Overturning Roe v Wade?

[tallguy]

And seriously...Pro-choice is not "for abortion". Many that are pro-choice are against abortion personally, and those that aren't still don't WANT to have one.

I fully agree that "pro-abortion" is one of the most ridiculous labels ever contrived, and one of our most ridiculous posters here used to use it regularly.  My thought on the matter is this:

I have always said that the two main tenets undergirding pretty much every one of my political beliefs are the importance of individual rights and individual liberties, and equal protection under the law for all.  Anything that violates either of these two is almost necessarily invalid.  Abortion must be protected as an individual right, whether I like the idea or not.  Here is why:
The anti-abortion position rests solely on the idea that it is "killing babies."  Unfortunately, that is only a personal or religious belief.  There is nothing in medicine or science to prove that one way or the other.  Medical science cannot now answer the question of when life begins, and may never be able to answer that question.  Accordingly, the law cannot legitimately state a position either way on that question.  Life cannot be presumed to exist as the basis for law, and nobody's personal or religious belief can be used as the sole justification for law.  A pregnant woman is undeniably human.  A zygote is not.  At some point a fetus can be said to be alive in every sense, but it is the height of hubris to presume to know exactly when that is, and to suggest that it is at conception is self-serving in the extreme.  

I can only make the decision for myself, and I have chosen to be pragmatic on the issue.  I regard a fetus as potential life, and consider it to be alive at the point of viability.  Is that correct?  Who knows?  Not me, and realistically not anybody else.  I am glad I was never touched by the possibility of abortion, and never had to deal with it.  I don't know how I would have handled it, but know absolutely that nobody outside of the partners should have a voice in the decision.  The rights of a living person must always be protected, particularly over the potential rights of a potential person.  That does not in any way mean that I believe abortion to be a good thing, either in general or for me personally.  It must be legal however because my personal beliefs can never be used to infringe the rights of someone else.  Any attempt to limit the rights of the woman here is wrong.  If medical science some day proves that life begins at conception then talk to me.  The anti-abortionists will still lose the argument, but at least they would be holding a defensible position.  They do not currently do so.  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

May 5, 2022 12:35:48 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

And yes, of course it can be said that the unwanted children who have been forced to have been born can be put up for adoption. But who will adopt all of them? In all seriousness, it's not that simple. The majority of those children will end up in the foster care system, and that is *rarely* a good outcome. What's the magic solution to that?

Yeah I don't see conservatives rushing to adopt.

Infact I see them going after LBGTQ and minorities and people of other faiths and preventing them.from being able to adoptif the agency is "against" them on grounds of religious views.

Doesn't seem very family values tome.

If it's about preventing pregnancy comprehensive sex Ed and unrestricted access to all.forms of BC are the way to go.studies have proven this.

It's about punishment. Even.though I cannot make a baby without sperm I'm the one held accountable.

If men were held accountable it'd be a totally different story.

Did you know most teen pregnancies are by much older men? Oh but it's the 14 year old who should have kept her legs closed.

[swamp]

count me in as another one who is "meh" about being here. 

I was an ooops.  My mother told me as much.   She already had a 5 and a 7 year old when I was born, and as far as she was concerned, she was done with kids.   I wasn't outright abused, but I wasn't exactly nurtured either. 

I also want to discuss the mental effect of pregnancy on a woman's mental health.  I had two very much wanted pregnancies.  I also have some PTSD issues from being pregnant because it was such a miserable sick experience for me.  I also had severe post partum depression.   I literally could not have handled another pregnancy, to the point i would have considered an abortion if I became pregnant again.  I'm older, upper middle class, financially secure, and have a very supportive network and allegedly could deal with another pregnancy.  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

And consider the rather not insignificant economic impacts on women for having kids.

I get mommy tracked which can ripple across decades as my salary stays low and in turn less into SS and less into retirement.

I stayed in low paying academia because of the flexibility. Which was "my choice" but that fails to take into account corporate America is designed by men for men with the expectation the little woman is taking care of all that household crap.

I did that for the first nine years. DH finally had to pony up in the pandemic and holy shit the sexist backlash from him and his mother.

So I got pissed last night and said until you face a entire nation trying to economically suppress you to the point where you have no choice but to give up power and be dependent on someone else you can.STFU.

[Opti]

May 5, 2022 13:01:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

And seriously...Pro-choice is not "for abortion". Many that are pro-choice are against abortion personally, and those that aren't still don't WANT to have one.

I fully agree that "pro-abortion" is one of the most ridiculous labels ever contrived, and one of our most ridiculous posters here used to use it regularly.  My thought on the matter is this:

I have always said that the two main tenets undergirding pretty much every one of my political beliefs are the importance of individual rights and individual liberties, and equal protection under the law for all.  Anything that violates either of these two is almost necessarily invalid.  Abortion must be protected as an individual right, whether I like the idea or not.  Here is why:
The anti-abortion position rests solely on the idea that it is "killing babies."  Unfortunately, that is only a personal or religious belief.  There is nothing in medicine or science to prove that one way or the other.  Medical science cannot now answer the question of when life begins, and may never be able to answer that question.  Accordingly, the law cannot legitimately state a position either way on that question.  Life cannot be presumed to exist as the basis for law, and nobody's personal or religious belief can be used as the sole justification for law.  A pregnant woman is undeniably human.  A zygote is not.  At some point a fetus can be said to be alive in every sense, but it is the height of hubris to presume to know exactly when that is, and to suggest that it is at conception is self-serving in the extreme.  

I can only make the decision for myself, and I have chosen to be pragmatic on the issue.  I regard a fetus as potential life, and consider it to be alive at the point of viability.  Is that correct?  Who knows?  Not me, and realistically not anybody else.  I am glad I was never touched by the possibility of abortion, and never had to deal with it.  I don't know how I would have handled it, but know absolutely that nobody outside of the partners should have a voice in the decision.  The rights of a living person must always be protected, particularly over the potential rights of a potential person.  That does not in any way mean that I believe abortion to be a good thing, either in general or for me personally.  It must be legal however because my personal beliefs can never be used to infringe the rights of someone else.  Any attempt to limit the rights of the woman here is wrong.  If medical science some day proves that life begins at conception then talk to me.  The anti-abortionists will still lose the argument, but at least they would be holding a defensible position.  They do not currently do so.  

I don't like the when life begins arguments because I think they miss the point. Many things are alive, but it doesn't make them human or viable for the long term. Eggs are alive, sperm is alive, until of course they aren't. 

The forced birth people would be a bit more sympathetic if they were out there adopting unwanted babies and doing things for under funded and under cared for children. 

[pulmonarymd]

The better argument is when an artificial womb is invented, and a pregnancy can be gestated there. Then, all the pro-lifers can fund these pregnancy farms and  adopt all these children who would have been aborted anyway, and the rest of us can get on with our lives.

[weltschmerz]

May 4, 2022 22:28:59 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 4, 2022 19:06:16 GMT -5 scgal said:

Ok here goes I don't expect anyone here to agree with me, and I may get a time out but you asked.
When a child is born the parent or parents have an legal obligation to keep the child alive in other words don't kill the kid. When a woman becomes pregnant and a heartbeat is found a voluntary non medical necessary abortion should no longer be allowed. If it is don it should be classified as murder. 
Now the bullshit my body my choice boo hoo crap. It is our choice to have sex, protect ourselves the best we can, etc those are choices but once pregnant and a heartbeat is found it is no longer your body the only choice is to make sure we protect the baby.  

You're right....I don't agree with you.  You want to force women to have children they don't want.  You know what happens to these children?  Many are burned with cigarettes, starved, beaten, left in hot cars, or thrown in dumpsters. They're not nurtured like wanted children are.
Unwanted children tend to do poorly in life.  The jails and mental hospitals are full of them. I worked with them as adults.

Pregnancy intention also has long-term influences on child health. Children born after unintended pregnancy showed a cognitive delay at 3-years-old, more behavioral problems at 5- and 7-years-old, and increased problem behaviors and substance use at 14-years-old than their counterparts.

bmcpregnancychildbirth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12884-015-0505-4

SC, I noticed you didn't address my post at all.

Study after study shows that unwanted children generally do not do well in life. When I worked in psychiatry, we had many patients who were not wanted as babies, and subsequently had mental disorders.   The worst was D, who beat his mother to death with a hammer, because she never wanted him and never nurtured him. He now resides in the Pinel Institute for the Criminally Insane.
You want more of these people?

[justme]

May 5, 2022 12:20:38 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Can the congress pass a law allowing abortion? If so why isn’t this being discussed?
Seems it wouldn’t be unconstitutional as the draft opinion just seems to say there is nothing about abortion in the constitution

It is. The daily show talked about it last night. But to pass it they'd have to get rid of the filibuster.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Well women just need to keep their legs closed and consider every known and unknown outcome possible and be prepared before engaging in basic biological act. If you can't emotionally and financially handle everything and anything no sex for you.

And also make sure they behave and act appropriately so men don't get tempted to forcibly take what we won't give.

The other half of the equation is free to do.as they please with no consequences.

Bullshit it's about protecting the unborn. It's all about the above and maintaining the power they.see as their birthright.

[justme]

May 5, 2022 13:01:20 GMT -5 Tiny said:

May 5, 2022 6:49:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

Let me ask you a question. Would you rather your mother had an abortion so you were never born? If you have kids they wouldn't be here grand kids etc. I find it amazing the ones that want are for abortion are already born. 

No I don't turn a blind eye to kids being tortured, but abortion is not the answer to stopping that either. 

As far as my religion sorry that's not it not very religious. I'm not pro-life either just anti- abortion

There are several programs out there to help with housing, food and medical. I do think there should be more i'm all for it.

You are using a fallacy to make your argument. Kind of like arguing that abortion is bad because the next Einstein or Mother Theresa might be aborted (no ever mentions that the next Gacy or Hitler might be aborted.... go figure.) It's arguing "after the fact".

FWIW: If I was aborted it wouldn't matter to me. I would not have been aware that it even happened. Do you remember anything from before you were conceived or before you were born??

ADDED: 
Have you thought about how  I wouldn't have been born  if  my mom had become pregnant a month earlier or a month later (a different egg and different sperm).   
Have you thought about that for yourself? 

Should I be concerned that I've never had children - all my eggs have been "wasted" - all those lives that never were...  is that a tragedy?  

Do you believe in Destiny? If my mom had had an abortion - would I some how been cheated out of fulfilling my "destiny"? (and what does that even say about free will... what a can of worms...)

I like the counterpoint that the forced mom could have been the next Einstein if she she wasn't forced to derail her life and birth an unwanted child.

You can't talk about the supposed potential of a fetus and ignore the very real potential of a woman.

[justme]

May 5, 2022 12:47:52 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

May 5, 2022 12:25:37 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

There is something called the filibuster. You seriously believe republicans wouldn't filibuster this? You know this, you are just trying to score some cheap political point.

Honestly no didn’t know 60 votes needed thought 51
I do think abortion should be legal certainty first trimester and medical, rape incest non viable fetus etc past the first trimester
But not partial birth abortion at almost full term and believe this might already be illegal?
You seem too ready to call Cheap political points

How exactly do you classify medical? Does mental health count? What if it's the fetus that has issues but could survive in some way? Who is codifying into law exactly what is an OK medical reason vs one that's not? And similarly how do you codify the rape exception? Can't be based on conviction (takes too long, too few), trial (takes too long, too few), hell even setting a trail (takes too long, too few). Even going by arrests would leave too many rape victims without access.

I don't know why it's too damn much to allow women to make medical decisions for themselves.

[Tiny]

May 5, 2022 14:18:34 GMT -5 justme said:

I like the counterpoint that the forced mom could have been the next Einstein if she she wasn't forced to derail her life and birth an unwanted child.

You can't talked about the supposed potential of a fetus and ignore the very real potential of a woman.

I like that focus on the woman's life experience and contributions to society/mankind. It's more 21st Century.
My example "argument" is from decades ago - because that "but the next genius/whatever might be aborted! Abortion is bad!" was an argument I often heard back then.

[weltschmerz]

Canada has NO abortion laws, and yet, we have far fewer abortions. We make it easier for women to have children. We grant them job security, a year of paid maternity leave, baby bonuses of $500-$600 a month, and affordable daycare, at $8.35 a day, so women can go back to work.

Tell me, SC, are you wiling to pay more in taxes for this, or do you just insist that women should be forced to have babies they don't want, and to hell with them after they're born?

[scgal]

May 5, 2022 12:51:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 5, 2022 10:06:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

until it is outlawed by CONGRESS.  do you really think that is not coming?  

how quaint.

scgal has indicated she does not support federal involvement in the matter so I have to assume she would oppose such a move.

you are correct

[Opti]

Article happened to pop up on cost of having a baby in the US. Very different from some other countries.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/guess-how-much-it-cost-me-to-have-a-baby-this-new-mom-is-sharing-the-price-to-give-birth-and-outrageous-is-an-understatement/ar-AAWX7YH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=96d39bcd312141bb854d0dfffbd33a60


According to Business Insider, the average cost of having a baby without complications in the United States is between $10,000 and $30,000.

[scgal]

May 5, 2022 12:51:03 GMT -5 imawino said:

May 5, 2022 9:18:00 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Why do you think it is a state issue?

This is a good question which went ignored.  scgal if you believe a woman's right to an abortion is not for the federal government to decide, why is it for the state government to decide?  What makes one body of government superior to the other in determining what is best for women?  Any why would state to state inconsistency across the nation be beneficial to the health and wellbeing of women and children?

Sorry wasn't purposely ignoring anything. 
There is no reason it should be a federal issue.

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

May 5, 2022 14:58:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 5, 2022 12:51:03 GMT -5 imawino said:

This is a good question which went ignored.  scgal if you believe a woman's right to an abortion is not for the federal government to decide, why is it for the state government to decide?  What makes one body of government superior to the other in determining what is best for women?  Any why would state to state inconsistency across the nation be beneficial to the health and wellbeing of women and children?

Sorry wasn't purposely ignoring anything. 
There is no reason it should be a federal issue.

It shouldn't be an issue for any government of any kind. This is a private medical issue between a woman and her doctor.

[scgal]

May 5, 2022 14:34:36 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Canada has NO abortion laws, and yet, we have far fewer abortions. We make it easier for women to have children. We grant them job security, a year of paid maternity leave, baby bonuses of $500-$600 a month, and affordable daycare, at $8.35 a day, so women can go back to work.

Tell me, SC, are you wiling to pay more in taxes for this, or do you just insist that women should be forced to have babies they don't want, and to hell with them after they're born?

Ok lets see I see the logic here make it easier to have children bonus 600 month. Affordable daycare or not people sitting home cashing in. What is Canada unemployment rate now 5.5 % about 60% higher that the U.S. Yea Canada got it going on. 

[scgal]

May 5, 2022 14:06:36 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 4, 2022 22:28:59 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

You're right....I don't agree with you.  You want to force women to have children they don't want.  You know what happens to these children?  Many are burned with cigarettes, starved, beaten, left in hot cars, or thrown in dumpsters. They're not nurtured like wanted children are.
Unwanted children tend to do poorly in life.  The jails and mental hospitals are full of them. I worked with them as adults.

Pregnancy intention also has long-term influences on child health. Children born after unintended pregnancy showed a cognitive delay at 3-years-old, more behavioral problems at 5- and 7-years-old, and increased problem behaviors and substance use at 14-years-old than their counterparts.

bmcpregnancychildbirth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12884-015-0505-4

SC, I noticed you didn't address my post at all.

Study after study shows that unwanted children generally do not do well in life. When I worked in psychiatry, we had many patients who were not wanted as babies, and subsequently had mental disorders.   The worst was D, who beat his mother to death with a hammer, because she never wanted him and never nurtured him. He now resides in the Pinel Institute for the Criminally Insane.
You want more of these people?

Lets kill a bunch of babies so they don't become criminals. 

[weltschmerz]

May 5, 2022 14:55:31 GMT -5 Opti said:

Article happened to pop up on cost of having a baby in the US. Very different from some other countries.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/guess-how-much-it-cost-me-to-have-a-baby-this-new-mom-is-sharing-the-price-to-give-birth-and-outrageous-is-an-understatement/ar-AAWX7YH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=96d39bcd312141bb854d0dfffbd33a60


According to Business Insider, the average cost of having a baby without complications in the United States is between $10,000 and $30,000.

 A pre-term birth can cost a million dollars. Don't all women have a miilion in change under their couch cushions?

www.ctvnews.ca/canada/million-dollar-baby-canadians-handed-1m-bill-after-woman-gives-birth-in-u-s-1.2107020?cache=lyphoblxpdpmw%2F7.580685

[weltschmerz]

May 5, 2022 15:09:56 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 5, 2022 14:34:36 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Canada has NO abortion laws, and yet, we have far fewer abortions. We make it easier for women to have children. We grant them job security, a year of paid maternity leave, baby bonuses of $500-$600 a month, and affordable daycare, at $8.35 a day, so women can go back to work.

Tell me, SC, are you wiling to pay more in taxes for this, or do you just insist that women should be forced to have babies they don't want, and to hell with them after they're born?

Ok lets see I see the logic here make it easier to have children bonus 600 month. Affordable daycare or not people sitting home cashing in. What is Canada unemployment rate now 5.5 % about 60% higher that the U.S. Yea Canada got it going on. 

You didn't answer the question. Would you be willing to pay more in taxes to have fewer abortions? Yes or no?

[andi9899]

May 5, 2022 10:44:59 GMT -5 kadee79 said:

And I'll post this tweet without comment....just don't be drinking anything with the first joke!

That's hilarious!

[pulmonarymd]

May 5, 2022 15:19:37 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 5, 2022 15:09:56 GMT -5 scgal said:

Ok lets see I see the logic here make it easier to have children bonus 600 month. Affordable daycare or not people sitting home cashing in. What is Canada unemployment rate now 5.5 % about 60% higher that the U.S. Yea Canada got it going on. 

You didn't answer the question. Would you be willing to pay more in taxes to have fewer abortions? Yes or no?

They think by outlawing it, there will be fewer abortions, so they will not need to pay more in taxes. The increase in other social costs does not worry them because they do not care about them

[imawino]

May 5, 2022 14:58:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 5, 2022 12:51:03 GMT -5 imawino said:

This is a good question which went ignored.  scgal if you believe a woman's right to an abortion is not for the federal government to decide, why is it for the state government to decide?  What makes one body of government superior to the other in determining what is best for women?  Any why would state to state inconsistency across the nation be beneficial to the health and wellbeing of women and children?

Sorry wasn't purposely ignoring anything. 
There is no reason it should be a federal issue.

Responding without actually answering is purposefully ignoring the question.  It's certainly up to you to answer or not, but writing words to claim that you aren't ignoring the question whilst continuing to blatantly ignore it seems like a needless waste of effort.  

[justme]

May 5, 2022 14:34:36 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Canada has NO abortion laws, and yet, we have far fewer abortions. We make it easier for women to have children. We grant them job security, a year of paid maternity leave, baby bonuses of $500-$600 a month, and affordable daycare, at $8.35 a day, so women can go back to work.

Tell me, SC, are you wiling to pay more in taxes for this, or do you just insist that women should be forced to have babies they don't want, and to hell with them after they're born?

Wait, you're telling me that access to birth control and actual, good support for those that choose to have kids leads to fewer abortions? Get out of here! Who knew that?


(Spoiler, most of the rest of the developed world)

[mollyc]

May 5, 2022 15:09:56 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 5, 2022 14:34:36 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Canada has NO abortion laws, and yet, we have far fewer abortions. We make it easier for women to have children. We grant them job security, a year of paid maternity leave, baby bonuses of $500-$600 a month, and affordable daycare, at $8.35 a day, so women can go back to work.

Tell me, SC, are you wiling to pay more in taxes for this, or do you just insist that women should be forced to have babies they don't want, and to hell with them after they're born?

Ok lets see I see the logic here make it easier to have children bonus 600 month. Affordable daycare or not people sitting home cashing in. What is Canada unemployment rate now 5.5 % about 60% higher that the U.S. Yea Canada got it going on. 

The unemployment rate in Canada in March 2022 is reported as 5.3%. “It was the lowest rate on record since comparable data became available in 1976…” -tradingeconomics.com

5.5% unemployment doesn’t mean much negatively if 5.3% is a record low. It also has nothing to do with the number of people voluntarily staying home so I’m unclear what point you are trying to make here.

Also often when Weltz says Canada, it would be more accurate to say Quebec. Their governments have a long history for former religious reasons and always cultural reasons for supporting families. This doesn’t always hold true in other Provinces or Territories. Federally “baby bonuses” are about $570/month for under 6 and about $480/month for 6-17 assuming your income is low enough to get the maximum amount. Not exactly a windfall. BC is short 126,000 $10/day daycare spots so having a subsidy currently doesn’t mean much here.

Maybe it’s because I come from long lines of “peasant class” regardless of the continent or I’ve read a lot of really really old published diaries but I don’t know of a time in history when people didn’t have sex outside of marriage or consider unwanted children a burden.

Again how does this decision make things better?

[scgal]

May 5, 2022 15:19:37 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 5, 2022 15:09:56 GMT -5 scgal said:

Ok lets see I see the logic here make it easier to have children bonus 600 month. Affordable daycare or not people sitting home cashing in. What is Canada unemployment rate now 5.5 % about 60% higher that the U.S. Yea Canada got it going on. 

You didn't answer the question. Would you be willing to pay more in taxes to have fewer abortions? Yes or no?

The problem is what the question represents. I sure as hell don't think Canada is anything to look up to

[scgal]

May 5, 2022 15:25:13 GMT -5 imawino said:

May 5, 2022 14:58:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sorry wasn't purposely ignoring anything. 
There is no reason it should be a federal issue.

Responding without actually answering is purposefully ignoring the question.  It's certainly up to you to answer or not, but writing words to claim that you aren't ignoring the question whilst continuing to blatantly ignore it seems like a needless waste of effort.  

ok let me rephrase. I don't see why it is a federal issue. I'm not avoiding. Please enlighten me why it should be

[pulmonarymd]

May 5, 2022 16:04:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

May 5, 2022 15:19:37 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

You didn't answer the question. Would you be willing to pay more in taxes to have fewer abortions? Yes or no?

The problem is what the question represents. I sure as hell don't think Canada is anything to look up to

Maybe you do not think it is anything to look up to. But Canada beats the US on almost every quality of life and health measure including life expectancy, and is also a more equal and fair society. I wonder why you think the US should be looked up to. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

The US has some of the worst infant and maternal survival rates in the developed world.

Conservatives sure are invested in making sure the baby is born but fuck it and the mother once it exits the uterus.

After all it was her choice to get pregnant therefore it's her duty to face the consequences.

Unless that consequence involves choosing abortion in that case he'll no that decision belongs to a white dude so old he shoots dust out his dick and alerts his eyes when women.expose an ankle.