How to Fix Public Education

[billisonboard]

Jul 25, 2022 9:43:38 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Jul 25, 2022 9:09:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Was there a point at any time in the past that the graduation rate was higher than 70%?

Honestly, I don't know. I don't have time to look up graduation rates from 1970 or before.

Someone with better knowledge of history will know exactly when manufacturing was no longer a thing in Milwaukee. When manufacturing went away, that's when things started getting bad in Milwaukee.

My claim was that schools are doing a better job of educating more of the total population of school aged Americans than at any time in the past. You indicated that wasn't true in your area based on one data point and indicate you are not knowledgeable of any others.

I am always suspicious of older reported graduation rates, before the federal Department of Education was up and running. There really isn't reliable data. But here is short term information: Milwaukee Public Schools Four-year Graduation Rate Rises

[raeoflyte]

They're closing the 2 smallest elementary schools in our district to make a large combined one. I'm absolutely crushed because we loved our school, teachers, and admin. But it's too expensive to run the small schools. You can't argue against big schools and want to take money away from the district at the same time.

What do you think would happen in the public school where families take half of their kids tax dollars to a private school? The privates aren't going to take the kids with medical or behavioral issues. So the public school has less funds to work with the most costly kids. How does this fix anything? It's just giving more money to the haves.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 25, 2022 10:18:05 GMT -5 nidena said:

Jul 25, 2022 9:57:49 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

No, you're incorrect. We just have to feed them breakfast, but no school is doing that.

The schools in my district charge for breakfast.  Not every family can afford them, even as inexpensive as the reduced costs ones are, especially if they have multiple children.  And, as low as the cost actually is, I don't think it's a ridiculous thought to take some of the state surplus and cover the cost.

Your assumption and implication that the district in which you live means that all states and/or districts are exactly the same is both asinine and derogatory.

[raeoflyte]

Jul 25, 2022 10:34:49 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 25, 2022 10:18:05 GMT -5 nidena said:

The schools in my district charge for breakfast.  Not every family can afford them, even as inexpensive as the reduced costs ones are, especially if they have multiple children.  And, as low as the cost actually is, I don't think it's a ridiculous thought to take some of the state surplus and cover the cost.

Your assumption and implication that the district in which you live means that all states and/or districts are exactly the same is both asinine and derogatory.

? I'm not reading that at all.

[nidena]

Jul 25, 2022 10:34:49 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 25, 2022 10:18:05 GMT -5 nidena said:

The schools in my district charge for breakfast.  Not every family can afford them, even as inexpensive as the reduced costs ones are, especially if they have multiple children.  And, as low as the cost actually is, I don't think it's a ridiculous thought to take some of the state surplus and cover the cost.

Your assumption and implication that the district in which you live means that all states and/or districts are exactly the same is both asinine and derogatory.

I'm not speaking to every district or state.  I'm speaking to any that don't have those things.  The schools that I attended as a child didn't have free lunch or breakfast.  They had "reduced" lunch or breakfast.  My parents were part of that "reduced" population so my lunch tickets cost less than others.  

[raeoflyte]

Jul 25, 2022 9:57:49 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 25, 2022 9:53:16 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Hmm, my parent was a middle school teacher of a poverty inner-city school. He got the tough kids due to his former life in the military and knew how to de-escalate situations.

2 of mine were those trouble kids people speak of. Several more were my foster kids. The foster kids were SAFER at school then at home until they entered 'the system'. All of these kids had been food insecure (literally starved) at some point in life. School gave them food.

All my kids got a good education at our school. Could have been better, could have been a lot worse. With what I gave the district, they did an excellent job.

The best way to improve schools? Work on supporting the at-risk families instead of leaving the school to clean up the mess.

No, you're incorrect. We just have to feed them breakfast, but no school is doing that.

Going back through I think I've found what you're responding to, but I still don't read the comment as schools just need to feed kids and it would all be ok.

Our school has provided free breakfast for all everyone the entire time we were there because you can't learn if you're hungry. You can't leave your hunger at the door and be a great student.

There's no way that I can have even a portion of your knowledge and experience of an entire career teaching and in admin. But I am active in my kids education and personal friends with admins at the school and love to hear their opinions and experience actually in the school.

[billisonboard]

Jul 25, 2022 9:57:02 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 9:39:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I take it you have never been a part of the process of determining what to present for a public vote. School Boards present the fuller option because they deliberate and decide that they can successfully make the case for it. If they end up being wrong, they will trim it back and submit it for a new vote.

No, I haven't. I vote in every election but I do my research a few days ahead of time and make my decisions. If there's not enough info on the internet (particularly true for candidates for local office) I don't vote for the person or issue.

I still don't like being tied into a choice of "Vote for the Taj Mahal or we won't have any money to do anything". You can still make a case for the Taj Mahal and I might vote for it.

A bit unrelated but my town has an issue to borrow about $50 million over the next 10 years, in $10 million tranches every 2 years, to improve roads. Our town is just under 10 square miles but a lot of work is needed. I'd happily vote for a $10 million bond issue immediately and make my decision on a second $10 million issue based on what they accomplish with the first $10 million. Not a choice, of course, and I may vote against giving them carte blanche to borrow that much over 10 years for a town of only about 30,000 people with no idea how effectively they'll deploy it.

Are you saying that if school boards started running bond elections in the way you would like them to be run would help fix public education?

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 12:01:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Are you saying that if school boards started running bond elections in the way you would like them to be run would help fix public education?

I'm saying that passage of a "do the essential repairs and renovations" alternative to the Taj Mahal choice would provide more money than defeat of a "take it or leave it" Taj Mahal proposition.

And I'm well aware that improving schools involves more than money but money is necessary.

[billisonboard]

Jul 25, 2022 13:12:47 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 12:01:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Are you saying that if school boards started running bond elections in the way you would like them to be run would help fix public education?

I'm saying that passage of a "do the essential repairs and renovations" alternative to the Taj Mahal choice would provide more money than defeat of a "take it or leave it" Taj Mahal proposition.

And I'm well aware that improving schools involves more than money but money is necessary.

How often has your district had an extended no money situation? I mean defeated a fuller request and then were not able to run/pass a trimmed down bond.

[swamp]

www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2022/07/24/grooming-sex-ed-nebraska-judith-reisman/

Stop electing right wing nut bags to the school boards. 

[swamp]

I also disagree that public education is broken.  

I'm very happy with the education my children are receiving at a public school.   

[pulmonarymd]

I am also happy with our public schools. Better than at many of the private schools around here. 

[raeoflyte]

Jul 25, 2022 14:19:40 GMT -5 swamp said:

www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2022/07/24/grooming-sex-ed-nebraska-judith-reisman/

Stop electing right wing nut bags to the school boards. 

We're so fucked.

[Tiny]

I don't think the school system is broken...   

I think it comes down to the question:   Why should I pay to educate other people's kids?     <-- that's a generic "I"    

I think there might be a large segment of wealthy people who would rather not pay to educate other people's kids. 
(that's the voucher and charter schools and basically any scheme that pulls money away from America's public schools.) 

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 14:44:56 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I think there might be a large segment of wealthy people who would rather not pay to educate other people's kids. 
(that's the voucher and charter schools and basically any scheme that pulls money away from America's public schools.) 

So... schools that receive vouchers and charter schools don't educate other people's kids?  What do they do in there all day?

And if the state was paying $X,000 to educate a kid in the public (non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private- gotta be careful with my language since I'm only a clueless taxpayer and not an Educator) but instead the student no longer attends the non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private school, and the parents get a voucher or credit for 50% of $X,000, doesn't the school system have more per student to spend on the remaining kids?

[djAdvocate]

i think our educational system is completely on the wrong track.

first of all, standardized testing for any other purpose than measuring efficacy is absolutely the wrong approach.  if we base funding on standardized testing, it will corrupt the system in countless ways, and that is precisely where we are.

second, schools should not be in competition with other schools in any sense of the term competition.  i know we love competition in the US, but again, this is the wrong approach.  the only thing we should be in competition with is our own performance as measured by testing.  underperforming schools should be given human resources, not financial resources, including monitoring to ascertain WHY these things are happening.

finally, schools should be given autonomy to make choices that benefit their communities.  

American schools are pressure cookers that pit students against students, schools against schools, teachers against teachers in the race to produce scores that will benefit those schools.  this is upside down from how the most successful schools are run.  the best schools have little or no homework, lots of autonomy, and a sense that they are there to educate kids, not to compete against some mythical standard.

i have no idea if any of this has been mentioned in the course of this discussion.  i was going strictly by the OP.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 15:37:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

I think our educational system is completely on the wrong track.

<snip>
American schools are pressure cookers that pit students against students, schools against schools, teachers against teachers in the race to produce scores that will benefit those schools.  this is upside down from how the most successful schools are run.  the best schools have little or no homework, lots of autonomy, and a sense that they are there to educate kids, not to compete against some mythical standard.

I have no idea if any of this has been mentioned in the course of this discussion.  i was going strictly by the OP.

No, it hasn't, and thank you for those points.  Common Core is a great example of a mandate that (from input from parents I know) was disastrous even though the intent (to make sure that kids all of the US were learning specific essential things at each grade level) was a good one. 

"Success" should be measured by how well the kids in that school progress.  Some schools have kids with more difficulties in learning- dysfunctional home life, poverty, English not spoken at home, parents who can't help with homework.  If the kids are progressing, maybe even moving closer to their grade level, that may be a spectacular result even though the kids in the wealthy suburb next door have higher test scores.

And I think we did a huge disservice trying to ram the maximum % of students into college from HS.  A lot of kids who would have done very well in the trades or working their way up in retail or hospitality ended up dropping out of college, or community college, with heavy student loan burdens and no benefit to show for it.  But that's what they measured, and what gets measured gets done.

[jerseygirl]

In general, inner city public schools are a disaster . Lots of money spent but poor results. Thinking more vouchers to follow students might help the kids escape the government schools
Agree with not pushing most kids to college. Education that includes Trades would be an asset for many kids and society

[raeoflyte]

Jul 25, 2022 15:14:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 14:44:56 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I think there might be a large segment of wealthy people who would rather not pay to educate other people's kids. 
(that's the voucher and charter schools and basically any scheme that pulls money away from America's public schools.) 

So... schools that receive vouchers and charter schools don't educate other people's kids?  What do they do in there all day?

And if the state was paying $X,000 to educate a kid in the public (non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private- gotta be careful with my language since I'm only a clueless taxpayer and not an Educator) but instead the student no longer attends the non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private school, and the parents get a voucher or credit for 50% of $X,000, doesn't the school system have more per student to spend on the remaining kids?

You're ok with giving tax payer money to organizations that actively discriminate? The whole point of private schools is to discriminate because they don't want certain kids.

Since the private schools won't take those kids with medical and behavioral issues that are more expensive to take care of, removing 50% of funds per kid of "easy" kids will disproportionately burden the public schools with kids who cost more and fewer resources.

[formerroomate99]

One thing that surprised me when I move from the Midwest to a town in the west was the different approach to public education. In my old Midwest town, every economically and racially segregated town had its old school district, while in my new town, we have enormous school districts that cover many towns that have everything from from trailer parks to multi million dollar mansions. Because the school districts are bigger, we’re not having the duplicated overhead, and can afford a competent IT department that automates a lot of the grunt work. But where you really get the bang for the buck is the degree of oversight the district has. Because these wealthy educated housewives are sending their kids to the same school district and often the same schools as the trailer Park kids, there is a degree of competence and honesty across the board, because they know they are being watched like a hawk.

The real tragedy of my Midwest town schools wasn’t the lack of funding, because there wasn’t a single school district in my old Midwest town that didn’t that doesn’t get at least 50% more than my new school district. But those school districts in the poor areas had a breathtaking amount of incompetence and corruption that left very little resources for actually educating the children. The incompetent crooks running these failed school districts could get away with anything and everything because nobody was really watching them.

The school district I’m in spends around eight grand per student. My autistic son has gotten wonderful care. There’s a plethora of charter schools that cater to every niche imaginable. And the high schools offer both dual enrollment for the academically minded kids and tech programs in everything under the sun. We have kids graduating high school and walking into jobs making 50 grand a year. In my old Midwest town, the school districts spent between 12,000 and 16,000 a year per student, and many of the districts were bad enough to of lost their accreditation and were known for graduating students who didn’t know how to read.

There is something to be said for people realizing that we’re all in this together.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 15:57:34 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

In general, inner city public schools are a disaster . Lots of money spent but poor results. Thinking more vouchers to follow students might help the kids escape the government schools.

I do think we need to address the underlying issues.  One study I read concluded that the biggest underlying factor in a kid's success in school is- surprise!- parental involvement and engagement.  If parents are ill-equipped to support their kids' learning (reading to them and talking to them early on,  helping with homework, getting them the necessary supplies, addressing performance issues early) we need to address that.  They may not have had any support themselves or they may be overwhelmed by poverty or other stressors.  I never take it for granted that my parents "just knew" that you read to babies, helped them explore the world, taught them letters and numbers early.  And I still remember my Dad standing there watching me do tiresome computational Math, checking it with his slide rule and saying, "Nope.  Wrong.  Do it again."

Here's an example of the difference between kids who are read to before they start school and kids who are not.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190404074947.htm

This doesn't just affect the number of words in their vocabulary.  It means their brains are getting more stimulation during an important phase in their brain development.  Is the Parents as Teachers program still being used?  I didn't read much about it but it sounded beneficial for those parents who needed help in that area.

[billisonboard]

Why Homework?

Completion of homework assignments demonstrate a willingness to work "off the clock". It indicates who should advance in schooling towards jobs, generally better paying ones, that have such expectations. Those unwilling to do such work should fail to advance and be slotted for hourly wage jobs.

[TheOtherMe]

Jul 25, 2022 16:01:17 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jul 25, 2022 15:14:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

So... schools that receive vouchers and charter schools don't educate other people's kids?  What do they do in there all day?

And if the state was paying $X,000 to educate a kid in the public (non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private- gotta be careful with my language since I'm only a clueless taxpayer and not an Educator) but instead the student no longer attends the non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private school, and the parents get a voucher or credit for 50% of $X,000, doesn't the school system have more per student to spend on the remaining kids?

You're ok with giving tax payer money to organizations that actively discriminate? The whole point of private schools is to discriminate because they don't want certain kids.

Since the private schools won't take those kids with medical and behavioral issues that are more expensive to take care of, removing 50% of funds per kid of "easy" kids will disproportionately burden the public schools with kids who cost more and fewer resources.

The Iowa governor wants to take away $50 million from public schools to give to fund 10,000 private school scholarships.  Smaller school districts are very much against it.  There has been so much consolidation that if this happens and more rural schools have to consolidate, kids will be on buses for much too long.  She had a meeting with some rural school superintendents and they all told her this would destroy their school systems.  

Even in the larger district where I live, the school board said that it can not afford to lose the state funding.  Schools here are already underfunded.  Every year the legislature is recommended an amount of money that school districts need to maintain funding for last year.  That's per pupil funding.  The legislature does not give them the increase and every district in this state is hurting because of it.  

Yes, the public schools, are required to take every student.  Kids with medical and behavioral issues cost more than kids without these problems.  When my sister was still trying to get a teaching job with the school district, she was a paraprofessional.  She spent the entire day with one student for 3 years.  That is expensive for the school district and public schools have no choice.  

[cyanne]

Jul 25, 2022 15:14:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 14:44:56 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I think there might be a large segment of wealthy people who would rather not pay to educate other people's kids. 
(that's the voucher and charter schools and basically any scheme that pulls money away from America's public schools.) 

So... schools that receive vouchers and charter schools don't educate other people's kids?  What do they do in there all day?

And if the state was paying $X,000 to educate a kid in the public (non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private- gotta be careful with my language since I'm only a clueless taxpayer and not an Educator) but instead the student no longer attends the non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private school, and the parents get a voucher or credit for 50% of $X,000, doesn't the school system have more per student to spend on the remaining kids?

My understanding is that state funding for public schools is based on student count. You remove students you remove state funding so there is less money not more.

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 25, 2022 15:51:54 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 15:37:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

I think our educational system is completely on the wrong track.

<snip>
American schools are pressure cookers that pit students against students, schools against schools, teachers against teachers in the race to produce scores that will benefit those schools.  this is upside down from how the most successful schools are run.  the best schools have little or no homework, lots of autonomy, and a sense that they are there to educate kids, not to compete against some mythical standard.

I have no idea if any of this has been mentioned in the course of this discussion.  i was going strictly by the OP.

No, it hasn't, and thank you for those points.  Common Core is a great example of a mandate that (from input from parents I know) was disastrous even though the intent (to make sure that kids all of the US were learning specific essential things at each grade level) was a good one. 

"Success" should be measured by how well the kids in that school progress.  Some schools have kids with more difficulties in learning- dysfunctional home life, poverty, English not spoken at home, parents who can't help with homework.  If the kids are progressing, maybe even moving closer to their grade level, that may be a spectacular result even though the kids in the wealthy suburb next door have higher test scores.

And I think we did a huge disservice trying to ram the maximum % of students into college from HS.  A lot of kids who would have done very well in the trades or working their way up in retail or hospitality ended up dropping out of college, or community college, with heavy student loan burdens and no benefit to show for it.  But that's what they measured, and what gets measured gets done.

Good luck with that. Our school budget was routinely attacked by the local taxpayers group(despite the fact that we had one of the lowest per pupil expenditures in the state with excellent results). When the budget was not passed, cuts had to be made. The culinary and other non-college track programs were cut. In addition, maintenance was deferred if it wasn't urgent. People talk about wanting all these things, but they then vote against them.

Our high school is outdated. It's original building dates from 1928, and has had a number of additions. It has asbestos in the tiles and had leaks. My wife was on the committee that was looking at the options: minor renovations, major renovations, and a new school. When you looked at what we would have to spend to get the school up to code and fix only the essential defects, it was not worth the cost. A new school was the obvious answer. The republicans ran a campaign against it and pushed a whole bunch of mistruths about the issue. It got voted down. We lost a $25 million grant from the state, and still needed to do something because we would lose accreditation if we didn't. SO back to the drawing board. New building committee, same conclusion. New referendum. Passed. But now it cost $50 million more due to the loss of the grant and inflation in building supplies.

The idea that it is only the schools that are the problem is faulty. The citizenry can cause lots of problems for the schools and their budgets

[TheOtherMe]

Of course underlying issues need to be addressed but how is that going to happen?  

Even when I was in school and mom went to every conference for both my sister and I, teachers would tell her "it's parents like you that show up and nobody shows up for kids who are struggling".  

I was read to and my mom knew nothing about teaching.  For some people it must come naturally.  Mom wasn't read to and she didn't do that great in school.  My dad said his parents never asked if he graduated from high school and no one from his family was there.  

I also take exception with "government" schools.  I attended a public school, not a "government" school.  

[TheOtherMe]

Jul 25, 2022 16:21:00 GMT -5 cyanne said:

Jul 25, 2022 15:14:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

So... schools that receive vouchers and charter schools don't educate other people's kids?  What do they do in there all day?

And if the state was paying $X,000 to educate a kid in the public (non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private- gotta be careful with my language since I'm only a clueless taxpayer and not an Educator) but instead the student no longer attends the non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private school, and the parents get a voucher or credit for 50% of $X,000, doesn't the school system have more per student to spend on the remaining kids?

My understanding is that state funding for public schools is based on student count. You remove students you remove state funding so there is less money not more.

In Iowa, they publicize the day the student count is taken and beg parents to send their kids to school.  

[pulmonarymd]

This discussion is reminiscent of what we are going through in medicine. People want accountability and metric based treatments. Only problem is that we do not control people's behavior. If diabetics do not follow a diet, patient's do not take their medicines, respiratory patients do not stop smoking, the best doctors in the world look bad. Outcomes correlate with wealth and socioeconomic factors as well. Care for a rich, well insured population, and you look good. 

To counteract this, all kinds of interventions are undertaken. Nurses are hired to call these patients to remind them to take their medicine, go over their diet, etc. It works. But, who will pay for this. It is easy to get good outcomes with rich, educated, motivated populations. How do we get good results in other populations? And how do we pay for it. Many people like to tout their successes. But they refuse to acknowledge their advantages. Private schools have a built in advantage. Comparing public schools to them is unfair. Rich districts have a lot of money to spend. I guarantee they could get the same outcomes spending less. The people who live their would make sure of that. Public schools are meant to level the playing field. We just do not act like we want that to happen.

[formerroomate99]

Jul 25, 2022 15:57:34 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

In general, inner city public schools are a disaster . Lots of money spent but poor results. Thinking more vouchers to follow students might help the kids escape the government schools
Agree with not pushing most kids to college. Education that includes Trades would be an asset for many kids and society

I think the dismantling of the vocational programs is one big reason why the inner-city schools are a disaster. If you’re a very poor kid who isn’t a genius,, your chances of succeeding in college are not very high. So whether you pay attention in school or not, you’re going to end up working at McDonald’s anyway. But if paying attention in school means that you leave high school with a certification that will let you walk into a job making real money, then you’ve got reason to pay attention in school.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 17:36:13 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

I think the dismantling of the vocational programs is one big reason why the inner-city schools are a disaster. If you’re a very poor kid who isn’t a genius,, your chances of succeeding in college are not very high. So whether you pay attention in school or not, you’re going to end up working at McDonald’s anyway. But if paying attention in school means that you leave high school with a certification that will let you walk into a job making real money, then you’ve got reason to pay attention in school.

And it's not just inner-city. I'm thinking of 4 people I knew at various stages: grade-school classmate in the school I attended till I was 10, not that bright but LOVED electronics. Ask him a question about electricity and he knew it. I lost touch but I hope he's a successful (maybe retired) electrician. Later grade school (both 99% white, Roman Catholic BTW), another guy who was not a standout but a good guy. I saw him at a reunion- he owned his own plumbing firm and was very proud of the fact that he provided health insurance to his employees. I told him that was impressive. First guy I ever dated tried community college, wasn't really into it but was a natural manager. He started at McD's and ended up managing a steak house. Finally, my cousin married a woman with a great business sense who started working the floor at JC Penney and ended pretty high up in management when she retired.

I agree, though, that it's even more important in inner-city schools where more kids might see the trades as attainable.