Here we go again. 19 children & 2 teachers dead

[raeoflyte]

May 27, 2022 13:39:47 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

May 27, 2022 11:43:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

And I want some anti-tank weapons, I mean, being necessary to the security of a free State and all.

Dammit. You don't have the same commute I do right? I have always wanted a tank to "get OVER" the traffic jams around here. But if others drive around with ant-tank weapons that is not going to do me a who!e lot of good  


But back to the subject matter: I read a moment ago that in a school district in NY no adults are allowed on school premises without a prior appointment. Yet another band-aid for a disease we refuse to cure.

And completely unenforceable. I wentbto ds school at least 4 times this year because ds had medical needs the school can't handle. Nothing big or crazy or dangerous, just outside of their scope. What are they going to do - send him home every time that happens?

[justme]

May 27, 2022 13:45:10 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

May 27, 2022 13:40:36 GMT -5 justme said:

I'm trying to think of anything where if you own 43 of them you've not entered an obsessive and possibly unhealthy place.

I'm sure there's something, but even owning 43 pairs of shoes sounds ridiculous and I know I have more than 20 lol.

I am totally obsessed with shoes, and probably have about 100 pairs. Boots, sandals, heels, flats, etc.  My mom used to collect shot glasses from her travels and had about 200 before we moved her and she got rid of them.  So owning a collection of antique guns makes a bit of sense to me.  But guns are expensive, and AR15s aren't antiques. So it still doesn't really seem normal.

But you admit you're obsessed with it! I don't think scgal would say she's obsessed with guns.

I also did the math - if you add in boots (that I can only wear for like 3 months a year) and sandals (hello Florida) I'm probably close to 43 lol.

[billisonboard]

May 27, 2022 13:45:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

May 27, 2022 13:39:47 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Dammit. You don't have the same commute I do right? I have always wanted a tank to "get OVER" the traffic jams around here. But if others drive around with ant-tank weapons that is not going to do me a who!e lot of good  


But back to the subject matter: I read a moment ago that in a school district in NY no adults are allowed on school premises without a prior appointment. Yet another band-aid for a disease we refuse to cure.

And completely unenforceable. I wentbto ds school at least 4 times this year because ds had medical needs the school can't handle. Nothing big or crazy or dangerous, just outside of their scope. What are they going to do - send him home every time that happens?

Was there not conversation prior to your arrival?

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 13:36:29 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I have a really hard time with the mental health trope. I know a lot of people who struggle with mental health and none of them would ever consider hurting children.

We don't argue that abusers only hurt their partners and children because of mental health issues. It's about control and power. People who think they deserve power and control.over other people. I'm not sure everything that causes that but when we're talking about better mental health treatment I don't see how it's going to reach those people. They don't think they're the problem - it's everyone else.

i think you just touched on something important there, rae.  power and control.

that is a very interesting possibility as to what the problem is.

i think you are onto something.

[raeoflyte]

May 27, 2022 14:11:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 27, 2022 13:45:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

And completely unenforceable. I wentbto ds school at least 4 times this year because ds had medical needs the school can't handle. Nothing big or crazy or dangerous, just outside of their scope. What are they going to do - send him home every time that happens?

Was there not conversation prior to your arrival?

There was, but nothing planned or scheduled. If prior appointment includes - I'll be there in 5 minutes then I wonder how they're operating now and what kind of change that rule would make. You can't get into my kids school without going through the office so they know who is on site.

[teen persuasion]

May 27, 2022 13:40:36 GMT -5 justme said:

May 27, 2022 13:30:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

well, in this case it is a bit weirder than that.
guns are a recreational and hunting tool.
who owns 43 jet skis?

i mean, seriously.
it is BIZARRE how far people take this (rather dangerous) hobby.

I'm trying to think of anything where if you own 43 of them you've not entered an obsessive and possibly unhealthy place.

I'm sure there's something, but even owning 43 pairs of shoes sounds ridiculous and I know I have more than 20 lol.

I'm sure I have way more than 43 knitting needles, and likely more than 43 crochet hooks.  But that's because there are so many different sizes, and with the knitting needles different styles (double pointed, pins, circular of various lengths) and they come in sets (up to 5 with sock needles).

And in theory someone could get killed with my knitting needles...

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 14:25:23 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

May 27, 2022 13:40:36 GMT -5 justme said:

I'm trying to think of anything where if you own 43 of them you've not entered an obsessive and possibly unhealthy place.

I'm sure there's something, but even owning 43 pairs of shoes sounds ridiculous and I know I have more than 20 lol.

I'm sure I have way more than 43 knitting needles, and likely more than 43 crochet hooks.  But that's because there are so many different sizes, and with the knitting needles different styles (double pointed, pins, circular of various lengths) and they come in sets (up to 5 with sock needles).

And in theory someone could get killed with my knitting needles...

you're thinking too hard.
i have over 43 box end wrenches.
but i work in a machine shop.
i need them for work.

what kind of work requires (43) guns?
other than maybe running a private militia.

edit: funny story.  i needed a pair of wrenches last week- mismatched.  11/16 and 5/8.  those are really weird sizes.  the more common ones are 9/16 and 3/4.  i had exactly ONE of each.  i was using them for a pair of jam nuts on a 7/16" threaded rod.  also an unusual size.

[billisonboard]

May 27, 2022 14:20:44 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

May 27, 2022 14:11:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Was there not conversation prior to your arrival?

There was, but nothing planned or scheduled. If prior appointment includes - I'll be there in 5 minutes then I wonder how they're operating now and what kind of change that rule would make. You can't get into my kids school without going through the office so they know who is on site.

I see it as no one is allowed through any door unless staff knows prior to seeing their smiling face. Newer schools are designed to allow access only to the office but even that is only one additional killing room before getting to the rest of the school.

[hurley1980]

Col. Steven McCraw said 19 officers waited outside a classroom door because a commanding officer "believed there was a barricaded subject and kids weren’t at risk."

Oh BS!  Here they come with the lies to cover their own asses. So much for good guys with guns!

www.huffpost.com/entry/uvalde-official-wrong-decision-mass-shooter_n_6290fb06e4b0edd2d0237b63#

[Deleted]

I can see why some people might have more than 1 gun. Shot gun for home defense, since everybody knows what that click clack sound means, and hopefully an intruder would run if they heard it. Maybe a large pistol for home defense, maybe a smaller pistol to carry. Whatever kind of guns hunters use and prefer. I can even see different calibers if they enjoy going to the range. 

I think 43 guns is excessive though.

I also can’t think of a legit reason for the average person to own AK’s and AR’s.

The first range I use to go to, you couldn’t even practice with those in there. That doesn’t mean all ranges are like that though, idk because I’ve never been interested in those kinds of guns.

[hurley1980]

In a quote from the article above.  This is so heartbreaking, they could have saved 8-9 of those kids that were killed!

In one of the 911 calls that took place just after noon, a girl said 12 people in her classroom were dead but that eight to nine students were still alive. Minutes later, at 12:21 p.m., an operator could hear three shots fired in the background. Police outside the room still didn’t act, according to the new timeline provided by McCraw.

What the hell were the police waiting for?  I am so furious by this!

[raeoflyte]

May 27, 2022 14:31:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 27, 2022 14:20:44 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

There was, but nothing planned or scheduled. If prior appointment includes - I'll be there in 5 minutes then I wonder how they're operating now and what kind of change that rule would make. You can't get into my kids school without going through the office so they know who is on site.

I see it as no one is allowed through any door unless staff knows prior to seeing their smiling face. Newer schools are designed to allow access only to the office but even that is only one additional killing room before getting to the rest of the school.

I'm shocked any school isn't already operating that way. Our elementary school is old, but the doors are locked and you can't get in without the office physically letting you in. And it's been that way since we started there 7 years ago.

I guess highschools with an open campus maybe? But I'd be shocked if there are elementary or middle schools that you can just walk into anymore.

[scgal]

May 27, 2022 12:49:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I would like scgal to explain why we can tell people they cannot use drugs, but we can't tell her she cannot own guns. Everyone wants different freedoms

simple try reading the constitution

[NastyWoman]

Well, it has taken a bit but here we are: news.yahoo.com/texas-police-admit-to-failed-shooting-response-say-kids-in-room-with-gunman-called-911-183121952.html

An admission that the (TRAINED) .good guys with guns basically f*cked up and did NOT EVEN follow protocol.

The statement that really gets me though is McCraw's answer to whether the parents whose children died were owed an apology. "If I thought it' help I would apologize". Excuse me for saying so but this to me reads as since we already fucked up there is no use for ne to apologize. what an asShole...

[pulmonarymd]

May 27, 2022 15:34:12 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 27, 2022 12:49:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I would like scgal to explain why we can tell people they cannot use drugs, but we can't tell her she cannot own guns. Everyone wants different freedoms

simple try reading the constitution

Where is the prohibition on drugs in the constitution? Maybe you should read it. The Constitution is not some holy document. It was written by men, who are fallible. They could have gotten it wrong.

More importantly, it is a 18th century document. I doubt the could have envisioned the leaps in firepower that have occurred in 250 years. But that is too complex for you to consider. The founders put in a process to amend it. Even they knew that it would need to change with the times. They didn't allow people like you to vote or own property. WOuld you like to return to those days.

[pulmonarymd]

May 27, 2022 15:35:18 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Well, it has taken a bit but here we are: news.yahoo.com/texas-police-admit-to-failed-shooting-response-say-kids-in-room-with-gunman-called-911-183121952.html

An admission that the (TRAINED) .good guys with guns basically f*cked up and did NOT EVEN follow protocol.

The statement that really gets me though is McCraw's answer to whether the parents whose children died were owed an apology. "If I thought it' help I would apologize". Excuse me for saying so but this to me reads as since we already fucked up there is no use for ne to apologize. what an asShole...

Good to know. I guess if I ever truly screw up and someone dies, I don't need to apologize either. Asshole!

[happyhoix]

May 27, 2022 11:43:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 27, 2022 11:36:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

my approach has always been the opposite of this.

if i have the right to bear arms, i want anti-aircraft weapons.

And I want some anti-tank weapons, I mean, being necessary to the security of a free State and all.

I want a trebuchet.

A really big one.

Fetchez la vauche.

[scgal]

May 27, 2022 13:20:17 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

May 27, 2022 12:38:09 GMT -5 scgal said:

When I said mental health is the issue I think I should have said the mental state they are in at the time. I also would like to know why we are so sick, but I doubt owning guns are the reason. 

There were just over 19k homicides in 2020 and 38000 traffic deaths. I know I know the gun allows the assailant the ability to kill many at a time. A assailant can drive thru a playground and do just about as much carnage. I posted before I'm all about more through background checks. Nobody should tell me that I can't have my AR12 or AR15 or any of the 43 other firearms we have.

But it's OK to outlaw abortions? Are you fucking kidding me?? Owning assault rifles meant for military use (meaning mass murder) is a right but healthcare isn't?

How old are your kids? How can you watch this bullshit and bring up your rights? Have your kids ever been in lock down? Known any kids in an actual school shooting? Guns and ammo found at your kids school during class My answer to all of those is yes. I don't care at all about your "rights" to own assault rifles. Those rights are killing children. Actual living, breathing, functional children.

Both of my kids are grown and have children of their own. Yes my youngest was in a lockdown. As far as my rights to own an assault rifle I don't have any neither does anyone here. Ignorance is bliss I will be happy to teach you. The AR does not stand for assault rifle it stands for armalite after the company that made it. Assault rifles have been banned since the 1930's. 

So many people want to jump on the subject less guns, harder to get guns etc... The fact is normal people don't go fucking killing other people especially children. I don't want to hear about the amount of rounds in a magazine either. I can change out the clips on my sig 9 and knock out 45 rounds in less than 3 min and I'm slow. It's not the weapon it is the user. 

[scgal]

May 27, 2022 15:45:30 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

May 27, 2022 15:34:12 GMT -5 scgal said:

simple try reading the constitution

Where is the prohibition on drugs in the constitution? Maybe you should read it. The Constitution is not some holy document. It was written by men, who are fallible. They could have gotten it wrong.

More importantly, it is a 18th century document. I doubt the could have envisioned the leaps in firepower that have occurred in 250 years. But that is too complex for you to consider. The founders put in a process to amend it. Even they knew that it would need to change with the times. They didn't allow people like you to vote or own property. WOuld you like to return to those days.

There is no amendment for guns. I wasn't speaking on drugs btw

[scgal]

May 27, 2022 13:28:50 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Anyone who own 43 guns is NOT pro-life. The very concept is ludicrous. Pull my other leg.

Not one of my guns ever killed a person, child, baby or fetus. A person who had an abortion can't say that. 

[pulmonarymd]

May 27, 2022 15:54:33 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 27, 2022 15:45:30 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Where is the prohibition on drugs in the constitution? Maybe you should read it. The Constitution is not some holy document. It was written by men, who are fallible. They could have gotten it wrong.

More importantly, it is a 18th century document. I doubt the could have envisioned the leaps in firepower that have occurred in 250 years. But that is too complex for you to consider. The founders put in a process to amend it. Even they knew that it would need to change with the times. They didn't allow people like you to vote or own property. WOuld you like to return to those days.

There is no amendment for guns. I wasn't speaking on drugs btw

Avoiding the subject. Maybe you should read the whole second amendment. It talks about a well regulated militia. That would suggest that they were open to regulation, and the right is not absolute. Unless you think everyone should be able to carry a machine gun.

[pulmonarymd]

May 27, 2022 15:57:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 27, 2022 13:28:50 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Anyone who own 43 guns is NOT pro-life. The very concept is ludicrous. Pull my other leg.

Not one of my guns ever killed a person, child, baby or fetus. A person who had an abortion can't say that. 

A fetus is not a person, no matter how many times you say it.

And one of your guns hasn't killed anyone yet.

[pulmonarymd]

May 27, 2022 15:52:30 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 27, 2022 13:20:17 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

But it's OK to outlaw abortions? Are you fucking kidding me?? Owning assault rifles meant for military use (meaning mass murder) is a right but healthcare isn't?

How old are your kids? How can you watch this bullshit and bring up your rights? Have your kids ever been in lock down? Known any kids in an actual school shooting? Guns and ammo found at your kids school during class My answer to all of those is yes. I don't care at all about your "rights" to own assault rifles. Those rights are killing children. Actual living, breathing, functional children.

Both of my kids are grown and have children of their own. Yes my youngest was in a lockdown. As far as my rights to own an assault rifle I don't have any neither does anyone here. Ignorance is bliss I will be happy to teach you. The AR does not stand for assault rifle it stands for armalite after the company that made it. Assault rifles have been banned since the 1930's. 

So many people want to jump on the subject less guns, harder to get guns etc... The fact is normal people don't go fucking killing other people especially children. I don't want to hear about the amount of rounds in a magazine either. I can change out the clips on my sig 9 and knock out 45 rounds in less than 3 min and I'm slow. It's not the weapon it is the user. 

So how do we prevent"abnormal(in your words)" people from getting guns?

Stopping to reload gives precious time to respond or escape. High capacity rounds for ordinary people is ridiculous. And guns were designed with one purpose-to kill. High capacity weapons make that more efficient. You are awfully quick to defend your rights as a gun owner. How about your responsibilities? Are you willing to offer any solutions, or do we have to routinely see elementary school children killed so you do not have your precious rights even minimally curtailed

[scgal]

May 27, 2022 13:47:05 GMT -5 justme said:

May 27, 2022 13:45:10 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

I am totally obsessed with shoes, and probably have about 100 pairs. Boots, sandals, heels, flats, etc.  My mom used to collect shot glasses from her travels and had about 200 before we moved her and she got rid of them.  So owning a collection of antique guns makes a bit of sense to me.  But guns are expensive, and AR15s aren't antiques. So it still doesn't really seem normal.

But you admit you're obsessed with it! I don't think scgal would say she's obsessed with guns.

I also did the math - if you add in boots (that I can only wear for like 3 months a year) and sandals (hello Florida) I'm probably close to 43 lol.

Maybe but I also couldn't imagine owning 43 pairs of shoes (btw its 45 guns total). Not all guns are the same some are very valuable haven't been shot in years. The rest shot every year some every month. I wouldn't think twice about which shoes i'm going to wear with an outfit but I will think which holster is better and which gun would be better if I had to use it. 

As far as my collection that is nothing compared to some I know. A good friend of mine retired early a couple of years ago he was mainly a rifle collector. He told me he sold approx 10% of his collection for 100k to fund his early retirement. 

Just because you people cannot fathom it does not make it wrong

[happyhoix]

May 27, 2022 13:36:29 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I have a really hard time with the mental health trope. I know a lot of people who struggle with mental health and none of them would ever consider hurting children.

We don't argue that abusers only hurt their partners and children because of mental health issues. It's about control and power. People who think they deserve power and control.over other people. I'm not sure everything that causes that but when we're talking about better mental health treatment I don't see how it's going to reach those people. They don't think they're the problem - it's everyone else.

I have a totally unscientific theory about young male mass murderers.

There is a point where teens of both sexes are almost more hormones than flesh and bones. Girls and boys act out differently when they are like this - boys tend to random violence when angry. Like my very mellow engineer son who is now 33 put his foot through the wall of the stairwell once, during and argument with his dad, and through his bedroom wall once, when he had an issue with a video game. They’re hot headed, they don’t think through to the likely consequences, they just get irrationally mad.

A kid who lived at the other end of the neighborhood from us got mad when he dad took his cell phone away for bad grades. He got his dad’s gun and shot himself in the head.

What if these mass murderers are just furious hormonal kids with access to assault weapons? What if we ban the purchase of assault weapons except for adults over a certain age, and then only if stored as used at secure gun ranges? Maybe we make sure the angry hormonal young men don’t have access at all? Let them see how much damage they can do with a hunting rifle or pistol.

[scgal]

May 27, 2022 15:58:15 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

May 27, 2022 15:54:33 GMT -5 scgal said:

There is no amendment for guns. I wasn't speaking on drugs btw

Avoiding the subject. Maybe you should read the whole second amendment. It talks about a well regulated militia. That would suggest that they were open to regulation, and the right is not absolute. Unless you think everyone should be able to carry a machine gun.

I know exactly what it says. The 2a is what it is. Why do you think there's no federal ban huh? 

[raeoflyte]

May 27, 2022 15:52:30 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 27, 2022 13:20:17 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

But it's OK to outlaw abortions? Are you fucking kidding me?? Owning assault rifles meant for military use (meaning mass murder) is a right but healthcare isn't?

How old are your kids? How can you watch this bullshit and bring up your rights? Have your kids ever been in lock down? Known any kids in an actual school shooting? Guns and ammo found at your kids school during class My answer to all of those is yes. I don't care at all about your "rights" to own assault rifles. Those rights are killing children. Actual living, breathing, functional children.

Both of my kids are grown and have children of their own. Yes my youngest was in a lockdown. As far as my rights to own an assault rifle I don't have any neither does anyone here. Ignorance is bliss I will be happy to teach you. The AR does not stand for assault rifle it stands for armalite after the company that made it. Assault rifles have been banned since the 1930's. 

So many people want to jump on the subject less guns, harder to get guns etc... The fact is normal people don't go fucking killing other people especially children. I don't want to hear about the amount of rounds in a magazine either. I can change out the clips on my sig 9 and knock out 45 rounds in less than 3 min and I'm slow. It's not the weapon it is the user. 

So the guns the shooter used were hunting weapons? You're right - I don't know guns. No interest. But why on earth would anyone need to fire off 45 rounds in a matter of minutes. That's not hunting - it's murder. At a shooting range - sure. I'm sure it can be "fun". I have some violent past times myself so I can get that. But why should anyone have that at home?

If my child dies, I don't care if they're killed by someone normal or not. I don't know why that would ever matter.

[pulmonarymd]

May 27, 2022 16:05:52 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 27, 2022 15:58:15 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Avoiding the subject. Maybe you should read the whole second amendment. It talks about a well regulated militia. That would suggest that they were open to regulation, and the right is not absolute. Unless you think everyone should be able to carry a machine gun.

I know exactly what it says. The 2a is what it is. Why do you think there's no federal ban huh? 

1 filibuster
2 a supreme court that is unwilling to read the constitution correctly. Just like you think Roe vs Wade was decided incorrectly, I think the gun control cases have been decided incorrectly.

Legal does not mean right, as you have stated repeatedly when you were talking about Roe vs Wade

[justme]

May 27, 2022 16:04:06 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 27, 2022 13:47:05 GMT -5 justme said:

But you admit you're obsessed with it! I don't think scgal would say she's obsessed with guns.

I also did the math - if you add in boots (that I can only wear for like 3 months a year) and sandals (hello Florida) I'm probably close to 43 lol.

Maybe but I also couldn't imagine owning 43 pairs of shoes (btw its 45 guns total). Not all guns are the same some are very valuable haven't been shot in years. The rest shot every year some every month. I wouldn't think twice about which shoes i'm going to wear with an outfit but I will think which holster is better and which gun would be better if I had to use it. 

As far as my collection that is nothing compared to some I know. A good friend of mine retired early a couple of years ago he was mainly a rifle collector. He told me he sold approx 10% of his collection for 100k to fund his early retirement. 

Just because you people cannot fathom it does not make it wrong

I didn't say I couldn't fathom it. I said it's obsessive. And fucking morbid. "I like to collect things that kill people. My hobby is making sure I can kill as many things as I want." You cannot separate the fact that guns are explicitly designed to kill from the gun. Nor from your hobby and desire to possess them.

Your hobby is to own things that are designed kill people.

I'd find it just as bizarre as someone going on about the 45 different lethal poisons they have in their house and then discuss how fast they can disseminate said poison.

[justme]

May 27, 2022 16:05:44 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

May 27, 2022 13:36:29 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I have a really hard time with the mental health trope. I know a lot of people who struggle with mental health and none of them would ever consider hurting children.

We don't argue that abusers only hurt their partners and children because of mental health issues. It's about control and power. People who think they deserve power and control.over other people. I'm not sure everything that causes that but when we're talking about better mental health treatment I don't see how it's going to reach those people. They don't think they're the problem - it's everyone else.

I have a totally unscientific theory about young male mass murderers.

There is a point where teens of both sexes are almost more hormones than flesh and bones. Girls and boys act out differently when they are like this - boys tend to random violence when angry. Like my very mellow engineer son who is now 33 put his foot through the wall of the stairwell once, during and argument with his dad, and through his bedroom wall once, when he had an issue with a video game. They’re hot headed, they don’t think through to the likely consequences, they just get irrationally mad.

A kid who lived at the other end of the neighborhood from us got mad when he dad took his cell phone away for bad grades. He got his dad’s gun and shot himself in the head.

What if these mass murderers are just furious hormonal kids with access to assault weapons? What if we ban the purchase of assault weapons except for adults over a certain age, and then only if stored as used at secure gun ranges? Maybe we make sure the angry hormonal young men don’t have access at all? Let them see how much damage they can do with a hunting rifle or pistol.

I posit that it's not that male teenagers act that way because of their male hormones and instead because society says it's acceptable of boys to destroy things when they're upset. Just like it's not acceptable for girls to destroy things.

BTW it's only mass shootings at schools that are overwhelming young. If you look at all mass shootings those under 25 only are about 25%. (From the source I found at politifact)