Roe vs Wade Overturned!

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 22, 2022 9:58:12 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Jul 22, 2022 9:55:06 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Choosing to not have dead fetal tissue removed poses a risk.  How much of a risk cannot be determined as there are too many factors which would determine this.  That is why it does make more sense to immediately remove the risk.  

When I was in TX, my post doc’s wife got pregnant.  She was quite far in her pregnancy….maybe 6 months?  The fetus was dead, strangled by the umbilical cord.  I do remember that she was induced to deliver, but I know that the post doc was pissed that he had to fight to get the OB to induce her, OB wanted to do it naturally and post doc (who was also a microbiologist) did NOT want his wife taking the risk of the fetus and his wife turning septic.    After this, his wife did get pregnant again, and she went back to Japan for the rest of her pregnancy.  I think the post doc only had a few months remaining in the US to fulfill his contract  He was not impressed with US OB care of his wife.

Do you mean, the doctor wanted her to carry the dead baby for another 3 months?  If so, that's appalling.

Yep.  Not sure if it would have been 3 months though, as a dead fetus releases wastes that would promote expulsion.  But that can take time.

I agree that it’s appalling.  My post doc wasn’t happy either.

[teen persuasion]

Jul 21, 2022 15:50:23 GMT -5 justme said:

Jul 21, 2022 11:36:41 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

It's really hard not to feel utterly defeated realizing how deep these assholes have their claws in government. www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/07/21/michigan-republican-tudor-dixon-abortion-ban-rape/

It's horrible, but bans that give exceptions for only rape aren't really better when put into law. How do you codify the rape exception? If you have to wait for the rapist to be convicted the baby is already here. The number of rape reports that result in a timely arrest are laughable. The only way to let rape victims to get an abortion is to only need them to say "I was raped" but these people would never allow it because anyone could then say that to get a legal abortion.

Whatever they come up with would have so many hoops to jump though and basically impossible that it's a total ban they can just fool people into thinking they're minimally better.

Last night on the local news a young woman was calling out a hospital - she had been raped and went to the hospital to get a rape kit done for evidence.  The staff insisted she needed to pay $x00 for the rape kit; she had no health insurance because she worked for a temp agency.  

She knew her rights - state law says she does NOT have to pay for a rape kit - but staff refused to listen.

There is no excuse - this is not a rare event.  Staff should know state laws like this.  They should also be treating a victim, not further victimizing them with blatantly false bureaucracy.

[daisylu]

I was watching L&O SVU, and made me think about how many other things can now go sideways. It was about a doctor who forged parent consent forms for children to donate organs after death. Yes, she saved lots of kids but she robbed the parents of making the decision for their child. Her defense was she was right because she saved so many lives. The protector won citing "body autonomy", the right to make your own decisions about your body - which for women no longer exists. 😣

[dannylion]

Jul 23, 2022 18:16:13 GMT -5 daisylu said:

I was watching L&O SVU, and made me think about how many other things can now go sideways. It was about a doctor who forged parent consent forms for children to donate organs after death. Yes, she saved lots of kids but she robbed the parents of making the decision for their child. Her defense was she was right because she saved so many lives. The protector won citing "body autonomy", the right to make your own decisions about your body - which for women no longer exists. 😣

Exactly.  A woman can be refused appropriate care for a life-threatening pregnancy, but it if kills her, her corpse will be granted the dignity of bodily autonomy.  How does that seem right or moral to the forced-birthers?  They might as well just get it over with and declare that women are nothing more than organ and tissue factories and start forcing us to donate kidneys and other organs.  

[Deleted]

And another article on the consequences:

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/schools-have-long-mistreated-pregnant-students-what-will-happen-in-a-post-roe-world/ar-AAZUHZ2?cvid=383b4056d0a141bda0856c059fab443b

I've watched a few seasons of Teen Mom and they all start to with great plans to finish school, support themselves with a PT job, go to college or a trade school, etc. and it's a train wreck. I don't think I've seen one make it. Follow-ups reveal that most end up in serial dysfunctional relationships with more kids. This article talks about how little support there is for pregnant HS girls or those with newborns and they get shunned by their peers as well, with no repercussions.

And now there will be more of them.

[daisylu]

Jul 24, 2022 7:02:33 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

And another article on the consequences:

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/schools-have-long-mistreated-pregnant-students-what-will-happen-in-a-post-roe-world/ar-AAZUHZ2?cvid=383b4056d0a141bda0856c059fab443b

I've watched a few seasons of Teen Mom and they all start to with great plans to finish school, support themselves with a PT job, go to college or a trade school, etc. and it's a train wreck. I don't think I've seen one make it. Follow-ups reveal that most end up in serial dysfunctional relationships with more kids. This article talks about how little support there is for pregnant HS girls or those with newborns and they get shunned by their peers as well, with no repercussions.

And now there will be more of them.

My parents hated that I watched it with my 12yo daughter. I don't think they ever actually watched the show, or they would have understood why. She has always been mature beyond her years, and I wanted her see the train wrecks. I wanted her to see how the majority of the boys walked away with no real consequences, and how the mom's lives were damaged forever.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2022 14:49:51 GMT -5 daisylu said:

My parents hated that I watched it with my 12yo daughter. I don't think they ever actually watched the show, or they would have understood why. She has always been mature beyond her years, and I wanted her see the train wrecks. I wanted her to see how the majority of the boys walked away with no real consequences, and how the mom's lives were damaged forever.

My oldest GD is only 8 but I hope that when she's older, with her parents' permission, I'll be able to let her watch these shows.

Or I'll do what Cybill Shepherd did years ago when she was expecting twins. She thought it would be nice for her teenage daughter to be there during the birth so she showed her a film depicting childbirth. Daughter's reaction: "Ooh, this is TERRIBLE! Why are you making me watch it? What can I do to make sure I never get pregnant?"

Mission accomplished.

[billisonboard]

Jul 24, 2022 15:24:38 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 24, 2022 14:49:51 GMT -5 daisylu said:

My parents hated that I watched it with my 12yo daughter. I don't think they ever actually watched the show, or they would have understood why. She has always been mature beyond her years, and I wanted her see the train wrecks. I wanted her to see how the majority of the boys walked away with no real consequences, and how the mom's lives were damaged forever.

My oldest GD is only 8 but I hope that when she's older, with her parents' permission, I'll be able to let her watch these shows.

Or I'll do what Cybill Shepherd did years ago when she was expecting twins. She thought it would be nice for her teenage daughter to be there during the birth so she showed her a film depicting childbirth. Daughter's reaction: "Ooh, this is TERRIBLE! Why are you making me watch it? What can I do to make sure I never get pregnant?"

Mission accomplished.

My stepdaughter had a later in life accidental pregnancy. None of her older daughters (22, 20, 18) have gotten pregnant. They credit their younger sister.

[giramomma]

Yes to all of it.

My parents would have thrown me out of the house if I got pregnant as a teen. They told me as much. I didn't want to experience homelessness, so I abstained. It wasn't a hard choice for me to make.

I wasn't so draconian with DS and DD1. I explained that I was not going to work more jobs so we could pay for daycare and the they could have a normal teen life. I explained that their lives would not be fun. It wasn't a scare tactic, just some boundary setting.

I also think that with the divorce rate as high as it is, it is likely that my girls could be single moms as some point. Scaring them, or telling them how awful it could be is not something I am interested in. What if they marry someone that abuses them? Or changes into a person they don't like or respect anymore? What if their partner turns into an alcoholic at some point in the marriage? I don't want the messaging to be "well, your choices are either get beat up or stay with an active alcoholic or have a crappy, awful life as a single mom until you die. Good luck with that!" or "Ok, so this one wasn't so good. Better hurry up and find a new husband!"

DH and I both have cousins that had kids in their teens.

My cousin had a child at 16. She eventually did go on and marry the father. She is a nurse, and they had another child 10+ years later after the first one.

DH had two cousins that had kids as teenagers. One story didn't turn out so well. The kid bounced around from house to house, and then her dad died (DH's cousin) in an accident that invovled a head injury. The other one is DH's cousin's kid had a kid while in HS. She went to a 2 year school, landed a job, and eventually found a partner and got married. They are dual income.  Her kid is special needs, but otherwise they are doing just fine.

We have posters here, that had children young. Their lives were not trainwrecks.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2022 17:09:36 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Yes to all of it.

My parents would have thrown me out of the house if I got pregnant as a teen. They told me as much. I didn't want to experience homelessness, so I abstained. It wasn't a hard choice for me to make.

I remember when the girl got sent to the home for unwed mothers and had to come back and pretend nothing ever happened.

I also think that with the divorce rate as high as it is, it is likely that my girls could be single moms as some point. Scaring them, or telling them how awful it could be is not something I am interested in. What if they marry someone that abuses them? Or changes into a person they don't like or respect anymore? What if their partner turns into an alcoholic at some point in the marriage? I don't want the messaging to be "well, your choices are either get beat up or stay with an active alcoholic or have a crappy, awful life as a single mom until you die. Good luck with that!" or

The more important point to make is that they need to be able to support themselves because Stuff Happens. Perfectly good husbands die prematurely, lose jobs, become disabled or decide to study for the ministry. "I'll always have a man to support me" is a bad plan. Even in my devoutly Roman Catholic family (including my Ex's side) they understood that single motherhood was a blessing compared to the train-wreck marriage I'd left. I plan to impart this wisdom to my granddaughters.

[moon/Laura]

Imagine if, when they outlaw birth control, how fast they might change their minds if all the women of child-bearing age started saying NO to sex, whether they were married or not? Unless they were *trying* to get pregnant, that is.

"Sorry babe! The government took away my reproductive rights, so I'm removing all chances of becoming pregnant. If you wanna get laid again, go write your congressman/woman."

[Tennesseer]

I think it was this thread where someone posted an article about a woman ticketed for driving in the HOV highway lane by herself. The driver's defense was she was pregnant and her fetus was her second passenger.

This hit the news today.

Unborn child with heartbeat can be claimed as dependent on Ga. taxes

SAVANNAH, Ga. (WTOC) - An unborn child with a detectable heartbeat is now eligible for the Georgia individual income tax dependent exemption.

According to the Georgia Department of Revenue, the 11th Circuit’s ruling on HB 481, or the Heartbeat Law, made the amendment effective on July 20, 2022.

Therefore, a taxpayer may claim a dependent personal exemption in the amount of $3,000 for Tax Year 2022 for an unborn child with a detectable heartbeat at any time on or after July 20, 2022, and through December 31, 2022.

The department states that medical records and other documentation will likely be required to support the dependent deduction.

Read the guidance from the Georgia Department of Revenue by clicking here.

Unborn child with heartbeat can be claimed as dependent on Ga. taxes

[Deleted]

I live in MO but am close to the state line with KS. Yesterday KS voters defeated a measure that would have greatly restricted access to abortion in the state. Very encouraging news.

[happyhoix]

Aug 3, 2022 7:34:14 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

I live in MO but am close to the state line with KS. Yesterday KS voters defeated a measure that would have greatly restricted access to abortion in the state. Very encouraging news.

Not just defeated but soundly defeated.

I hope this is a warning to all the far right GOP candidates that they are poking a big bear with their no abortion ever/ no contraception game plan. Yes it appeals to some people, but not the majority, and it pisses them off enough to go vote.

[daisylu]

Aug 3, 2022 8:20:14 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Aug 3, 2022 7:34:14 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

I live in MO but am close to the state line with KS. Yesterday KS voters defeated a measure that would have greatly restricted access to abortion in the state. Very encouraging news.

Not just defeated but soundly defeated.

I hope this is a warning to all the far right GOP candidates that they are poking a big bear with their no abortion ever/ no contraception game plan. Yes it appeals to some people, but not the majority, and it pisses them off enough to go vote.

This was the first ballot vote, which is what makes it significant. But how many GOP lead states will PUT it on a ballot going forward? Or will they just start pushing changes through the state legislature? 

[billisonboard]

Aug 3, 2022 8:26:22 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Aug 3, 2022 8:20:14 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Not just defeated but soundly defeated.

I hope this is a warning to all the far right GOP candidates that they are poking a big bear with their no abortion ever/ no contraception game plan. Yes it appeals to some people, but not the majority, and it pisses them off enough to go vote.

This was the first ballot vote, which is what makes it significant. But how many GOP lead states will PUT it on a ballot going forward? Or will they just start pushing changes through the state legislature? 

It wasn't clear to me what was going on in Kansas. I think this is the key:

In 2019, Kansas’s Supreme Court ruled that the state’s constitution protects the right to an abortion. link

The amendment to the Kansas Constitution basically said, "No it doesn't". It would have blocked the state's Supreme Court from being able to stop the legislature from banning abortion. Don't know if any other states that might have legislatures that want to ban abortion have that hurdle to overcome.

[teen persuasion]

Aug 3, 2022 8:47:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 3, 2022 8:26:22 GMT -5 daisylu said:

This was the first ballot vote, which is what makes it significant. But how many GOP lead states will PUT it on a ballot going forward? Or will they just start pushing changes through the state legislature? 

It wasn't clear to me what was going on in Kansas. I think this is the key:

In 2019, Kansas’s Supreme Court ruled that the state’s constitution protects the right to an abortion. link

The amendment to the Kansas Constitution basically said, "No it doesn't". It would have blocked the state's Supreme Court from being able to stop the legislature from banning abortion. Don't know if any other states that might have legislatures that want to ban abortion have that hurdle to overcome.

It sends a message, loud and clear, that voters even in heavily Republican states WANT Constitutional protection for abortion.  

It was being noted that the voting on Dem candidates for governor was much lighter than voting for GOP candidates, implying a large percentage of the no vote on the amendment were in the GOP camp, not just Dems. And the high turnout implies strong interest in THIS issue by itself.

[andi9899]

Since ~70% of Americans support abortion access and red states don't care what their constituents want, I wonder how many states are going to flip. Particularly since COVID killed off a lot of the GOP base since politicians had them convinced that it was no worse than the flu and that vaccines were dangerous. Add into that Gen Z coming out strong to vote, I think we'll be pretty surprised soon.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Aug 3, 2022 9:59:48 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Since ~70% of Americans support abortion access and red states don't care what their constituents want, I wonder how many states are going to flip. Particularly since COVID killed off a lot of the GOP base since politicians had them convinced that it was no worse than the flu and that vaccines were dangerous. Add into that Gen Z coming out strong to vote, I think we'll be pretty surprised soon.

We can hope.  

I’m very heartened to see my nieces and nephews so involved in what’s happening.  TBH, I am not sure I was as vocal (or as knowledgeable) at their ages.  

[minnesotapaintlady]

Aug 3, 2022 10:51:46 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Aug 3, 2022 9:59:48 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Since ~70% of Americans support abortion access and red states don't care what their constituents want, I wonder how many states are going to flip. Particularly since COVID killed off a lot of the GOP base since politicians had them convinced that it was no worse than the flu and that vaccines were dangerous. Add into that Gen Z coming out strong to vote, I think we'll be pretty surprised soon.

We can hope.  

I’m very heartened to see my nieces and nephews so involved in what’s happening.  TBH, I am not sure I was as vocal (or as knowledgeable) at their ages.  

My 20 year old too.  He gets really worked up about political issues.  In some ways he's too extreme for my liking, but that's the youth idealism I guess.

I know I didn't care much at all about anything but myself at that age.

[andi9899]

Aug 3, 2022 10:51:46 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Aug 3, 2022 9:59:48 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Since ~70% of Americans support abortion access and red states don't care what their constituents want, I wonder how many states are going to flip. Particularly since COVID killed off a lot of the GOP base since politicians had them convinced that it was no worse than the flu and that vaccines were dangerous. Add into that Gen Z coming out strong to vote, I think we'll be pretty surprised soon.

We can hope.  

I’m very heartened to see my nieces and nephews so involved in what’s happening.  TBH, I am not sure I was as vocal (or as knowledgeable) at their ages.  

I know that I wasn't. All 4 of the kids voted in this election which I'm pretty happy about.

[Deleted]

I am pretty happy today.  I didn't see the KS vote going the way it did and was preparing myself for the loss, hoping the pro-choice position would keep it close.

I am trying to figure out what this means going forward.  It is a pretty stunning rebuke, even within the republican party.  They had given themselves the best conditions possible for this to pass, a republican state in an august primary election.

So what I am wondering is, does this change the strategy for either side going forward?  If I was a republican strategist, this would be at least concerning.  

[minnesotapaintlady]

The Zoomers and young Millenials seem to be a lot more concerned and aware than previous generations at that age.  I suppose from growing up with so much political unrest and polarization of the country (not to mention social media ).  I mean when I was in high school Reagan was president and he had won every single state in the country in the election (well, except for MN). The country was more on the same page with one another, or at least seemed to be so.

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2022 11:47:05 GMT -5 @pooks said:

I am pretty happy today.  I didn't see the KS vote going the way it did and was preparing myself for the loss, hoping the pro-choice position would keep it close.

I am trying to figure out what this means going forward.  It is a pretty stunning rebuke, even within the republican party.  They had given themselves the best conditions possible for this to pass, a republican state in an august primary election.

So what I am wondering is, does this change the strategy for either side going forward?  If I was a republican strategist, this would be at least concerning.  

My theory is that many people are on the fence- would prefer that there be fewer abortions and may be opposed to having one themselves, but when presented with an amendment that sad, "No abortion, no how, no way and the lawyers get to define what abortion is", they woke up and realized the consequences of such a law and voted it down.

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2022 11:50:26 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The Zoomers and young Millenials seem to be a lot more concerned and aware than previous generations at that age.  I suppose from growing up with so much political unrest and polarization of the country (not to mention social media ).  I mean when I was in high school Reagan was president and he had won every single state in the country in the election (well, except for MN). The country was more on the same page with one another, or at least seemed to be so.

Several of my neighbors are from El Salvador and during the last 2 election cycles, the oldest of the brothers, he's maybe 35-40?, made sure all his nieces and nephews registered to vote and voted.  He remembers his home country and how it changed and he's making sure the younger ones born here understand how quickly things can go wrong in a country if folks aren't paying attention.  And they get to ride in his very hot sports car and put lots of photos on FB and IG which doesn't hurt their rep at all. 

[minnesotapaintlady]

The results in KS just affirms my belief that just because you vote for a certain party doesn't mean you align with everything on that party's agenda.  I don't know why we don't have more popular votes on issues rather than letting a small group of elected officials make these calls. 

[teen persuasion]

Aug 3, 2022 20:02:16 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The results in KS just affirms my belief that just because you vote for a certain party doesn't mean you align with everything on that party's agenda.  I don't know why we don't have more popular votes on issues rather than letting a small group of elected officials make these calls. 

Because then that small group loses its outsized power.  If we could vote directly, what do we need them for?  

But, seriously, if we went to direct voting on issues, it could quickly turn into a reality show situation.  Most people are pretty shallow, and don't really know that much about important issues.  Do we really want John Doe's vote on vaccines, or Education guidelines, or environmental protection, or Russian sanctions, or fed rates?

[resolution]

[andi9899]

Aug 3, 2022 20:14:38 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Aug 3, 2022 20:02:16 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The results in KS just affirms my belief that just because you vote for a certain party doesn't mean you align with everything on that party's agenda.  I don't know why we don't have more popular votes on issues rather than letting a small group of elected officials make these calls. 

Because then that small group loses its outsized power.  If we could vote directly, what do we need them for?  

But, seriously, if we went to direct voting on issues, it could quickly turn into a reality show situation.  Most people are pretty shallow, and don't really know that much about important issues.  Do we really want John Doe's vote on vaccines, or Education guidelines, or environmental protection, or Russian sanctions, or fed rates?

This is a very different issue. I feel like I definitely have the right to vote on something that directly affects me and may be a matter of life or death for me. The other things matter too, but this definitely hits home.

[billisonboard]

Aug 5, 2022 8:35:48 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 3, 2022 20:14:38 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Because then that small group loses its outsized power.  If we could vote directly, what do we need them for?  

But, seriously, if we went to direct voting on issues, it could quickly turn into a reality show situation.  Most people are pretty shallow, and don't really know that much about important issues.  Do we really want John Doe's vote on vaccines, or Education guidelines, or environmental protection, or Russian sanctions, or fed rates?

This is a very different issue. I feel like I definitely have the right to vote on something that directly affects me and may be a matter of life or death for me. The other things matter too, but this definitely hits home.

And another issue is different, may be life or death, and hits home for someone else. And yet another issue is different, may be life or death, and hits home for them. And it goes on and on. One example that comes to mind is just about every expenditure in the military budget could fit for our country's service members. How do we decide where to draw the line?