Mardi Gras Audrey
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So well rounded, I'm pointless...
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Oct 31, 2021 9:20:32 GMT -5
I don’t know much about DR besides what I’ve read on this site and in the news. I understand his approach isn’t the best from a mathematical standpoint but I understand why he does it that way. You have to meet people where they are to help them. I have many relatives hat are still poor and I’ve tried to help them with some of the techniques learned on this board. A lot of them shut down when you start talking about investing and stuff like that. They see it as a huge hurdle they can’t overcome and just shut down. By starting small and showing them small wins (I paid this credit card off!), they get excited and see results. Then they feel more empowered to go further.
I am like that too. I need to lose weight. I thought I needed to lose like 90 pounds and it felt hopeless so I couldn’t even try. I went to the doctor and turns out I weight about 30 pounds less Thani thought (I never weighed myself st home). Now, I’m more motivated to do something. Needing to lose 60 lbs doesn’t seem as insurmountable as 90. I can see that same philosophy with finances. If you feel hopeless and like you will never get there, it is like there is no point to trying
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 11:14:40 GMT -5
I don't think anyone means one should have NO indulgences, we all have our hills to die on, but when it's one thing on top of another for decades, especially when it involves debt for these indulgences, don't complain about not being able to pay for your kid's college or having to work longer than you wanted to. .... I kinda cringe saying all that now, but it’s just the truth. I can’t be the only person in the world that was as clueless as I was about some things. ........ I'd have to say the same about myself. Luckily, I caught a suze orman pbs special, and my eyes were opened. I was living in poverty with 2 kids, but ever since then, I started trying to get ahead, I'd have to say that was 25 years ago now. Just paying bills and living was what I knew about before that. Saving and investing was something for when you had "extra" money - which of course there was never any extra. The pay yourself first is the most important lesson to ever learn in finances, I think.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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The 9-9
Oct 31, 2021 11:28:49 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 11:28:49 GMT -5
The thing is, what is just common sense for most of the people on these boards, a lot of people honestly don’t “get”. And this is why I can't get on board with bashing Dave Ramsey. While most on this board have long since outgrown his advice, I think a LOT of people need his simplistic Baby Steps and obnoxious "WAKE THE HELL UP!" attitude to get on the right track. I wasn't taught anything about money management growing up. Heck, I basically was on my own from age 12 on. I mean, I had a house to stay in, and frozen pizzas in the fridge, but no parent around to speak of for sometimes a couple weeks at a time. It was actually a pretty sweet life for a teen. But I was a natural saver, and in my late teens/early 20's I got really obsessed with personal finance books and read a ton of them plus got a subscription to Money and Kiplingers. I offered to PAY my 19 year old to read some and so far not biting. He has pretty bad money management skills despite me talking to him about this stuff for years now. I think personality has a lot to do with it.could be me - I was more of a easy come easy go type. Money meant nothing to me, I saw myself as a musician and writer and scholar - I just wanted to have a nice bed to snuggle in at night, a nice bathtub and plenty of hot water, and a good meal or two a day and do my thing. parenthood was unexpected. and sent me down a different path.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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The 9-9
Oct 31, 2021 11:40:02 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 11:40:02 GMT -5
OK. I don't disagree that some amount of the 90% can get ahead... but really how MANY of the 90% can actually move up into the 10% with a little bit of effort? Well, technically none right? If half of the 90% move into the 10% it's not the 10% anymore. The bar just keeps moving up. well, I guess technically speaking the sucessful of the 90% would be displacing some of the less successsful of the 9.9. Maybe the displaced 9.9ers fell on hard times, or maybe the minimum entry fee to the 9.9 moves from 1.2 m to 1.5 or something. In that case, a 90% with 1.2 million is still doing pretty good, the lower 9.9 with 1.5 is just doing a bit better. I'm sure there is a lot of churn around these borders in terms of who is making the cut this months vs that. Job loss, smaller inheritance, people jumping up or falling below on the percentil ranking. Then again - it might change with every move of the stock market! Those light on real estate edge in when the market jumps, those heavy on real estate displace those people when the market tanks. which goes to my other point about the discription of the 9.9, their habits, etc. Seems like a very unstable demographic to try to capture in a meaningful way.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 11:51:42 GMT -5
Disney and tickets to professional sports games are really upper middle class opportunities. Not small indulgences. Life when I was growing up was a lot different than people expect today. We had very few new clothes. Most were hand me downs from family and friends. My wardrobe was jeans with patches on the knees and shirts with patches on the elbows. Clothes without patches were reserved for church. We didn’t have a TV in the house. However, we were able to watch TV at friends houses once in a while. Four of us shared a bike. We didn’t have our own bedrooms. We three boys shared a room. I didn’t have a room to myself until after I graduated college. I don’t think I had a meal in a restaurant, not even McDonalds, until I was a teenager. Indulgences were things like half a popsicle once or twice over a summer. Dad was a teacher. As family finances went, we were a middle class family of the 60’s. So, today I find myself a 9.9er. Wondering how poor kids today have so many things we grew up without. If a trip to Disney is the yardstick by which you determine if a kids lives in poverty or not, in my day, today’s poor kid would have been rich beyond my ability to imagine. Good grief. My Grandmother was poor. She owned another house besides the one she lived in and she had renters living in it for many years, but she was still poor. When I was a young child and she would take me to work with her, she was cleaning house for women, for $30/day. But somehow, she always had money for what she needed and to help her children and grandchildren if they needed it. When my Madear died several years ago, I was at the funeral home with my Mom, my Aunt and her daughter, my first cousin, to make arrangements for her funeral and burial. When we left the first room I told my Aunt that I would help pay and asked what I needed to do. She gave me a sad smile and said “you know Madear handled her business”. My Grandmother had already paid for and provided money for all of that. Idk about when my Mom and Aunt were growing up, but by the time I came along, my cousins and I weren’t wearing clothes with patches. And when we did have popsicles, we weren’t all licking on the same Popsicle. My Grandmother only had a 4th grade education, but there is SO much I wish I’d learned from her. How to cook like her! How to have enough dinner to offer unexpected guests, but not waste food. How to live on such a limited income and be happy, have everything you need, and still have money to spare to go on road trips and money to help your children and grandchildren when there’s a need. I don’t know how she did any of that, and I really, really wish I’d learned it all when I could. Even in hindsight, my Grandmother was poor. But after reading your post and thinking about it all a little bit, I realize that the poverty you describe is more than anything I’ve experienced. I need to think about this some more. Thank you for sharing your story. I grew up petty poor in the 60s/70s. I remember a christmas with almost no presents. Like my big present was a really cheap robe that I still remember how uncomfortable is was, some kind of scratchy polyester. It started out long sleeved and I remember wearing it till it was threadbard and the sleeves only came to my elbows. I still got a popsicle on a somewhat regular basis. I think tskeeter needs to think a little bit more about claiming his family was middle class. If they were, they were doing it wrong, which is a possibility. Especially if parents were raised in the depression.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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The 9-9
Oct 31, 2021 12:05:49 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 12:05:49 GMT -5
(To both of you) But as I said earlier, teach them both ways. Let the individual figure out what they are capable of and whether they can do what is mathematically the better option. Don't assume they are so emotionally, psychologically, or intellectually weak that they are incapable of figuring out and doing what is actually better for them. IF DR is going to make money off of people for giving them information, at least give them the best information available. THAT'S my issue. They might be called Baby Steps for a reason, but that doesn't mean you have to actually TREAT the people like babies. could we not then assume that these capable people are able to find and access information on the internet and have chosen the DR route? maybe they've tried other ways and it hasn't worked for them? maybe they need the cultlike hoard for support?
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tallguy
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Oct 31, 2021 12:27:31 GMT -5
Post by tallguy on Oct 31, 2021 12:27:31 GMT -5
(To both of you) But as I said earlier, teach them both ways. Let the individual figure out what they are capable of and whether they can do what is mathematically the better option. Don't assume they are so emotionally, psychologically, or intellectually weak that they are incapable of figuring out and doing what is actually better for them. IF DR is going to make money off of people for giving them information, at least give them the best information available. THAT'S my issue. They might be called Baby Steps for a reason, but that doesn't mean you have to actually TREAT the people like babies. could we not then assume that these capable people are able to find and access information on the internet and have chosen the DR route? maybe they've tried other ways and it hasn't worked for them? maybe they need the cultlike hoard for support? I would guess that anyone with the ability and drive to find and work on their own answers that way is not going to end up at a Dave Ramsey seminar. Regardless, what is really the problem with telling people both approaches? "People learn and process information and create paths of action differently. This approach works better for people who make their decisions based on emotion. This approach works better for people who make decisions based on reason. They both work, but this one is better mathematically. You should decide which works better for you, but the important thing is to choose one and work it religiously. Either one will get you where you need to go, as long as you actually do it." I would have no problem with that part of his program if he actually showed those people some respect rather than dismissing their abilities so cavalierly. How is that even in question?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Oct 31, 2021 13:19:33 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 13:19:33 GMT -5
could we not then assume that these capable people are able to find and access information on the internet and have chosen the DR route? maybe they've tried other ways and it hasn't worked for them? maybe they need the cultlike hoard for support? I would guess that anyone with the ability and drive to find and work on their own answers that way is not going to end up at a Dave Ramsey seminar. Regardless, what is really the problem with telling people both approaches? "People learn and process information and create paths of action differently. This approach works better for people who make their decisions based on emotion. This approach works better for people who make decisions based on reason. They both work, but this one is better mathematically. You should decide which works better for you, but the important thing is to choose one and work it religiously. Either one will get you where you need to go, as long as you actually do it." I would have no problem with that part of his program if he actually showed those people some respect rather than dismissing their abilities so cavalierly. How is that even in question? MPL already said he presents the other side. And then - Why do we even care?
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Oct 31, 2021 14:56:54 GMT -5
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Oct 31, 2021 14:56:54 GMT -5
could we not then assume that these capable people are able to find and access information on the internet and have chosen the DR route? maybe they've tried other ways and it hasn't worked for them? maybe they need the cultlike hoard for support? I would guess that anyone with the ability and drive to find and work on their own answers that way is not going to end up at a Dave Ramsey seminar. Regardless, what is really the problem with telling people both approaches? "People learn and process information and create paths of action differently. This approach works better for people who make their decisions based on emotion. This approach works better for people who make decisions based on reason. They both work, but this one is better mathematically. You should decide which works better for you, but the important thing is to choose one and work it religiously. Either one will get you where you need to go, as long as you actually do it." I would have no problem with that part of his program if he actually showed those people some respect rather than dismissing their abilities so cavalierly. How is that even in question? You’re counting on people to have enough self reflection to know how they process things and what is better for themselves. A lot of people don’t have that t kind of self awareness. It also sounds a bit condescending to say “this one mathematically makes sense but if u need the emotional way, here’s that”,... most people aren’t going to want to pick that even if they should because it comes off like “people that don’t understand math can go with this”. Then they end up failing completely
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Oct 31, 2021 15:06:41 GMT -5
I have been watching Dave Ramsey boards and don't live like his followers. His advice is interesting especially paying off the mortgage and getting 15 year mortgages. I would never do that, I got a new 30 year at 72 but it is 2.99%. Paying it off with money from my ROTH would be foolish. I might refinance again at 85 or so with cash out and still do 30 more years. But for his followers it may not be a bad idea, they don't understand or trust investing, investing is scary. A safe 3% return paying off a mortgage is better than money in the bank. Money in the bank can be used for vacations, emergencies or a stupid purchase like a summer home. Sending an extra thousand a month to the mortgage means at retirement you don't have a mortgage payment, depending on ages it could be before the kids are in college. So not really bad and if you do that while having an emergency fund and college fund and investing 15% in mutual funds you might be better off than most retired people.
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Deleted
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Oct 31, 2021 16:05:45 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 16:05:45 GMT -5
.... I kinda cringe saying all that now, but it’s just the truth. I can’t be the only person in the world that was as clueless as I was about some things. ........ I'd have to say the same about myself. Luckily, I caught a suze orman pbs special, and my eyes were opened. I was living in poverty with 2 kids, but ever since then, I started trying to get ahead, I'd have to say that was 25 years ago now. Just paying bills and living was what I knew about before that. Saving and investing was something for when you had "extra" money - which of course there was never any extra. The pay yourself first is the most important lesson to ever learn in finances, I think. Right. But I knew there had to be a different way. My Aunt and Uncle went without income for a year, because of some issues with my Uncle’s job. They ended up letting him retire early after that year. I knew the only way they were able to go without income for a whole year, was that they had done some things prior. When I was really trying to figure stuff out, I asked my Aunt to please explain to me what they had done over the years to get themselves to the point that they could still make it for a year with no income, without getting into dollars and cents (I really wanted her to know I wasn’t trying to get in their business, I was trying to learn). She didn’t really know how to answer me. She tried, but it seemed like my question confused her lol. I think it was just so sensible and common sense to her, that my question didn’t even really make sense to her. And because I had no idea, I couldn’t figure out better questions to ask.
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teen persuasion
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Oct 31, 2021 16:19:41 GMT -5
Post by teen persuasion on Oct 31, 2021 16:19:41 GMT -5
This board seems to think the bottom 90% should live without any indulgences so they can put away every dime, no matter how small. Pretty bleak existence, I would prefer for people to earn an income to be able to go to Disney world or sports games and save for retirement, but that seems like the realm of top 5%. Let them eat cake. prefer for people to earn an income to be able to go to Disney world or sports games and save for retirement
I would also prefer people earned enough to do both (the and part above): save for retirement AND spend on something meaningful to them. But I noticed the or part above: go to Disney, OR sports games. That's the choices I was talking about - can have anything, but not everything. Again, the OP linked article was measuring net worth, not income. If you spend everything you earn, no matter how large your income, your net worth is zero. If you spend more than you earn, your net worth goes negative, and servicing your debt takes more of your income (leaving less to spend on your desires over time). But that reverses if you can just spend *somewhat* less and save and invest that difference consistently over time - growing your net worth. The advantage of growing your net worth over time, is that gradually your expenses decrease as debts are paid off - when you pay off student loans, you free up some of your income for either increased savings or increased desired spending (or a balanced mix of both). And growing investments can throw off dividends - more income! Bigger issue: at lower incomes, using tax deferred accounts like 401k accounts can save much more, increasing the bang for your buck when saving. First, you save your top tax bracket (fed + state) on all pre-tax contributions. Then you reverse the phaseout rates on refundable credits like EITC (fed + state if available). Reducing AGI might get you into Retirement Saver's credit range, or drop you into a better rate band (10% to 20% to 50%). And no one should skip trapping any employer matches on 401k contributions. I view losing all of these benefits (by not saving) as penny-wise, pound-foolish.
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tallguy
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Oct 31, 2021 16:48:54 GMT -5
Post by tallguy on Oct 31, 2021 16:48:54 GMT -5
To all the Dave Ramsey defenders here, I honestly don't care what advice someone uses to get out of debt, as long as they do it. My entire point is that those who can handle better advice should be given better advice. That's it. It is profoundly disrespectful to decide for them that they cannot handle it. The secondary point which I am not even addressing here is that he is happy to use their lack of knowledge to make money off of them. They have much better options than to be shuffled off to his group of advisors, but he is pushing them toward those who he makes money from. That is not really in the "clients'" best interests. And does anybody think his investing advice is good? I have helped a number of people in the past, and am taking on another person now. I am always clear up front that I give information, not advice, and that everyone should learn as much as they can for him/herself because nobody will ever care as much about their money as they will. In any case, however, I always give them the best information available to me and I never charge them or try to in any way make any money or receive any benefit off of them. I'd guess that puts me two up on Dave Ramsey.... Here's the truth, as far as I have seen: If we created a spectrum from the completely financially illiterate to the very knowledgeable and well-informed, the bottom 25% will certainly benefit at least some from DR programs and teachings. The next 25% would do better to ignore a good percentage of it, as long as they were told or could figure out which parts to ignore. The top half will laugh at how poor much of the advice (beyond the most simplistic parts) actually is. But hey, if y'all want to treat DR attendees as the financial equivalent of Trump supporters, where it's okay if they are given suboptimal or wrong information, convinced to believe it, and then led off to be taken advantage of, have fun. I'm out on that, though. I am guessing that was meant to be "horde" (otherwise I have NO idea), but the "cult-like" certainly ties in with Trump support too, doesn't it? Pretty sure now that this discussion has LONG since run its course.
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tskeeter
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Oct 31, 2021 17:01:48 GMT -5
Post by tskeeter on Oct 31, 2021 17:01:48 GMT -5
Good grief. My Grandmother was poor. She owned another house besides the one she lived in and she had renters living in it for many years, but she was still poor. When I was a young child and she would take me to work with her, she was cleaning house for women, for $30/day. But somehow, she always had money for what she needed and to help her children and grandchildren if they needed it. When my Madear died several years ago, I was at the funeral home with my Mom, my Aunt and her daughter, my first cousin, to make arrangements for her funeral and burial. When we left the first room I told my Aunt that I would help pay and asked what I needed to do. She gave me a sad smile and said “you know Madear handled her business”. My Grandmother had already paid for and provided money for all of that. Idk about when my Mom and Aunt were growing up, but by the time I came along, my cousins and I weren’t wearing clothes with patches. And when we did have popsicles, we weren’t all licking on the same Popsicle. My Grandmother only had a 4th grade education, but there is SO much I wish I’d learned from her. How to cook like her! How to have enough dinner to offer unexpected guests, but not waste food. How to live on such a limited income and be happy, have everything you need, and still have money to spare to go on road trips and money to help your children and grandchildren when there’s a need. I don’t know how she did any of that, and I really, really wish I’d learned it all when I could. Even in hindsight, my Grandmother was poor. But after reading your post and thinking about it all a little bit, I realize that the poverty you describe is more than anything I’ve experienced. I need to think about this some more. Thank you for sharing your story. I grew up petty poor in the 60s/70s. I remember a christmas with almost no presents. Like my big present was a really cheap robe that I still remember how uncomfortable is was, some kind of scratchy polyester. It started out long sleeved and I remember wearing it till it was threadbard and the sleeves only came to my elbows. I still got a popsicle on a somewhat regular basis. I think tskeeter needs to think a little bit more about claiming his family was middle class. If they were, they were doing it wrong, which is a possibility. Especially if parents were raised in the depression. Rukh, did you grow up in a urban area? Is it possible that, in addition to a decade or so age difference, our definition of poverty/middle class is colored by where we grew up? I grew up in small town America. Mostly in western Minnesota farming communities with populations of less than 1,500. My childhood experiences were pretty typical for kids in rural areas.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Oct 31, 2021 17:02:34 GMT -5
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 31, 2021 17:02:34 GMT -5
I think I'm pretty intelligent and able to think for myself when it comes to financial issues yet I have attended FPU...twice...and feel I benefited a lot from it. It's not for everyone, and a lot...I'd venture to say MOST of DR listeners are not going on to use his investment advisors or cutting up their rewards credit cards.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Oct 31, 2021 17:06:47 GMT -5
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 31, 2021 17:06:47 GMT -5
I grew up petty poor in the 60s/70s. I remember a christmas with almost no presents. Like my big present was a really cheap robe that I still remember how uncomfortable is was, some kind of scratchy polyester. It started out long sleeved and I remember wearing it till it was threadbard and the sleeves only came to my elbows. I still got a popsicle on a somewhat regular basis. I think tskeeter needs to think a little bit more about claiming his family was middle class. If they were, they were doing it wrong, which is a possibility. Especially if parents were raised in the depression. Rukh, did you grow up in a urban area? Is it possible that, in addition to a decade or so age difference, our definition of poverty/middle class is colored by where we grew up? I grew up in small town America. Mostly in western Minnesota farming communities with populations of less than 1,500. My childhood experiences were pretty typical for kids in rural areas. Yep. Exact same thing only Eastern MN. 900 square foot 2 bedroom house with 1 car garage. I knew nobody that went to Disney. It seems so different now. Everyone seems to have so much more.
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Deleted
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Oct 31, 2021 17:32:14 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 17:32:14 GMT -5
Good grief. My Grandmother was poor. She owned another house besides the one she lived in and she had renters living in it for many years, but she was still poor. When I was a young child and she would take me to work with her, she was cleaning house for women, for $30/day. But somehow, she always had money for what she needed and to help her children and grandchildren if they needed it. When my Madear died several years ago, I was at the funeral home with my Mom, my Aunt and her daughter, my first cousin, to make arrangements for her funeral and burial. When we left the first room I told my Aunt that I would help pay and asked what I needed to do. She gave me a sad smile and said “you know Madear handled her business”. My Grandmother had already paid for and provided money for all of that. Idk about when my Mom and Aunt were growing up, but by the time I came along, my cousins and I weren’t wearing clothes with patches. And when we did have popsicles, we weren’t all licking on the same Popsicle. My Grandmother only had a 4th grade education, but there is SO much I wish I’d learned from her. How to cook like her! How to have enough dinner to offer unexpected guests, but not waste food. How to live on such a limited income and be happy, have everything you need, and still have money to spare to go on road trips and money to help your children and grandchildren when there’s a need. I don’t know how she did any of that, and I really, really wish I’d learned it all when I could. Even in hindsight, my Grandmother was poor. But after reading your post and thinking about it all a little bit, I realize that the poverty you describe is more than anything I’ve experienced. I need to think about this some more. Thank you for sharing your story. Pink, you seem to be misinterpreting what I wrote. My family wasn’t poor. We were middle class. Probably lower middle class, but still middle class. My comments were intended to point out how dramatically our definition of poor and poverty has changed in a single person’s lifetime. When I think of poverty, I think of not being able to afford adequate food, season appropriate clothing, or shelter. Not having the money for a Disney vacation isn’t, to me, living in poverty. I think Disney vacations and tickets to professional sports events are hallmarks of affluence. I wouldn’t consider your Grandmother to be poor, either. She owned two houses. Apparently free and clear. It sounds like she had the financial resources to live the life she chose and enough to spare that she could assist family members when she wished. It looks like your Grandmother chose a modest lifestyle, as was fairly common among children of the depression. But your comments don’t indicate that she lacked for food, clothing, or shelter. I don’t think frugal and poor are the same thing. I’ve been thinking about this all day, since I read it this morning at work. I think you saying my Grandmother wasn’t poor because she owned 2 houses is kind of what this thread is about. I know it’s often the case, but NOT always…… that poor people don’t have shelter, food or clothing.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Oct 31, 2021 17:45:08 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 17:45:08 GMT -5
To all the Dave Ramsey defenders here, I honestly don't care what advice someone uses to get out of debt, as long as they do it. My entire point is that those who can handle better advice should be given better advice. That's it. It is profoundly disrespectful to decide for them that they cannot handle it. The secondary point which I am not even addressing here is that he is happy to use their lack of knowledge to make money off of them. They have much better options than to be shuffled off to his group of advisors, but he is pushing them toward those who he makes money from. That is not really in the "clients'" best interests. And does anybody think his investing advice is good? I have helped a number of people in the past, and am taking on another person now. I am always clear up front that I give information, not advice, and that everyone should learn as much as they can for him/herself because nobody will ever care as much about their money as they will. In any case, however, I always give them the best information available to me and I never charge them or try to in any way make any money or receive any benefit off of them. I'd guess that puts me two up on Dave Ramsey.... Here's the truth, as far as I have seen: If we created a spectrum from the completely financially illiterate to the very knowledgeable and well-informed, the bottom 25% will certainly benefit at least some from DR programs and teachings. The next 25% would do better to ignore a good percentage of it, as long as they were told or could figure out which parts to ignore. The top half will laugh at how poor much of the advice (beyond the most simplistic parts) actually is. But hey, if y'all want to treat DR attendees as the financial equivalent of Trump supporters, where it's okay if they are given suboptimal or wrong information, convinced to believe it, and then led off to be taken advantage of, have fun. I'm out on that, though. I am guessing that was meant to be "horde" (otherwise I have NO idea), but the "cult-like" certainly ties in with Trump support too, doesn't it? Pretty sure now that this discussion has LONG since run its course. oh so we're down to homophone spelling policing...so....sure....
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Oct 31, 2021 17:56:27 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 17:56:27 GMT -5
I grew up petty poor in the 60s/70s. I remember a christmas with almost no presents. Like my big present was a really cheap robe that I still remember how uncomfortable is was, some kind of scratchy polyester. It started out long sleeved and I remember wearing it till it was threadbard and the sleeves only came to my elbows. I still got a popsicle on a somewhat regular basis. I think tskeeter needs to think a little bit more about claiming his family was middle class. If they were, they were doing it wrong, which is a possibility. Especially if parents were raised in the depression. Rukh, did you grow up in a urban area? Is it possible that, in addition to a decade or so age difference, our definition of poverty/middle class is colored by where we grew up? I grew up in small town America. Mostly in western Minnesota farming communities with populations of less than 1,500. My childhood experiences were pretty typical for kids in rural areas. I was in chicago, living in a 3rd story walkup in an apartment complex with like 24 or so units. parents finally bought a house when I was 10 in early 70's. but yeah - so what is middle class? we had clothes without patches, but they were from a thrift store. I remember my mother always darning my dad's socks, I can't imagine anyone darning socks these days. I remember being hungry, and alone, and grabbing raw meat out of the fridge to eat. even pork. still wonder if i've got worms..... Might be we were both poor?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Oct 31, 2021 18:11:16 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 18:11:16 GMT -5
Pink, you seem to be misinterpreting what I wrote. My family wasn’t poor. We were middle class. Probably lower middle class, but still middle class. My comments were intended to point out how dramatically our definition of poor and poverty has changed in a single person’s lifetime. When I think of poverty, I think of not being able to afford adequate food, season appropriate clothing, or shelter. Not having the money for a Disney vacation isn’t, to me, living in poverty. I think Disney vacations and tickets to professional sports events are hallmarks of affluence. I wouldn’t consider your Grandmother to be poor, either. She owned two houses. Apparently free and clear. It sounds like she had the financial resources to live the life she chose and enough to spare that she could assist family members when she wished. It looks like your Grandmother chose a modest lifestyle, as was fairly common among children of the depression. But your comments don’t indicate that she lacked for food, clothing, or shelter. I don’t think frugal and poor are the same thing. I’ve been thinking about this all day, since I read it this morning at work. I think you saying my Grandmother wasn’t poor because she owned 2 houses is kind of what this thread is about. I know it’s often the case, but NOT always…… that poor people don’t have shelter, food or clothing. I think this is a good point. If you have shelter, food, and clothing many people think you have to be middle class. maybe we were lower lower middle class or something? upper upper lower class? Seems strange but I felt deprived, everything was scarce, getting a candy bar was a big deal. we never got medical or dental care unless it was an emergency/visible cavity. Other families seems to have it easier than we did, nicer things, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 19:03:58 GMT -5
Some random observations on all these posts- just read through them after checking into a hotel in KY on my way home: Yes, it IS a lot easier to spend wisely and to invest when it's just what your parents did. Much harder when you have to figure it out on your own. I'm not sure if financial literacy classes in school would help or not. They'd have to be hands-on simulations (make your choices and see the consequences) rather than a lot of rules in a textbook. Behavioral economics helps explain why people sometimes behave irrationally and DR's snowball method is a good example. We all know people who are on a quest to pay off their mortgage before they retire. I'm like cronewitch- I have a 3% mortgage. With my investments averaging 6% returns over the last 10 or so years, why the heck would I pay it off? But, it makes some people sleep better at night. Their choice. If paying off the cards with the smallest balance makes you feel like you've accomplished something and motivates you to keep going, then it was a good strategy. On luxuries: unless you're in the 1% (and maybe even then) you have to set priorities. If you're living on a modest income, maybe you CAN have fancy manicures, tattoos, a new Coach bag every season or an annual Caribbean cruise but don't get ALL of them and tell me you can't save. The first trip I took to Europe, I set a goal of saving twice what it would cost. That motivated me to save faster and when I cane home it was all paid for and I still had money in savings. And when I was a kid I ALWAYS got only half a Popsicle. Once a cousin bought me a double one at a family reunion and when my brother saw it he put up a fuss. Dad took mine, split it in half and gave half to my brother. I knew better than to object. Funny what you remember from 60 years ago.
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bookkeeper
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Post by bookkeeper on Oct 31, 2021 19:39:18 GMT -5
Rukh, did you grow up in a urban area? Is it possible that, in addition to a decade or so age difference, our definition of poverty/middle class is colored by where we grew up? I grew up in small town America. Mostly in western Minnesota farming communities with populations of less than 1,500. My childhood experiences were pretty typical for kids in rural areas. Yep. Exact same thing only Eastern MN. 900 square foot 2 bedroom house with 1 car garage. I knew nobody that went to Disney. It seems so different now. Everyone seems to have so much more. My brother and I were talking about this. Growing up in the 1970's was very different because 1. families had more kids and 2. credit was hard to come by. Nobody had much extra money. If you didn't have cash to pay for it, you couldn't have it. Very straightforward. Credit cards really weren't a thing for most people until the 1980's. Employers had their choice of baby boomers to pick from. Local people worked the packing plants, instead of immigrants. Most larger towns in the midwest and plains states had a manufacturing plant that produced a locally desired product. Many people were happy to live in their hometown and work at the plant. Goods used to cost more. Things were made in America by union employees and were expensive to buy new. Used goods were not as readily available as today. Communication was difficult. Long distance phone charges were expensive and there was no Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace to source what your family needed. Easy credit has changed the game. I went to school with kids who worked the lunchroom dishwasher during study hall because they couldn't pay for school lunch. Today we don't want students to be singled out for negative lunch accounts. Of all the things we spend tax dollars on, school lunch is a pretty good value. This post is rambling a bit, but my point is, that everyone seems to have more because goods are cheaper and credit ( and debt ) is easy to come by.
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Lizard Queen
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Oct 31, 2021 19:55:47 GMT -5
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 31, 2021 19:55:47 GMT -5
Wait a minute: those double popsicles were made to be broken apart. That's why there were 2 sticks, and it narrowed in the middle. I never even wanted more than one side.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Oct 31, 2021 20:25:51 GMT -5
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 31, 2021 20:25:51 GMT -5
Wait a minute: those double popsicles were made to be broken apart. That's why there were 2 sticks, and it narrowed in the middle. I never even wanted more than one side. rich kid!
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Lizard Queen
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Oct 31, 2021 21:15:53 GMT -5
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 31, 2021 21:15:53 GMT -5
Wait a minute: those double popsicles were made to be broken apart. That's why there were 2 sticks, and it narrowed in the middle. I never even wanted more than one side. rich kid! Huh?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 31, 2021 22:19:39 GMT -5
Parents, in laws, and sister-in-law are likely in the 9.9.. Us and my brother our on the verge. Dave Ramsey is appropriate for some in the same way that TurboTax and H&R Block are appropriate for someone with one W2, no investments, and no dependents. Some are not good at math, and many are afraid of math and try to avoid doing it. I think those that have a good understanding of it, will be able to tell right away that DR’s process isn’t the most optimal. Am I not supposed to be using turbo tax?
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Oct 31, 2021 22:43:47 GMT -5
Pink, you seem to be misinterpreting what I wrote. My family wasn’t poor. We were middle class. Probably lower middle class, but still middle class. My comments were intended to point out how dramatically our definition of poor and poverty has changed in a single person’s lifetime. When I think of poverty, I think of not being able to afford adequate food, season appropriate clothing, or shelter. Not having the money for a Disney vacation isn’t, to me, living in poverty. I think Disney vacations and tickets to professional sports events are hallmarks of affluence. I wouldn’t consider your Grandmother to be poor, either. She owned two houses. Apparently free and clear. It sounds like she had the financial resources to live the life she chose and enough to spare that she could assist family members when she wished. It looks like your Grandmother chose a modest lifestyle, as was fairly common among children of the depression. But your comments don’t indicate that she lacked for food, clothing, or shelter. I don’t think frugal and poor are the same thing. I’ve been thinking about this all day, since I read it this morning at work. I think you saying my Grandmother wasn’t poor because she owned 2 houses is kind of what this thread is about. I know it’s often the case, but NOT always…… that poor people don’t have shelter, food or clothing. I'm thinking it's because she had not one, but 2 houses. Who has a spare house? Poor folks would be lucky to have one.
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Oct 31, 2021 22:46:11 GMT -5
Parents, in laws, and sister-in-law are likely in the 9.9.. Us and my brother our on the verge. Dave Ramsey is appropriate for some in the same way that TurboTax and H&R Block are appropriate for someone with one W2, no investments, and no dependents. Some are not good at math, and many are afraid of math and try to avoid doing it. I think those that have a good understanding of it, will be able to tell right away that DR’s process isn’t the most optimal. Am I not supposed to be using turbo tax? I wondered that, too. H&R Block works great for multiple W2s, investments and dependents.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Oct 31, 2021 23:38:46 GMT -5
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Oct 31, 2021 23:38:46 GMT -5
Am I not supposed to be using turbo tax? I wondered that, too. H&R Block works great for multiple W2s, investments and dependents. I think what he was getting at is if you just have a super simple return that only takes a few lines of the 1040, it doesn't really make sense to pay $40 or $50 or whatever it is for TurboTax these days when you could do the IRS fillable forms for free. But, TurboTax is often free for the really simple returns anyhow. I've used it for the past several years for mine and both kids without having to pay. I remember back in the old days doing 1040 EZs for people at work over lunch break for $10/pop. Some people still didn't trust that I could get them all the tax breaks they had coming (one W2 no dependents filings we're talking here) and paid H&R Block an arm and a leg instead.
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CCL
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Nov 1, 2021 0:05:13 GMT -5
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Post by CCL on Nov 1, 2021 0:05:13 GMT -5
Hmmm... I thought he was saying if you had anything but the simplest return you wouldn't be able to figure it out yourself using the software. You would have to pay someone who actually knew what they were doing. Maybe I need to go to bed now? I'm getting confused lol.
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