Be careful - you can get shot/killed anywhere/anytime

[Opti]

May 13, 2023 8:05:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 12, 2023 15:17:34 GMT -5 daisylu said:

If I say what I want to I will be banned for sure. But a pregnant woman, who didn't get that way on her own, is secondary to cells? Even if it kills her and leaves her other children without a mother?
GTFOH

Why would the pregnancy kill her I said if medically necessairly. It should not be voluntairily. 

How many reasons did you miss in the abortion thread? Stand your ground law is supposedly to give a homeowner the right to defend his life and property should it become necessary.

Yet, yet

gun rights people do not make the logical leap that this is similar to voluntarily terminating a pregnancy that might kill you or might not be viable. Or in the case of most ectopic pregnancies is ALREADY DEAD!!!! No pregnancy can be carried to term in a Fallopian tube. It is usually discovered when the fetus dies because fallopian tubes have much less room than a uterus for a fetus to grow to term.

There is water breaking before a fetus is medically viable.
There is a fetus dying or dead rotting inside your body.

The laws written right now are by people like you who do not understand how often this comes up and make no easy way for exceptions to be accommodated. Your belief is so strong that the majority of these procedures are purely economic or societal choice that you miss how many are not. How many are chosen not because they wanted the pregnancy to end this way, but because it wasn't going to end well at all. 

(Just wasted 5 minutes of anger on something that probably will make no difference to you while I need to move mountains to me in RL.)

[Opti]

May 13, 2023 8:59:41 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 8:36:53 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Almost all of the states who adopted new laws have no exceptions for "medically necessary" - they are sending women to the parking lot until they are about dead.

It SHOULD be a right to make my own medical decisions with my doctor. You are ok with owning guns being a right, but not with women making their own choices on reproduction?

And why are "rights" still determined by a document hundreds of years old? Repubs act like is the be all end all, things change. At the time the Constitution was written slavery was acceptable and women were second class citizens. Yes amendments were added, but when was the last added?
The world changes, the US needs to step up.

Amendment would be the way to go. Plenty of times the dems could have done this so it is just not the republicans. Both sides hate to budge an inch. Look at the issue with the debt ceiling bunch of asses chest pounding. No clear direction to make sound decisions to move this country forward. 

This country is spiraling down the toilet. Gun control, and abortion are not at the top of the list. 

You know the Trumpublicans aren't aware of that right? These are their two issues plus thinking they can own the libs. 

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:01:35 GMT -5 daisylu said:

May 13, 2023 8:14:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

It is not just your body tho. Once conceived there is another life in you. The pro abortionist stands behind the myth of its just cells to make themselves feel better about throwing away a baby they know just who and what they are. Covid is different not only is it your body but you have the choice to protect yourself from others not just others stopping the spread. I complied but in my house I didn't force anyone from the outside to wear a mask it was their choice.

This is disgusting coming from a female. So a woman's body can never truly be her own? I don't see anyone making laws against men's bodies. Sperm is life, but nobody is making laws against men masturbating.

Why? Part of being a female is to reproduce if you want to. There are steps to take if you don't want to but that is nature. Female body is not just hers once there is a pregnancy. 

Masturbation is fine no coception happened, that is when it is truly just cells. 

[pulmonarymd]

May 13, 2023 9:05:32 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 8:52:21 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

 Viability outside of the mother is irrelevent. It still lives. It's not a life until it can survive outside of the womb

There's no such thing as a Pro-abortionist. But 'pubs are always trying to spin pro CHOICE that way.

Viability outside the mother is irrevelent. If it has a heartbeat then it is alive period. Unless the mother life is in danger then the only course of action is to continue with the pregnancy.

Your right I probably should use pro choice I will start when people stop saying pro-life for anti-abortion. 

Wrong yet again. Ever heard of a little thing called brain death? These individuals have heart beats, but if the meet certain criteria they are legally dead. It is why we can use their organs for transplant.

Try again. And this time try to use your brain

[daisylu]

May 13, 2023 9:09:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:01:35 GMT -5 daisylu said:

This is disgusting coming from a female. So a woman's body can never truly be her own? I don't see anyone making laws against men's bodies. Sperm is life, but nobody is making laws against men masturbating.

Why? Part of being a female is to reproduce if you want to. There are steps to take if you don't want to but that is nature. Female body is not just hers once there is a pregnancy. 

Masturbation is fine no coception happened, that is when it is truly just cells. 

I got it now, you are never going to get it. Men are apparently untouchable in your eyes.

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:08:31 GMT -5 Opti said:

May 13, 2023 8:59:41 GMT -5 scgal said:

Amendment would be the way to go. Plenty of times the dems could have done this so it is just not the republicans. Both sides hate to budge an inch. Look at the issue with the debt ceiling bunch of asses chest pounding. No clear direction to make sound decisions to move this country forward. 

This country is spiraling down the toilet. Gun control, and abortion are not at the top of the list. 

You know the Trumpublicans aren't aware of that right? These are their two issues plus thinking they can own the libs. 

I should have stated it better they shouldn't be at the top of the list

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:09:58 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

May 13, 2023 9:05:32 GMT -5 scgal said:

Viability outside the mother is irrevelent. If it has a heartbeat then it is alive period. Unless the mother life is in danger then the only course of action is to continue with the pregnancy.

Your right I probably should use pro choice I will start when people stop saying pro-life for anti-abortion. 

Wrong yet again. Ever heard of a little thing called brain death? These individuals have heart beats, but if the meet certain criteria they are legally dead. It is why we can use their organs for transplant.

Try again. And this time try to use your brain

Even as rude as you are. You are the "DR". I beleive you are referring to brain dead vs clinically dead. In which case if there is a heartbeat then the chld is still alive.

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:11:41 GMT -5 daisylu said:

May 13, 2023 9:09:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Why? Part of being a female is to reproduce if you want to. There are steps to take if you don't want to but that is nature. Female body is not just hers once there is a pregnancy. 

Masturbation is fine no coception happened, that is when it is truly just cells. 

I got it now, you are never going to get it. Men are apparently untouchable in your eyes.

I get it just fine and willing to debate. BTW I could say the exact samething about you. What does Men being untouchable have to do with anything. 

[moon/Laura]

May 13, 2023 9:05:32 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 8:52:21 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

 Viability outside of the mother is irrelevent. It still lives. It's not a life until it can survive outside of the womb

There's no such thing as a Pro-abortionist. But 'pubs are always trying to spin pro CHOICE that way.

Viability outside the mother is irrevelent. If it has a heartbeat then it is alive period. Unless the mother life is in danger then the only course of action is to continue with the pregnancy.

Your right I probably should use pro choice I will start when people stop saying pro-life for anti-abortion. 

Disagree. What about people on life support? They have a heartbeat, but the machine is breathing for them. Is that alive? Not in my opinion. If you disconnect the machines and they pass, then they weren't really 'alive' anymore. If the brain isn't able to tell the body what to do in order to SUSTAIN "life", then they can't live.

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:06:54 GMT -5 Opti said:

May 13, 2023 8:05:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

Why would the pregnancy kill her I said if medically necessairly. It should not be voluntairily. 

How many reasons did you miss in the abortion thread? Stand your ground law is supposedly to give a homeowner the right to defend his life and property should it become necessary.

Yet, yet

gun rights people do not make the logical leap that this is similar to voluntarily terminating a pregnancy that might kill you or might not be viable. Or in the case of most ectopic pregnancies is ALREADY DEAD!!!! No pregnancy can be carried to term in a Fallopian tube. It is usually discovered when the fetus dies because fallopian tubes have much less room than a uterus for a fetus to grow to term.

There is water breaking before a fetus is medically viable.
There is a fetus dying or dead rotting inside your body.

The laws written right now are by people like you who do not understand how often this comes up and make no easy way for exceptions to be accommodated. Your belief is so strong that the majority of these procedures are purely economic or societal choice that you miss how many are not. How many are chosen not because they wanted the pregnancy to end this way, but because it wasn't going to end well at all. 

(Just wasted 5 minutes of anger on something that probably will make no difference to you while I need to move mountains to me in RL.)

I agree there is a long list of medical reasons for termination. I support that. 

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:19:57 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

May 13, 2023 9:05:32 GMT -5 scgal said:

Viability outside the mother is irrevelent. If it has a heartbeat then it is alive period. Unless the mother life is in danger then the only course of action is to continue with the pregnancy.

Your right I probably should use pro choice I will start when people stop saying pro-life for anti-abortion. 

Disagree. What about people on life support? They have a heartbeat, but the machine is breathing for them. Is that alive? Not in my opinion. If you disconnect the machines and they pass, then they weren't really 'alive' anymore. If the brain isn't able to tell the body what to do in order to SUSTAIN "life", then they can't live.

I agree. The heart will stop beating if they are taken off life support because they cannot breath. It will cause death. They are only alive because of the machine. Outside of the mothers body there are different rules to follow and one can be taken off life support.

[moon/Laura]

May 13, 2023 9:09:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:01:35 GMT -5 daisylu said:

This is disgusting coming from a female. So a woman's body can never truly be her own? I don't see anyone making laws against men's bodies. Sperm is life, but nobody is making laws against men masturbating.

Why? Part of being a female is to reproduce if you want to. There are steps to take if you don't want to but that is nature. Female body is not just hers once there is a pregnancy. 

Masturbation is fine no coception happened, that is when it is truly just cells. 

IF YOU WANT TO. And some sometimes, birth control fails! To then force a woman to carry the fetus - that the woman took steps to prevent in the first place - is ridiculous.

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:30:52 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

May 13, 2023 9:09:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Why? Part of being a female is to reproduce if you want to. There are steps to take if you don't want to but that is nature. Female body is not just hers once there is a pregnancy. 

Masturbation is fine no coception happened, that is when it is truly just cells. 

IF YOU WANT TO. And some sometimes, birth control fails! To then force a woman to carry Wthe fetus - that the woman took steps to prevent in the first place - is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? 
Shit happens all the time

Person driving to their destination super safe driving practices along comes someone and hits them. They are a wheelchair for the rest of their life. They took the safe steps yet they have to deal with it.

[Opti]

May 13, 2023 9:09:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:01:35 GMT -5 daisylu said:

This is disgusting coming from a female. So a woman's body can never truly be her own? I don't see anyone making laws against men's bodies. Sperm is life, but nobody is making laws against men masturbating.

Why? Part of being a female is to reproduce if you want to. There are steps to take if you don't want to but that is nature. Female body is not just hers once there is a pregnancy. 

Masturbation is fine no coception happened, that is when it is truly just cells. 

Being female allows you to carry progeny hopefully to term. If you are male you only have the option to donate your sperm to the project of human being creation. If a celibate nun gets raped (happens way too often) why should she carry to term unless she wants to?

I totally disagree with your belief. It is fine if you want that for you, but unless I am already dying, it would not be a choice I would make for myself. 

And this alive/dead thing is IMO stupid. In healthcare settings live/dead can be determined by breath, blood circulation, and even brain activity. CPR is based on both breathing and blood circulation. Based on what is known for usual survival should one stop breathing. How much time there is left to bring someone back or get them hooked up to machines that can breathe for them.
Your eggs are alive. Did you try to save them during your periods, or did you let them go?

[Opti]

May 13, 2023 9:37:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:30:52 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

IF YOU WANT TO. And some sometimes, birth control fails! To then force a woman to carry Wthe fetus - that the woman took steps to prevent in the first place - is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? 
Shit happens all the time

Person driving to their destination super safe driving practices along comes someone and hits them. They are a wheelchair for the rest of their life. They took the safe steps yet they have to deal with it.

OK, so we can ask everyone here to deliver premature babies to your door because shit happens and you are willing to deal?

[Opti]

May 13, 2023 9:29:07 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:19:57 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

Disagree. What about people on life support? They have a heartbeat, but the machine is breathing for them. Is that alive? Not in my opinion. If you disconnect the machines and they pass, then they weren't really 'alive' anymore. If the brain isn't able to tell the body what to do in order to SUSTAIN "life", then they can't live.

I agree. The heart will stop beating if they are taken off life support because they cannot breath. It will cause death. They are only alive because of the machine. Outside of the mothers body there are different rules to follow and one can be taken off life support.

There is this thing called stillborn, known of since the middle ages if not way before that. This is when the fetus dies in utero or during the birth process.


 

[pulmonarymd]

May 13, 2023 9:17:22 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:09:58 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Wrong yet again. Ever heard of a little thing called brain death? These individuals have heart beats, but if the meet certain criteria they are legally dead. It is why we can use their organs for transplant.

Try again. And this time try to use your brain

Even as rude as you are. You are the "DR". I beleive you are referring to brain dead vs clinically dead. In which case if there is a heartbeat then the chld is still alive.

Can you even understand this. If you are brain dead, then legally you are dead. End of story. Doesn’t matter if you have a heart beat. In all 50 states you are dead. If you don’t agree with that too bad. The fetus is not a child. It is not alive just because it has a heartbeat. If you are too ignorant to understand that, I’m sorry

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:41:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

May 13, 2023 9:29:07 GMT -5 scgal said:

I agree. The heart will stop beating if they are taken off life support because they cannot breath. It will cause death. They are only alive because of the machine. Outside of the mothers body there are different rules to follow and one can be taken off life support.

There is this thing called stillborn, known of since the middle ages if not way before that. This is when the fetus dies in utero or during the birth process.


 

And yet I said their is medical exceptions

[Opti]

May 13, 2023 9:23:57 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:06:54 GMT -5 Opti said:

How many reasons did you miss in the abortion thread? Stand your ground law is supposedly to give a homeowner the right to defend his life and property should it become necessary.

Yet, yet

gun rights people do not make the logical leap that this is similar to voluntarily terminating a pregnancy that might kill you or might not be viable. Or in the case of most ectopic pregnancies is ALREADY DEAD!!!! No pregnancy can be carried to term in a Fallopian tube. It is usually discovered when the fetus dies because fallopian tubes have much less room than a uterus for a fetus to grow to term.

There is water breaking before a fetus is medically viable.
There is a fetus dying or dead rotting inside your body.

The laws written right now are by people like you who do not understand how often this comes up and make no easy way for exceptions to be accommodated. Your belief is so strong that the majority of these procedures are purely economic or societal choice that you miss how many are not. How many are chosen not because they wanted the pregnancy to end this way, but because it wasn't going to end well at all. 

(Just wasted 5 minutes of anger on something that probably will make no difference to you while I need to move mountains to me in RL.)

I agree there is a long list of medical reasons for termination. I support that. 

Yes, and in today's GOP laws these would need to be listed and given conditions for doctors and hospitals to be safe even following what used to be standard medical practice just before all these horrible incomplete and badly written laws were passed.

[pulmonarymd]

May 13, 2023 9:43:22 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:41:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

There is this thing called stillborn, known of since the middle ages if not way before that. This is when the fetus dies in utero or during the birth process.


 

And yet I said their is medical exceptions

Many states have or are trying to pass no exceptions laws.

The laws as currently written are vague and contradictory. Even their attorneys general don’t know what the exceptions are, or are unwilling to state what they are. What should be an entirely medical decision is now unclear.

All these women who have been harmed by these laws are lying? How imminent must the health issue be for it to be legal? None of these things are delineated in these laws. They didn’t wven ask for input from physicians before passing these laws.

Continue to think you are a kind, caring individual. You support these idiot laws and legislators

[scgal]

May 13, 2023 9:42:31 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

May 13, 2023 9:17:22 GMT -5 scgal said:

Even as rude as you are. You are the "DR". I beleive you are referring to brain dead vs clinically dead. In which case if there is a heartbeat then the chld is still alive.

Can you even understand this. If you are brain dead, then legally you are dead. End of story. Doesn’t matter if you have a heart beat. In all 50 states you are dead. If you don’t agree with that too bad. The fetus is not a child. It is not alive just because it has a heartbeat. If you are too ignorant to understand that, I’m sorry

Again with your rude little jabs. 
Now I said many, many times if it is medically necessary I can see where abortion is performed. I think a heart beating is showing life but if a dr says the baby is brain dead so "technically" dead and willing to testify to that if need be then sure proceed. 

[Opti]

May 13, 2023 9:41:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

May 13, 2023 9:29:07 GMT -5 scgal said:

I agree. The heart will stop beating if they are taken off life support because they cannot breath. It will cause death. They are only alive because of the machine. Outside of the mothers body there are different rules to follow and one can be taken off life support.

There is this thing called stillborn, known of since the middle ages if not way before that. This is when the fetus dies in utero or during the birth process.


 

The heartbeat is just like an engine of a car. Starting an engine does not guarantee the car can go anywhere. It still needs oil, gas, a battery, tires, etc. to make it useful. Heck mine has a radiator broken up that bled out coolant. No radiator, no coolant means a car that isn't really functional. Sure maybe you could push it for a mile before it died, but why?

Same thing with this silliness of the heart. Many legally dead organ donors are kept on life support until their organs are harvested for people who are living and have a chance of future life with them. The donor is brain dead and likely other kinds of dead and will not be returning as a soul in that body. Ever. Same with just heartbeats in a fetus. It means something, but way less than the right to forced birth people think it does.

Some organ donors die with a death that leaves part of the brain stem intact, much like some fetuses. The brain isn't magically going to grow back nor will surgery fix it. The body is alive, but that is not the goal of human life.

[daisylu]

May 13, 2023 9:19:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:11:41 GMT -5 daisylu said:

I got it now, you are never going to get it. Men are apparently untouchable in your eyes.

I get it just fine and willing to debate. BTW I could say the exact samething about you. What does Men being untouchable have to do with anything. 

Because women do not get pregnant on their own, yet men can walk away with very little or no consequences and you want to force women to have these children while cutting benefits to assist them.

[pulmonarymd]

May 13, 2023 9:52:54 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:42:31 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Can you even understand this. If you are brain dead, then legally you are dead. End of story. Doesn’t matter if you have a heart beat. In all 50 states you are dead. If you don’t agree with that too bad. The fetus is not a child. It is not alive just because it has a heartbeat. If you are too ignorant to understand that, I’m sorry

Again with your rude little jabs. 
Now I said many, many times if it is medically necessary I can see where abortion is performed. I think a heart beating is showing life but if a dr says the baby is brain dead so "technically" dead and willing to testify to that if need be then sure proceed. 

The part of the brain that controls breathing doesn’t fully develop until the end of the second trimester. If your neural control of breathing doesn’t work, you may indeed be brain dead. So, for consistency sake, abortions should be legal until the end of the second trimester, I.e. 24 weeks. Seems like Roe vs Wade got it right, don’t you agree

[moon/Laura]

Thank you, pulmonarymd. That was the point I was attempting to make a few posts ago. But hey...why listen to facts?!

[pulmonarymd]

A fetus cannot survive outside the uterus until 24 weeks gestation. From there until about 33 weeks, it needs aggressive medical intervention. Do, prior to 24 weeks, it is actually a parasite, in that it gets all its nutrients from a separate organism. Another reason this worshipping of a fetus is absurd

[djAdvocate]

May 13, 2023 8:14:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 12, 2023 13:35:30 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

I find it interesting that you think guns are a right but not bosy autonomy. The government should not be able to govern my body. That should be between me and my doctor. You were probably one of those people screaming "my body my choice" when covid vaccines came out too.

It is not just your body tho. Once conceived there is another life in you. 

there are many lives in me.  they have been there since near birth, perhaps before.


www.amnh.org/content/download/131241/2201972/file/human_microbiome_your_body_is_an_ecosystem_stepread1.pdf

[djAdvocate]

May 13, 2023 8:52:21 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

May 13, 2023 8:14:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

It is not just your body tho. Once conceived there is another life in you. The pro abortionist stands behind the myth of its just cells to make themselves feel better about throwing away a baby they know just who and what they are. Covid is different not only is it your body but you have the choice to protect yourself from others not just others stopping the spread. I complied but in my house I didn't force anyone from the outside to wear a mask it was their choice.

It's not a life until it can survive outside of the womb

There's no such thing as a Pro-abortionist. But 'pubs are always trying to spin pro CHOICE that way.

i will take scgal's position here and assert that it is "life".  it is just not the kind of life that we generally protect.  in fact, it is the kind of life we put in grocery stores or try to eliminate with anti-biotics, to be blunt.

[djAdvocate]

May 13, 2023 9:29:07 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 9:19:57 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

Disagree. What about people on life support? They have a heartbeat, but the machine is breathing for them. Is that alive? Not in my opinion. If you disconnect the machines and they pass, then they weren't really 'alive' anymore. If the brain isn't able to tell the body what to do in order to SUSTAIN "life", then they can't live.

I agree. The heart will stop beating if they are taken off life support because they cannot breath. It will cause death. They are only alive because of the machine. Outside of the mothers body there are different rules to follow and one can be taken off life support.

why is that, though?  they seem quite similar.  machine = uterus.
how and why are they different, in the moral or ethical sense?

[tallguy]

May 13, 2023 9:05:32 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 13, 2023 8:52:21 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

 Viability outside of the mother is irrelevent. It still lives. It's not a life until it can survive outside of the womb

There's no such thing as a Pro-abortionist. But 'pubs are always trying to spin pro CHOICE that way.

Viability outside the mother is irrevelent. If it has a heartbeat then it is alive period. Unless the mother life is in danger then the only course of action is to continue with the pregnancy.

Your right I probably should use pro choice I will start when people stop saying pro-life for anti-abortion. 

You've got the first part right.  "Pro-choice" is absolutely the correct term to be used.  For the most part, those people do not take a position on abortion itself, whether it is right or wrong, moral or immoral, life or not life.  Their only real position is that it is an issue to be decided by the woman herself, preferably in consultation with her partner and her doctor.  They are in favor of choice.  There is no such thing as "pro-abortion."  Never has been.  

The second part is very questionable.  You are seemingly saying that "pro-life" is an insult made up by that opposing side.  No.  "Pro-life" is an incorrect and nonsensical term made up by anti-abortion people to make themselves sound more noble.  The correct term is, as you seemingly agree, "anti-abortion" because they are against abortion itself.  It is not the pro-choice side that is promulgating the term "pro-life."  It is the anti-abortion side that is trying to skew the narrative to make themselves sound better.  Talk to them about it.