The Official 2024 Presidential Thread

[azucena]

Nov 20, 2024 13:07:51 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 20, 2024 10:14:30 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Prior to the laws being passed, there were no issues like this. Now there are. See the problem? And if Doctors(who are not lawyers) do not understand the law, the Governor or the Attorney General can clarify it, and state what is and is not a crime. Since scgal thinks Doctors are not all that smart, they should explain it to us like we are a 5 yo, especially since she is apparently a lawyer who passed the bar now.

No it's simple. You have a patient treat them end of story. 

So if the mother is the patient and she wants treatment, she gets it right? And if that treatment includes saving herself over an unviable fetus then she gets treated, right?

[pulmonarymd]

No it isn't. It is only simple for simple minds. Physicians cannot do something that is illegal. These bills were passed with little to no input from physicians by people who are ignorant about medicine and women's bodies. Some of these lawmakers thought you could transplant an ectopic pregnancy. A Republican candidate for Senate in MO said pregnancies from rape did not happen because a women's body "shuts that down". SO no, these laws are vague and lawyers cannot tell us what is legal.

My future DIL is an OB-GYN. In her training program, when these cases came into the ED, the hospital counsel was called to see if the intervening at that time was legal. So enough with your simplistic, bird-brained nonsense. You again have no clue as to what you are talking about when it comes to medicine and healthcare

[billisonboard]

Nov 20, 2024 13:07:51 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 20, 2024 10:14:30 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Prior to the laws being passed, there were no issues like this. Now there are. See the problem? And if Doctors(who are not lawyers) do not understand the law, the Governor or the Attorney General can clarify it, and state what is and is not a crime. Since scgal thinks Doctors are not all that smart, they should explain it to us like we are a 5 yo, especially since she is apparently a lawyer who passed the bar now.

No it's simple. You have a patient treat them end of story. 

Does "end of story" mean no government stepping in to question that treatment, it is just doctor patient?

[tbop77]

Always the same with Republicans, when their policies fail, blame someone else.  

[scgal]

Nov 20, 2024 13:23:19 GMT -5 azucena said:

Nov 20, 2024 13:07:51 GMT -5 scgal said:

No it's simple. You have a patient treat them end of story. 

So if the mother is the patient and she wants treatment, she gets it right? And if that treatment includes saving herself over an unviable fetus then she gets treated, right?

If her life is in danger treat her if not no treatment

[thyme4change]

Nov 20, 2024 7:20:26 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 19, 2024 18:44:56 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The irony is until Trump, the Republican Party was immigrant friendly. They loved the labor supply.

Just another thing that has evolved over the years, switching the concept of what is a “conservative” policy vs a “progressive” policy. This is why it is clear to me that so many of us are brainwashed because we somehow align 100% with our party. And I. 10 years when they change their mind, we will also magically change our minds - all while declaring we are free thinkers and came to the same conclusion all on our own brainpower. 🤡

Do you think there are that many people who fully align with their party's platform? I don't think I ever have and many of the one issue voters decided they did not need to. 

With 300 million people - I think there are lots of every kind of person.

[scgal]

Nov 20, 2024 13:25:58 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

No it isn't. It is only simple for simple minds. Physicians cannot do something that is illegal. These bills were passed with little to no input from physicians by people who are ignorant about medicine and women's bodies. Some of these lawmakers thought you could transplant an ectopic pregnancy. A Republican candidate for Senate in MO said pregnancies from rape did not happen because a women's body "shuts that down". SO no, these laws are vague and lawyers cannot tell us what is legal.

My future DIL is an OB-GYN. In her training program, when these cases came into the ED, the hospital counsel was called to see if the intervening at that time was legal. So enough with your simplistic, bird-brained nonsense. You again have no clue as to what you are talking about when it comes to medicine and healthcare

The laws are simple enough only a moron or someone who wants a golden parachute cannot understand them. You can bitch at me all you want all you have to do is your job. 

[thyme4change]

Nov 20, 2024 13:07:51 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 20, 2024 10:14:30 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Prior to the laws being passed, there were no issues like this. Now there are. See the problem? And if Doctors(who are not lawyers) do not understand the law, the Governor or the Attorney General can clarify it, and state what is and is not a crime. Since scgal thinks Doctors are not all that smart, they should explain it to us like we are a 5 yo, especially since she is apparently a lawyer who passed the bar now.

No it's simple. You have a patient treat them end of story. 

So if someone has the DT’s doctors should provide them illegal drugs?

[billisonboard]

Nov 20, 2024 14:31:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 20, 2024 13:23:19 GMT -5 azucena said:

So if the mother is the patient and she wants treatment, she gets it right? And if that treatment includes saving herself over an unviable fetus then she gets treated, right?

If her life is in danger treat her if not no treatment

Another clear example of black/white, either/or, this/that processing. Oh to live in such a simple world.

[pulmonarymd]

How close to death does someone need to be before the procedure is legal? That is the crux of the matter. And again the inability to understand that lawyers wrote and are interpreting the laws, and not doctors , is disappointing, but not surprising considering the source. As I said previously, the Governors or the AGs could clear up the issue in 30 seconds should they wish to. But the won't. It isn't the doctors refusing to do these procedures. It is hospital executives and counsel who refuse to sanction them for fear that some anti--abortion nut who works at the hospital will alert the authorities and cause all kinds of problems. That will interfere with being able to treat other patients, which will harm more people.

As Spock said "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". Being in court, arrested, jail, will interfere with the care of more people than the one who dies. It is all triage.

[happyhoix]

Nov 20, 2024 14:31:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 20, 2024 13:23:19 GMT -5 azucena said:

So if the mother is the patient and she wants treatment, she gets it right? And if that treatment includes saving herself over an unviable fetus then she gets treated, right?

If her life is in danger treat her if not no treatment

What if her life is not in imminent danger but if she gets no treatment within three days she will be?

Think that’s outlandish? This is why women have to sit in hospital parking lots, bleeding, waiting to get bad enough they can get treatment.

[moon/Laura]

Nov 20, 2024 9:59:47 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 19, 2024 18:45:27 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Wait, what? It’s the Doctors’ faults because recent changes in laws in some states mean that providing necessary medical care for a woman that is having a miscarriage, means that they could lose everything they have worked for? 

Yes, Doctors should do their jobs, but how does that work when the LAWS tie their hands about providing needed medical care to a pregnant girl or woman? I seriously can’t make any sense out of what you are saying. 

The laws are fairly clear. The doctors want a golden pass to do what they want. They never should have it. The should by law provide care. They shouldn't be able to hide behind the law is vague.

"Fairly clear" means it's NOT CLEAR, and that's the rethuglican's fault. They have made it such a gray area that physicians are screwed no matter what. It's amazing, though not unexpected, the lengths you'll go to in order to make it sound like the 'thuglicans are blameless. They are NOT.

[Opti]

Nov 20, 2024 14:32:14 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Nov 20, 2024 7:20:26 GMT -5 Opti said:

Do you think there are that many people who fully align with their party's platform? I don't think I ever have and many of the one issue voters decided they did not need to. 

With 300 million people - I think there are lots of every kind of person.

True. 

[Opti]

Nov 20, 2024 14:34:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 20, 2024 13:25:58 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

No it isn't. It is only simple for simple minds. Physicians cannot do something that is illegal. These bills were passed with little to no input from physicians by people who are ignorant about medicine and women's bodies. Some of these lawmakers thought you could transplant an ectopic pregnancy. A Republican candidate for Senate in MO said pregnancies from rape did not happen because a women's body "shuts that down". SO no, these laws are vague and lawyers cannot tell us what is legal.

My future DIL is an OB-GYN. In her training program, when these cases came into the ED, the hospital counsel was called to see if the intervening at that time was legal. So enough with your simplistic, bird-brained nonsense. You again have no clue as to what you are talking about when it comes to medicine and healthcare

The laws are simple enough only a moron or someone who wants a golden parachute cannot understand them. You can bitch at me all you want all you have to do is your job. 

If that law was as simple as you way, you would have noticed immediately everyone is put in the position of waiting for an unviable fetus to die before treating the mother. I also wish you and PMD weren't oil and water. He lives and practices in NY so Texas type laws aren't in NY.

The golden parachute reference makes no sense. 

[Pink Cashmere]

Nov 20, 2024 9:59:47 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 19, 2024 18:45:27 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Wait, what? It’s the Doctors’ faults because recent changes in laws in some states mean that providing necessary medical care for a woman that is having a miscarriage, means that they could lose everything they have worked for? 

Yes, Doctors should do their jobs, but how does that work when the LAWS tie their hands about providing needed medical care to a pregnant girl or woman? I seriously can’t make any sense out of what you are saying. 

The laws are fairly clear. The doctors want a golden pass to do what they want. They never should have it. The should by law provide care. They shouldn't be able to hide behind the law is vague.

No, the Doctors want to be able to use the knowledge and skills they learned during years of being educated and their experience as qualified professionals, to provide necessary medical care to the patients that need their help.

The laws we are discussing, literally prevent them from doing that when it involves a pregnant girl or woman, without facing  legal repercussions. 

[Opti]

Scgal, I think you are missing the point in that many women would prefer to live to try again instead of dying because of an unviable fetus or failure like water breaking weeks too soon. Its not about what the doctors want to do. Its about what the patient's want to do and the medical advice and services that are available to them. Children are losing their mothers to these bad laws.

[seriousthistime]

What happens when the standard of care and the law conflict?  

It is far from simple. To say as much reflects willful ignorance. 

[Pink Cashmere]

Nov 20, 2024 18:22:50 GMT -5 Opti said:

Scgal, I think you are missing the point in that many women would prefer to live to try again instead of dying because of an unviable fetus or failure like water breaking weeks too soon. It’s not about what the doctors want to do. It’s about what the patient's want to do and the medical advice and services that are available to them. Children are losing their mothers to these bad laws.

I mostly ignore scgal’s posts and tend not to engage with her (him? Idk) because I think she posts a lot of things just  to try to get a reaction. And when I do engage, I try to do it politely and not in an argumentative way, in an effort to try to get a genuine, sensible answer from her/him. At least that’s what I think I do, if my memory serves me correctly lol.

I don’t believe scgal is missing anything, and not the point you made. I think we give her/him what she wants when we fall for trying to counter what she/he posts, which is why I try to refrain. 

I most certainly do not get the impression that he/she is willing to engage in honest conversation with an open mind, willing to learn something or entertain perspectives that are different from the way he/she automatically thinks, as food for thought, given the way he/she posts. 

[empress of self-improvement]

Nov 20, 2024 18:29:46 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

What happens when the standard of care and the law conflict?  

It is far from simple. To say as much reflects willful ignorance. 

Think of who you're talking about.

[Tennesseer]

[empress of self-improvement]

Nov 20, 2024 20:52:33 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

And that right there is probably why I will now stay single for the rest of my life.

[scgal]

What if's, what if's, What ifs, how about this, how about that. Bottom line is we went 50 years of women using abortions as birth control. A literal ok to kill babies. Now we are trying to protect them. Once a woman is pregnant there is no body autonomy. That body is now a shared body. 

The roe law should never have been passed. I would like abortion outlawed but this is the best it is going to be. You don't like it get it changed fortunately it will probably take another 50 years. 

You want it so Dr's have it easy fine make elective abortion clinics outlawed and the mothers prosecutable who aborts their babies for birth control. 

[scgal]

Nov 20, 2024 20:52:33 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Hell yea God Bless America.

[Opti]

Nov 21, 2024 6:30:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

What if's, what if's, What ifs, how about this, how about that. Bottom line is we went 50 years of women using abortions as birth control. A literal ok to kill babies. Now we are trying to protect them. Once a woman is pregnant there is no body autonomy. That body is now a shared body. 

The roe law should never have been passed. I would like abortion outlawed but this is the best it is going to be. You don't like it get it changed fortunately it will probably take another 50 years. 

You want it so Dr's have it easy fine make elective abortion clinics outlawed and the mothers prosecutable who aborts their babies for birth control. 

spontaneous abortions happen by God and sometimes they don't expel the fetus. And the latter is going to happen when the fetus is larger when something goes wrong. Texas already ranks 50th in the US for healthcare of women and infants. I find it sick you want it to be worse.

There is nothing noble or baby saving by letting a fetus die over days in the womb because it is not viable. It should be a sin and a crime to let this happen. I think anyone who believes as you do should have to sponsor at least one fetus with issues from pregnancy to possibly the end of its life. So if God finds one for you, is your preference a meth baby or some other serious impairment? 

[minnesotapaintlady]

Any Game of Thrones fans?

[billisonboard]

Nov 21, 2024 6:31:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 20, 2024 20:52:33 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Hell yea God Bless America.

There is no connection between what is printed on the shirts and what you typed.

[teen persuasion]

Nov 20, 2024 13:07:51 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 20, 2024 10:14:30 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Prior to the laws being passed, there were no issues like this. Now there are. See the problem? And if Doctors(who are not lawyers) do not understand the law, the Governor or the Attorney General can clarify it, and state what is and is not a crime. Since scgal thinks Doctors are not all that smart, they should explain it to us like we are a 5 yo, especially since she is apparently a lawyer who passed the bar now.

No it's simple. You have a patient treat them end of story. 

Wait, what? Patients now need to treat other patients?

 Let's eat grandma!  vs Let's eat, grandma!
Punctuation saves lives...

[dondubble]

Nov 20, 2024 18:22:50 GMT -5 Opti said:

Scgal, I think you are missing the point in that many women would prefer to live to try again instead of dying because of an unviable fetus or failure like water breaking weeks too soon. Its not about what the doctors want to do. Its about what the patient's want to do and the medical advice and services that are available to them. Children are losing their mothers to these bad laws.

So true. Donnadub had her water break and drain out at a Mariner’s opening night. 16 weeks pregnant. Fortunately the draconian laws scgal supports were not in effect then. She didn’t have to just sit around waiting to see who might die first, her or the fetus. So she was able to get a D&E.

Subsequently she was able to birth the Dubettes and they are thriving young women staunchly pro choice.

[grumpyhermit]

Nov 20, 2024 19:47:28 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Nov 20, 2024 18:22:50 GMT -5 Opti said:

Scgal, I think you are missing the point in that many women would prefer to live to try again instead of dying because of an unviable fetus or failure like water breaking weeks too soon. It’s not about what the doctors want to do. It’s about what the patient's want to do and the medical advice and services that are available to them. Children are losing their mothers to these bad laws.

I mostly ignore scgal’s posts and tend not to engage with her (him? Idk) because I think she posts a lot of things just  to try to get a reaction. And when I do engage, I try to do it politely and not in an argumentative way, in an effort to try to get a genuine, sensible answer from her/him. At least that’s what I think I do, if my memory serves me correctly lol.

I don’t believe scgal is missing anything, and not the point you made. I think we give her/him what she wants when we fall for trying to counter what she/he posts, which is why I try to refrain. 

I most certainly do not get the impression that he/she is willing to engage in honest conversation with an open mind, willing to learn something or entertain perspectives that are different from the way he/she automatically thinks, as food for thought, given the way he/she posts. 

I finally blocked them, and it was the best decision. It has been clear to me for a while that some people on this board are either outrage trolls, or so ideologically set, that any attempt to change their mind is fruitless.

Based on the quality of the avg response from this poster, I know which category I fit them into.

[pulmonarymd]

My wife had 2 second trimester fetal demises and an amniotic fluid leak at 19 weeks. Needed a D and E as well. Needed to find a community physician to do it and give emergency privileges to do it, because one of the premier medical schools in the country did not have someone on staff who knew how to perform one. That is the future we are looking at when my generation of physicians retire. The skills will disappear and no one will be able to do them. Patients will suffer as a result. But everything is hunky dory according to conservatives