How to Fix Public Education

[Deleted]

We got into a tangential discussion on this in the thread on the effect of wealth and I'd like to start a separate thread.  I appreciated the respectful tone of the discussion and the valid point that I don't have first-hand experience with the public school system anymore other than as a taxpayer.  Here are some of my thoughts:

1.  I DO believe in public education.  For the majority of kids it's a reasonable option and we need an educated workforce.  I'm willing to support it with my tax dollars even though I don't have kids in the system.

2.  I believe that partial subsidy of kids going to alternative schools (charter schools or private schools) won't "gut" the public system.  Even if we gave parents half the amount the state spends per kid to use towards another school (and maybe less depending on income), the public schools would be left more per pupil on average and some kids could go to schools that would serve them better.  Use the same standardized testing as used in the public schools to make sure the alternative schools are performing.

3.  While we are required to provide everyone with a taxpayer-funded education in this country, that does not mean it has to be in the classroom.  If it was OK to send kids home and require on-line instruction during COVID, why not do that with kids who are disruptive rather than letting them stay in classrooms where they interfere with kids who want to learn?  Our school system pays "school bus attendants" to keep the kids behaving on the bus.  If kids are misbehaving on the bus, why can't we revoke bus privileges and maybe require them to get on-line instruction?  

I know.. the troubled kids who are least motivated aren't going to do great with on-line instruction but right now they're in the classroom interfering with the work of teachers and students.  Why should they be allowed to drag the system down?

4.  School boards wanting to float a bond issue for Taj Mahal projects need to present two options.  Background:  my son's HS district in 2003 proposed a $17 million bond issue to make improvements to the 2 high schools including a "state-of-the-art darkroom", "greatly-enhanced preforming arts spaces" and $1 million in new landscaping.  And of course they needed money for neglected (excuse me, "deferred") maintenance.  So, your choice was vote No and there would be no money for the necessary work or vote Yes and get all the frills.  Make a case for the frills and I'll vote for it but give me an option I'm more likely to approve if I don't want the frills so the necessary work can get done.

Anything else?

[nidena]

I don't have any children and so don't have any skin in the game in that respect but I do think that there isn't a one-size-fits method for improving schools and helping children succeed.  Now, I know this may be an obvious statement but children who come from wealth (or not poverty) are going to be recipients of parenting styles that are completely different from that of a child who DOES come from poverty.  And that parenting style will dictate how they learn and intake information.

There is a great book from where I get this information and make this statement.  It's called A Framework for Understanding Poverty (amazon link)

The information in that book would be just as useful in that Wealth Immorality thread as here because it goes into detail about how we think if we're in Poverty, Middle Class, or Wealthy.  I, personally, am a Middle Class thinker.  And it's not just our thinking but our behaviors, our language, so many things.

But I think one way to start improving things is to start paying educators better because, without them, we have no other fields of study.  In Indiana, there is a shortage of more than 2000.  I'm sure that is similar across the country.  But let's get our states to start pretending that teachers were always white men and pay them like such rather than discounting them for their gender and race as has been happening since formal teaching came to be.

[billisonboard]

Your thread title starts the discussion with an assumption I don't accept. Public Education isn't broken. It is doing a better job of educating more of the total population of school aged Americans than at any time in the past. I do think it is legitimate and necessary to discuss ways to further improve it.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 8:28:04 GMT -5 nidena said:

But I think one way to start improving things is to start paying educators better because, without them, we have no other fields of study.  In Indiana, there is a shortage of more than 2000.  I'm sure that is similar across the country.  But let's get our states to start pretending that teachers were always white men and pay them like such rather than discounting them for their gender and race as has been happening since formal teaching came to be.

More money would help (I've interviewed more than my share of disgruntled Math teachers who wanted to become actuaries and have hired a few) but what about the classroom atmosphere and the bureaucracy and the threats of (and actual) violence against teachers by students?  You couldn't pay me enough to be a classroom teacher right now.

Jul 25, 2022 8:32:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Your thread title starts the discussion with an assumption I don't accept. Public Education isn't broken. It is doing a better job of educating more of the total population of school aged Americans than at any time in the past. I do think it is legitimate and necessary to discuss ways to further improve it.

In some areas I think it is broken. I've lived in excellent (for the majority of kids) school districts and now I live in a so-so district. So much depends on having supportive, engaged parents and we have a higher percent of poverty, a lower share of adults with college degrees more and single-parent households here. We provide breakfast and lunch AND a "free after-school meal" in the local grade school. One year they raffled off two new cars for HS kids who had attended more than 90% of the time. (A school board member told me the state gave them more $$ because of improved attendance so that paid for the cars.) Another local system with a high % of kids living in poverty has a giant Back-t-School drive to get supplies for kids who come to school without anything.

What can we do to take care of these kids and their families?

[giramomma]

Jul 25, 2022 8:32:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Your thread title starts the discussion with an assumption I don't accept. Public Education isn't broken. It is doing a better job of educating more of the total population of school aged Americans than at any time in the past. I do think it is legitimate and necessary to discuss ways to further improve it.

I think that depends on where you live and the color of your skin.

Milwaukee's  high school graduation rate is under 70%. Much of that is due to kiddos of color.

It lags the state substantially.

My city (Madison) still hasn't figured out how to teach at risk kids in the 20 years I've lived here. At our neighborhood elementary school, the goal was to get like 25% of the 4th grade kids to read and do math at grade level less than 10 years ago. Kids' performance hasn't improved much since that goal came out. But, hey, at least it's not a failing school anymore.

The poverty rate in our neighborhood school is 70%. About 35% of the kids at the school are ELL learners.

Our district is shocked (really, shocked like they had no idea the outcome would be good), when some middle school students went from reading far below average to reading at grade level with intensive, one-on-one support over the course of a year. I think most of us non-teacher type lay people would be like "well, duh. You don't need to pay for a study to come to that conclusion."

Personally, I don't think my district does a good job of educating everyone.

I'm sure WI isn't the only state with such issues.

[TheOtherMe]

As a taxpayer concerned about the future of the country, I do have skin in the game.

My nephew, who was a math teacher, left the profession.  It was in part due to the pay and lack of respect from students and parents.  In his case, it was because of his concussion issues.  At a previous job, he had been viciously attacked by a student and my nephew will pay for his injuries for the rest of his life.  It happened at a private behavioral school, who said they would fire him if he pressed charges.  

He and another teacher were attacked in the spring after both had turned in their resignations.  They both filed police reports.

In his case, it happened at a behavioral school, but the same thing happens in public schools.  Private schools tend to keep those things very quiet unless a weapon is involved.

One of the reasons my sister finally pulled the trigger on retirement was the parents who thought their precious 3 and 4 year olds never did anything wrong.  She taught pre-K.  She said there was never anything worse happening in the classroom from the kid side.  It was from the parent side.

[giramomma]

So, in our school district, in order to make sure graduation rates increase, "they" decided to put a floor on what students can earn.

Meaning, a student can not show up, not do the work, and they will still get a 50% in all of their classes.

The thought process is, if at some point, the kids do decide to show up and do the work, it is easier to go from 50-60% than it is from 0-60%.

Which is fine. But, let's face it. The kids getting 0's aren't four year college material. Or likely even 2 year college material. There is a GPA requirement for our tech college in town..and it is higher than 1.0.

How does giving a kid partial credit for adhering to 0 expectations going to help them in the real world?

Because in the work world I live in, and DS lives in, if you don't show up for work, you get 0 pay. You don't get 50% of your pay. If you pay 0 towards your rent bill, you don't have a place to live. The landlord doesn't just give you half an apartment and hope that you get it together at some point in the future.

[billisonboard]

2.  I believe that partial subsidy of kids going to alternative schools (charter schools or private schools) won't "gut" the public system.  Even if we gave parents half the amount the state spends per kid to use towards another school (and maybe less depending on income), the public schools would be left more per pupil on average and some kids could go to schools that would serve them better.  Use the same standardized testing as used in the public schools to make sure the alternative schools are performing.

I support public schools which have varied structures. I don't think it is appropriate nor valuable to identify and educate individuals in various ways and then use one method (particularly a standardized test) to measure success.

[nidena]

I'd like to see schools build breakfast and lunch into the curriculum for ALL students.  Do away with this "free breakfast" idea and just call it "breakfast" with no need to buy breakfast tickets or however it works nowadays.  Don't penalize the children because their parents can't afford to pay for breakfast at the school.  They probably can't afford to pay for it at home either since, in many cases of poverty, it's rent or food, utilities or food, transportation to work or food.

And make it a real breakfast with some protein in it not this cereal crap that digest in an hour.  From everything that I've read, eating in the morning goes a long way towards staying awake and not acting out.

And if the states are anything like Indiana, they can't use the "it's too expensive" copout: Indiana’s surging tax collections over the past year have pushed state government’s budget surplus up more than 50% to about $6.1 billion.  I will gladly pay more in property taxes if it means that children don't grow up to be hellions.

[billisonboard]

Jul 25, 2022 8:46:40 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Jul 25, 2022 8:32:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Your thread title starts the discussion with an assumption I don't accept. Public Education isn't broken. It is doing a better job of educating more of the total population of school aged Americans than at any time in the past. I do think it is legitimate and necessary to discuss ways to further improve it.

I think that depends on where you live and the color of your skin.

Milwaukee's  high school graduation rate is under 70%. Much of that is due to kiddos of color.

It lags the state substantially.

My city (Madison) still hasn't figured out how to teach at risk kids in the 20 years I've lived here. At our neighborhood elementary school, the goal was to get like 25% of the 4th grade kids to read and do math at grade level less than 10 years ago. Kids' performance hasn't improved much since that goal came out. But, hey, at least it's not a failing school anymore.

The poverty rate in our neighborhood school is 70%. About 35% of the kids at the school are ELL learners.

Our district is shocked (really, shocked like they had no idea the outcome would be good), when some middle school students went from reading far below average to reading at grade level with intensive, one-on-one support over the course of a year. I think most of us non-teacher type lay people would be like "well, duh. You don't need to pay for a study to come to that conclusion."

Personally, I don't think my district does a good job of educating everyone.

I'm sure WI isn't the only state with such issues.

Was there a point at any time in the past that the graduation rate was higher than 70%?

[teen persuasion]

Jul 25, 2022 7:38:59 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

 ...

2.  I believe that partial subsidy of kids going to alternative schools (charter schools or private schools) won't "gut" the public system.  Even if we gave parents half the amount the state spends per kid to use towards another school (and maybe less depending on income), the public schools would be left more per pupil on average and some kids could go to schools that would serve them better.  Use the same standardized testing as used in the public schools to make sure the alternative schools are performing.

3.  While we are required to provide everyone with a taxpayer-funded education in this country, that does not mean it has to be in the classroom.  If it was OK to send kids home and require on-line instruction during COVID, why not do that with kids who are disruptive rather than letting them stay in classrooms where they interfere with kids who want to learn?  Our school system pays "school bus attendants" to keep the kids behaving on the bus.  If kids are misbehaving on the bus, why can't we revoke bus privileges and maybe require them to get on-line instruction?  

I know.. the troubled kids who are least motivated aren't going to do great with on-line instruction but right now they're in the classroom interfering with the work of teachers and students.  Why should they be allowed to drag the system down?

4.  School boards wanting to float a bond issue for Taj Mahal projects need to present two options.  Background:  my son's HS district in 2003 proposed a $17 million bond issue to make improvements to the 2 high schools including a "state-of-the-art darkroom", "greatly-enhanced preforming arts spaces" and $1 million in new landscaping.  And of course they needed money for neglected (excuse me, "deferred") maintenance.  So, your choice was vote No and there would be no money for the necessary work or vote Yes and get all the frills.  Make a case for the frills and I'll vote for it but give me an option I'm more likely to approve if I don't want the frills so the necessary work can get done.

Anything else?

That's not what alternative schools means, at least in NY.  DH taught in alternative schools.  He was never in a school district, never had access to the state teacher's pension system.  We worked for private agencies, each with a campus school and cottages for the resident students (placed there by the court system). There was also a "day" side to the schools (vs the residential) for local students bussed in daily by their "home" districts. DH has taught on both the residential and day sides at different times. Each year he had restraint training - how to handle physically restraining students when necessary to prevent them injuring themselves or others. It was a good day when there were zero restraints.

One of his previous employers was trying to get approval to build a secure wing, to house the sexual offenders away from the others who might be victimized by them. When the local community learned about the plans, they freaked about the idea of this in their backyard, and nixed the whole idea. What no one outside the agency learned, but DH and everyone inside the agency knew: those sexual offenders were ALREADY residents at the agency, always had been. The agency wanted approval to make things more secure, and they were denied because of misguided NIMBY.


That's what "alternative school" means in educational circles, not charter or private.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 9:18:01 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

That's not what alternative schools means, at least in NY.  DH taught in alternative schools.  He was never in a school district, never had access to the state teacher's pension system.  We worked for private agencies, each with a campus school and cottages for the resident students (placed there by the court system). There was also a "day" side to the schools (vs the residential) for local students bussed in daily by their "home" districts.

<snip>

That's what "alternative school" means in educational circles, not charter or private.

Thanks- that's why I added the section in parentheses in my post, to note that I was speaking of alternatives to the mainstream public school in general.

[geenamercile]

Just some quick thoughts to you points, 

2) The average per pupil is what people use but it is not what each individual student cost.  So would parents receive half of what their kid their kid cost to educate or would it be a blanket amount for each student?  Kids with disabilities cost more to educate, kids that take the dual enrollment classes cost more to educate, kids that take the trade programs cost more to educate.  

3)  Actually this is already done on many different levels and has been for years.  Sometimes these kids are put into alternative schools, some kids are placed on homebound/home based instruction (I actually have worked with 3 different students in these programs).  These programs do tend to make the kids more expensive to educate as well, as they cost more.  When I worked at the alternative school, all of our kids were placed and paid for by their home districts, none were private pay.  We are talking about tuition that was between 1.5K to 2K a week for each of these kids.  There is a process for kids to be placed in these programs, and districts do treat it as a last resort because of the cost.  There is also the issue of equality and that the kids are getting the same level of education at home/in these programs as they are too their counter parts physically in school.  That opens up whole other law suites for a district to worry about. 

At the same time, I am one of those teachers who work with the kids with behavioral problems that you seem to be focused on.  Some of them are sped, some are 504s, some of them are just because of home life.  5 out of my 6 classes are where I co-teach in another classroom for English.  For English and Math in the school I work in co-teachers are certified teachers, in science and history classes teachers share aids, elective classes have no aid for these students.  Yes there is a difference in amount of disruptive behaviors on these levels.           
 

4) I do agree with you some on this point, I do think things should have an educational justification.  I also think schools have just gotten to big, sure it is cheaper over all to build a large high school with 3K kids in it vs 3 smaller ones with 1K, but from the  educational, social and behavioral aspects I have seen the larger schools seem to allow more problems, more kids falling through the cracks, less ability for teachers to build personal relationships with students.  Class sizes make a difference too, 20 vs 30 kids in a class can make a huge difference.  And I do believe that personal relationships is one of the key factors in students doing well.  We need to remember that middle school students and even high school students are still kids, and they do not need schools that feel more like college campus then not. 



          

[billisonboard]

3.  While we are required to provide everyone with a taxpayer-funded education in this country, that does not mean it has to be in the classroom.  If it was OK to send kids home and require on-line instruction during COVID, why not do that with kids who are disruptive rather than letting them stay in classrooms where they interfere with kids who want to learn?  Our school system pays "school bus attendants" to keep the kids behaving on the bus.  If kids are misbehaving on the bus, why can't we revoke bus privileges and maybe require them to get on-line instruction?  

I know.. the troubled kids who are least motivated aren't going to do great with on-line instruction but right now they're in the classroom interfering with the work of teachers and students.  Why should they be allowed to drag the system down?

Back when I was working with students with behavior disorders, I would frequently find myself explaining that when the student was at school I could work to improve their behaviors. When the student was out of school, there was no opportunity for me to do anything. In fact, considering the home environment most of them lived in, it set back any progress I had made when they were not at school. (Not to mention the trouble they would cause roaming the streets unsupervised.)

[geenamercile]

Jul 25, 2022 9:18:01 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Jul 25, 2022 7:38:59 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

That's not what alternative schools means, at least in NY.  DH taught in alternative schools.  He was never in a school district, never had access to the state teacher's pension system.  We worked for private agencies, each with a campus school and cottages for the resident students (placed there by the court system). There was also a "day" side to the schools (vs the residential) for local students bussed in daily by their "home" districts. DH has taught on both the residential and day sides at different times. Each year he had restraint training - how to handle physically restraining students when necessary to prevent them injuring themselves or others. It was a good day when there were zero restraints.

One of his previous employers was trying to get approval to build a secure wing, to house the sexual offenders away from the others who might be victimized by them. When the local community learned about the plans, they freaked about the idea of this in their backyard, and nixed the whole idea. What no one outside the agency learned, but DH and everyone inside the agency knew: those sexual offenders were ALREADY residents at the agency, always had been. The agency wanted approval to make things more secure, and they were denied because of misguided NIMBY.


That's what "alternative school" means in educational circles, not charter or private.

My district had both, we have alternative schools that are run by the district and also private that kids are sent to as well similar to the one your DH worked in.  The one I worked in that I posted about before was a private and my experience was similar to your DH´s.  The district ones here are like a step between normal schools and the private ones.  The district ones have their own campus, and the employees have the same access to benefits as any other district teacher.  But they have also have a 1:10 ratio of teacher to students, so spots are limited in them.    

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Wow. So many assumptions by people* who have minuscule knowledge of public education--besides the fact that public education is run by each state which--if my lowly public school brain remembers correctly--means there are at least 50 ways of doing things. 

Please, keyboard warriors, continue to assume that you have any idea what some of us have spent our entire post-secondary education and professional lives on. Assume that we aren't trying to make improvements. That we embrace the status quo. That we don't read/research about best practices. That we intentionally perpetuate the myths you're listing here and are smacked upside the head with by countless social media wildfires. That the legislatures of each state and the US Department of Education would never implement unfunded mandates without asking actual educators. That we don't just love being viewed as lazy imbeciles but actually are lazy imbeciles. Shall I text my husband about his ineptitude? I can 't tell him to his face because he went to work at 6:30 this morning. 

I'll go now, so that I can start the 15 to 20 hours per week I've spending on my upcoming job for my upcoming contract that does not begin until August 11--as in I'm not actually getting a July paycheck. 

I'll return to your myriad, fruitful suggestions for how to fix me and my work. 

But yes, so glad you all want to be respectful and want me to sit respectfully in the corner while I listen to your absolute wisdom of one-sentence solutions. 


*not directed to everyone

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 9:23:26 GMT -5 geenamercile said:

<snip>

I do agree with you some on this point, I do think things should have an educational justification.  I also think schools have just gotten too big, sure it is cheaper over all to build a large high school with 3K kids in it vs 3 smaller ones with 1K, but from the  educational, social and behavioral aspects I have seen the larger schools seem to allow more problems, more kids falling through the cracks, less ability for teachers to build personal relationships with students.  Class sizes make a difference too, 20 vs 30 kids in a class can make a huge difference.  And I do believe that personal relationships is one of the key factors in students doing well.  We need to remember that middle school students and even high school students are still kids, and they do not need schools that feel more like college campus then not. 

Amen to that.  I don't like the trend towards mega-schools. They promise wider academic offerings and more activities but they also have more layers of bureaucracy and since the kids are coming in from a wider radius they have to get up earlier, spend more time on the bus and get home later.  My HS graduating class was something like 120.  Same for DS.  I knew far more of my classmates and their parents and so did he, compared to a school with 500 kids in each grade. 

The HS he would have attended had a "World languages" department that included no languages from Asia or Africa and a fancy language lab that one student told me during their open house that their teacher never used because she didn't know how to work the equipment.

[billisonboard]

4.  School boards wanting to float a bond issue for Taj Mahal projects need to present two options.  Background:  my son's HS district in 2003 proposed a $17 million bond issue to make improvements to the 2 high schools including a "state-of-the-art darkroom", "greatly-enhanced preforming arts spaces" and $1 million in new landscaping.  And of course they needed money for neglected (excuse me, "deferred") maintenance.  So, your choice was vote No and there would be no money for the necessary work or vote Yes and get all the frills.  Make a case for the frills and I'll vote for it but give me an option I'm more likely to approve if I don't want the frills so the necessary work can get done.

I take it you have never been a part of the process of determining what to present for a public vote. School Boards present the fuller option because they deliberate and decide that they can successfully make the case for it. If they end up being wrong, they will trim it back and submit it for a new vote.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 25, 2022 9:21:38 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 9:18:01 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

That's not what alternative schools means, at least in NY.  DH taught in alternative schools.  He was never in a school district, never had access to the state teacher's pension system.  We worked for private agencies, each with a campus school and cottages for the resident students (placed there by the court system). There was also a "day" side to the schools (vs the residential) for local students bussed in daily by their "home" districts.

<snip>

That's what "alternative school" means in educational circles, not charter or private.

Thanks- that's why I added the section in parentheses in my post, to note that I was speaking of alternatives to the mainstream public school in general.

Huh. My bad. My three years as an alternative high school principal and eight credits of doctoral courses that overwhelmed my puny educator brain on how the US doesn't have a set definition of "alternative education" clearly succumb to your parenthetical notations.

[giramomma]

Jul 25, 2022 9:09:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 25, 2022 8:46:40 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I think that depends on where you live and the color of your skin.

Milwaukee's  high school graduation rate is under 70%. Much of that is due to kiddos of color.

It lags the state substantially.

My city (Madison) still hasn't figured out how to teach at risk kids in the 20 years I've lived here. At our neighborhood elementary school, the goal was to get like 25% of the 4th grade kids to read and do math at grade level less than 10 years ago. Kids' performance hasn't improved much since that goal came out. But, hey, at least it's not a failing school anymore.

The poverty rate in our neighborhood school is 70%. About 35% of the kids at the school are ELL learners.

Our district is shocked (really, shocked like they had no idea the outcome would be good), when some middle school students went from reading far below average to reading at grade level with intensive, one-on-one support over the course of a year. I think most of us non-teacher type lay people would be like "well, duh. You don't need to pay for a study to come to that conclusion."

Personally, I don't think my district does a good job of educating everyone.

I'm sure WI isn't the only state with such issues.

Was there a point at any time in the past that the graduation rate was higher than 70%?

Honestly, I don't know. I don't have time to look up graduation rates from 1970 or before.

Someone with better knowledge of history will know exactly when manufacturing was no longer a thing in Milwaukee. When manufacturing went away, that's when things started getting bad in Milwaukee.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 25, 2022 9:09:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 25, 2022 8:46:40 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I think that depends on where you live and the color of your skin.

Milwaukee's  high school graduation rate is under 70%. Much of that is due to kiddos of color.

It lags the state substantially.

My city (Madison) still hasn't figured out how to teach at risk kids in the 20 years I've lived here. At our neighborhood elementary school, the goal was to get like 25% of the 4th grade kids to read and do math at grade level less than 10 years ago. Kids' performance hasn't improved much since that goal came out. But, hey, at least it's not a failing school anymore.

The poverty rate in our neighborhood school is 70%. About 35% of the kids at the school are ELL learners.

Our district is shocked (really, shocked like they had no idea the outcome would be good), when some middle school students went from reading far below average to reading at grade level with intensive, one-on-one support over the course of a year. I think most of us non-teacher type lay people would be like "well, duh. You don't need to pay for a study to come to that conclusion."

Personally, I don't think my district does a good job of educating everyone.

I'm sure WI isn't the only state with such issues.

Was there a point at any time in the past that the graduation rate was higher than 70%?

Or...or...what if we even considered what "graduation" means? What? Different states have different graduation requirements?
No, why would we look at that. 


Okay. I'm walking away now. This is not what I should be doing. 

[giramomma]

Jul 25, 2022 9:37:08 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 9:23:26 GMT -5 geenamercile said:

<snip>

I do agree with you some on this point, I do think things should have an educational justification.  I also think schools have just gotten too big, sure it is cheaper over all to build a large high school with 3K kids in it vs 3 smaller ones with 1K, but from the  educational, social and behavioral aspects I have seen the larger schools seem to allow more problems, more kids falling through the cracks, less ability for teachers to build personal relationships with students.  Class sizes make a difference too, 20 vs 30 kids in a class can make a huge difference.  And I do believe that personal relationships is one of the key factors in students doing well.  We need to remember that middle school students and even high school students are still kids, and they do not need schools that feel more like college campus then not. 

Amen to that.  I don't like the trend towards mega-schools. They promise wider academic offerings and more activities but they also have more layers of bureaucracy and since the kids are coming in from a wider radius they have to get up earlier, spend more time on the bus and get home later.  My HS graduating class was something like 120.  Same for DS.  I knew far more of my classmates and their parents and so did he, compared to a school with 500 kids in each grade. 

The HS he would have attended had a "World languages" department that included no languages from Asia or Africa and a fancy language lab that one student told me during their open house that their teacher never used because she didn't know how to work the equipment.

How big of a city did you live in?

My city is 250K. There are four traditional high schools and two alternative ones. There are approximately 8K high school students. Five of the 6 high schools have their own building, one is rented out.

If there were 500 kids in each high school, the district would need 16 high schools. There's barely enough money to take care of the 5 high schools that currently exist.

[billisonboard]

Jul 25, 2022 9:36:01 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Wow. So many assumptions by people* who have minuscule knowledge of public education--besides the fact that public education is run by each state which--if my lowly public school brain remembers correctly--means there are at least 50 ways of doing things. 

Please, keyboard warriors, continue to assume that you have any idea what some of us have spent our entire post-secondary education and professional lives on. Assume that we aren't trying to make improvements. That we embrace the status quo. That we don't read/research about best practices. That we intentionally perpetuate the myths you're listing here and are smacked upside the head with by countless social media wildfires. That the legislatures of each state and the US Department of Education would never implement unfunded mandates without asking actual educators. That we don't just love being viewed as lazy imbeciles but actually are lazy imbeciles. Shall I text my husband about his ineptitude? I can 't tell him to his face because he went to work at 6:30 this morning. 

I'll go now, so that I can start the 15 to 20 hours per week I've spending on my upcoming job for my upcoming contract that does not begin until August 11--as in I'm not actually getting a July paycheck. 

I'll return to your myriad, fruitful suggestions for how to fix me and my work. 

But yes, so glad you all want to be respectful and want me to sit respectfully in the corner while I listen to your absolute wisdom of one-sentence solutions. 


*not directed to everyone

Spoiler alert coming.

For most of us, we spent 12/13 years attending school. Many sent our are sending children to school. How can we not be experts concerning schools.

Small print notice: the preceeding comment was

[stillmovingforward]

Hmm, my parent was a middle school teacher of a poverty inner-city school. He got the tough kids due to his former life in the military and knew how to de-escalate situations.

2 of mine were those trouble kids people speak of. Several more were my foster kids. The foster kids were SAFER at school then at home until they entered 'the system'. All of these kids had been food insecure (literally starved) at some point in life. School gave them food.

All my kids got a good education at our school. Could have been better, could have been a lot worse. With what I gave the district, they did an excellent job.

The best way to improve schools? Work on supporting the at-risk families instead of leaving the school to clean up the mess.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 9:39:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I take it you have never been a part of the process of determining what to present for a public vote. School Boards present the fuller option because they deliberate and decide that they can successfully make the case for it. If they end up being wrong, they will trim it back and submit it for a new vote.

No, I haven't. I vote in every election but I do my research a few days ahead of time and make my decisions. If there's not enough info on the internet (particularly true for candidates for local office) I don't vote for the person or issue.

I still don't like being tied into a choice of "Vote for the Taj Mahal or we won't have any money to do anything". You can still make a case for the Taj Mahal and I might vote for it.

A bit unrelated but my town has an issue to borrow about $50 million over the next 10 years, in $10 million tranches every 2 years, to improve roads. Our town is just under 10 square miles but a lot of work is needed. I'd happily vote for a $10 million bond issue immediately and make my decision on a second $10 million issue based on what they accomplish with the first $10 million. Not a choice, of course, and I may vote against giving them carte blanche to borrow that much over 10 years for a town of only about 30,000 people with no idea how effectively they'll deploy it.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 25, 2022 9:53:16 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Hmm, my parent was a middle school teacher of a poverty inner-city school. He got the tough kids due to his former life in the military and knew how to de-escalate situations.

2 of mine were those trouble kids people speak of. Several more were my foster kids. The foster kids were SAFER at school then at home until they entered 'the system'. All of these kids had been food insecure (literally starved) at some point in life. School gave them food.

All my kids got a good education at our school. Could have been better, could have been a lot worse. With what I gave the district, they did an excellent job.

The best way to improve schools? Work on supporting the at-risk families instead of leaving the school to clean up the mess.

No, you're incorrect. We just have to feed them breakfast, but no school is doing that.

[billisonboard]

Jul 25, 2022 9:42:53 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 25, 2022 9:21:38 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Thanks- that's why I added the section in parentheses in my post, to note that I was speaking of alternatives to the mainstream public school in general.

Huh. My bad. My three years as an alternative high school principal and eight credits of doctoral courses that overwhelmed my puny educator brain on how the US doesn't have a set definition of "alternative education" clearly succumb to your parenthetical notations.

A friend who was a high school principal refused to call his school "alternative" because it suggested that the other high school in the (small) district was the norm. He said the district simply had two high schools with different structures.

[raeoflyte]

I also don't agree that the public school system is broken.

Private schools and even most charters can and do discriminate against children due to medical (and behavioral often due to medical ) issues. Private schools "success" is less to do with the education provided - often from non- licensed educators - and all about who they let in the door.

At this point- statistically- Private schools also have a history of discriminating by race, religion, and sexual orientation/gender of the students or parents. It's not legal or ethical to send tax payer dollars to that kind of organization.

For the questions posed:

There are opt in online public schools for kids/families who prefer that format. Requiring it for disruptive kids isn't realistic. My first example will again be my son. He's a great student, follows rules a little too much, and his dad and I can school him at home while still maintaining our jobs. But the tech he wears to alert him of highs and lows can disrupt other students. The school has to provide additional training to several staff so that he can participate in after school activities. He's definitely a student that costs more than average. Should he also be forced to school from home? What about the students whose families who don't have an adult home? It wouldn't be the dads quitting their jobs and with forced birth a reality we live in this idea is pushing women farther and farther back.

2nd example is more what op is referring. From my conversations with school staff kindergarten is the most difficult year because kids have never been in a formal school setting and they're learning what accommodations everyone needs. The physical and emotional outbursts by a handful of students sent my dd to the office at least a half dozen times due to injuries. One student in dd class lives kitty corner behind us. We share a few feet of fence and even to this day of entering 4th grade we can hear some of his meltdowns ((he was a chair thrower in kindergarten and clipped dd a couple times). I don't know his dx but he has some big struggles but the school has done an amazing job working with him. Up through 2nd grade his folks would walk him to the front door and a staff member was there to walk him in, but instead of treating him like a nuisance it was always - I'm so glad youre here! Could you help me with these papers/project/etc. - He's incredibly smart and dd says he can still be disruptive in their advanced math but it's tapping or talking, not throwing chairs. I don't see how that occupational therapy can be provided when kids are at home. And by 2nd grade (even first grade) both kids have reported very few classroom disruptions. It's just that time of figuring out what kid needs what. Dd kindergarten year was truly concerning because of the # of physical outbursts. Dd was caught in them a half dozen times and staff were actively encouraging her to physically defend herself. She is a kid who can work with anyone so she was paired up with the tough kids a lot. If I hadn't seen the transformation of some of these kids I'm not sure I'd believe it. Ds wasn't as impacted but he remembers 1 kid in kindergarten with similar issues, but also with just a couple years the kids no longer had outbursts.

Taxes are a pain and I'd love to pick and choose what parts of the military to support but I don't get that option. I think most areas - especially so-so schools are not over funded. The idea to only fund bare bones education for those students is depressing. A lot of kids find a passion - band or a sport and get through high-school because of that passion. I don't play any instrument to support myself now, but I got a ton of interview experience preparing and auditioning. I want to see extra curriculums in school.

[giramomma]

Jul 25, 2022 9:36:01 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

But yes, so glad you all want to be respectful and want me to sit respectfully in the corner while I listen to your absolute wisdom of one-sentence solutions. 

No assumptions made.

I am reporting what I've seen in my neck of the woods.

Which is also precisely the problem. You can't apply blanket solutions to highly individualized problems.

I'm sure there are other states where socio-economic disparity doesn't affect the kids so much as it does here in mine.

Shoot, even across my city, the problems are not the same.

We have one elementary school that has been overcrowded for at least 15 years..Prior to covid. We're talking 30+ kids in a classroom, kids being taught in the cafeteria, etc.

No one ever votes for that school to be expanded. Want to know why? A large part of that population is low income, people of color, and some not here legally. They have little money, which means they have little power. The haves in my city like to pretend the have nots don't exist. There's also a lot of NIMBY in my city.

In my district, they put all the homeless kids in one elementary school. I'm going to wager a guess that those kids have a far different experience than the kids that go to elementary school in middle class and beyond neighborhoods.

Few people really care about the plight of others. I think that contributes to it. I'd get into the public schools now and volunteer, but I don't have enough time to be volunteer. It's on the list of things I want to do to make things better when I don't have so many other responsibilities...Hopefully, I don't have to wait until I'm retired from my dayjob.

[nidena]

Jul 25, 2022 9:57:49 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 25, 2022 9:53:16 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Hmm, my parent was a middle school teacher of a poverty inner-city school. He got the tough kids due to his former life in the military and knew how to de-escalate situations.

2 of mine were those trouble kids people speak of. Several more were my foster kids. The foster kids were SAFER at school then at home until they entered 'the system'. All of these kids had been food insecure (literally starved) at some point in life. School gave them food.

All my kids got a good education at our school. Could have been better, could have been a lot worse. With what I gave the district, they did an excellent job.

The best way to improve schools? Work on supporting the at-risk families instead of leaving the school to clean up the mess.

No, you're incorrect. We just have to feed them breakfast, but no school is doing that.

The schools in my district charge for breakfast.  Not every family can afford them, even as inexpensive as the reduced costs ones are, especially if they have multiple children.  And, as low as the cost actually is, I don't think it's a ridiculous thought to take some of the state surplus and cover the cost.