks like a dead zone of about 500 miles between Reno and Salt Lake City.  Then a dead zone of about 935 miles between Salt Lake City and Omaha.  I’m sure that the “dead zones” do contain charging stations, just not lots of them.  It’d take some careful planning, or a whole bunch of very lengthy 110 volt charges to make the trip.  It would be even more challenging if we were making this trip during the summer, in 100 degree temps, or for Christmas, when -10F temps are not unusual, and EV range per charge can decline by 25% or more. I don’t think I’m up for an EV as anything but a commuter car just yet.

[minnesotapaintlady]

May 16, 2023 15:09:51 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

May 16, 2023 10:43:02 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

This probably works if you stick to interstate driving and plan all your stops ahead of time based on where the chargers are.  With the road trips I take all electric just isn't there yet.  It's getting better, but there are definitely a lot of "dead" zones and you can't just decide to spontaneously jump onto a scenic side road like you can with the gas back up. 

Wow!  We regularly drive between Reno and Minneapolis.  From your map it looks like a dead zone of about 500 miles between Reno and Salt Lake City.  Then a dead zone of about 935 miles between Salt Lake City and Omaha.  I’m sure that the “dead zones” do contain charging stations, just not lots of them.  It’d take some careful planning, or a whole bunch of very lengthy 110 volt charges to make the trip.  It would be even more challenging if we were making this trip during the summer, in 100 degree temps, or for Christmas, when -10F temps are not unusual, and EV range per charge can decline by 25% or more. I don’t think I’m up for an EV as anything but a commuter car just yet.

This is a better map and interactive.  I didn't realize only Teslas could use the Tesla chargers until jerseygirl posted that.  Ouch.  That's a lot of them.

chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html

[jerseygirl]

There are apps to plan trips that locate charging stations along your route (at least for Tesla). You can choose distance between superchargers or based on amount of charge left before hitting the supercharger. Some folks prefer more but shorter stops, others will base on location. Superchargers are fastest up to 80% of charge then slower for last bit

Went up to Boston with DGS on college ‘tour’. Put in ‘find superchargers’ in Boston and directed me to a shopping mall. Chargers weren’t Tesla SC but another kind which I’ve forgotten. Needed to download an app, enter my CC but couldn’t get it to work. So then realized I should request TESLA supercharger nearby. Well location seemed to have no Tesla SC?? DGS realized we were in front of a big parking garage and the Tesla SCs were inside the garage.Sure enough 8 were in lower level. We then realized cities usually don’t have many gas stations in downtown either. Land is too expensive.

[tskeeter]

May 16, 2023 15:16:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 16, 2023 15:09:51 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Wow!  We regularly drive between Reno and Minneapolis.  From your map it looks like a dead zone of about 500 miles between Reno and Salt Lake City.  Then a dead zone of about 935 miles between Salt Lake City and Omaha.  I’m sure that the “dead zones” do contain charging stations, just not lots of them.  It’d take some careful planning, or a whole bunch of very lengthy 110 volt charges to make the trip.  It would be even more challenging if we were making this trip during the summer, in 100 degree temps, or for Christmas, when -10F temps are not unusual, and EV range per charge can decline by 25% or more. I don’t think I’m up for an EV as anything but a commuter car just yet.

This is a better map and interactive.  I didn't realize only Teslas could use the Tesla chargers until jerseygirl posted that.  Ouch.  That's a lot of them.

chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html

MPL, the chargehub map does show more charging stations, but there are still a couple of 450 to 500 mile stretches of my route without any high speed chargers.  Interesting to note that that the “big” charging stations seem to be able to charge 8 vehicles at a time.  Compare that to gas pumps, where a freeway interchange might have something in the range of 120 gas pumps.  (I assumed 4 gas stations per interchange, with 8 islands per station, and 4 gas pumps per island.)  Even if my assumptions are off by 50%, it looks like an EV driver is more likely to have to wait for a charging station to be available than an ICE driver is to wait for a gas pump.

[jerseygirl]

I’ve never had to wait for a Tesla supercharger once I get to the location

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 16, 2023 16:07:48 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

May 16, 2023 15:16:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

This is a better map and interactive.  I didn't realize only Teslas could use the Tesla chargers until jerseygirl posted that.  Ouch.  That's a lot of them.

chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html

MPL, the chargehub map does show more charging stations, but there are still a couple of 450 to 500 mile stretches of my route without any high speed chargers.  Interesting to note that that the “big” charging stations seem to be able to charge 8 vehicles at a time.  Compare that to gas pumps, where a freeway interchange might have something in the range of 120 gas pumps.  (I assumed 4 gas stations per interchange, with 8 islands per station, and 4 gas pumps per island.)  Even if my assumptions are off by 50%, it looks like an EV driver is more likely to have to wait for a charging station to be available than an ICE driver is to wait for a gas pump.

Absolutely.  In Vancouver, it seems like every other car is a white Tesla.  There is a charging station in the shopping center we hit for either Starbucks or th3 grocery store.  There are 12 chargers there and I have yet to see them not all being used as we pass by, and a line waiting to use them.  
ETA:  TD says there are more like 20 chargers constantly in use.  

It’s not the same as a fill up, where 3 minutes and you are gone.  People are grocery shopping, or having dinner while charging.  

[movingforward]

Yes, if the US is going to go electric there will have to be some serious overhaul. Not everyone can afford to, or wants to, pay high dollar for a car. That's getting a little better as more auto companies are pursuing electric models. I tend to think that issue will be solved in the next 5-7 years.

I am hoping the mileage issue will also be solved in 5-7 years. Last week I needed to drive to Houston (3 hrs away) for a work function. I needed to do the trip there and back in the same day due to another commitment the following day. Flights were awful so I had to drive. An electric car would have never made it there and back for me in the same day. The venue where the meeting was held had only 2 charging stations. Ideally, I would like an electric car to go at 400-500 miles and charging stations are going to need to be readily available. I have noticed most hotels only have 3-8 charging stations in their garage.

I'm not sure why companies aren't making more hybrids. That seems like it would be a better stepping stone.

[minnesotapaintlady]

May 17, 2023 9:20:32 GMT -5 movingforward said:

I'm not sure why companies aren't making more hybrids. That seems like it would be a better stepping stone.

Well, they really are compared to even 5 years ago.  It seems everything has a hybrid option out there now.  It wasn't that long ago that there were only a few models.

A hybrid with an all electric up to 100 miles option would be perfect for me.  I could be on electric the vast majority of the time.  And on long trips if I see a charger I can use it, otherwise, no big deal.  But, those electric/hybrid vehicles are still awfully spendy compared to what I spend on transportation now, so financially I am much better off running my current old and paid for cars into the ground. 

[bean29]

May 16, 2023 10:47:17 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

May 16, 2023 10:25:12 GMT -5 Opti said:

 also I understand from an owner of a Y, you can use a regular wall outlet to charge it up if you had to. Probably slow, but it is something.

A wall outlet is so very slow it’s essentially useless

I don't really agree.  I also have a RAV4 Prime.  We were charging my car overnight.  I come home, park the car, and it is not going anywhere until morning.  charging slowly is fine.  Now, if I did not also have an ICE engine as backup, I would be more concerned.

My DH has a Ford Lighting F150 Lariat Truck with extended range.  The range on that is 330 miles, he charges every couple of days using a Charge Point Charger.  He has a Ford charger too, he just has not installed it yet.  The Ford one will allow you to reverse the power and use it as a generator.  He says it takes 5 hours to get to 100 miles.  We have driven both cars to Chicago.  We also purchased the Prime in Maryland and drove it home using the ICE engine.  

[movingforward]

May 17, 2023 10:21:05 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 17, 2023 9:20:32 GMT -5 movingforward said:

I'm not sure why companies aren't making more hybrids. That seems like it would be a better stepping stone.

Well, they really are compared to even 5 years ago.  It seems everything has a hybrid option out there now.  It wasn't that long ago that there were only a few models.

A hybrid with an all electric up to 100 miles option would be perfect for me.  I could be on electric the vast majority of the time.  And on long trips if I see a charger I can use it, otherwise, no big deal.  But, those electric/hybrid vehicles are still awfully spendy compared to what I spend on transportation now, so financially I am much better off running my current old and paid for cars into the ground. 

Very true. Affordability for electric and hybrid is just not there for a lot of people.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

May 15, 2023 23:35:08 GMT -5 schildi said:

Insurance seems very high on the Y.
$800 per year more than our current Rave 4 Prime.
Need to think about that.

this is why tesla started offering insurance, because the rates were so high at other insurers.  At currents rates my insurance is going to be less than 800/year total.

[thyme4change]

May 16, 2023 16:07:48 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

May 16, 2023 15:16:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

This is a better map and interactive.  I didn't realize only Teslas could use the Tesla chargers until jerseygirl posted that.  Ouch.  That's a lot of them.

chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html

MPL, the chargehub map does show more charging stations, but there are still a couple of 450 to 500 mile stretches of my route without any high speed chargers.  Interesting to note that that the “big” charging stations seem to be able to charge 8 vehicles at a time.  Compare that to gas pumps, where a freeway interchange might have something in the range of 120 gas pumps.  (I assumed 4 gas stations per interchange, with 8 islands per station, and 4 gas pumps per island.)  Even if my assumptions are off by 50%, it looks like an EV driver is more likely to have to wait for a charging station to be available than an ICE driver is to wait for a gas pump.

90% of EV charges happen at home. 0% of gas fillups happen outside a gas station.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

May 16, 2023 10:47:17 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

May 16, 2023 10:25:12 GMT -5 Opti said:

 also I understand from an owner of a Y, you can use a regular wall outlet to charge it up if you had to. Probably slow, but it is something.

A wall outlet is so very slow it’s essentially useless

on the road or in general?

I've exclusively used the wall outlet for a few months and find it very convenient. If I took a road trip, while relying on the charging network, I would certainly take the wall outlet charger along just in case! While the tesla network is certainly the most comprehensive, tesla can also charge at other generic EV charge stations. But - my guess would be that these would be concentrated in places that already have superchargers.

Bright spot - tesla roadside will come and save you if your battery poops out....but it is an extra service, not free with the package. Still - it is good back up safeguard if you get in a pinch.

I did not get the long range vehicle, and I wish I had! But given that a viable future has to include the elimination of ICE vehicles, and the the market for EVs has changed so dramatically over the past 5 years, I personally would not want to invest in a new car that was anything other and EV. Philosophically - because I think it's critical to the climate, and practically - because ICE could be regulated out sooner rather than later. So I think that it is highly likely that not only will the charging network just get better very quickly, but that at some point the gas station network is going to start dwindling as that business model becomes less viable.

Financially - I would not want to saddle myself with a car that was going to become obsolete in the near future. Sure - it may be 20 years into the future so buying that ICE or hybrid works out. But it could be 5 years if the climate pressures force our hands sooner than convienent and make the transition out of ICE an immerative. I generally plan a minimum of 10 years for any car purchase, so would not consider anything other than EV right now.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

May 16, 2023 15:09:51 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

May 16, 2023 10:43:02 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

This probably works if you stick to interstate driving and plan all your stops ahead of time based on where the chargers are.  With the road trips I take all electric just isn't there yet.  It's getting better, but there are definitely a lot of "dead" zones and you can't just decide to spontaneously jump onto a scenic side road like you can with the gas back up. 

Wow!  We regularly drive between Reno and Minneapolis.  From your map it looks like a dead zone of about 500 miles between Reno and Salt Lake City.  Then a dead zone of about 935 miles between Salt Lake City and Omaha.  I’m sure that the “dead zones” do contain charging stations, just not lots of them.  It’d take some careful planning, or a whole bunch of very lengthy 110 volt charges to make the trip.  It would be even more challenging if we were making this trip during the summer, in 100 degree temps, or for Christmas, when -10F temps are not unusual, and EV range per charge can decline by 25% or more. I don’t think I’m up for an EV as anything but a commuter car just yet.

tesla says you can make it, and don't need the long range version of the car either....


www.tesla.com/en_CA/trips#/?v=M3_2020_StandardRangePlus&o=Reno,%20NV,%20USA_Reno%20Washoe%20County%20NV@39.529919,-119.8142691&s=&d=Minneapolis,%20MN,%20USA_Minneapolis%20Hennepin%20County%20MN@44.977753,-93.2650108

[Rukh O'Rorke]

A few other thoughts!

Since tesla has glass roof, it annoys me that it is not photovoltaic! I would like the entire exterior to be PV so that it just charges itself while it sits there in the driveway.....

One reason I did not get the long range was because it looked like regular range would suit me just fine. However, in very cold weather, the battery needs to keep to a minimal level of warmth, and if the car sits for 2-3 days, the battery is losing power keeping it's self warm enough to not poop out. We were at -9F so it was cold, but I hadn't anticipated that piece of it. And then keeping the car warm enough for comfort in that weather, you aren't going to see the range listed. If I had know that, I would have gone with long range.

There has also been a huge surge of tesla sales in recent quarters, so I would expect in cases where people are waiting to charge that that would be identified and more chargers made available.

I've noticed that places like Target and Whole foods are getting EV charging in their parking lots, so hoepfully that will continue to grow to provide options.

[minnesotapaintlady]

May 17, 2023 12:55:45 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

May 16, 2023 15:09:51 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Wow!  We regularly drive between Reno and Minneapolis.  From your map it looks like a dead zone of about 500 miles between Reno and Salt Lake City.  Then a dead zone of about 935 miles between Salt Lake City and Omaha.  I’m sure that the “dead zones” do contain charging stations, just not lots of them.  It’d take some careful planning, or a whole bunch of very lengthy 110 volt charges to make the trip.  It would be even more challenging if we were making this trip during the summer, in 100 degree temps, or for Christmas, when -10F temps are not unusual, and EV range per charge can decline by 25% or more. I don’t think I’m up for an EV as anything but a commuter car just yet.

tesla says you can make it, and don't need the long range version of the car either....


www.tesla.com/en_CA/trips#/?v=M3_2020_StandardRangePlus&o=Reno,%20NV,%20USA_Reno%20Washoe%20County%20NV@39.529919,-119.8142691&s=&d=Minneapolis,%20MN,%20USA_Minneapolis%20Hennepin%20County%20MN@44.977753,-93.2650108

A lot of those stretches are over 200 miles each.  That would stress me out to no end on a vacation.   Have to stay on the interstate, no side trips, better not be any road construction or detours and hopefully none of the chargers are down when you arrive...  I am way too spontaneous on trips.  We don't even know what town we're staying in until we get there most of the time.

[steph08]

I really like the idea of an electric vehicle, but living in rural PA, there are few charging stations around - though one of the grocery stores did put in 2, so that's something! 

I could probably make due with one - 95% of our driving is just to school, ballfields, grocery stores, etc., but we would like to make further drives as the kids get older, and I'm worried about the availability of chargers on trips. 

I have a Highlander Hybrid right now, which I really enjoy. Bigger SUV with good gas mileage (30-ish in winter; 35-ish in summer). I have seriously thought about a plug-in hybrid, which runs just on electric for 30-ish miles and then switches to a hybrid/gas engine, but I haven't made that jump yet. I looked at the Kia Sorento PHEV and the quality was lagging from some reviews I read, and it wasn't as big as the Highlander. 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

And that trend shows no sign of slowing. In its annual climate update, the WMO said that between 2023 and 2027, there is now a 66% chance that the planet’s temperature will climb above 1.5 degrees Celsius of warming above pre-industrial levels for at least one year.

www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/world/global-warming-breach-wmo-climate-intl/index.html




Might be good to escalate transitions……waiting for all electric to be perfection might come at a higher cost than we can afford….

[minnesotapaintlady]

May 17, 2023 14:57:08 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

And that trend shows no sign of slowing. In its annual climate update, the WMO said that between 2023 and 2027, there is now a 66% chance that the planet’s temperature will climb above 1.5 degrees Celsius of warming above pre-industrial levels for at least one year.

www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/world/global-warming-breach-wmo-climate-intl/index.html




Might be good to escalate transitions……waiting for all electric to be perfection might come at a higher cost than we can afford….

It also has to be a more affordable option for the masses.  42K for a base model Tesla is out of reach for most people.  Or SHOULD be anyhow, since average household income is about 70K.

Plus, me switching to a Tesla won't do anything for the environment because unless I choose to destroy them, my current vehicles would still be getting driven, just by someone else. Someone just paying $44/year for tabs instead of $600! 

[Opti]

I think hybrids are the way to go. I was shopping for a used Camry Hybrid years ago, but they were so popular I never even got to drive one. Missed a nice one by a day. 

[tskeeter]

May 17, 2023 9:20:32 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Yes, if the US is going to go electric there will have to be some serious overhaul. Not everyone can afford to, or wants to, pay high dollar for a car. That's getting a little better as more auto companies are pursuing electric models. I tend to think that issue will be solved in the next 5-7 years.

I am hoping the mileage issue will also be solved in 5-7 years. Last week I needed to drive to Houston (3 hrs away) for a work function. I needed to do the trip there and back in the same day due to another commitment the following day. Flights were awful so I had to drive. An electric car would have never made it there and back for me in the same day. The venue where the meeting was held had only 2 charging stations. Ideally, I would like an electric car to go at 400-500 miles and charging stations are going to need to be readily available. I have noticed most hotels only have 3-8 charging stations in their garage.

I'm not sure why companies aren't making more hybrids. That seems like it would be a better stepping stone.

I think you’re right.

While we can hope for significant EV range improvement in the next several years, I suspect that’s some unwarranted optimism. Battery technology for EV’s has been under development for decades. At this point, I think improvement will be in fairly small increments vs. a revolutionary change that will double EV ranges over night.

The issue I see is the number of chargers that are available. If you consider a 15 minute charge cycle vs. 5 minutes to fill a gas tank, you’d need at least three times the number of chargers as we currently have gas pumps. And then you have to rely on todays gas pump ediquitte of fill the tank and clear the pump, rather than plug in and go have dinner or go shopping and tie up a charging station for an hour or more. To make EV use comparable to our existing ICE world, we’re going to need several times more charging stations than are available today.

[jerseygirl]

WSJ had an article about hybrids. Many people who own them (plug in) stop after a fairly short time. Guess it’s an easy thing to overlook in a busy life

A hybrid seems problematic cause it’s 2 systems -ICE and electric- plus interface between the 2 systems. Just more to go wrong. I prefer simpler appliances etc
And EV are very much simpler than ICE. Auto unions ade worried about job losses since EVs need fewer people to produce the car

The Lightning truck seems to be really innovative. Can power up tools that tradesmen need, also can be used to power a house when electricity is down.

[jerseygirl]

Tesla sends message when charging is completed. Also think there is a fine of car remains too long after charging is done

[jerseygirl]

Thinking many people will be charging at home so the comparison with number of gas pumps isn’t correct
People can’t fill gas tanks at home

[tskeeter]

May 17, 2023 12:37:27 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

May 16, 2023 16:07:48 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

MPL, the chargehub map does show more charging stations, but there are still a couple of 450 to 500 mile stretches of my route without any high speed chargers.  Interesting to note that that the “big” charging stations seem to be able to charge 8 vehicles at a time.  Compare that to gas pumps, where a freeway interchange might have something in the range of 120 gas pumps.  (I assumed 4 gas stations per interchange, with 8 islands per station, and 4 gas pumps per island.)  Even if my assumptions are off by 50%, it looks like an EV driver is more likely to have to wait for a charging station to be available than an ICE driver is to wait for a gas pump.

90% of EV charges happen at home. 0% of gas fillups happen outside a gas station.

Sorry.  I thought it was clear that I was discussing a road trip scenario rather than commuting.