buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Nov 2, 2021 8:07:29 GMT -5
We are below the average income (2020), above the median income, and in the 9.9% based on this article. There's no way we can live like the top 10% on our income. Our average is about 62% based on 2020 numbers. I didn't look at what our "real" income is based on using the rental property income for improvements rather than personal spending. (I'm using real to mean what we actually have to spend on ourselves.)
I guess I'm saying that we're fortunate to be in our situation, but we also did a lot of scrimping and saving to get here. The market increases over the past eight years has helped us tremendously, but that could also be wiped out with another recession. While it would be an interesting exercise to see how that would impact us in the net worth percentages, I'm not that anxious to find out what that would mean for us on income. I lived in my car for a short while, so I'm fairly familiar with what it means to be without. I never wanted to revisit that time. It still took me years to recognize that living on my credit cards was flirting with a repeat if I ever lost my job. So I empathize and have sympathy for people in that same boat. Having said that, I struggle with being called "rich" because of going without a lot of things I could have spent my money on and being fortunate to have had the stock returns I've had. I watched people who made less than I did drive new cars, go out every weekend, and buy the latest/greatest. It was a struggle to not give in and to keep my long term goals in mind. I saw my parent's retirement and didn't want to be in the same boat. I feel for those who are below 300% FPL. That's the tough spot in my opinion. That's where you are struggling just to pay the rent and bills every month without spending any or very little extra. Those above it, not so much sympathy. That is where choices can be made and some long term planning can happen. I find FPL a more meaningful definition of financial status than net worth.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Nov 2, 2021 8:21:22 GMT -5
100% this! Poor people aren't vacationing at Disney. What a ridiculous and out of touch assumption! I live in a nice area and still see real poverty every day. Homelessness has skyrocketed. Tent cities behind businesses, along highways, or anywhere somewhat out of sight. Not bad people, not lazy people. Poor people living in a newly unaffordable area. I must have missed something. I didn't see where anyone said the poor were going to Disney. Catching up on 5 pages of thread reads like a "back in my day" and "if only everyone lived like me". That poor choices accounts for most people's problems,, ignoring the luck and privilege that usually has a huge impact on how much can be saved.. And I'm crabby.
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raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
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Post by raeoflyte on Nov 2, 2021 8:24:58 GMT -5
The talk of what is 'poor' versus 'less well off' or 'lower middle class' is interesting. The categories have changed so radically. My parents grew up poor, as in no indoor plumbing but living in the Northeast, in town, not a rural area. But they were children during the Depression, when poverty was normal. My mother's parents were typical, I think. Her father was a stone mason, unemployed then hired to work on a public works project, building bridges and tunnels on the highway system. Her mother had a college degree and worked as an elementary school teacher with special needs children in a time when there were no special ed programs. So she earned a steady income, albeit not a high income. My grandfather just after they married bought a plot of land and built their house himself. So they were not without shelter. They grew their own food, and bartered for some, too. The children (4 of them) wore patched and repatched clothing and had one pair of shoes apiece. But they ate, were clothed and had shoes. They just did not have options. Vacations meant they visited family within a few hours' driving distance. My grandparents separated for over 10 years when my grandfather, now working in a factory, took up drinking. So they lived only on my grandmother's income. My grandmother took in a niece during her teen years, to attend a good school that the town offered.
My parents each earned nursing degrees. My mother worked and my father got a business degree while working, too. They had 5 kids in 6 years start to finish. We, growing up, got the half popcicles. We ate at restaurants a few times a year. We did vacation--camping trips on long weekends and weeks, and in a rented cottage on the Cape for a week or two each summer. No hotels, ever, and no airplanes. My siblings and I all graduated from college. Plus we all worked as children, earning our own spending money from the age of 10 on. Paper routes, to start. Golf caddying, library pages, baker's helpers, working for friends of my parents, babysitting, fetching and hauling. Before we were old enough we got allowances. I remember distinctly getting my 2 cents per week as a kindergartner. My parents also grew their own vegetables, bought day-old bread from the bakery, visited farms for fruits and some meats. My mother could feed all 7 of us on a single can of Spam when needed. She made all our meals from scratch and sewed my sister's and my clothing until we were closing in on teen years. She laundered my father's shirts, cooking them in bluing and ironing with starch, when he worked as a hospital administrator. And they saved every dime, and invested. She worked as a school nurse. When my father was drafted (they needed hospital administrators in Vietnam) my parents figured out how they could manage. When the army changed its mind my father already had the plane ticket to report to training in Texas.
My parents were incredibly frugal. My father would sharpen vegetable peelers on his whetstone when they got dull rather than spend the 19 cents to buy new ones. When those were no longer able to be sharpened, my left-handed sister got them. When the toaster quit popping up we pushed up the toast by hand; no new toaster for another several years, while the old one kept toasting. My father and brothers did 100% of car maintenance and repairs. They completely renovated their house, including replumbing and renovating the kitchen, adding a half bath, moving windows and building a foyer with a closet in 100-year-old house. They built a garage beside the house, pouring the concrete floor and framing it in. They roofed and re-roofed the house themselves. Our clothes were patched when we were small children. My oldest brother got the bike, to be handed down. We girls were handed down clothes and toys from my mother's cousin.
My father's mother got social security at 65, so she was saved from poverty in her old age, although she had only paid into it for about 10 years.
We were definitely not poor nor even working class, but professional class, working and living as though they were much less well off. My parents did well enough with their investments that my mother retired in her late 40's and when my father was laid off in his middle 50's he didn't have to work again for pay. They did not pay for the most part for their children's college educations. They helped.
I think all these things were typical of children of the Depression era. My parents and their children all benefited from ability, race, heterosexuality and the certainty that we could earn what we wanted by working hard enough. We were lucky.
Just some thoughts. The decades since then have seen enormous changes. The truly poor don't appear at a glance less well off than the solidly middle class, with the ubiquitous cheap clothing and casual styles. Basic food is generally available to all, as is a roof over head for all but the totally disenfranchised. But people often have no real assets now. Kids need real help with college costs, and largely need college to get a job that pays a living wage. Social services are much more widely available yet the need is great.
I think when my parents were children the bottom 9-9 was actually more like the middle 70; poverty was typical. They made it to the top 9-9. Their children are all in the top 20. Three are in the 9-9 despite the great recession and Reaganomics. As I said, we are lucky.
Now I'm babbling so I'll stop. I bet many of you have similar stories of your own families, if not your parents, then your grandparents.Neither of my parents had indoor plumbing until they were teens, but they were farmers. Not rich, but needs always met, owned their own land, and could help others. My dad says they were poorer than the city kids. But I'd argue still not truly poor.
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Lizard Queen
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103/2024
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Post by Lizard Queen on Nov 2, 2021 9:52:51 GMT -5
My parents were from Eastern Europe. Dad was WW2 refugee as a child, who came to this country as a young adult with a suitcase and a debt to his aunt for the ticket here. Mom met him here when they were in their 30's after living under communism with all the lack that that entailed. Dad had worked his way up to engineer, and made decent money for the time, but kept the same modest < 1100 sf home that his first wife bought before she died. Mom was a self-taught seamstress who sewed some of our clothes, and would definitely patch them if needed. She did a few alterations for neighbors for extra money. In the old country, she used to knit sweaters to sell at a local shop for extra money. I don't think either has indoor plumbing in the old country, but that was a different time. Mom loved to shop garage sales, and would often buy stuff to send back to the old country. She tried to buy clothes for us, but that was hard since we went to a private school and already lived much more simply than our classmates.
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Value Buy
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The 9-9
Nov 2, 2021 10:04:43 GMT -5
Post by Value Buy on Nov 2, 2021 10:04:43 GMT -5
I was shocked to find out my wife and I are in the 9-9 club due to investments and housing. We are retired and do not see us as really well off. Yes we have investments and property. And we pay federal and state taxes on everything.
What we do not have is earned income from working.
What we do have is money going out for: federal and state income tax, paying on all income from Dividends, profit on stock sales if any, partial SS STATE INCOME TAXES due to making over the minimum amount allowed to not be taxed as well as taxes on a small pension and all withdrawls from IRAS.
House insurance went up $155 when we got the new rate last week Property taxes-went up $410 for the new yr. Car insurance Dental care New toll roads/bridges replacing previously free roads and bridges with extremely high increases yr over yr And where does the money come from to pay all of it? Reducing investments....... so we do not feel well off/rich.
And now for the first time in a decade, food inflation, gasoline inflation, all types of homeowner's insurance inflation, rising state and local tax rates........... I know I missed other things, but this is enough to make one feel "unrich"
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MN-Investor
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Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:44 GMT -5
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Post by MN-Investor on Nov 2, 2021 11:33:04 GMT -5
Ok, I did a little research on popsicles. The original popsicle, patented in 1923, was a single stick invention like today's popsicles. The double popsicle - i.e., the one with two sticks - was created during the Depression. It was advertised as a way that parents could buy one treat for a nickel and share it between two children. Double stick popsicles ended in May, 1986. The manufacturer stated that mothers found dividing the popsicles to be messy, and a single young child, on a warm day (which is when they were popular), could not finish a double popsicle before it started melting. Single popsicles just made more sense at that point.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Nov 2, 2021 11:50:56 GMT -5
Niece-in-law's grandmother in Odessa, Ukraine still lives without running water. Her part of town is made up of the elderly who have lived in their homes a long time. They go stand in line daily for their 2 buckets of water. Then this 96 year old woman carries it home.
Of course, there is a lot of vodka involved.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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The 9-9
Nov 2, 2021 12:30:50 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Nov 2, 2021 12:30:50 GMT -5
Ok, I did a little research on popsicles. The original popsicle, patented in 1923, was a single stick invention like today's popsicles. The double popsicle - i.e., the one with two sticks - was created during the Depression. It was advertised as a way that parents could buy one treat for a nickel and share it between two children. Double stick popsicles ended in May, 1986. The manufacturer stated that mothers found dividing the popsicles to be messy, and a single young child, on a warm day (which is when they were popular), could not finish a double popsicle before it started melting. Single popsicles just made more sense at that point. Thank you! the more you know!
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steph08
Junior Associate
Joined: Jan 3, 2011 13:06:01 GMT -5
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Post by steph08 on Nov 2, 2021 12:34:15 GMT -5
Ok, I did a little research on popsicles. The original popsicle, patented in 1923, was a single stick invention like today's popsicles. The double popsicle - i.e., the one with two sticks - was created during the Depression. It was advertised as a way that parents could buy one treat for a nickel and share it between two children. Double stick popsicles ended in May, 1986. The manufacturer stated that mothers found dividing the popsicles to be messy, and a single young child, on a warm day (which is when they were popular), could not finish a double popsicle before it started melting. Single popsicles just made more sense at that point. This is so fascinating. But I had double stick popsicles as a kid in the 80s and 90s, and my kids have them today. However, they are "popsicles" not Popsicles. The off-brands have continued the double stick tradition while Popsicle discontinued them (we always call them "twin pops"). I just read that Popsicle brought back the double stick in 2021 after a viral Twitter campaign though, so you all go out and buy some and not share!
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