Roe vs Wade Overturned!

[Bonny]

Jun 28, 2022 9:09:15 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:06:51 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

On a neighbor's Facebook page (she's a Trumper but also claims to be pro-choice and doesn't understand what the big deal is about because everyone should know by 15 weeks.  Had to point it out to her that Georgia's new law will be 6 weeks).  Anyway, I finally saw the comment that women needed to be responsible and not get pregnant but there should be exceptions for 'legitimate' rape.  I don't know whether to vomit or cry.

WTF counts as "legitimate rape"?!   JFC I hope she doesn't have daughters.

Probably "date rape" or getting drunk and not being able to give consent.

You know the blame the victim game. "She should have known better" or "she asked for it".  ! This is what I grew up hearing.

[billisonboard]

Jun 28, 2022 9:34:38 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:09:15 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

WTF counts as "legitimate rape"?!   JFC I hope she doesn't have daughters.

Probably "date rape" or getting drunk and not being able to give consent.

You know the blame the victim game. "She should have known better" or "she asked for it".  ! This is what I grew up hearing.

I think it is the idea that if the only legally accepted reason to get an abortion is in cases of rape, women will claim they were raped to qualify.

[gs11rmb]

Jun 28, 2022 9:09:15 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:06:51 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

On a neighbor's Facebook page (she's a Trumper but also claims to be pro-choice and doesn't understand what the big deal is about because everyone should know by 15 weeks.  Had to point it out to her that Georgia's new law will be 6 weeks).  Anyway, I finally saw the comment that women needed to be responsible and not get pregnant but there should be exceptions for 'legitimate' rape.  I don't know whether to vomit or cry.

WTF counts as "legitimate rape"?!   JFC I hope she doesn't have daughters.

Well to be fair, that was the comment of a male friend of the poster.  I really try hard not to get into political discussions on Facebook but my neighbor kept saying that she was personally pro-choice.  It took every ounce of control for me not to reply that I was glad she would be voting pro-choice in November by supporting Senator Warnock and Stacey Abrams.

For those that don't know, Raphael Warnock is a reverend, a man who has actually studied the bible in great depth and is a pro-choice pastor.  Pro-lifers do not have a monopoly on Christianity.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jun 28, 2022 9:34:38 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:09:15 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

WTF counts as "legitimate rape"?!   JFC I hope she doesn't have daughters.

Probably "date rape" or getting drunk and not being able to give consent.

You know the blame the victim game. "She should have known better" or "she asked for it".  ! This is what I grew up hearing.

It’s a short slide from this to ‘she was showing her ankles and elbows’.  

I think I heard one description of ‘legitimate tape’ as that rape which is reported.  Yeah….so a woman can get raped a second time by the justice system.  Even when they do get convicted, their hand gets slapped (a la Brock Turner).  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jun 28, 2022 9:34:38 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:09:15 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

WTF counts as "legitimate rape"?!   JFC I hope she doesn't have daughters.

Probably "date rape" or getting drunk and not being able to give consent.

You know the blame the victim game. "She should have known better" or "she asked for it".  ! This is what I grew up hearing.

But she was drunk and at a party.  Therefore she invited the behavior because men are animals and just cannot grasp the concept of keep it in their pants.  And in the case of date rape it's often someone you "know" so the claim can be well if she didn't want it why did she agree to go on the date?  She "owes" him sex, she probably gave him mixed signals and he just got caught up in the moment.

There is no "legitimate rape" because the assholes claiming that can find any reason to say it wasn't legit.

The only thing I can guess is they are thinking movie/ Law and Order type rapes where it is a 100% total stranger that dramatically broke into your home.  Then you need to make sure you fight so hard that there is physical evidence of the struggle because injury shows deep down you didn't secretly want it.  Then you don't go into shock/trauma response but instead heroically head straight to the police station where you will be totally believed   and demand full justice according to law.

Oh and you better have been wearing a burkha to bed because if you wore anything that showed the slightest bit of skin he was probably just too tempted to resist himself.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jun 28, 2022 10:04:51 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:34:38 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Probably "date rape" or getting drunk and not being able to give consent.

You know the blame the victim game. "She should have known better" or "she asked for it".  ! This is what I grew up hearing.

But she was drunk and at a party.  Therefore she invited the behavior because men are animals and just cannot grasp the concept of keep it in their pants.  And in the case of date rape it's often someone you "know" so the claim can be well if she didn't want it why did she agree to go on the date?  She "owes" him sex, she probably gave him mixed signals and he just got caught up in the moment.

There is no "legitimate rape" because the assholes claiming that can find any reason to say it wasn't legit.

The only thing I can guess is they are thinking movie/ Law and Order type rapes where it is a 100% total stranger that dramatically broke into your home.  Then you need to make sure you fight so hard that there is physical evidence of the struggle because injury shows deep down you didn't secretly want it.  Then you don't go into shock/trauma response but instead heroically head straight to the police station where you will be totally believed   and demand full justice according to law.

Oh and you better have been wearing a burkha to bed because if you wore anything that showed the slightest bit of skin he was probably just too tempted to resist himself.

In other words, you need to have the crap beaten out of you before getting raped, otherwise it’s your fault.  It couldn't be that you simply don’t want to be beaten within an inch of your life…..or killed.

Cynicism is alive and well.  I really hate where we are at right now. 

[Bonny]

Jun 28, 2022 10:12:13 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jun 28, 2022 10:04:51 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

But she was drunk and at a party.  Therefore she invited the behavior because men are animals and just cannot grasp the concept of keep it in their pants.  And in the case of date rape it's often someone you "know" so the claim can be well if she didn't want it why did she agree to go on the date?  She "owes" him sex, she probably gave him mixed signals and he just got caught up in the moment.

There is no "legitimate rape" because the assholes claiming that can find any reason to say it wasn't legit.

The only thing I can guess is they are thinking movie/ Law and Order type rapes where it is a 100% total stranger that dramatically broke into your home.  Then you need to make sure you fight so hard that there is physical evidence of the struggle because injury shows deep down you didn't secretly want it.  Then you don't go into shock/trauma response but instead heroically head straight to the police station where you will be totally believed   and demand full justice according to law.

Oh and you better have been wearing a burkha to bed because if you wore anything that showed the slightest bit of skin he was probably just too tempted to resist himself.

In other words, you need to have the crap beaten out of you before getting raped, otherwise it’s your fault.  It couldn't be that you simply don’t want to be beaten within an inch of your life…..or killed.

Cynicism is alive and well.  I really hate where we are at right now. 

I know. I feel so sangry. (Sad + angry). I feel like we shouldn't be fighting this fight all over again.

As I've mentioned up thread, I'm reading "The Bretheren". I just read about Roe vs Wade decision. From the book's description, a woman's right to control her own body was never a consideration. It was a privacy issue vs protection of the fetus. Lots of discussion over what was viable life in the womb.

I am heartened by the mobilization of those wanting to help women have access to health care.

Now we need to get legislation passed to codify our personal rights.

[thyme4change]

Jun 25, 2022 10:33:22 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Jun 25, 2022 10:14:05 GMT -5 daisylu said:

One of the protesters outside the SC held a sign that said "BAN VIAGRA, IF PREGNANCY IS GOD'S WILL DO IS ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION". 🤣

While I agree with the sentiment, as well as Lysistrata type movements, there will be other unintended consequences from this decision.

IVF and other infertility measures may be on the chopping block, too.

If one of the purposes is to bolster birth rates of whites and/or Christians, banning IVF won't be on anyone's to-do list.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

So here’s something I’m grappling with.  With this ruling, we have pretty much lost bodily autonomy, or at least 50% of the population has.

What is to stop them from demanding we donate a kidney, blood, bone marrow, a chunk of liver?  If the female body can be used as an incubator for a fetus, it’s a short step away from being a holding tank for spare parts.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jun 28, 2022 10:30:16 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 25, 2022 10:33:22 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

While I agree with the sentiment, as well as Lysistrata type movements, there will be other unintended consequences from this decision.

IVF and other infertility measures may be on the chopping block, too.

If one of the purposes is to bolster birth rates of whites and/or Christians, banning IVF won't be on anyone's to-do list.

Maybe more people need to understand statistics.  The more wealthy white people and Christians aren’t going to be pumping out more kids.  However, those that utilize these services more and can’t afford to travel are.  This is definitely going to skew demographics.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 28, 2022 9:09:15 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:06:51 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

On a neighbor's Facebook page (she's a Trumper but also claims to be pro-choice and doesn't understand what the big deal is about because everyone should know by 15 weeks.  Had to point it out to her that Georgia's new law will be 6 weeks).  Anyway, I finally saw the comment that women needed to be responsible and not get pregnant but there should be exceptions for 'legitimate' rape.  I don't know whether to vomit or cry.

WTF counts as "legitimate rape"?!   JFC I hope she doesn't have daughters.

ref: Todd Aiken

[thyme4change]

Jun 28, 2022 9:06:51 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

On a neighbor's Facebook page (she's a Trumper but also claims to be pro-choice and doesn't understand what the big deal is about because everyone should know by 15 weeks.  Had to point it out to her that Georgia's new law will be 6 weeks).  Anyway, I finally saw the comment that women needed to be responsible and not get pregnant but there should be exceptions for 'legitimate' rape.  I don't know whether to vomit or cry.

Let's math this.

Condems have a 90% success rate of preventing pregnancy. That means if you have sex 10 times - statistically you are pregnant.

The pill a 95% chance - so 20 times will get you pregnant.

An IUD, vasectomies and tubal all have like a 99.5%. That means if you have sex twice a week for 2 years, you could still be pregnant. (Or, a hot and heavy beginning of a relationship - twice a day for 3 months 😁)

"Responsibility" alone may not be enough.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 28, 2022 12:47:00 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:06:51 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

On a neighbor's Facebook page (she's a Trumper but also claims to be pro-choice and doesn't understand what the big deal is about because everyone should know by 15 weeks.  Had to point it out to her that Georgia's new law will be 6 weeks).  Anyway, I finally saw the comment that women needed to be responsible and not get pregnant but there should be exceptions for 'legitimate' rape.  I don't know whether to vomit or cry.

Let's math this.

Condems have a 90% success rate of preventing pregnancy. That means if you have sex 10 times - statistically you are pregnant.

The pill a 95% chance - so 20 times will get you pregnant.

An IUD, vasectomies and tubal all have like a 99.5%. That means if you have sex twice a week for 2 years, you could still be pregnant. (Or, a hot and heavy beginning of a relationship - twice a day for 3 months 😁)

"Responsibility" alone may not be enough.

this assumes that every sexual encounter will result in pregnancy.
regular sex results in pregnancy only 20% of the time.
so your figures are off by a factor of 5x, in terms of actual probability.

[resolution]

Jun 28, 2022 12:47:00 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:06:51 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

On a neighbor's Facebook page (she's a Trumper but also claims to be pro-choice and doesn't understand what the big deal is about because everyone should know by 15 weeks.  Had to point it out to her that Georgia's new law will be 6 weeks).  Anyway, I finally saw the comment that women needed to be responsible and not get pregnant but there should be exceptions for 'legitimate' rape.  I don't know whether to vomit or cry.

Let's math this.

Condems have a 90% success rate of preventing pregnancy. That means if you have sex 10 times - statistically you are pregnant.

The pill a 95% chance - so 20 times will get you pregnant.

An IUD, vasectomies and tubal all have like a 99.5%. That means if you have sex twice a week for 2 years, you could still be pregnant. (Or, a hot and heavy beginning of a relationship - twice a day for 3 months 😁)

"Responsibility" alone may not be enough.

The success rates are based on having sex regularly for a year.  www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/condom/how-effective-are-condoms

If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they’re 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. But people aren’t perfect, so in real life condoms are about 85% effective — that means about 15 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year.

[thyme4change]

Jun 28, 2022 13:20:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 28, 2022 12:47:00 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Let's math this.

Condems have a 90% success rate of preventing pregnancy. That means if you have sex 10 times - statistically you are pregnant.

The pill a 95% chance - so 20 times will get you pregnant.

An IUD, vasectomies and tubal all have like a 99.5%. That means if you have sex twice a week for 2 years, you could still be pregnant. (Or, a hot and heavy beginning of a relationship - twice a day for 3 months 😁)

"Responsibility" alone may not be enough.

this assumes that every sexual encounter will result in pregnancy.
regular sex results in pregnancy only 20% of the time.
so your figures are off by a factor of 5x, in terms of actual probability.

Okay - good info..

So sex one a week for a year with a condom will leave you vulnerable.

Etc.

As someone who had more than 15 years of sexual activity before I wanted children, there was plenty of opportunity for failure.

[pulmonarymd]

85% of couples trying to conceive will be pregnant after 12 months of unprotected sex. Contraception effectiveness needs to be interpreted in that light

[djAdvocate]

more gay sex will fix this problem.

maybe that is what the Proud Boys want.

[teen persuasion]

Jun 28, 2022 10:30:16 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 25, 2022 10:33:22 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

While I agree with the sentiment, as well as Lysistrata type movements, there will be other unintended consequences from this decision.

IVF and other infertility measures may be on the chopping block, too.

If one of the purposes is to bolster birth rates of whites and/or Christians, banning IVF won't be on anyone's to-do list.

I did say unintended consequences.  How the Roe v Wade decision could affect the fertility industry

We keep trying to use logic to figure out what *they* want. But actual, real, logic doesn't seem to be applicable to anything they do. Either they actually *want* something other than what they *say* they want, as distraction. Or, they have/use a different set of logic rules than the rest of us.

Or they are illogical.


I mean - they claim to be pro-life, must protect every pre-born life. Yet the loss of 1 million Americans to Covid is NBD. And we can't limit guns to try to stop school shootings killing kids and teachers. Does not follow logically.

They want to ban books on "immoral" subjects and squawk about drag queen story hour, etc, blaming liberals for this sort of influence. And yet so many conservative leaders are repeatedly caught in biblically "immoral" behaviors (infidelity, sexual harassment, pedophilia, theft, lies, etc) - but are not held accountable by their constituents. Does not follow logically.

They complain about the size of the govt debt, and insist cutting services for our most impoverished is the only answer. But the well-to-do deserve a tax break - increasing the govt debt even more. Does not follow logically.

They want to block the influx of immigrants, afraid immigrants will take "our" jobs.  But use immigrant labor in their businesses/ farms so they can take advantage of them - pay low wages, no benefits, poor working conditions, get them to do the dirty/hard jobs white Americans don't want to do.  Does not follow logically.

[stillmovingforward]

Women taking one of the drugs I was on for my autoimmune disorder are already having problems filling their very-needed prescription. Because it's also classed as an abortant (sp?). You are also warned to NOT get pregnant while on it or for several months afterwards. It causes horrible birth defects.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

That's because we're not looking at what the root of it all is.  It's about consolidating male power.  The more control a woman has over her reproduction, and this has been proven in multiple studies, the more time she has to devote to other things such as advancing up the career ladder and advocating to be seen as equal citizens.

If you keep us terrified of getting pregnant, or even better actually pregnant, that sucks up a lot of our time and resources.  Then we are further pressured to stay home and take care of them or be "mommy tracked" into positions that prevent us from ever gaining back the ground we were gaining post kid.

Also this gives permission for boys to continue to be boys.  After all if I didn't truly want him to do what he did I wouldn't have gotten pregnant at all would I?  You should consider being raped a blessing because now you are with child and it was God's will that it happen.  We're not going to punish the man who provided you with this gift.

We are solely on this planet to provide them a place to stick their dick.   

It also gives men a way to further threaten and control women.  Now not only can you threaten your pregnant abused spouse with jail time if she leaves because you're going to call and accuse her of seeking an abortion but you can get yourself a sweet $10k to blow on yourself as a reward!

We're well on way to back to when women were locked away in a room for nine months lest we do anything that could possibly result in harm or death to the fetus followed by a birth witnessed by a room full of people to prove that it actually came out alive.

[daisylu]

While I am not a fan of hers, Jemele Hill wrote an op-ed on why she chose abortion at age 26. She touched on several issues Drama mentioned above. Things that most men never have to think about. She knew she would get flamed for it, but she was brave enough to own her truth. 

(I did not clip the beginning of the article, where she first explains that she was not a victim of rape, or incest, or had any health issues.)

"My career meant everything to me," she continued. "I was pursuing my dream of being a sports journalist. I understood clearly that having a child would have drastically limited the future I saw for myself. Parenting would be difficult to fit into my lifestyle because, as a college beat reporter, I was on the road for nearly eight months a year covering Michigan State football and basketball."



Hill's career goals felt in reach as she was covering a nationally prominent basketball team, and having a child, she explained, felt like a threat to that.



"I didn’t want to sacrifice my body or devote my time to raising a child. I wanted to travel the world. I wanted the freedom to live wherever I wanted and to navigate my career without having to factor a child into my plans," she wrote.

While Hill acknowledged the harsh judgement she'll likely face as a result of her openness surrounding her decision-making, she addressed the important difference between the pressures and expectations facing men and women.



"I’m aware that some people will read this and think that I was selfish. Women are judged harshly for pursuing their goals as ambitiously as men do," she wrote. "Some people will probably call me irresponsible. But mistakes happen. Just because an unwanted pregnancy occurs — and it doesn’t matter if it’s within the context of a relationship, a one-night stand, or a 'situationship' — that doesn’t mean a woman should be punished by being forced to have a child she doesn’t want to raise."  

link

[chiver78]

I can't remember where the story was originally posted, but I feel like it was this thread. good news update - the woman on her 'babymoon' in Malta has survived. link

what struck me was the end of the article - 

It wasn’t until days later that Prudente realized she had her abortion on the day the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, returning abortion rights back to the states.



Prudente and Weeldreyer live in Washington, a state that protects access to abortion care.



As the couple continues to rest in Majorca before flying home, Prudente and her partner say they keep thinking about how laws like Malta’s impact not just the people who seek abortion services, but people who want to be pregnant and experience pregnancy complications like the one Prudente survived.



“I think some anti-abortion people maybe have never considered instances like this,” Prudente said. “Like, sometimes your ideology crashes into a wall of reality.”

[Tennesseer]

[chiver78]

whooo.......I'm not ready for that slap in the face just yet. 

[TheOtherMe]

At least they aren't the robes from Handmaids Tale.

[chiver78]

Target doesn't sell a lot of red clothing, actually. I don't have a link, just my observation over the years. 

[djAdvocate]

Jun 29, 2022 21:31:39 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Target doesn't sell a lot of red clothing, actually. I don't have a link, just my observation over the years. 

neither does Macy's.  just spent an hour looking for red stuff for men.

[daisylu]

I need to stop reading stuff or I am going to need BP meds soon. Surgical abortions did not begin until almost 100 years AFTER the Constitution was written. 

link


Kavanaugh wrote a concurring opinion that argued for reversing Roe for additional reasons. He wrote that the Constitution is silent on abortion – and therefore neutral on its constitutionality or unconstitutionality – so the court should be silent also. He declared that Roe was “egregiously wrong” and said it “has caused significant negative jurisprudential or real-world consequences.”


Finally, and perhaps most dramatically, Thomas’ concurrence declared that not only was Roe wrong, but the entire idea of the court recognizing the existence of constitutional rights not explicitly found in the text of the Constitution was flawed, an inappropriate expansion of rights that is known as substantive due process.



Thomas called for the court to reconsider the 1964 decision on the right of any couple to use birth control, the 2002 decision on the right of same-sex couples to engage in private consensual sexual acts and the 2014 decision on the right of same-sex couples to marry. All of these are presumably settled precedents. However, given Dobbs and the reasoning the various justices in the majority have offered, they too, along with others, could be candidates for reversal.


From another source, I find the last line interesting:

Several of the methods used to perform abortions many years ago were predominantly non-surgical. Physically exhausting techniques such as weightlifting, diving, paddling, strenuous labor, climbing, fasting, pouring hot water onto the abdomen, lying on a heated coconut shell, and irritant leaves were some of the techniques used for abortion. Surgical instruments used for abortion that date back thousands of years have been found through Archaeological discovery. Most of the instruments were never mentioned in old medical texts.



Midwives and knowledgeable laypeople were the main groups primarily responsible for performing termination procedures in early history. Abortion became well documented in the 2nd century by a Greek physician named Soranus. He suggested that some women should have an abortion due to their emotional immaturity. He described enemas, fasting, bloodletting, energetic walking, riding animals, and jumping so that the woman’s heels touched her buttocks with each jump (Lacedoemonian Leap) as abortion methods.



Abortion surgical instruments are described in many religious texts. Tertullian, a 2nd and 3rd century Christian theologian described surgical instruments and techniques very similar to those used for dilatation and evacuation today. These instruments were used when a pregnant woman’s life was in danger, or the fetus had died in the uterus.



Some women practiced sitting over a pot of steam. Candles, glass rods, penholders, curling irons, spoons, sticks, knives, catheters, coat hangers, knitting needles, douching with dangerous lye solutions, swallowing strong drugs and chemicals, were all used in an effort to self-induce abortion. Millions of women had self-induced abortions and thousands of those women died. There were more abortions performed per capita in the late 19th century than currently performed today.

[Tennesseer]

[Icelandic Woman]