Rukh O'Rorke
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 16:51:53 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 30, 2021 16:51:53 GMT -5
This board seems to think the bottom 90% should live without any indulgences so they can put away every dime, no matter how small. Pretty bleak existence, I would prefer for people to earn an income to be able to go to Disney world or sports games and save for retirement, but that seems like the realm of top 5%. Let them eat cake. I have to agree with you there. If childcare and edcuation are provided, college provided, Medical and LTC provided, Can't everyone pay for themselves? You receive care and education when you're young, you pay taxes through your working years, and you receive medical and LTC when/if you need it.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Oct 30, 2021 17:20:04 GMT -5
Yep taxes are collected from working middle class people, sent to state and federal governments (portion ‘disappears’) then state and federal workers paid from this taxes portion out the money to people deemed eligible for the money. Eligibility requires filling out forms, sending in gas, electric etc bills (more folks using the tax money) then finally to the person or family eligible for the benefit
The more benefits being paid out, the more money is removed from the taxes paid by a person or family that might be just a little more fortunate Maybe minimum wage benefit would be more efficient if all the programs and people working in these programs would be eliminated? My sister was disabled her entire life and I helped by applying for property tax relief, electric and gas help, SNAP food benefits etc All of which had people sending out and collecting various forms every year . Took hours of my time also I was grateful for the help but seems so inefficient and uses up a good portion of the state and federal funds going to these programs
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 30, 2021 17:27:00 GMT -5
This board seems to think the bottom 90% should live without any indulgences so they can put away every dime, no matter how small. Pretty bleak existence, I would prefer for people to earn an income to be able to go to Disney world or sports games and save for retirement, but that seems like the realm of top 5%. Let them eat cake. I don't think anyone means one should have NO indulgences, we all have our hills to die on, but when it's one thing on top of another for decades, especially when it involves debt for these indulgences, don't complain about not being able to pay for your kid's college or having to work longer than you wanted to.
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jerseygirl
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 18:05:57 GMT -5
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Post by jerseygirl on Oct 30, 2021 18:05:57 GMT -5
I had a secretary who bought lunch every day, smoked, had her nails and hair done weekly, drove a new car as did her husband and they had gone bankrupt twice. She often said that her kids would have to get a sports scholarships for college, not saving at all. They both made good salaries but spent it all Live for the present only and you’ll never get ahead, maybe ‘invest’ in the lottery?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 18:46:08 GMT -5
This board seems to think the bottom 90% should live without any indulgences so they can put away every dime, no matter how small. Pretty bleak existence, I would prefer for people to earn an income to be able to go to Disney world or sports games and save for retirement, but that seems like the realm of top 5%. Let them eat cake. Story time…. Back in the dinosaur age, after my ex-husband and I separated, I had to find a job because I had been a SAHM. When I found a job, I was working from 7pm-3:30am. I had to take my children out of the house every night so I could go to work. They got confused, didn’t know where they lived. One morning when I picked them up after work, DD (about 4yo at the time) asked me “We’re going to your house now”? I cried, because she didn’t say “our” house. She was also calling my Grandmother “Momma”, I guess because that’s where she spent a lot of her nights. I cried about that too. I was making $6.60/hour, minimum wage was $4.25. I was so stressed out about my children and the hours I worked, that I told my Mom if I couldn’t find another job in another department or a whole ‘nother employer, I was just going to quit. I didn’t have shit anyway, since I didn’t make much money. I lived in a house my Grandmother bought when it was brand new, when my Mom was a child. It had been paid off for decades, and she’d kept it as a rental property, and so her kids and Grandkids would always have somewhere to live if we needed it. I just paid the taxes and insurance and took care of the house, ultimately upgrading some things before I moved out. But where it was located had become the ‘hood….. a real ‘hood. 2 managers of 2 different departments at my job had been trying to get me to come work for them, and I finally agreed to work for one, whose department had better hours and paid more. We got paid by how fast we keyed, and I made at least $7.40/hour, sometimes as much as $9. But by then, my children were in daycare, $400/month. And I had “stolen” the car back from my ex because he wasn’t making the payments (even though he made a lot more money than I did), my name was on the loan annnnd the job I’d gotten after we separated just happened to be with the bank that had financed the car. My job was at risk with the missed payments. So, I “stole” the car and made the payments myself. But that was even more money out of my puny paycheck. I’d been getting around before that because my Grandmother let me keep and use my recently deceased grandfather’s old raggedy car. I had to touch 2 wires together to roll down the window and the a/c didn’t work kind of raggedy. But it was reliable as far as getting where I needed to go. My ex-husband had also stopped paying child support by then. Then he quit his job and told the courts he only made $4.25/hour even though he’d just bought a house with his GF that he later married. And divorced a few years later. I was frustrated. I appreciated my Grandmother letting me live in her house, but I didn’t want to raise my children in the ‘hood. I felt like I wasn’t getting anywhere even though I went to work every day. Some days, when I got off work, I’d go key for a few hours for the other manager that had wanted me to come work for him, to make some extra money. On Saturdays, I would go key in yet another department to make some extra money. But I still wasn’t getting anywhere. I just wanted to say fuck it and be a welfare queen or whatever, because I couldn’t make enough money to get my babies out of the ‘hood anyway. But my pride wouldn’t let me do that. So I enrolled in some evening classes at the local university. They didn’t count as college credits, I was just trying to get my mind right to go back to college, even though I had NO idea how I would pay for it. Real talk, I had no idea at the time that student loans even existed. If I’d known that, I probably would’ve stayed in college when I was younger. I seriously thought paying out of pocket was the only possibility. My college story….. I’d been accepted at the local university, but didn’t even know I would be able to go until close to registration time, when my Mom said she’d pay for my first semester out of the insurance money she’d just received from when her crackhead husband had set her car on fire. Idk that he really did set it on fire, but I’ve always thought so. She’d married him when I was in the 11th grade, not knowing he was a crackhead and that was a whole ‘nother mess of a story, including me wanting to kill either him or me. My Grandmother paid my tuition the second semester. I was working and paid for my books and things myself. Then an ex-boyfriend started stalking me. The last straw for me was when I got out of class and got to my Mom’s car to leave campus and there was a dead rose on the driver’s seat, with a note saying “when you least expect it”. The police said there was nothing they could do until/unless he actually hurt me. That was before stalking laws were passed. So I was afraid to go to class after that, because he knew my schedule. I dropped out that semester and never went back because I didn’t have any money. Anyway, back to being a struggling single Mom, while I was taking the evening classes, I got called to interview for my current job. Obviously, I got hired. The bank I’d been working at had given us stock options and one was going to be vested just a few months after I started my new job. So I went part time at the bank and worked there 2 days a week, after I got off from my new job. The same day the stock options vested, I sold it all and pocketed $10k and then I resigned. 3 years later, after scrimping and saving and planning, I bought my house and got my babies out of the ‘hood. I don’t *like* working, but I don’t mind working if I get to have and do stuff. I did mind working and feeling like I still couldn’t even provide a place for my children to live where it was safe for them to play outside, where there wasn’t what DS thought was firecrackers all the time, but was really gunshots. I really, really wanted to give up sometimes, because what was the point? I still lived in the ‘hood, and I was still broke. Even now, as much as I worry about retiring, if I have to never have or do anything I enjoy during my working years, so I can be ok in retirement, I would have zero motivation to go to work. Going to work day in and day out for decades and not having a little fun with some of what you earn along the way, or not being able to live somewhere decent where you feel halfway safe, is BULLSHIT. Judge me however, and think whatever about me, but I’ve learned from experience that I’m not built to do that. A lot of the things you all were taught or just knew somehow, to improve life for yourselves, I wasn’t taught and didn’t know until I was in my 30’s. I mean, I knew college was a way to get to a good place in life, but I didn’t know you could get loans to pay for it. I went to a college prep high school, but the only time I ever talked to a guidance counselor was when I got inducted into the National Honor Society, and that “talk” ended up being me having a major meltdown because of what was going on at home with my Mom’s crackhead husband, so that time was spent trying to calm me down. He never abused me or anything, our household was just in constant turmoil and my Mom was losing (lost) everything, her whole middle class lifestyle that she’d built, and I hated him. My Mom didn’t go to college, and nobody told me I could get loans to pay for college. I would’ve gone to college clear across the country if I’d known that. That was what I really wanted, to go as far away as I could, and I could’ve done it because I was very smart on paper. Our mailbox was always stuffed full of stuff from colleges. I think my life would be very different if I’d known it was possible. The only thing that keeps me from going too far down that road, thinking about it, is that I would never wish for a life without my children and I wouldn’t have those specific children if I’d gone away to college, so it is what it is. Anyway, I’m done rambling now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 19:25:53 GMT -5
This board seems to think the bottom 90% should live without any indulgences so they can put away every dime, no matter how small. Pretty bleak existence, I would prefer for people to earn an income to be able to go to Disney world or sports games and save for retirement, but that seems like the realm of top 5%. Let them eat cake. I don't think anyone means one should have NO indulgences, we all have our hills to die on, but when it's one thing on top of another for decades, especially when it involves debt for these indulgences, don't complain about not being able to pay for your kid's college or having to work longer than you wanted to. The thing is, what is just common sense for most of the people on these boards, a lot of people honestly don’t “get”. I’m always honest about how much I’ve learned from you all, and I’m not exactly a dummy, but there was a lot of stuff I just did not know. The only thing I’d learned growing up was to not do what my Mom did, and how important it was to pay bills on time, because good credit was important. When my world fell apart when I had all that stuff going on with my children and I had all those bills in the aftermath, I tried even harder to learn more about money and stuff. I tried to ask questions of relatives that were ok financially, without trying to talk numbers, so it wouldn’t seem like I was just being nosy. And what I learned from that was that I didn’t know the right questions to ask, because I didn’t even know what I didn’t know. I made budgets all the time. And they never worked, and I could never figure out why. It wasn’t until a while after finding you all that I finally understood why. My budgets were based just on bills. Literally only money I owed creditors and things like my light bill. I’d never accounted for all the other things I spent money on. Finally understanding that, changed everything. I kinda cringe saying all that now, but it’s just the truth. I can’t be the only person in the world that was as clueless as I was about some things. All that to say that I tend to not be quick to judge people harshly, because surely I’m not the only person in the world that didn’t know so many things. At least I hope not, because that would mean I was really a special kind of dummy. When I learned better, I did better, and maybe it’s because I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, I’d like to believe that a lot of other people would do better too, if they knew better. It’s not like we’re taught about personal finance in school. Well, we weren’t when I was in school. Imo, personal finance is often about more than just simple math. When I finally understood how to manage my money better after I found you all, I had to change some of my thinking and in some ways change my life. I wanted to do everything in my power to never be in that situation again, and I kinda had to fix myself and my life, to fix my money. That was a big deal. And it’s also why I believe with my whole heart, and have said on these boards, that sometimes money issues are really just a symptom of other issues. One of my “issues” was pure ignorance. In hindsight, even with all that I’ve learned since then, I still think that those horrible years would’ve still been very bad financially, even if I’d been better prepared. But I’m the kind of person that tries to see if there’s something I need to learn when bad things happen, and trying to learn from all that SHIT led me to you and the other posters here, and I learned a lot of good stuff about managing my money.
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 19:52:40 GMT -5
Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 30, 2021 19:52:40 GMT -5
I don't think anyone means one should have NO indulgences, we all have our hills to die on, but when it's one thing on top of another for decades, especially when it involves debt for these indulgences, don't complain about not being able to pay for your kid's college or having to work longer than you wanted to. The thing is, what is just common sense for most of the people on these boards, a lot of people honestly don’t “get”. And this is why I can't get on board with bashing Dave Ramsey. While most on this board have long since outgrown his advice, I think a LOT of people need his simplistic Baby Steps and obnoxious "WAKE THE HELL UP!" attitude to get on the right track. I wasn't taught anything about money management growing up. Heck, I basically was on my own from age 12 on. I mean, I had a house to stay in, and frozen pizzas in the fridge, but no parent around to speak of for sometimes a couple weeks at a time. It was actually a pretty sweet life for a teen. But I was a natural saver, and in my late teens/early 20's I got really obsessed with personal finance books and read a ton of them plus got a subscription to Money and Kiplingers. I offered to PAY my 19 year old to read some and so far not biting. He has pretty bad money management skills despite me talking to him about this stuff for years now. I think personality has a lot to do with it.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Oct 30, 2021 20:04:28 GMT -5
Would be great if kids had a course in personal finance in HS
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 30, 2021 20:19:59 GMT -5
This board seems to think the bottom 90% should live without any indulgences so they can put away every dime, no matter how small. Pretty bleak existence, I would prefer for people to earn an income to be able to go to Disney world or sports games and save for retirement, but that seems like the realm of top 5%. Let them eat cake. In my book, Disney and tickets to professional sports games are really upper middle class opportunities. Not small indulgences. Life when I was growing up was a lot different than people expect today. We had very few new clothes. Most were hand me downs from family and friends. My wardrobe was jeans with patches on the knees and shirts with patches on the elbows. Clothes without patches were reserved for church. We didn’t have a TV in the house. However, we were able to watch TV at friends houses once in a while. Four of us shared a bike. We didn’t have our own bedrooms. We three boys shared a room. I didn’t have a room to myself until after I graduated college. I don’t think I had a meal in a restaurant, not even McDonalds, until I was a teenager. Indulgences were things like half a popsicle once or twice over a summer. Dad was a teacher. As family finances went, we were a middle class family of the 60’s. So, today I find myself a 9.9er. Wondering how poor kids today have so many things we grew up without. If a trip to Disney is the yardstick by which you determine if a kids lives in poverty or not, in my day, today’s poor kid would have been rich beyond my ability to imagine.
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Deleted
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 20:26:31 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 20:26:31 GMT -5
The thing is, what is just common sense for most of the people on these boards, a lot of people honestly don’t “get”. And this is why I can't get on board with bashing Dave Ramsey. While most on this board have long since outgrown his advice, I think a LOT of people need his simplistic Baby Steps and obnoxious "WAKE THE HELL UP!" attitude to get on the right track. I wasn't taught anything about money management growing up. Heck, I basically was on my own from age 12 on. I mean, I had a house to stay in, and frozen pizzas in the fridge, but no parent around to speak of for sometimes a couple weeks at a time. It was actually a pretty sweet life for a teen. But I was a natural saver, and in my late teens/early 20's I got really obsessed with personal finance books and read a ton of them plus got a subscription to Money and Kiplingers. I offered to PAY my 19 year old to read some and so far not biting. He has pretty bad money management skills despite me talking to him about this stuff for years now. I think personality has a lot to do with it. It’s awesome that you turned out to be the woman you are given you description of the “sweet” life you had as a teen. I absolutely think personality has a lot to do with it, especially if all you have to work with is what goes on inside your head because no one has taught you anything about the subject. I’m a spender. My savings are all on automatic. I would never save anything if I had to manually make the transactions. And I have to play some mind games with myself to try to stay on track. Back when I was getting it together, I *convinced* myself that the checking account that is my “spending” account was all the money I had in the world. I could spend it down to zero, but if zero came before payday, I was just f’d up until I got paid again. I have another checking account at the same bank. It is my “bill” account, but I’ve never used it to pay bills. I transfer the money to my spending account and pay the bills from it. My savings accounts each have a specific purpose. One is my EF, one is where I save to spend (my irregular, but known or planned expenses), things like that. I don’t do well saving, just to be saving. I do better thinking my saving is for a specific purpose. It’s all kind of convoluted, but the end result is that since my spending account is “all the money I have in the world” and even if I do something crazy with it, which I give myself permission to do if I’m willing to suffer the consequences, I’ve still added money to my savings, and I still have money to pay my bills.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Oct 30, 2021 20:29:25 GMT -5
Every budget I tried to do never worked until I attended Financial Peace University in 2011 and learned the zero-dollar budget in that curriculum. That and a general snowballing of debts is the only that I still utilize but it's an excellent tool. Every other budget was about allocating rounded amounts to categories rather than spending your paycheck before it hits the bank account. Many people plan only out of which paycheck they'll pay their bills and that's it.
@pinkcshmere, you're not alone in not knowing a lot of things until you found the boards. I wasn't focused on paying down debt until I found the WIRR in 2007 and that was after I spent $16,000 on art on a cruise. <face palm>
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 20:36:51 GMT -5
Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 30, 2021 20:36:51 GMT -5
Disagree with the lower 90% can never get ahead Just from reading posts here many have been in the lower 90% but now in the 9.9, me among them And the lower 90% would stand more of a chance if so many inner city kids weren’t stuck in failing schools US still has lots of opportunities for many OK. I don't disagree that some amount of the 90% can get ahead... but really how MANY of the 90% can actually move up into the 10% with a little bit of effort? Well, technically none right? If half of the 90% move into the 10% it's not the 10% anymore. The bar just keeps moving up.
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tallguy
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 20:44:44 GMT -5
Post by tallguy on Oct 30, 2021 20:44:44 GMT -5
The thing is, what is just common sense for most of the people on these boards, a lot of people honestly don’t “get”. And this is why I can't get on board with bashing Dave Ramsey. While most on this board have long since outgrown his advice, I think a LOT of people need his simplistic Baby Steps and obnoxious "WAKE THE HELL UP!" attitude to get on the right track. I wasn't taught anything about money management growing up. Heck, I basically was on my own from age 12 on. I mean, I had a house to stay in, and frozen pizzas in the fridge, but no parent around to speak of for sometimes a couple weeks at a time. It was actually a pretty sweet life for a teen. But I was a natural saver, and in my late teens/early 20's I got really obsessed with personal finance books and read a ton of them plus got a subscription to Money and Kiplingers. I offered to PAY my 19 year old to read some and so far not biting. He has pretty bad money management skills despite me talking to him about this stuff for years now. I think personality has a lot to do with it. Yes, there are a lot of people who are financially illiterate. ANYTHING that helps them is a good thing, without question. Where I have such a problem with Ramsey is, first, that he teaches suboptimal information under the apparent belief that his "people" cannot handle better advice. If you truly want to help people, tell them both ways and why one is actually better, then let the person decide which they can actually do for themselves. Second, his investing advice is generally terrible, and it is made worse by sending people to his approved set of advisors to make money for himself and the advisors.* * My only experience with Ramsey is what I have read, so do not know for certain that this is true. It would fit with what I have read though.
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nidena
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 20:46:51 GMT -5
Post by nidena on Oct 30, 2021 20:46:51 GMT -5
With the overpricing of the housing market this past year, how will that effect a household's net worth?
I know that many people paid more for their houses than the houses appraised for so these folks are starting out underwater from the get.
If they also have more car note than vehicle worth, they're still in the negative.
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nidena
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 20:50:41 GMT -5
Post by nidena on Oct 30, 2021 20:50:41 GMT -5
And this is why I can't get on board with bashing Dave Ramsey. While most on this board have long since outgrown his advice, I think a LOT of people need his simplistic Baby Steps and obnoxious "WAKE THE HELL UP!" attitude to get on the right track. I wasn't taught anything about money management growing up. Heck, I basically was on my own from age 12 on. I mean, I had a house to stay in, and frozen pizzas in the fridge, but no parent around to speak of for sometimes a couple weeks at a time. It was actually a pretty sweet life for a teen. But I was a natural saver, and in my late teens/early 20's I got really obsessed with personal finance books and read a ton of them plus got a subscription to Money and Kiplingers. I offered to PAY my 19 year old to read some and so far not biting. He has pretty bad money management skills despite me talking to him about this stuff for years now. I think personality has a lot to do with it. Yes, there are a lot of people who are financially illiterate. ANYTHING that helps them is a good thing, without question. Where I have such a problem with Ramsey is, first, that he teaches suboptimal information under the apparent belief that his "people" cannot handle better advice. If you truly want to help people, tell them both ways and why one is actually better, then let the person decide which they can actually do for themselves. Second, his investing advice is generally terrible, and it is made worse by sending people to his approved set of advisors to make money for himself and the advisors.* * My only experience with Ramsey is what I have read, so do not know for certain that this is true. It would fit with what I have read though. You're not incorrect about DR. The past couple years he's branched out into promoting specific real estate agents and life insurance agents so there's a small monopoly in the works for the hard-core DR cult. I follow the DR page on FB and find it interesting to see how vehement his followers are about NO DEBT...ALL DEBT IS BAD DEBT.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 30, 2021 20:53:05 GMT -5
OK. I don't disagree that some amount of the 90% can get ahead... but really how MANY of the 90% can actually move up into the 10% with a little bit of effort? Well, technically none right? If half of the 90% move into the 10% it's not the 10% anymore. The bar just keeps moving up. Actually the exact number can move in as those in move out. Fun with math.
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 20:58:42 GMT -5
Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 30, 2021 20:58:42 GMT -5
And this is why I can't get on board with bashing Dave Ramsey. While most on this board have long since outgrown his advice, I think a LOT of people need his simplistic Baby Steps and obnoxious "WAKE THE HELL UP!" attitude to get on the right track. I wasn't taught anything about money management growing up. Heck, I basically was on my own from age 12 on. I mean, I had a house to stay in, and frozen pizzas in the fridge, but no parent around to speak of for sometimes a couple weeks at a time. It was actually a pretty sweet life for a teen. But I was a natural saver, and in my late teens/early 20's I got really obsessed with personal finance books and read a ton of them plus got a subscription to Money and Kiplingers. I offered to PAY my 19 year old to read some and so far not biting. He has pretty bad money management skills despite me talking to him about this stuff for years now. I think personality has a lot to do with it. Yes, there are a lot of people who are financially illiterate. ANYTHING that helps them is a good thing, without question. Where I have such a problem with Ramsey is, first, that he teaches suboptimal information under the apparent belief that his "people" cannot handle better advice. If you truly want to help people, tell them both ways and why one is actually better, then let the person decide which they can actually do for themselves. Second, his investing advice is generally terrible, and it is made worse by sending people to his approved set of advisors to make money for himself and the advisors.* * My only experience with Ramsey is what I have read, so do not know for certain that this is true. It would fit with what I have read though. Yep, his Roth! Roth! Roth! drives me crazy, If people really wanted to dive into things, they could go down to Barnes and Noble and there are shelves of great personal finance books, but they want simple clear-cut instructions. After being on a lot of DR boards over the years, I've found it's pretty common for people to naturally get curious about learning more once they complete BS3. Those first three steps are the ones that get them back in control. They have a budget, are out of consumer debt and have an EF. At this point they're feeling more confident and often diverge from his advice.
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 21:05:00 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 21:05:00 GMT -5
This board seems to think the bottom 90% should live without any indulgences so they can put away every dime, no matter how small. Pretty bleak existence, I would prefer for people to earn an income to be able to go to Disney world or sports games and save for retirement, but that seems like the realm of top 5%. Let them eat cake. Disney and tickets to professional sports games are really upper middle class opportunities. Not small indulgences. Life when I was growing up was a lot different than people expect today. We had very few new clothes. Most were hand me downs from family and friends. My wardrobe was jeans with patches on the knees and shirts with patches on the elbows. Clothes without patches were reserved for church. We didn’t have a TV in the house. However, we were able to watch TV at friends houses once in a while. Four of us shared a bike. We didn’t have our own bedrooms. We three boys shared a room. I didn’t have a room to myself until after I graduated college. I don’t think I had a meal in a restaurant, not even McDonalds, until I was a teenager. Indulgences were things like half a popsicle once or twice over a summer. Dad was a teacher. As family finances went, we were a middle class family of the 60’s. So, today I find myself a 9.9er. Wondering how poor kids today have so many things we grew up without. If a trip to Disney is the yardstick by which you determine if a kids lives in poverty or not, in my day, today’s poor kid would have been rich beyond my ability to imagine. Good grief. My Grandmother was poor. She owned another house besides the one she lived in and she had renters living in it for many years, but she was still poor. When I was a young child and she would take me to work with her, she was cleaning house for women, for $30/day. But somehow, she always had money for what she needed and to help her children and grandchildren if they needed it. When my Madear died several years ago, I was at the funeral home with my Mom, my Aunt and her daughter, my first cousin, to make arrangements for her funeral and burial. When we left the first room I told my Aunt that I would help pay and asked what I needed to do. She gave me a sad smile and said “you know Madear handled her business”. My Grandmother had already paid for and provided money for all of that. Idk about when my Mom and Aunt were growing up, but by the time I came along, my cousins and I weren’t wearing clothes with patches. And when we did have popsicles, we weren’t all licking on the same Popsicle. My Grandmother only had a 4th grade education, but there is SO much I wish I’d learned from her. How to cook like her! How to have enough dinner to offer unexpected guests, but not waste food. How to live on such a limited income and be happy, have everything you need, and still have money to spare to go on road trips and money to help your children and grandchildren when there’s a need. I don’t know how she did any of that, and I really, really wish I’d learned it all when I could. Even in hindsight, my Grandmother was poor. But after reading your post and thinking about it all a little bit, I realize that the poverty you describe is more than anything I’ve experienced. I need to think about this some more. Thank you for sharing your story.
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tallguy
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 21:12:09 GMT -5
Post by tallguy on Oct 30, 2021 21:12:09 GMT -5
Yes, there are a lot of people who are financially illiterate. ANYTHING that helps them is a good thing, without question. Where I have such a problem with Ramsey is, first, that he teaches suboptimal information under the apparent belief that his "people" cannot handle better advice. If you truly want to help people, tell them both ways and why one is actually better, then let the person decide which they can actually do for themselves. Second, his investing advice is generally terrible, and it is made worse by sending people to his approved set of advisors to make money for himself and the advisors.* * My only experience with Ramsey is what I have read, so do not know for certain that this is true. It would fit with what I have read though. Yep, his Roth! Roth! Roth! drives me crazy, If people really wanted to dive into things, they could go down to Barnes and Noble and there are shelves of great personal finance books, but they want simple clear-cut instructions. After being on a lot of DR boards over the years, I've found it's pretty common for people to naturally get curious about learning more once they complete BS3. Those first three steps are the ones that get them back in control. They have a budget, are out of consumer debt and have an EF. At this point they're feeling more confident and often diverge from his advice. Yeah, but even his debt snowball thing is bad advice mathematically. He pretty much assumes that people are so emotionally and psychologically weak that they cannot handle getting out of debt without tricking themselves into these fake little "victories." If I were in that position and somebody tried to tell me that was the best way, I would be very tempted to shut their mouth myself.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Oct 30, 2021 21:25:31 GMT -5
Yep, his Roth! Roth! Roth! drives me crazy, If people really wanted to dive into things, they could go down to Barnes and Noble and there are shelves of great personal finance books, but they want simple clear-cut instructions. After being on a lot of DR boards over the years, I've found it's pretty common for people to naturally get curious about learning more once they complete BS3. Those first three steps are the ones that get them back in control. They have a budget, are out of consumer debt and have an EF. At this point they're feeling more confident and often diverge from his advice. Yeah, but even his debt snowball thing is bad advice mathematically. He pretty much assumes that people are so emotionally and psychologically weak that they cannot handle getting out of debt without tricking themselves into these fake little "victories." If I were in that position and somebody tried to tell me that was the best way, I would be very tempted to shut their mouth myself. Well, many, many people do need those little victories. And, like I stated above, debt snowballing (or avalanching, situation dependent) can be quite effective when you're looking at a half dozen to more than a dozen lines of open credit.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 30, 2021 21:30:12 GMT -5
Yep, his Roth! Roth! Roth! drives me crazy, If people really wanted to dive into things, they could go down to Barnes and Noble and there are shelves of great personal finance books, but they want simple clear-cut instructions. After being on a lot of DR boards over the years, I've found it's pretty common for people to naturally get curious about learning more once they complete BS3. Those first three steps are the ones that get them back in control. They have a budget, are out of consumer debt and have an EF. At this point they're feeling more confident and often diverge from his advice. Yeah, but even his debt snowball thing is bad advice mathematically. He pretty much assumes that people are so emotionally and psychologically weak that they cannot handle getting out of debt without tricking themselves into these fake little "victories." If I were in that position and somebody tried to tell me that was the best way, I would be very tempted to shut their mouth myself. But a lot of people do struggle with the psychological aspect so the snowball works better than the avalanche for them, you don't get that because you have financial discipline. You don't need the mind games to help you out. Personal finance is only partially math. Just like losing weight is only partially physiological.
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tallguy
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 21:47:25 GMT -5
Post by tallguy on Oct 30, 2021 21:47:25 GMT -5
(To both of you) But as I said earlier, teach them both ways. Let the individual figure out what they are capable of and whether they can do what is mathematically the better option. Don't assume they are so emotionally, psychologically, or intellectually weak that they are incapable of figuring out and doing what is actually better for them. IF DR is going to make money off of people for giving them information, at least give them the best information available. THAT'S my issue.
They might be called Baby Steps for a reason, but that doesn't mean you have to actually TREAT the people like babies.
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The 9-9
Oct 30, 2021 22:12:05 GMT -5
Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 30, 2021 22:12:05 GMT -5
Because he believes that this way works best for his audience. If they're more motivated with the quick fix of paying off the smaller debts first the whole interest rate thing is not really a big deal anyhow. I've seen people milking out the debt avalanche method forever because they have large high rate debts.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 30, 2021 22:40:17 GMT -5
I would argue that it is not within his area of expertise to presume what someone can or can't handle. I would also suggest that no matter what you have "seen" about people "milking out the debt avalanche method forever" they will always inevitably come out ahead and be paid off sooner if they can simply pay the same amount using that method as they would with the other. If they can't do that, then they are better off using the prescribed snowball method. Others would be better off using the other method. That should be their choice and their decision. They should not be prevented from hearing better information.
Tell me this: Let's imagine you were in that class and were told the truth up front, "I am going to teach you one way to get out of debt. It is not the best and fastest way to get out of debt, but I believe it is better for you because I don't think you can handle doing the other one so I won't share it with you." What would your reaction be? I hope it would be outrage.
And yes, it would likely only save a month or two of payments and maybe several hundred dollars in total, but wouldn't that be significant for this particular audience?
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 30, 2021 23:41:03 GMT -5
I would argue that it is not within his area of expertise to presume what someone can or can't handle. I would also suggest that no matter what you have "seen" about people "milking out the debt avalanche method forever" they will always inevitably come out ahead and be paid off sooner if they can simply pay the same amount using that method as they would with the other. If they can't do that, then they are better off using the prescribed snowball method. Others would be better off using the other method. That should be their choice and their decision. They should not be prevented from hearing better information. Tell me this: Let's imagine you were in that class and were told the truth up front, "I am going to teach you one way to get out of debt. It is not the best and fastest way to get out of debt, but I believe it is better for you because I don't think you can handle doing the other one so I won't share it with you." What would your reaction be? I hope it would be outrage. And yes, it would likely only save a month or two of payments and maybe several hundred dollars in total, but wouldn't that be significant for this particular audience? And there lies the rub. If the motivation is not as strong that's not going to happen. The key to DR is intensity. I really don't get the outrage towards one debt repayment philosophy that works for a lot of people? Nobody is being prevented from learning other information, I mean come on, you don't even have to go to a bookstore anymore just google "how to pay off my debts" and you'll get plenty of opinions besides Dave's. But if you go to Financial Peace you're going to get his take...and btw...he does talk about the debt avalanche method and why he doesn't endorse it, so it's not like he's trying to keep people in the dark. eta: and this thread has gotten totally derailed, so I think this is one of those agree to disagree things.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 31, 2021 1:23:17 GMT -5
Disney and tickets to professional sports games are really upper middle class opportunities. Not small indulgences. Life when I was growing up was a lot different than people expect today. We had very few new clothes. Most were hand me downs from family and friends. My wardrobe was jeans with patches on the knees and shirts with patches on the elbows. Clothes without patches were reserved for church. We didn’t have a TV in the house. However, we were able to watch TV at friends houses once in a while. Four of us shared a bike. We didn’t have our own bedrooms. We three boys shared a room. I didn’t have a room to myself until after I graduated college. I don’t think I had a meal in a restaurant, not even McDonalds, until I was a teenager. Indulgences were things like half a popsicle once or twice over a summer. Dad was a teacher. As family finances went, we were a middle class family of the 60’s. So, today I find myself a 9.9er. Wondering how poor kids today have so many things we grew up without. If a trip to Disney is the yardstick by which you determine if a kids lives in poverty or not, in my day, today’s poor kid would have been rich beyond my ability to imagine. Good grief. My Grandmother was poor. She owned another house besides the one she lived in and she had renters living in it for many years, but she was still poor. When I was a young child and she would take me to work with her, she was cleaning house for women, for $30/day. But somehow, she always had money for what she needed and to help her children and grandchildren if they needed it. When my Madear died several years ago, I was at the funeral home with my Mom, my Aunt and her daughter, my first cousin, to make arrangements for her funeral and burial. When we left the first room I told my Aunt that I would help pay and asked what I needed to do. She gave me a sad smile and said “you know Madear handled her business”. My Grandmother had already paid for and provided money for all of that. Idk about when my Mom and Aunt were growing up, but by the time I came along, my cousins and I weren’t wearing clothes with patches. And when we did have popsicles, we weren’t all licking on the same Popsicle. My Grandmother only had a 4th grade education, but there is SO much I wish I’d learned from her. How to cook like her! How to have enough dinner to offer unexpected guests, but not waste food. How to live on such a limited income and be happy, have everything you need, and still have money to spare to go on road trips and money to help your children and grandchildren when there’s a need. I don’t know how she did any of that, and I really, really wish I’d learned it all when I could. Even in hindsight, my Grandmother was poor. But after reading your post and thinking about it all a little bit, I realize that the poverty you describe is more than anything I’ve experienced. I need to think about this some more. Thank you for sharing your story. Pink, you seem to be misinterpreting what I wrote. My family wasn’t poor. We were middle class. Probably lower middle class, but still middle class. My comments were intended to point out how dramatically our definition of poor and poverty has changed in a single person’s lifetime. When I think of poverty, I think of not being able to afford adequate food, season appropriate clothing, or shelter. Not having the money for a Disney vacation isn’t, to me, living in poverty. I think Disney vacations and tickets to professional sports events are hallmarks of affluence. I wouldn’t consider your Grandmother to be poor, either. She owned two houses. Apparently free and clear. It sounds like she had the financial resources to live the life she chose and enough to spare that she could assist family members when she wished. It looks like your Grandmother chose a modest lifestyle, as was fairly common among children of the depression. But your comments don’t indicate that she lacked for food, clothing, or shelter. I don’t think frugal and poor are the same thing.
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Oct 31, 2021 2:20:42 GMT -5
(To both of you) But as I said earlier, teach them both ways. Let the individual figure out what they are capable of and whether they can do what is mathematically the better option. Don't assume they are so emotionally, psychologically, or intellectually weak that they are incapable of figuring out and doing what is actually better for them. IF DR is going to make money off of people for giving them information, at least give them the best information available. THAT'S my issue. They might be called Baby Steps for a reason, but that doesn't mean you have to actually TREAT the people like babies. But sometimes that's what people want, someone to "take them by the hand." They don't want to have to figure it out. That's DR's bread and butter, so he does it for them.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 31, 2021 6:17:12 GMT -5
(To both of you) But as I said earlier, teach them both ways. Let the individual figure out what they are capable of and whether they can do what is mathematically the better option. Don't assume they are so emotionally, psychologically, or intellectually weak that they are incapable of figuring out and doing what is actually better for them. IF DR is going to make money off of people for giving them information, at least give them the best information available. THAT'S my issue. They might be called Baby Steps for a reason, but that doesn't mean you have to actually TREAT the people like babies. But sometimes that's what people want, someone to "take them by the hand." They don't want to have to figure it out. That's DR's bread and butter, so he does it for them. What I don't like about DR is that he is dishonest with this. He doesn't say, "if you need extra help, my way will walk you through this by holding your hand". Instead, he claims, "my way is the only way, and everyone else is F-d". And then he proceeds to grift off the back end with his own advisors and agents.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Oct 31, 2021 8:21:51 GMT -5
I think it's also a matter of visual vs mathematical. Many, many people are not mathematically adept so avalanching doesn't work for them. Just as imagining long-term savings doesn't work when they're buried in debt. Just as imagining being in the 10% doesn't happen because it seems so unreachable.
But visually seeing one debt after another become $0 is very motivating. That's how I saw it while I tackled (over the course of a decade) 14 lines of credit, two vehicles, an HEL, and a mortgage.
For those in poverty, debt snowballing/avalanching is a moot point. They don't have credit cards. Or vehicle loans. Hell, many don't even have checking accounts.
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jerseygirl
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The 9-9
Oct 31, 2021 9:01:56 GMT -5
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Post by jerseygirl on Oct 31, 2021 9:01:56 GMT -5
I’ve listened to some DR podcasts on millionaires, one of his group also had a book on surveys of 1000?? Anyway most just lived a conservative life and saved. Biggest group were teachers But a million net worth isn’t ‘rich’ like most think but certainly allows a reasonable retirement.
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